Given the consistency, thoroughness, and extreme speed with which this article and its companion article have been written, I am more than concerned that this material is being copied from a book, though of course I have no way to prove it since my Google searched have found nothing so far. Texugo 04:47, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
Text below Moved from Talk:Dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay after article merge
Given the consistency, thoroughness, and extreme speed with which this article and its companion article have been written, I am more than concerned that this material is being copied from a book, though of course I have no way to prove it since my Google searched have found nothing so far. Texugo 04:45, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
Peter Southwood, has his name on a number of articles written about the bay, so I think we should extend the benefit of the doubt here, though it would be nice with some confirmation Peter? --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 17:41, 9 August 2009 (EDT)
Hi all, The material is as you guess being copied from a book, but this is not a problem in this case as I am the author, and the book has not been published, for reasons explained in more detail in my talk page User_talk:Pbsouthwood in response to these same users above.
Pbsouthwood 12:28, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
If you want to confirm my claim, it should be possible without too much difficulty to search for a Cape Town dive shop, and mail them to ask if they know of me and my book project. It is possible that some will not know what you are talking about, but a couple of tries should get a hit. If you do this, I would be interested to know how many tries it takes.
Peter. Pbsouthwood 15:01, 10 August 2009 (EDT)
If anyone has an idea for a substitute for "Topography" to use as the heading for the section about what the site is like from a physical layout aspect, I would like to consider an alternative. Pbsouthwood
Headers and titles
Since we're in new territory allowing you to creating all these articles for dive sites, I'd like to voice a few concerns. I think we need to standardize and wikitravelize some things before there are too many more of them. It might be good to make a new article template to sort of match the other types of articles we have, seeing as how there are at least several dozen more of these coming our way.
Article titles - I don't think "CT Dive site Blablabla" is a good way to title these. I'd say let's leave out "CT Dive site" and just use the name of the place, then have the first line of the article say (as it does with other articles) "Blablabla is a dive site in city/region name".
Headers should match our standard headers when possible:
Understand, not About the Region
Get in and Get around, not Getting around or Access. Position should be included in Get in
Stay safe, not Hazards
Contact, not Emergency contact numbers
Put features and marine life under a top-level See header
Put explanation of the name, topology, conditions, depth, geology, skill level etc. under a top-level Understand header
I'd like to hear some opinions on this before we have hundreds of them to deal with... Texugo 03:42, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
Mm-mm, I don't think dive sites are "destinations" in the Wikitravel sense, it's probably worth developing a custom template for them.
I agree with Jani's naming scheme, though I'd like to see if we could come up with a shorter, but still appropriate name, for the top level article? I also think we should develop a template - where should we start up a discussion about this? --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 07:02, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
I did not notice all this discussion before, but thanks for the comments etc.
I have merged the Dive site list into Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay as recommended. Oddly enough, I did it before I saw this, because it looked like the better way to go. We are thinking alike here.
I also started Wikitravelising the section headings, and will continue to do so. I will try to finish this before inputting the lesser dive sites.
I agree on the usefulness of a template, and have been cutting and pasting a home made text boilerplate template. a real one would be better, but I have no idea how to make it.
If you can come up with a better name for the top level aticle, I will be most interested to see it, I have been thinking about that for years.
I see I have a lot of editing to do.
The site names as subarticles sounds like a good Idea, how do I do that? The problem is that even in this one region there are ambiguities in site names, and over a larger range this will be worse. Names like "Bell buoy" "Pinnacle" "Roman Rock" "Long Beach" etc come up frequently all over the place as dive site names. If someone can do one of the sites to demo I will clean up the rest.
Is there a maximum size for an article before it should be subdivided? Cheers, Pbsouthwood 08:12, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
I have wikitravelised headings in main article to some extent and reshuffled content to suit. Need more inspiration. Will now have a go at one of the sites. Pbsouthwood 09:06, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
I have now also wikitravelised the site CT Dive site North Paw and CT_Dive_site_Coral_Gardens_Oudekraal and I would appreciate comment on whether this is OK or if there are more recommendations. I will try another site or two to see if the new layout has any problems, but would prefer not to invest too much time changeing the bulk until a consensus is achieved on at least something that will be near to a final layout. Cheers, Pbsouthwood 10:02, 31 August 2009 (EDT)
Would it be appropriate to use IsPartOf to link the dive sites back to the main article in this application. I have seen that it is inappropriate to use it for a range of things, but it looks like it might work in this case. However I have no idea HOW it works, so I am guessing... Cheers,
Pbsouthwood 11:48, 1 September 2009 (EDT)
I have worked out how to do it and have started the changeover. Most of my questions have been answered in the process. It will take a couple of days, but I like it much better than the original, so worth the effort. Cheers, Pbsouthwood 08:01, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
Your wikitravelization is coming along, and the template looks pretty decent. A couple more things:
I think it would be perfect if you could swap the Stay safe and See sections, to have the same section order as other articles.
Let's take the image out of the template. Other templates don't have image prompts, and they are pretty ugly when they aren't filled in.
Remove the Gallery section. Unlike Wikipedia, we have decided against using these, not least because travelers often access Wikitravel from low-bandwidth internet cafes in third-world countries where waiting for a lot of pictures to load is inconvenient.
I have swapped the Stay safe and See sections in the interests of uniformity.
At this stage I would prefer to leave the one image in the template to serve as a reminder that without that information the site description is incomplete. In exceptional cases it may not be needed, and can simply be deleted. The image prompts in the existing sub-articles are there because I have either an image to upload, or I have an image in mind, which I am hoping someone else will upload. There is still a long way before I finish with the currently available text and images.
I have removed the Gallery section from the template, and will go back to the sites to clean that up.
Thanks for the useful comments. Pbsouthwood 03:54, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
Discussion of Combined article starts here
Request for comments - Diving guide topic
I have reached a stage in the regional diving guide topic main article Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay where there is not much more that I can think of that would be useful to add, remove or change, except occasional additions of new dive sites as they become available. I have gone over it and worked on style, grammar, punctuation etc, and though I have no doubt that I have missed things, I dont think I will spot much more. It is time for a fresh eye to look it over and spot the obvious shortcomings, so I would like to request anyone who has the time and inclination to review it and let me know what they think should be changed to improve it.
It would be particularly helpful if someone who is a recreational Scuba diver would do this, but any constructive feedback will be welcome. Cheers, Pbsouthwood 16:03, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
Actually Peter, I'd suggest you nominate this for a star. While we have no established standard for dive sites, I think it meets the bar; completeness, good prose, maps, pictures - everything seems to be in order, a nomination will allow us to root out any issues, and will probably give you a small handful of reviews. --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 17:04, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
Oh, after checking I see some of the sub dive sites isn't as complete as I thought they were, hmmm, thoughts anyone? --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 17:07, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
I'd say please get rid of the dozens of red-link Image: tags. Delete them or stick an image in there, I don't care, but it shouldn't be part of the template if there is no image to go in there. Texugo 19:52, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
Ok, gave it a bit quick read through, and have some comments:
Substrate not sure exactly who the target group is for this article, but as a diver who get beneath the surface once or twice per year, I've no clue what that word means. I'm not a native speaker, so that probably offers an explanation, but in general I have a pretty fluent understanding of the language. Using the same logic Upwellings and Zonationmight be bad section headers, as I had to read through the sections, to understand what they were about. I'm not saying they are wrong, it might just be my English skills failing me here, but maybe some native speakers can comment on that.
Contact section The contact section is really the weakest point, as this is unchartered territory I'm not sure what to do here - problem being we don't allow dublicate listings, and usually prefer to have listings in the destination article, but as this is very specialized, I don't know wether there is much point in this. My suggestions:
Dive schools (Learn section) - I think these should go in the destination guides instead, Replace it with some prose in a TOP level header - this empty list is not good (I get that they are in the directory, but it doesn't mix well with the how we do stuff elsewhere on WT)
Cope - Should be renamed, or separated out as a TOP section header, as this breaks with our manual of style.
Buy - All these listings are very specialized, and probably belong better here, than in destination guides, I'd suggest to separate the listings out as a top level header called Buy and then merginf all the different sub sections (except learn), with the services directory. It's a huge article, so real estate becomes premium at this point, the current mishmash seems to waste it.
It's easy to be critical, and I'm not sure about any of this, so I'm hoping others will comment too, so we can nail down something that works. Other than these nitpickings, this is really really great work. --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 21:06, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
The Contact section means something specific in our article templates. Overloading it to mean something else in this template is probably not a good idea. --inas 22:55, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for the quick responses! I am not sure how best to respond to all this, so I will reply more or less in the same order down here.
Stefan: Thanks for the vote of confidence. Your second comment on the state of the sub-articles is relevant. I dont think the main article is ready for star nomination because the sub articles still need a lot of work, mainly uploading the images. My own opinion is that at least a few of the sub articles should be of star standard before the main article should be considered star. I would say three, but dont really have a strong opinion of the number. I also think that at least half of the sub-articles should be guide standard, and most should be usable, limiting about 25% to outline, and hardly any stubs. Also I feel that since the article so far is almost entirely my own work it would be more appropriate if some other Wikitraveller would make a star nomination when it is ready. I am quite happy to claim guide status, since I kow that it is adequate as a guide, but Star is something that should come from outside. I have not been here long enough to have the feel for it.
Texugo: Please be patient with the red links, I am searching my files for the images that belong in those placeholders. I have gone through about 6 DVDs so far and have another 4 to go. There are specific images that belong with most of the links that are in the original document, but not in a format suitable for Wikitravel, and it is a slow and tedious business finding the originals amongst the tens of thousands of images on file as I dont have them in the computer, and they are only indexed by date and site. There should only be red links for new unexplored sites when I have finished. The request for comments was for the content, format and style of the main article. I appreciate you taking the time to review and comment, and your comments will be acted on, but it may take a few weeks.
Substrate refers to the material or object that the marine organisms are living on. It could be rock, wreckage, artificial structure, unconsolidated deposits, anything. I do tend to get a bit technical in my terminology. I blame it on my education. (I am an engineer). I will look at the article and see if I can work around it or at least define it somehow. Your English is probably as good as most native speakers, so if you have a problem, I must find a solution, or I miss most of my audience
I will also look again at upwellings and zonation, though I am glad to see that you understood after reading them, so they succeed in their purpose. They are perhaps a bit more educational than would be normal in a guide, but I think they do help the user to understand the region.
Contact: You have found my biggest headache area. I just dont know how to format it better and was hoping for suggestions. I will try to explain my reasoning for the way I have done it and maybe that will inspire someone to come up with a better solution.
There is a necessity for listings of the categories Dive School, Dive equipment retailer, Dive equipment service and repair agent, Charter boat operator, Liveaboard boat operator (other regions).
It is undesirable to duplicate any listing, partly beacause it is a waste of space, but mainly becase it makes it likely that when details are updated, duplicates will be left out of date, which does not help the traveller.
Some businesses provide one service, others provide several, so they cant all go under the same heading if one of the conventional Wikitravel headers is used, as the header will be wrong most of the time for most of the listings, making it more difficult for the traveller to find the information needed.
I like the concept of keeping to a limited and standardised range of headings, as it makes a quick search easier when you know what to expect, so I really like to stay with the Wikitravel headers, but there seems to be an incompatibility between the available headers and the ideal of single listings in this context. (The headings work fine in their original context of mainstrean destinations, but it may be difficult to get them to work in alternative contexts, like diver guides, and there are other specialist guide topics that may well come up in future: Surfing is one that comes to mind, another is small boat cruising.)
The listings in the dive guide are all very diver oriented and also very useful, if not essential to the travelling diver, and have no apparent utility to other travellers, so I strongly feel that they belong in the regional dive guide and not in the mainstream destination article, as they will be less useful to the diver, and dilute the ordinary traveller information.
I couldnt think of a better word than contact to describe these listings as a group.
The best compromise I could think of was to list the names only under the sub-headings Learn, Buy etc (I had to add a couple like Fix where there is no existing standard heading and it feels like it fits in OK), and then put in the detailed listings under the final sub-heading.
There may be an obvious alternative, but I dont see it yet.
I am also not very happy with Cope but it is the Wikitravel heading that looks most appropriate to me, and it does technically fit the purpose in this context. I use it as a sub heading under Contact because it is a listing of contact details. It could be moved up as a main heading without disrupting anything if the consensus is that it would be better there, but I would like to know the reasoning if it is not merely to comply with the mainstream template style. One could argue that emergency information should be more immediately obvious, but that feels a bit weak to me. No big deal, I will go with the flow if there is one.
Look at the Contact section as a user: Does it work for you? To me it passes this test, but I dont claim that there isn't a better way.
Inas: I have tried to explain my position above. Thanks for your comment, If you have any alternative to suggest I would like to see it. You have been doing this for longer and may have some insight I have missed.
I now go back to the article to see what I can do. More later... Pbsouthwood 03:45, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
More replies to comments:
Stefan again: I looked at the Upwelling and Zonation subsections again.
I dont think there is a problem with Upwellings, as it does explain the concept as well as provide useful information.
Zonation is another matter. The information is possibly not sufficiently relevant as it mostly refers to the intertidal zone, where divers generally spend as little time as possible. I will just cut it out altogether. If someone thinks it should stay we can put it back. There were whole chapters of background like this that I have not included on Wikitravel, but might put up in Wikipedia one day if I ever get around to it.
I have edited the subsections The habitats and Rocky shores and reefs to clarify the concept of substrate. Please let me know if you think this is better and/or enough. I have continued to use the word as it is the best one I know for the purpose.
That's all for now, Back to searching through DVDs for the right images for a while. Cheers, Pbsouthwood 05:14, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
Firstly, you have done a truly remarkable job with this Peter. I have watched with great interest as you have built this article. Very well done. I am a recreational diver so will try to comment from that perspective and well as on some of the specific WT-related points.
General Topography section text needs one or two paragraph breaks.
In the Marine Ecology section (extremely well written by the way), I would find it useful to have more species-specific information within each habitat(or perhaps have a separate sub-section for this).
The Cope and Read sections would make more sense to me if they were placed at the end of the article.
The Services Directory is a nice idea and removes the need for repetition. First time though, I did wonder why the Learn section for example was just a list of bulleted company names with no details of courses, contact etc.... perhaps these should just be listed in a prose sentence with commas and not as bulleted points? Same goes for Buy, Dive Charters, Fix etc. --Burmesedays 04:27, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
Hi Burmesedays, Thanks for the comments:
Paragraph breaks in General Topography: Done. Well spotted, I did this in early days before I realised that you have to put in an open line to get a paragraph break.
Marine Ecology: More species specific details? I can do this. The problem is where to stop. Is this the appropriate Wiki to write on the marine biology in detail? I can, no problem, but I fear I will go too far if encouraged. If you could give an idea of what you think should be there, and there is agreement from others I will do it. Otherwise there will be a fairly comprehensive guide to the marine animals of the Cape Peninsula on Wikipedia over the next year or so which one of my colleagues at SURG  has written, and to which I was a contributor. I can add a link to that when the main article is started. Actually I can go over to Wikipedia and put in the stub. I can still put in more here if it is considered appropriate.
Cope and Read at end of article: I have no strong opinion on this. Would like a consesnsus, as it may become a style policy for diving guides. See also comments by Stefan (sertmann) above and my replies to them. On second thoughts I agree with you about the Read section. It was originally only references on the ecology, but it has grown and I will move it to the end as suggested, where it can be useful for everything else as well.
Services Directory: Do you think that stringing all the service providers in a sentence will be as effective as a list? It will save a little space, but will it be as easy to find the information you need? I dont know. Second opinions, anyone?
Only destination guides have to follow our standard section headings. Please feel free to use whatever headings are appropriate without feeling like you have to use short imperative verbs like "Cope", "Read", and "Contact". LtPowers 06:42, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
We have way too many problems with people putting contact details of all sorts of things in our destination guide Contact sections. Those sections are of course supposed to be about internet access, post offices, etc, that is methods of contact, rather than people to contact.
Contact makes perfect sense in the diving articles in isolation - but it is a really bad idea to use the section headings to mean a completely different thing in the diving articles to what they mean in the other article templates. It will add significant confusion to an already confusing section. --inas 08:54, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
On marine ecology and species. As a rec diver and one with a layman's interest in marine biology, I find it very helpful in a dive guide when a quick run down of the star or unusual species to be expected at any particular site. Stars tend to be big stuff and pelagics: eg mantas, sharks, sunfish, any mammal and turtles of course (but it is much more helpful when the actual species is highlighted... nothing more useless than a statement like: lots of big turtles here. I think a dive guide that gives say, the 5 star species to be expected, is really helpful.--Burmesedays 09:18, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
Replies relating to last few comments:
LtPowers: Your point taken, but I like the idea of remaining stylistically consistent with the rest of Wikitravel, and I know that this opinion is shared by some of the others, as I was requested earlier to try to fit in with the existing main section headings.
Inas: Your point taken too. I have given this a fair bit of thought, and have come to agree that it is a problem, there doesn't seem to be an obvious better option for the current usage of "Contact", and I will try to come up with an alternative for the dive guides. So far I dont have one that I really like. "Get Service" for the shops, charter boats and other operators is the best I have come up with so far. I will probably use it until something better comes up. "Get Help" may do for the emergency numbers instead of "Cope". It is more direct and to the point, and should be clear to any user.
Burmesedays: The problem with a 5 species shortlist is that at most sites you cant really "expect" to see many of the star attractions. "Hope" to see them is about as good as it gets with big pelagics. Nevertheless I will bear this in mind and try to produce a shortlist of the star attractions for the sites. In some cases where these are sessile invertebrates, like sea fans or noble corals, it is quite easy, but our reefs don't really have the sort of territorial large fish that you find on tropical reefs. Cape fur seals are almost everywhere. You could see one on most dives. They become background. Southern Right whales are relatively common, but hardly ever seen during a dive, much the same with dolphins. There is not much point in saying you may see them at a site if it only happens once or twice a year, and is totally unpredictable. It took me 700 dives before I saw my first whale.