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Talk:Lisbon

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Revision as of 17:49, 15 April 2012 by LtPowers (Talk | contribs)

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ToDo

Please help us complete the article if you know any of the following:

  • Via Verde: how can a traveler become a subcriber? Is it practically feasible for a foreign tourist--either for a rented car or for a personal car brought from abroad? --DenisYurkin 14:24, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
  • The Gulbenkian Museum: is the museum gardens ("worth a visit in and of themselves") open for everyone, without a museum admission fee? --DenisYurkin 14:48, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
  • GetAround:7 Colinas: is it possible to return a used card, and get back a 0.50EUR "deposit"? --DenisYurkin 15:17, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
  • GetAround:Finding your way with Carris map ("...try to locate the nearest Carris bus or tram stop. Most of these stops (not all) have a very good map of the city...") [1]: a photo of such a map would definitely help to understand what kind of map is meant here, how does it look and where exactly on a transit stop to look for it. --DenisYurkin 15:24, 18 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Why Lisbon can't be featured as Destination of the month (per Burmesedays 19:55, 14 December 2009 (EST)):
    • Understand section is thin. Certainly needs a history sub-section and generally to tell us much more about the city.
    • Do section is tiny - there must be more - theatres, cinemas, sport?
    • Drink only has 3 listings.
    • Get out is full of red links.

gambling centre

"Europe's gambling centre" - says who? yes, there are two big casinos, but since when does that make any city a "gambling centre" - where's the source of that?

OK, let's be honest: a list of related readings containing 30 books with synopses is a bit too long for a humble travel guide, isn't it? Rmx 18:19, 16 Jan 2006 (EST)

On a second look, I've noticed that most of it is copyrighted stuff from publishers, online stores and Wikipedia. Worse yet: it's already been copied by other sites on account of WikiTravel's Creative Commons license! I'm deleting the whole list right away. Rmx 18:28, 16 Jan 2006 (EST)

Get Around

Corrected the info regarding the 7 Colinas bus/subway ticket. It might need some english/pricing corrections. cael 15:24, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Removed external links

Some useful links were placed on the article but we don't use this section any more. Please feel free to re-insert them in the article's text where relevant or keep them on this page.

Photography

Travel guides

-- Ricardo (Rmx) 08:20, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

Article status

Today an anonymous user changed the article status from outline to guide. The Lisbon article is far from being considered a complete guide. I thought about rating it as usable instead, but even the sleep and eat sections are still far from complete, so I guess we will have to stick to outline status for a while. -- Ricardo (Rmx) 16:21, 20 November 2006 (EST)

Reply: It just seemed odd to me that such a lengthy, detailed article would retain "outline" status. Granted, the "Eat" and "Sleep" sections need work; but they do contain enough information to get a traveler headed in the right direction. The rest of the article is really quite detailed, and more than enough for a competent traveler to make do with. Perhaps "Guide" was a bit much, but this is definitely a usable article. 20 Nov. 16:31.

Do a little Geography homework?

Changed the parenthetical under "Stay Safe" that decided Algarve was the far northern coast of Portugal and the hub for Moroccan hash importing. Algarve is to the south. I don't personally know about the hash import/export business, so I won't say anything else about where pot comes or goes out of the country.

Subtropical climate

Come on, stop with that crazy idea of subtropical climate. Lisbon is a bit northwards than Athens, San Francisco, or Toquio. It's on a higher latitude (farther away from the tropics) than Melbourne, Santiago del Chile or Buenos Aires. It is indeed warm in the summer. True that it only falls snow on extreme rare occasions - it never snows in San Francisco either -but it's not warm all year round. The summer can be hot, but it's often cooler than in central Europe due to the Atlantic winds.


Also, it's not the Gulf Stream that heats Lisbon. The Golf Stream runs from South to North along the North American coast, on the other side of the Atlantic (loool). Lisbon, being on the east side of the Atlantic gets a cold stream, which after leaving Europe and entering Africa is called the Canary Current. This cold stream is normal on west coast of continents and it passes through the ocean coast of Mediterranean climate regions.

Do you want Gulf Stream? Go to Florida, the Carolinas, Virginia.

—The preceding comment was added by 62.28.51.244 (talkcontribs)

Your words imply that this is an ongoing concern rather than a one-time error that someone made in the past. This is a wiki; make the changes you think are necessary. LtPowers 13:42, 6 February 2012 (EST)

Driving Lisbon

Should probably have some warning on driving here. The city is the absolute worst I've been through in Iberia. The roads are much wider though than Sevilla, and the drivers not nearly as aggresive, but lane markings are missing, traffic lights are non-exising in for instance Belem, trams drive on the regular road, signs with directions are often wrong and usually missing, parking is ridicolous expensive, and it is pracically impossible to get to Lisbon without using a toll-road. Stay away from Lisbon if you are driving through Portugal or Iberia in general. 85.235.250.110 05:41, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

As a local, I second that. I always mention that to tourists: don't do it. That's for insiders only.

Why not putting things the other way around? Come to Lisbon but leave the car away! —The preceding comment was added by 62.28.51.244 (talkcontribs)

Stay Safe

As you can see in the work from Gergely Hideg & Robert Manchin (EUICS Consortium) Environment and Safety in European Capitals, Lisbon is one of the capitals in Europe which has less crime. I find the terms used in this section exaggerated. Although I am not editing the article on account of not being registered on the site, I would advise someone to do it. —The preceding comment was added by 213.22.39.30 (talkcontribs) .


Hi! Just so you know, you don't have to be registered; we'd love it if you went ahead and edited the article. We'd also love it if you registered an account, but it's not necessary. LtPowers 19:59, 1 September 2008 (EDT)
I have edited the Stay Safe page and added some more info. I also registered in wikitravel... let's see where this site can go :) Diogo Bruno 17:07, 19 September 2008 (GMT)
That is true, but it is also true that there has recently been a rise in violent crime by armed gangs too. It doesn't show in statistics yet, and most possibly it won't affect Lisbon's status, but nevertheless it's ongoing -- let's just see where it ends up.

A little cleaning and plunging.

I am working on getting something written the hotels that only have addresses. I am pulling for customer reviews from many hostel booking websites - not copy/paste but using them for real information about the place. I am really interested in Lisbon it has been on my wish list of places to go for a while so I though this would be a fun way to encourage myself to get there.

Also I am doing a bit of cleaning - making all the phone numbers uniform I am trying to use the +351 (21) xxx-xxx formate, because it is the one I see the most often on website. Trew 18:24, 16 October 2008 (EDT)


Good Morning, At it again. I noticed that Lisbon Calling Hostel is listed under two different neighborhoods, I am going to try to figure out which it is really in and delete the duplicateTrew 14:38, 17 October 2008 (EDT).

Again cleaning. Was looking for information about Coimbra e Madrid and found a few reviews saying it has bed -bugs and is not clean. I am going to delete it because that doesn't sound like a place I want to send wikitravelers.Trew 14:30, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Fundação Arpad Szenes / Vieira da Silva

There is a listing for this in the see or do section. I am trying to find more information on it but am coming up short mostly because I can't read Portages. I think it is a festival or a museum but can't get farther than that. Can someone help fill in this. Thanks Trew 13:32, 16 October 2008 (EDT)Trew

Done! Texugo 02:24, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Restauradores Hotel?

I have search high and low for information about Restauradores, Praça dos Restauradores, 13, and have come up dry. I have found some things that at the location but nothing much about a hotel in that area. Does anyone know about this place or is it a phantom? Can it be deleted?Trew 14:19, 20 November 2008 (EST)

views from Santa Justa's Elevator

I removed this piece from description for "Santa Justa's Elevator", as it looks like an overstatement from my experience:

It offers some of the best views of the city.

Clearly any viewpoint can easily compete with it. Well, views are good but not any close to best. Maybe we can be more descriptive here to get a better understanding of what to expect? --DenisYurkin 14:56, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

shopping: streets and districts to recommend?

Currently we have a very small piece of advice on "where to go for shopping" [2]:

From Praça do Comércio (aka Terreiro do Paço) to the Restauradores, the Baixa is the old shopping district in the city. It includes pedestrian Rua Augusta which has the most boring and mass-visitor tourist stores, and several European chain clothing stores like Zara, H&M, Campers.

I clearly won't recommend for those seeking anything special beyond ubiquitos mass-market chain stores to go to Baixa. But after a single several-days visit I can only recommend a Chiado for some independent shops and informal brands like Crumpler.

Can someone come up with more recommendations per shopping category? Independent fashion designers (mainstream and alternative)? More places for informal brands like Crumpler? Good selection of designer eyewear? Recommended shops for buying fado or other local music? Best places to shop for porcelain? --DenisYurkin 16:11, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

intro for Eat

I removed the following piece from #Eat:

Eating out is deliciously bewildering in Lisbon and with some of the best-value cafes and restaurants in Europe, it's a great way to sample a smorgasboard of Portugese treats.

What did this mean to say? My English is not perfect, however:

  • deliciously bewildering -- what does it mean in this context? Surprisingly good? Surprising but still leaves a mix feeling? Somethig else? What does it mean practically for an average traveler?
  • a great way to sample a smorgasboard of Portugese treats: is smorgasboard used literally here? If so, it's misleading; if it's metaphorical--could we state the same idea with simpler words?

Overall, what is the main idea we want to give with this piece? --DenisYurkin 16:20, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

removed listings

Just for information: on a separate page (Lisbon/Wikitravel:Removed listings) I saved listings that are legitimate an in line with policy, but removed for subjective reasons:

  • Pap'Açorda removed for "negative reviews" ([3])
  • A Confraria for "don't list non-outstanding restaurants that are part of hotels which are already listed" ([4])

I saved them in that page for the case if I was wrong with my subjective conclusions, and they should be restored instead. --DenisYurkin 12:35, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

Bairro Alto

  • Pap'Açorda, Rua da Atalaia, 57-59, +352 21 346 4811. Lunch:until 3pm. Dinner: from 8pm. Food is good but not really sophisticated; awful service. Yet another co-owner of Bico do Sapato (there are four) is Fernando Fernandes. A restaurateur with his finger firmly on Lisbon's pulse, he also owns this place, opened in 1981 and it has been full ever since. Unlike its fabulous half-sister, Pap'Açorda offers a modest check, and it reverses the ratio of great food vs. show-off quotient. This is all about real. If you want to try (almost) unreconstructed Portuguese dishes, here's your place—and it's handily located in this month's up-and-coming-back neighborhood, beautiful Bairro Alto. Since the restaurant is named after Açorda Real, a lobster and shrimp dish, it stands to reason that this is a good thing to order. Mains 19.50-25EUR..

Santos (10 minutes from downtown)

  • A Confraria, Rua das Janelas Verdes, 32, 1200-691 Lisboa (Near Ancient Art Museum), +351 213 962 435, [5]. Located on the ground floor of the York House Lisbon (a 17th century convent) with a view over the city garden terrace, classic decoration. Open every day for lunch and dinner. Seasonal menu based on Portuguese cuisine with an inpired twist of the chef! Delicious... try it!

Top 10 places to shop in the world

Is that serious?

... makes Chiado, together with Avenida da Liberdade, one of the Top 10 places to shop in the world.

Is there any (un)official rating of top 10 places to shop? I mean, does it seriously compete even in world brands like listed in that paragraph? (and I can't say it's very competitive in breadth of local brands and designers--which is another point of view on what's one of the top places to shop should boast) --DenisYurkin 17:49, 17 November 2009 (EST)

Vacation Rental Agencies?

A few days ago, the Vacation Rental section (under the name "Apartments") was available, but now it was removed. I have tried to create it, but says the info I want to add was blocked by the filter spam. I suppose this section would improve Lisbon article. It is not possible to add the section again? —The preceding comment was added by Ttl (talkcontribs)

Hi Raul! As already explained on user page our Apartment listing doesn't allow your listing and your touty entries have been reverted. As you didn't followed our guidelines your business has been blacklisted due to your edit warring and don't tout policy. The section will stay permanently deleted as i is not in line with our policies. jan 05:53, 14 June 2010 (EDT)


Hello! Thank you for the answer! Please let me insist a little bit more, based on the guidelines of Apartment listing. Regarding the several points: 1. I am trying to get the consensus to allow the page. 2. The separate sub-section is not a problem at all. 3. We do have a local address with a phone number that specifies the physical address at the destination for picking up the keys, managing the property and/or resolving rental issues. We also have a 24 hour phone, so the guests can contact the agency at anytime. Our address is shown in our website (contact area). 4. Our apartments are available for a week rental or even less. At the moment, in Lisbon, there are several agencies of this site. I really think this is an additional value to the page. It is cheaper than a hotel for the travelers and allows travelers to live in typical neighborhoods. I think my arguments meet the points referenced.—The preceding comment was added by Ttl (talkcontribs)

Hi Raul, i'm opposing the rental apartment agencies and other regular users as well. The main reason is that Lisbon offers an excellent range of hotels on all price levels and there is no added value of rental apartments the agents promise(except from revenues for the agencies). Most agencies actually are dubious and entered from their owners and not the travellers. Users of Wikitravel trust us because Wikitravel:The traveller comes first and not the business owner. jan 07:07, 15 June 2010 (EDT)


Hello! I understand that the traveller comes first and that is why he should have the chance to choose. All over the web you can find several good reviews about these kind of companies. Some agencies might be dubious, but of course some others don't! Probably I cannot say the company I work for (you know this), but if you look you will find a lot of good information about us. We provide not only apartments, but many other services. I do not understand why should the traveller be deprived from a good service. Of course the agencies get revenues, but the hotels don’t?


Hello again, I would like to leave here some comments that show how good vacation rentals can be to the travellers. Please find them here: Bottom Line My Little Travel Bug TripAdvisor If you go inside TripAdvisor you can use the application "Compare and Save" and see how much travellers can save if they choose an apartment instead an Hotel.

Per the apartment guidelines I'd like to see some information that apartment listings are a common form of lodging for visitors to Lisbon. In places like Lake Tahoe I'd suspect that 10-20% of travelers use cabin rentals for lodging, but in a city like Lisbon I'd suspect that only a tiny percent use apartment rentals. If that's wrong then listing such accommodation might make sense, but otherwise I think we're just opening our guide to tout-ish advertising for a niche lodging option. -- Ryan • (talk) • 11:32, 17 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello Ryan, Absolutely. I have been looking around and in our National Statistics Institute is possible to find a report about accommodation types that are more often used. Report It is in Portuguese, but on the 2nd page (bottom right) you can see a table that I am sure you will understand. You can see here that Touristic Apartments (Apartamentos Turísticos) are an imporant type of accommodation.

Raul, the report is about the whole of Portugal and not Lisbon specific. I only have a very limited understanding of Portugese but i'm pretty sure that Lisbon is not the Portugese average. I know that rented aparments are a standard form at the Algarve but that can't be true for the capital. I have visited Lisbon (and friends of mine are more often their) and the regular accomodation are hotels. Statistics are always depending on interpretation but in this case it means nothing for the concrete case of Lisbon. jan 05:51, 20 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello again, Now I have something just about Lisbon: Turismo de Portugal. I would say that the first 2 pages are the most important. In page 1 you can see the number of nights and on the second page you can find the comparison (in percentage) between 2008 and 2009. On the other you will find share markets and 2008 values.

Hi Raul, just 1.1% market share for apartments while hotels have a whopping 82.5% share. I think this terrific statistic states that apartments are totally irrelavant in Lisbon. Thank you very much for clarifing that! jan 07:52, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

Hi jan, that is your way to see things. Based on the info provided by Turismo de Portugal, I can also see that between 2008 and 2009 there was a growth of 76% in the Apartments category! It is also important to mention that all the others categories (Hotels included, of course) had negative results. I am just trying to show that the importance of self-catering apartments is increasing fast! In 2009 we received around 10.000 guests. Of course this is low compared to hotels, but 10.000 is not a relevant number?

Hi Raul, i quote our policy: The only exception to this rule is for locations where rental properties are a common form of travel accommodation As you proved that apartments are not a common form it can't be part of the article. That is very clear. Second, 10.000 compared to several millions at hotel means that they are totally irrelevant. A high growth rate only shows that it is an immature market. I dare to say, here my involvement ends because facts are obvious. jan 06:10, 24 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello jan, Absolutely obvious..you can interpret the info as you want and you prefer the non-positive side. Anyway, you position is more than clear regarding the Vacation Rental agencies. Maybe in the future we will be able to appear. 10.000 is the number of our company. There are more than 30 companies of this type here in Lisbon, but not enough it seems. Thanks anyway jan. I believe that you try to do a good work here.

Additional info regarding Lisbon: Taxi drivers charge a fixed rate of 1.60€ if you have luggage with you. They do not charge 1.20€ per piece. Hope this helps.

Hey Raul, we are constantly trying to keep a balance between being useful and relevant to all sorts of travellers, while at the same time striving to avoid turning into a giant advertising brochure. Its a fine like to walk, and surely its not always perfect.
While calling apartment rentals around the European capitals irrelevant might be pushing it a bit, I do agree its a need that better catered to elsewhere on sites set up specifically for the trade - since, as it has turned out, if we leave the sleep section untendered they end up looking like this which is not really useful to anyone, including the business owners. Took us months to clean up that mess --Stefan (sertmann) talk 18:32, 24 June 2010 (EDT)

Hello Stefan, thank your sincere reply. I understand the explanation and I agree it makes no sense to transform wikitravel in a huge advertising brochure, but wouldn't be possible to list only agencies that follow certain criteria?

Our company, per example have a 24h emergency number mobile, an office in the city centre if somebody wants to talk with us and many other services. I honestly think that apartments are an excellent alternative to hotels. They are less expensive, you have more privacy and you can live like a local. Sure I do have interest saying this, but this is true! Thank you Stefan!

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