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Talk:Hospitality exchange

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Revision as of 01:37, 6 December 2004 by Valmi (Talk | contribs)

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I kinda figured a travel topic about home stay networks in general would be a better article than discussions about individual organizations. I moved the content from the three networks that were mentioned so far to this page, and added an introduction about home stay in general.

This has been the general tack we've taken with other articles about individual companies (viz. Discount airlines in Europe), and I figure it makes sense here.

Obviously this is subject to change if people think it was a bad idea. And there's a lot more info that could be added to the page, including costs, requirements, and restrictions for each of the networks. I've never used a home stay network, so I don't really have enough first-hand experience to give more than general suggestions. --Evan 14:35, 22 Apr 2004 (EDT)


Well, I think it makes sense to write one global article about hospitality exchange (much more used term than Home stay network - I dont have enough edit history to know how to change this, but suggest you do that), and then link to separate pages for every organization where much more info can be given. I definitely did not like the idea of having the HC listed only on that page. Then, whenever I would add some info I would have to think how that relates to the other organizations. Better to keep things separate. And yes, I do know what I am doing - I founded the HC and also created and edit the Hospitality Clubs category at dmoz.org ;-) Greetings from Germany! --Veit 05:07 in the morning in Europe, 22 Apr 2004

Mmmm... I disagree. You might want to take a look at the way we've done some other pages, like the aforementioned Discount airlines in Europe. We tend to group together companies and services under a travel topic and discuss the topic in general, with some brief discussion of each service and what makes it special. You can always add information about Hospitality Club to the section of this page dealing with it.
I'd love to see some more opinions on the matter, though. --Evan 00:17, 2 May 2004 (EDT)
Just keep it in one page unless it grows too big - in which case a specific article can be devoted to the topic, with even more information. Guaka 18:39, 4 May 2004 (EDT)

More objective..

Sorted the clubs more alphabetically and tried to take out information about stuff which is given in most clubs. Think the description about the clubs should be basic and like a listing that it easier for people to compare the networks.


Hospitality Club deep links

I removed the deep links to the Hospitality Club Web site. I don't think we need to have links to each and every feature within the site; that's the responsibility of the main page there. --Evan 17:37, 4 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Hm, this is exactly the reason why I think it is better to have a separate page about the HC. The site is already so large that some of our features are really worth mentioning, and of course I don't like to see it edited out like you just did after I add something. Soooo - my suggestion, either let us have the separate HC page back so we can add as much info and links as we like, or just be tolerant of us adding more info here as the HC and its sections grow. Also, I noticed that you added quite a lot of deep links on Wikipedia to Wikitravel pages, so I don't understand why you would remove deep links on your own site.Veit 17:30, 5 Jun 2004 (EDT)
If you'd like to give more information about the Hospitality Club that's useful for travellers, I think there's definitely room for that. Compare the listing for Hospitality exchange#Servas, which has some information about the mechanics of using the network. Could you maybe add more information like that? How do guests and hosts make contact? What are the requirements for guests? Hosts? How do guests find hosts? What's the limit on duration of stay? Is food provided? --Evan 18:51, 5 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Well - I didnt want to blow up the page talking too much about the HC, thats why I linked to the most relevant and informative sections. And there are 5 deeplinks only. All the questions you asked are answered in detail in the Tour, the Rules or the Forum or can be asked directly in the Chat. It makes more sense to link than to answer them here in detail - unless you want to have a page with 4/5 of info about the HC and the rest about the idea or other orgs. BTW, you didnt answer my question: why such a fuzz about those 5 relevant deeplinks here, but hundreds of deeplinks to Wikitravel on Wikipedia? Veit 02:14, 8 Jun 2004 (EDT)
I think you have it backwards; there are many links to Wikipedia on Wikitravel, not the other way around. The deep links to Wikipedia are for a different type of article and a different kind of reference.
Well, I found lots and lots of external links on Wikipedia to Wikitravel. I dont understand why you would be saying this is not a fact?
Thanks for the great info on the way HC works, by the way. It's very helpful and just what we need.
Valmi added that :-)
I think there may be some ways that HC and Wikitravel can cooperate. You may want to look at Wikitravel:Fellow Traveller Expedition for some ideas on how we do this. Our list of related projects may be a good starting point, and Wikitravel:Cooperating with Hospitality Club may be a good article to start. See Wikitravel:Cooperating with OpenGuides and Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia for examples.
Sure, I am getting tired of playing children's games here. I set up a HC article in the first place, you decided you would throw them all together on one page. Fine. My warning that probably later adding info (and of course LINKS) to the HC will be edited out since the page would look unbalanced, was overheard. And now just that is happening. But I also don't like my work getting deleted, so I am putting those links back. I think they are helpful and point the traveler to the right section on our site. With the same argument "it's enough to link to the main page only" I could start removing all deeplinks on Wikipedia to Wikitravel and just leave one to your main page in Travel Guides. Deeplinking makes sense sometimes.
I took out the request to add names to the list of Wikitravel:Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club, as that's not really travel information and doesn't belong in the travel guide, and we don't normally link to pages in different namespaces from the guides. I'll add it to this talk page, though. --Evan 12:53, 8 Jun 2004 (EDT)
Fine. I put a link behind "members" to this page so if people wanna see real members they can do it right here on Wikitravel.Veit 04:34, 9 Jun 2004 (EDT)

List of Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club

I moved this meta-information out of the article:

If you are a Hospitality Club member and Wikitraveller, add your username to this list.

The list is now at Wikitravel:Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club. --Evan 12:53, 8 Jun 2004 (EDT)


Continuous deletions

I am tired of having my contributions deleted on Wikitravel. Nobody is really answering to my arguments, just reverting my edits. Too bad. I just added them to my personal page here.Veit 01:33, 13 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club

There's a talk sub-page at Talk:Hospitality exchange/Wikitravellers in Hospitality Club. --Evan 11:53, 30 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Re: More objective

Hello 80.133.*. Considering your agenda and history on Wikipedia, I'm sure you won't be too surprised that I pass your last edit through tight scrutiny.

First of all, I don't understand why you say it is objectively more interesting to tavellers to have the networks classified alphabetically, so I put them back in members count order, which seems to me as a more objective measure of how the different networks may seem attractive to a traveller that knows little else about them.

This will also, interestingly, allow us to see what you edited. So as a matter of fact it seems you have only changed the HC and CS entries.

HC: rm and no money is involved - guests and host do not pay each other, agreed, it's the same on all nets listed here; add Europe and Asia is well represented, that's bullshit, HC has only 6.2% of their membership in Asia; add Through his technical structure is the club is based, I just don't get it what this void phrase means; rm who believe that by bringing people together they can increase intercultural understanding and peace, CouchSurfing themselves would disagree because they make a big point that it's the main difference between them and HC!

CS: add non-profit, OK if you want; change date founded from 2004 to 2003, you'll have to have it changed on CS website first of all! change member count to almost 6000, that seems pretty rough an estimation to me considering the count on CS website is 5235; change most of them in North America to Noth America is well represented, both are true but the first is more specific, as 56.2% CS members are from Canada/USA according to their website; rm but becoming a "verified member" costs a one-time US$25 fee, I don't see why you removed it since CS is the only website to offer that, changing to more NPOV but members may opt to become "verified members" for US$25; change encouraged for welcomed, if you so please; all the rest you added I have no problem with.

One final note: if you plan on going on with that kind of edits, may I suggest you sign up and get a username on both Wikipedia and Wikitravel?

--Valmi 12:39, 21 Oct 2004 (EDT)

I agree with Valmi. -- Colin 12:52, 21 Oct 2004 (EDT)
I agree.

"who believe that by bringing people together they can increase intercultural understanding and peace, CouchSurfing themselves would disagree because they make a big point that it's the main difference between them and HC!" disagree! from the cs webpage: "[...] official mission statement as: "To internationally network people and places, create educational exchanges, raise collective consciousness, spread tolerance, and facilitate cultural understanding." [...]"

From Fenton, founder and director or CS: "CouchSurfing is all about an inward journey. It's all about self-development [...]". He keeps repeating that everywhere. --Valmi 14:33, 22 Oct 2004 (EDT)
I can't tell what you are trying to say here. But if you are trying to say CS would like to promote understanding or whatever, just add it to the article in the CS section. However, I would note that despite this promotion being their "mission statement", they do not emphasize it much -- especially contrasted with HC where cultural understanding is the primary intention announced loudly, obnoxiously, and often. -- Colin 14:37, 22 Oct 2004 (EDT)
Stop! I just wanted to say that it is the intention from all networks. And I think I don't have to tell you how HC is promoting in the media as "free accommodation worldwide" to open more people with the idea, get them in and than make them to find out by themselves that there is much more behind.. both networks do this in their own way, don't judge which one is better..
And what I am saying is that there are more than just two networks. I don't care if you add to the text of CS. I DO care that you don't label all seven networks with the same statement. Let's make this page open for ALL hospitality networks, not just ones who's purpose is cultural exchange. -- Colin 19:14, 22 Oct 2004 (EDT)
I would care. Without saying that HC is better than CS, they don't have the same goal. HC seeks world peace through cultural understanding, whereas CS seeks personnal achievement and growth. And all the other networks have different goals, sometimes similar (HC vs. TH), sometimes very different (GFL vs. CS or HC; PS vs. all other, etc). --Valmi 23:09, 22 Oct 2004 (EDT)
Veto! The second change was right! You can't deny that all networks are connected with this idea and they all know what their cultural exchange can bring. Otherwise you could not believe in the idea of hospitality exchange.
Valmi, tell me: How can you seek world peace with a "HC over all" and censoring mentality? This has a really bitter taste.. alex
Uh? --Valmi 21:06, 23 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Documenting last edit

I don't know whether I should again document my modifications to 80.133.*'s changes? Let me do it anyway...

  • rm Germany is especially well represented: Germany is not even the best represented country, far from it. Compare to Lithuania, where the membership rate reaches 0.223o/oo. Germany = 0.100o/oo.
  • readd The sole condition to become a member is to provide the administrators with one's real name and address, so as to prove that one is a real individual.: Was that supposed to be false or ambiguous in your opinion?
  • readd An internal message-sending mechanism is then used: Same question...
  • edt TravelHoo is the oldest webbased hospitality exchange organization: TH has been operating since 1997. Hospex has operated from 1991. What, may I ask, the fuck?
  • edt hospitality exchange organization (legal USA-based non-profit structure): Was that supplementing, removing false statement, or updating? You kept exactly the same words, except you added some to make the sentence ugly and cumbersome...
  • edt Noth Amrica is especially well represented: I think I found an ultimate solution, I gavew the very objective, undiscussable member count for North America, and the member count for the rest of the World, plus the country count. You cannot get more NPOV. You may find, as I suppose from your edits that you are a CS advocate, find that this suggests a bit too explicitely that a majority of CS members are North-Americans, but to be totally honest, the majority (57+%) of CS members are North-Americans...

Besides, please be more careful with your spelling... (I don't suppose that Noth Amrica was due to "ignorance".) --Valmi 00:25, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)

Noth Amrica was probably a typo, just like your gavew in the above. While it's nice to get it right the first time, mispelled info is better than no info. Hypatia 00:39, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
Well, considering that a) it was in the real article, b) it was only moving the word around the sentence, c) there was no such thing as a new info in this sentence, and d) as you say it it was only a typo, not a mistake made because of a bad control on English, I maintain my point of view that 80.133.* should have taken five seconds to reread its contribution before posting. --Valmi 10:07, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
Thanks. I didn't jump all over the last CS-biased edit because I didn't have the time for fact-checking. It helps me for you to write this stuff down. -- Colin 00:42, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
The sole condition to become a member is to provide the administrators with one's real name and address, so as to prove that one is a real individual. Providing a name and an address is not a prove that one is a real individual. HopsitalityClub doesn't do more than other networks. Your sentence is illusion.
An internal message-sending mechanism is then used: Same question... Privacy is a sensitive issue and there is a big difference if it's done manually (volunteers) or automatically.. It's promoted from HospitalityClub as a big feature, so be proud of it and let the people decide. Don't try to write it positive ("thanks to the volunteers"), just write the facts.
You take out that at HospitalityClub 8000 members come from Germany (20%+) and you add at CouchSurfing the 'ultimate solution' with more numbers and details? Being objective, you turn everything what is ambiguous to HospitalityClub advantages. Nothing surprisingly new due you are a HospitalityClub 'main' volunteer.
  • Providing a name and an address is not a prove that one is a real individual. I don't know if it is a proof, but the word as here indicates a goal.
  • Privacy is a sensitive issue and there is a big difference if it's done manually (volunteers) or automatically.. It's promoted from HospitalityClub as a big feature, so be proud of it and let the people decide. Yeah, exactly. So why did you remove this phrase exactly, I still don't get it. Is it false or ambiguous that we use an "internal message-sending mechanism"?
  • And by the way, I don't know if you are aware that there is an edit history of wikis, but you know, it's useless trying to make me look like an arsehole on the talk page, as people know that I had not removed your addition about manual checking of messages by volunteers.
  • You take out that at HospitalityClub 8000 members come from Germany (20%+)... Well OK then, if you feel like there would be a point in writing that HC has 8000 members from Germany and 25000 members in 160 other countries, just do that. Why not? There's a small difference between 20% and almost 60%, but whatever. I hope at least you have fun.
  • Nothing surprisingly new due you are a HospitalityClub 'main' volunteer. Oh wow, now you got me, hell, I'm shut, aren't I? Look buster, everybody knows that I'm one the important volunteers in HC. If you feel that this is very important, maybe you'd like to tell us who you are, but don't worry: nobody here cares. --Valmi 10:12, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
doh! :-) just keep cool, don't insult, stay friendly and don't show that much about yourself.. like you said, nobody here cares.
Well, you do care, since you take some time that could be sed into usefully contributing to WT articles to remind people of my involvement in HC. So let's put it clearly, once and for all, I'm a very involved Hospitality Club volunteer with a strong feelings against Couch Surfing. And I didn't insult you. --Valmi 12:16, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
Good. I see all networks equal and want to have a equivalent wiki hospitality exchange section for all networks. There isn't a better or a worse network, yet. Just people who think that they are better than others.. but that's another topic. xxx

legal structures

hospitality exchange organization (legal USA-based non-profit structure): Was that supplementing, removing false statement, or updating? You kept exactly the same words, except you added some to make the sentence ugly and cumbersome... Is it important to highlight the USA-based non-profit structure at Couchsurfing? Should it be add in () or in the sentence. Should information be added to other Hospitality Networks? For example that other networks have no legal structure at all (HospitalityClub)? Or is this information not significant at all? xxx

Well, I suppose CS people think it is significant, because they mention it all over their website. But sure, feel free to add the information European-based organization with no legal structure as of yet to the HC presentation if you think this is interesting! --Valmi 10:12, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
I mean, that's a wiki! If there's something of any interest whatsoever that is not false or fallacious that you would like to add, no need to make a fuss about it: just add it!! --Valmi 10:14, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)


Thanks for the answer Valmi. But it wasn't just directed to you, even I knew you would be the first one pinpointing. It was a general question and a attempt to bring a standard valuation and description to the whole section. Don't see it as pro or con for either HospitalityClub nor Couchsurfing or any other Project. Your edit history shows that you are not interessted in any other project than HospitalityClub apart from when there is more information added to them. xxx


Well, I don't reckon it was directed to anybody as a matter of fact, that's just a wiki-question... I think Wikitravel is unfortunately a pretty dead project (although I did contribute to other articles than this one), but please have a look at my edit histories on various wikis, specially Wikipedia, before stating that I'm on an agenda. Besides, no anonymous kisses please. --Valmi 12:15, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
Like you said before, nobody here cares who I am. Your aganda at the wiki Hospitality exchange section is clear - nothing else matters in this section.

Sentence removal by 80.133.*

So 80.133.*.* removed this sentence

The sole condition to become a member is to provide the administrators with one's real name and address,
so as to prove that one is a real individual

I don't see a good reason for this sentence to be removed. It should be clear to anyone that, since only a name and address are being provided, HC is trusting this info. So I don't see this as a deceptive claim. The sentence does not imply that real, serious validation is going on. Is there any other objection to the sentence? -- Colin 15:29, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)

This sentence is confusing for people. HopsitalityClub doesn't do more than other networks. So you can argue that I have to add it to every network - false. This would make the whole section to large and complex. It would make it difficult to become a good overview abut the different networks. Therefore it should a good general text and the information about the networks should be reduced to what makes them different to the others. In this case: most networks have a normal sign up procedure, Servas does his interview, at CouchSurfing you can become a "verified member" after signing up.. any other supplementary information? xxx
Okay. So it sounds to me like Servas does additional verification steps. And CS provides a facility for paying money to gain an additional level of validation above the mere baseline. Do I understand this right?
So... assuming I got that part right. It would be nice to clarify the language a bit in CS to explain better what being a verified member entails and what validation steps are provided by CS to ensure the payee is valid. And point out how that is a benefit in terms of security. Does CS provide a way for you choose a validated host, for example? Or a way for hosts to require validated travellers? It'd be nice to mention that.
As for the disputed sentence which you say is sort of a baseline of validation for all the exchanges.... I think it'd be better to go ahead and add a sentence like that to each network which provides the minimum level. This way we are reminding the reader that the network provides only that level and no better. (For CS, it should fully explain the base level and the verified level).
Does this work okay for everyone? -- Colin 20:02, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
Sounds good, specially since there are nuances. I'll make that right now. --Valmi 20:12, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)
So I clarified the text on HC, and CS verification processus as well. In CS, new profiles are not reviewd and providing an address is not necessary, unlike what had just been written, but I didn't write it to avoid 80.133 creating more trouble. By the way, keep in mind that HC is the only major online organisation that review applications for membership, and CS in the only one as of yet that offers a verification process–there is more than just CS and HC in the world. The interview process in Servas was already documented in the article.
Parallel request: 80.133, would you mind please signing with --~~~~? This makes talkpages more readable, let people know who wrote, give them a sense of when, and is common wiki courtesy. If I was trying to accuse you of having an agenda, I may add a question as of whether you have any experience of wiki editing except for this article. --Valmi 20:32, 5 Dec 2004 (EST)

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