Difference between revisions of "Talk:Israel"
Revision as of 07:00, 18 March 2009
Hey all.. Just a little note about politics and the discussion thereof: There are lots and lots of forums on the internet for the discussion of politics. This isn't one of them. Sure, one of the reasons that we travellers are travellers is to learn as much as possible about a place and it's people and their problems, but here at Wikitravel the idea is to build a travel guide. That means we want a little background, but mainly we're interested in how to get around, where and what to eat, how to keep out of trouble, and where to sleep.
Of course your political discussions are not going to get deleted from the talk pages, and even if they are "deleted" from the actual article they are still there in the history, so nobody's getting censored here. Still political stuff will likely get deleted from the article regardless of how true or false or fair or unfair.
Basically we're on a mission here, and the crosstalk makes it hard to get anything done. Keep it down a bit! -- Mark 02:51, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
"all 3 monotheistic religions" implies that there are exactly 3 monotheistic religions, which is false. Should this be changed to "all 3 Abrahamic religions"? -phma 15:04, 13 Jun 2004 (EDT)
What's with the idiot who changed the order of the religions? What does it matter whether Jews are listed before Christians and Muslims, or after? This sort of behaviour makes me sick. Sorry, but I had to mouth off. -- Nils
The latest fixes seem to have resolved most conflicts about this page. Now we just have to figure out what to do about Jerusalem, since that page also states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, without qualification. Also, it might be problematic that it lists Jerusalem's location as in Israel without qualification, since that's not at all noncontroversial. -- Joakim Ziegler
Chronology got you down?? -- Unuser
I changed the (disputed) link on the capital name to just plain text. I don't think we should defer to Wikipedia to explain that situation. --Evan 17:39, 28 Sep 2004 (EDT)
That's fine by me - in incorporating a NPOV reference I was just trying to placate those (above) who saw the listing of Jerusalem as Israel's capital as being controversial and thereby forestall any heated arguments..... I'm sure you'd agree, the potential for these is there! Rather than make recourse to Wikipedia (you're absolutely right on this Evan!), I'll try to find time over the next few days to write up our own NPOV assessment of Jerusalem's status and place it somewhere in the Understand section..... People would then be free to edit that and debate the issues on this page if necessary. Would that be OK? Pjamescowie 18:16, 28 Sep 2004 (EDT)
How is the capital disputed?? --184.108.40.206 22:00, 1 May 2005 (EDT)
Well, for one, the US still has its Embassy in Tel Aviv 
Somebody can find this info usefull It is similar to shuttle services provided in some countries but on larger scale. This service is available in all major cities, but in many cases is not bound by any scheduler. Usually you can ask the driver to stop at any point of the route. In many places the service is available on Shabbat. The price is indeed lower than bus, but after 10PM and weekends/holydays they charge more. In Haifa - to my best knowledge this is the only such place in Israel - Egged operates on Shabbat
(there was change in the dialing system recently) GSM enabled cellular phones from Europe always work in Israel.
Ashdod - incredible sea shore.
Netaniyya - 40 minutes from Tel Aviv, train to the Tel Aviv center, bus to Tel Aviv every 10-15 minutes, shuttle to Tel Aviv every 5-10 minutes. Good beach, reasonable hotel prices.
Many edits to this article get reverted due to the political situation in Israal and the Middle East. The reason for these reversions is that anytime someone expresses an opinion on one side (example: "The United Nations Security Council has decided on numerous occasions that in these territories Israel is the "Occupying Power" and is bound by the 1949 Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.") someone else comes along and changes it to the other side. According to Wikitravel:Neutral point of view and Wikitravel:The traveller comes first, the official policy is that we try to keep articles neutral and relevant for travelers, and political edit wars accomplish neither.
Note that this does not mean that editors here are endorsing either side, nor does it mean that those who edit this site feel the debate is unimportant, it simply means that the primary goal is to produce a guide useful for travelers. Links are provided to Wikipedia and elsewhere where travelers may learn more about the political situation. As always, if you disagree with the policies feel free to discuss on the relevant talk pages. -- Wrh2 15:34, 10 Sep 2005 (EDT)
I haven't seen it in other travel guides so I was hesitant to add the information, but isn't it useful to provide information regarding the voltage/frequency used in all places (and including here in Israel)? Also, socket types. I find it interesting that one of (not so many) socket standards is type-H, uniquely Israeli, although it is also compatible with European type-C. Just wondering if I should add that information.
Since the Palestinian Territories page has Jerusalem listed as "disputed" capitol and Ramallah as "defacto" capitol, it's only fair to make this page consistant with that. And you can't argue that it's disputed. The international community does not recognise Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem and it's claim of Jerusalem as its capitol. Embassies are in Tel-Aviv specifically because of this (some consulates are in Jerusalem, but embassies are the places that the embassador's are based in). - Asa
I know this stuff is important to some people, but seriously can we please check our politics at the door? I think in general if contributors simply can't do that then perhaps they should consider contributing to articles about countries which are not involved in their particular pet crisis. It's a big world after all. -- Mark 08:54, 27 April 2006 (EDT)
How far can I go speaking just English in Israel? (Well, I've been studying Hebrew but I don't think I can get by with it alone just yet.)
you'll do great ,many here speak english. we learn it in school from the 4th grade up.
Getting there by boat
I read on several websites that ferry services to Haifa from Cyprus and Greece have been discontinued. Are there other places where you can take a ferry to Israel? MaartenVidal 10:56, 8 April 2006 (EDT)
The Salamis Line running a cargo ferry from Cyprus to Haifa and back that will take passengers called RO/TO. They appear to be in business with the Rosenfeld line from Haifa. Contacting either company can get the details. It's a couple days a week and the times aren't very fixed. 220.127.116.11 16:04, 20 February 2008 (EST)Cheri
Given the volatile situation in many parts of this country, and the potential for violence against foreign nationals, is it not advisable to have a more detailed section on the dangers of travelling to Israel?
I considered this page http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Israel_Gaza_Strip_and_West_Bank before making this suggestion. Perhaps some information could merely be dragged off that site and placed on this site? 18.104.22.168 21:46, 20 April 2006 (EDT)
Bahai Faith and Israel
While I agree that describing the Bahais as a "major" world religion is maybe a bit much, Israel is their home and the Gardens at Haifa are arguably the city's top attraction, even for non-Bahais. Jpatokal 00:37, 20 June 2006 (EDT)
Should we put an alert message in this article about this conflict and advisory not to go there right now?
I toned down the language about Hezbollah and northern Israel - this article gets so many political edits that the less we can say about politics (while still serving the traveler) the better. If we add a warning about Hezbollah to this article then I can see us needing to add warnings to Lebanon, Syria, Iran, etc. about the potential for Israeli attacks. It seems like enough to educate the traveler about the tense situation in the Middle East and then advise them to make their travel plans according to current events. That saves us from having deal with POV edits from both sides. -- Ryan 19:12, 15 August 2006 (EDT)
Getting Around, by Car
I have written a pretty detailed section on traveling in Israel by car, including a fairly detailed discussion of the traffic laws and regulations. Please make sure the information is all accurate. Also, if someone could add information about car rentals, that would be great. EngineeringCat 21:16, 7 November 2006 (EST)
I accidentally hit save without adding an edit comment, but the following links were removed in accordance with Wikitravel:External links:
-- Ryan 12:37, 27 January 2007 (EST)
Hi i have read the external links instructions. Couldn't find why not to include a website that include alot of traveling information, trails and hikes in Isreal as a link. Could you please explain? Yochaig 17:20, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
Can someone please correct the message to a wikitravel standard (which I am unaware of). There is absolutely NO chance of Israel going to war with Egypt (as there is a peace agreement) and there has been no incinuation that any conflict between Israel and Pakistan was on the table. Can we link to the US Department of State, perhaps http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_922.html Flymeoutofhere 10:29, 24 February 2007 (EST)
I removed the comparison of risk from Kassams in Sderot to being struck by lightening. Lightening's risk can be removed by staying sheltered in the rain, so it is a poor comparision. I would also guess the risk is much higher for a Kassam to hit near you in an area where they are coming weekly and daily, than lightening stricking so until the numbers are available it's best to leave it out.
How "bicycle friendly" is Israel? I'm thinking about doing a bike trip from Turkey to Egypt, and I'm wondering if that is reasonable, and how accepted cycling is in those nations. Amssports06 15:30, 28 April 2007 (EDT)
I'm not sure if this is covered elsewhere on WikiTravel, but in my experience the statement in the money section that "ATMs are cheaper than traveller's cheques" needs correcting. My bank charges 2.5% as a transaction fee on top of the ATM fee for that machine. They add this in to the exchange rate so it is hidden for most people. VISA does this as well. Basically, there's no free lunch, and the article shouldn't imply otherwise. Neil 12:14, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
I believe the wifi project in Jerusalem is complete, but I'm not sure. I've also added a mention on a similar one in Tel Aviv, which I believe is also complete. Can anyone verify this?
The following paragraph is being repeatedly deleted and restored (a few examples:      & see also Special:Contributions/22.214.171.124). Here's a copy (misspellings and all), so that there's now a place to invite discussion:
Anonymous comment moved from the Get In section:
I believe Pakistan should not be included in the Warning Box above. I called the Pakistani Embassy in Washington D.C. and they had no problem with people visiting Israel before Pakistan. Could someone double-check this information before it is removed?
I think it is inappropriate to locate Golan Height in the same section of Disputed Territories as with Gaza Strip and West Bank. AFAIU, Golan Heights are annexed and therefor can't be called "disputed". It's true, that there is a talks about returning it to Syria, but it is not like Syria claiming that they own this territory. In short, my point, is that status of Golan Heights is completely different from state of Gaza Strip and West Bank (which are really disputed, as both Palestinians and Israel claim ownership of this land). I suggest moving it to the main "Regions" list, but leaving the current remark of annexed status. --Zigmar 11:18, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
It's been a while since I last visited this page. This time I'm going to try and be on the editor's side for the first time (I've been a "reader" of this term for a long time and have used the info provided here so many times)
One of the changes that I didn't like to find out, was the revert from textual-links to bullets-Links.
I really can't see the point in replacing a simple, easy to read, text link like "Israel Youth Hoster Association" (for example), with the bullet-link: . (hey that's what the internet is all about, text links, isn't it?)
FMOHO, in the previous version, when one (actually, I'm basing it on my own experience) was looking at the listings under the "Sleeping" section, it was much easier to read through the different items in the list - the text links made it easier to differentiate the items (thus making it easier and quicker to browse the the section and find the one item in the list, that really interest you).
I personally believe we should never sacrifice functionality (or comfort of use, in this case) for good looks (as in the example above).
Just my 12 cents....
(btw, I modified the page back to the previous look n' feel, if you think I'm wrong feel free to undo) --Eladrosh 23:13, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
Israeli Visa and Entry to Other Nations
Hi, a friend of mine told me that he has heard of some Eastern European countries that will deny entry to an American with a passport that has an Israeli visa attached to it. I think it would be hard to imagine an EU country (even in Eastern Europe) not allowing an American into the country simply because of another foreign visa. But what about non-EU countries? Has anyone experienced this problem? Do any of you think it is even remotely likely? --Matt Talk 00:48, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
I really don't know who is responsible for the fact data on the site. Last Religion data distribution of the population in Israel(source: Central Burau of Statistics): Jewish 75.6%, Arabs 20.0% and other 4.4%. The data in the site is completely wrong. Gus
continuing from Wikitravel:Votes for deletion#Judean Desert
So, it's probably time to jiggle Israel's regions a bit, because there's just too many at the moment -- maximum should be nine. Here's my first shot:
Occupied or Disputed
A user came along and changed "Occupied Territories" to "Disputed Territories". Which should be used? Does it even matter? AHeneen 04:22, 12 January 2009 (EST)
gun ownership and homosexuality in Israel
It is not unusual to see soldiers and civilians carrying firearms (military rifles and handguns) in public.
I've heard Israel does allow citizens to carry weapons, but I only hear this in many pro-gun ownership websites. I need conformation on this statement, since if I travel to Israel, seeing people carrying guns around may make me feel uncomfortable. And by the way, I'm pretty sure Israel is safe for gays and lesbians, but I recommend them not to travel to the Palestinian territories, as homosexuality is frown upon in Palestine (note that I already added that).--Dark Paladin X 02:02, 17 January 2009 (EST)
Improving the ISRAEL value and currect it's geography
The geography in this value is a bit mixed at best, and untrue at worst. a few examples:
"As these regions are quite different from a traveler's point of view, information on travel to and within them can be found under the entry Palestinian Territories. This is not a political endorsement of claims by either side in the dispute over the sovereignty of these territories." However, puting the Golan heights as a "desputed teritory" is a purely political decision. From a traveler's POV, a trip to the golan heights is exacly like a trip to the Galilee, to Tel-Aviv or to Eilat. There is no special permit needed for this region, most of it's population is jewish and it is safe as the rest of the country. The only diffrece it has from other regions is the fact that it was conquered from Syria, which tries to get it back in negotiations (there are absolutly no agrassive acts in the Golan heights by Syrians or any other islamic group, not even during the war in Lebanon in 2006.). The same goes for East-jerusalem, which are naiborhoods that were annexed to Jerusalem, its residents have an ISRAELI citizenship and its considered a part of Israel, both officialy, and physicly from a visiter POV. The only diffrence betweeen East-Jerusalem and any other part of Israel is purely it's political status, and diffrenting it in a travelers' guide is purely a political decision. I think a small explaination line in the article about Jerusalem itself should do, and i think that would be the case if it wasn't the politicly touched value ISRAEL.
besides, the call "desputed territories" isn't very true. just like Tibet or Kashmir aren't put as a "desputed teritory" in the side, but are blend into the devision and specificly in every article its said "dangerous" or what-not. I don't see why the two values "Judea" and "Samaria" should be diffrent, as every region has it's properties, jewish regions and arabic regions. and i don't see why can't the ISRAEL articles and the PALESTINE articles both link to this regions. I think treating it diffrent than other desputed territories in the world is not only political and wrong, but also show an untrue image to the travelers here.
because of all of that and more, i suggest a new devision to the regions, which will be both true to the real geographical and regional devisions in Israel, and also more importantly give the travelers better information about the diffrent regions.
since the USA, China, Britian and every other country determans it's own regional devision, i guess its only fair to devide Israel in the same way. I suggest to use the devision as its written in here, in the website of the tourism office of the Israeli government:  which is also used in here, in the geographical devision of Israel in the hebrew Wikipedia: 
for those of you who don't speak hebrew, i'll write it in english: i think the basic devision should first of all be North, Central and South, as it is a general devision of Israel everywhere. Sub-devision should be: North: Lower Galilee, Upper Galilee, Western Galilee, Jazreel valley, Jordan valley, Haifa and the Golan heights Central: Tel-Aviv, Sharon, Southern coastal plains, Shephelah, Jurusalem, Judean mountains, Samarian mountains, Hevron mountain (all of the last 3 can also be collectivly called "the west bank" and then break into sub-regions) South: Negev, Eilat, Gaza strip, Judean desert(though its not in the south, its considered a part of it since it shares a very clear property of the south - its a desert. could be on both central and south regions).
I really do believe that this version will give the travelers a much more truthful image of what goes on in Israel from a travelers POV, without the unrelated political statuses and with a more accurate geographical and cultural devision. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Govrin (talk • contribs)
So, I appreciate the effort you're putting into this... but unfortunately you're doing it all wrong and should stop until there's a consensus, ie. that other explicitly agree with what you're doing.
The first huge problem is that there are way, way, WAY too many top-level regions now: the hard limit is 9, but right now we've got 14 (!), and adding another level of splitting does not address this. Earlier on this very page I suggested the following:
The second even larger problem is that you're now attempting to create a second parallel hierarchy that places the West Bank and Gaza both within Israel and Palestinian Territories simultaneously, which is a huge no-no. While I appreciate that your proposed hierarchy shows things as they "should" be geographically, the regrettable fact is that, for the actual traveler, it makes a gigantic difference if they're in Israel proper or within the wall in PA/Hamas territory, and that's why the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan are outside the Israel hierarchy. That said, I'm OK with placing those bits of the West Bank on the "Israeli" side of the wall, including East Jerusalem, under Israel. Jpatokal 23:18, 17 March 2009 (EDT)
as for the devision, from your response i'm guessing you do not know Israel enough and mabye thats where the confusion comes from. Like i wrote on your talk page, Israel is not devided into clear counties such as the USA or Germany or other countries. it functions as a unit, and the diffrent regions are determaned by either geographical properties (for example - Judean desert), by cultural diffrences (for example, Dan Bloc) or by political and military actions (for example - the Golan heights). Therefore, there are many devisions and sub-devisions of Israel, and most areas overlap each other. The Judean desert overlaps the Negev desert, the Galilee overlaps parts of the Golan heights, the Plains overlaps the Shephelah which overlaps the mountains, and so on. That is how Israel is and always was built for over a thousend years. I'm sorry there are no clear bounderies like in Europe, i really do, because it would be easier to devide it here, but thats the way it is.;
now as for the counting problems - I offered this devision not in order to make this article shorter, but in order to bring the travelers the most accurate data, and use the most commonly used devisions that are roughly used in every devision method of Israel. The point of this article is not to make the information as short as possible, and we should not melt down regions together in order to make the article shorter, the point is to give the most accurate data for the travelers. I'm sorry if Israel has too many regions for the article, but instead of trying to change Israel, I think its more reasonable to match the article to it. Each region has a unique cultural, geographical or political status that cannot be ignored by a traveler, and its our job to inform them of that.;
furthermore, the devision in most places extands deeper and deeper into sub-articles. meaning its true that China value for example is devided into south, west, east and so on, but then it has sub devisions, and more sub devisions, and more sub devisions. so its basicly the same length, only in depth. i don't think Israel is that big that it needs sub-articles and more sub-articles. a general devision of ALL the regions on the front page would do. lets just say that if you removed the sub-articles of China and simpley spread out all of the regions in china that are mentioned in Wikitravel, you would get a list probably longer than the entire ISRAEL article. so instead of adding those regions as sub-articles in the Israel value and create pointless short articles on each sub-region, spreading them all on one page is much more afficient.;
As for your regional proposals: 1 - Merge the Galilee regions: if you haven't noticed, thats exacly what i have done. but since there is currently no Galilee article, i kept the links to the sub-articles, so that people can still get the information they want. 2 - Merging Jezreel valley with Beit-Shean valley into the Jordan valley is simpley incorrect. its like merging California and Florida regions. Jezreel valley is absolutly not a part of the Jordan valley. if anything, it is sometimes annaxed into the Galilee in the devisions in israel. but it will still require a sub-article, as it is very diffrent from the galilee in geography and in culutural aspects. 3 - The Carmel range is densely populated, and the majority of it is part of the Haifa metro, the 3rd largest metro in Israel. The fact that its not a well written article doesn't mean you should delete it from the travelers guide, but that you should help improve it, perhaps? 4 - The dead sea is between 2 very diffrent countries, and therefore cannot include regions from israel or jordan. The desert of Jordan and the Judean desert are diffrent in their geography, in their culture, and of course - its 2 diffrent countries ! 5 - adding up the Shephelah, the Sharon and so on just means less accurate information for the traveler and more sub-articles, so what will it be good for other than to save space on the "ISRAEL" article?;
as for the creating of a parallel article, i really don't know what you want from me. i did not and not going to add any articles under the "palestinian authority". i did not create them, and i do not know who did. the link to gaza, west bank and palestinian authorities was also in the previous version, and i left it in order to avoide any problems of consensus, as you like to call it. if you wish to delete them, that has nothing to do with me.;
I hope i explained myself well, and i hope that if u have any problems, you will either talk it out here and allow me and others to fix and improve the value more, or do it yourself. instead of reversing it back and preventing the value from being updated.;
anything you disagree with me? Govrin 02:44, 18 March 2009 (EDT)