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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Britain and Ireland"

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: While it may seem a reasonable compromise I think it's a bad article title. It's not a term that's in general use, and so it misleads the reader about naming practice in the area, for the sake of political correctness. Far better to call it British Isles and then state in the article that this is a geographic term to which some Irish people object. [[User:Andyfarrell|Andyfarrell]] 19:24, 4 April 2009 (EDT)
 
: While it may seem a reasonable compromise I think it's a bad article title. It's not a term that's in general use, and so it misleads the reader about naming practice in the area, for the sake of political correctness. Far better to call it British Isles and then state in the article that this is a geographic term to which some Irish people object. [[User:Andyfarrell|Andyfarrell]] 19:24, 4 April 2009 (EDT)
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: British Isles offends, so lose it. British people do not use it as a form of linguistic hegemony, but as a cack-handed way of referring to the region (and it is a sensible region in travel and cultural terms) as a whole. British and Irish Isles is a phrase I have never heard in 36 years of living in both islands, and is a awful invention. 'Britain and Ireland' is what this area of the world is naturally called.
  
 
==Expand?==
 
==Expand?==

Revision as of 21:52, 12 April 2009

Ummm... my grasp on European geography is a bit hazy but wouldn't the Channel Islands and the Hebrides etc belong on this page?

I think the Channel Islands deserve a place here, as does the Isle of Man. I'm not sure about the Hebrides (or the Orkney Islands, or the Shetland Islands), since they all belong to Scotland. They (more than) probably deserve a separate article, but should there be a link on this level? D.D. 05:38, 9 Aug 2003 (PDT)
I'd link them then... this is a heirachical sort of index, so it they technically belong to Scotland then indent them under there. KJ

Looking good! :) KJ

No it's not! This is crappo. Can someone who knows more about the Isles please make some region pages and stuff? This is going to be a real tarpit if it goes on much longer. -- Evan 06:12, 7 Nov 2003 (PST)

Contents

Regions

I reverted the changes made by AVW2343, who added two English regions. These were more suited to the England page, as the term 'North East' isn't used in a British Isles context. In any case, the northeast of the British Isles would be somewhere around Stornoway geographically. Or maybe Derry. I also split the United Kingdom into its constituent nations. It seems more logical. Professorbiscuit 19:30, 2 Dec 2004 (EST)

Small Isles

I always thought that the Small Isles are part of the Hebrides. Wojsyl 17:33, 28 Dec 2004 (EST)

The phrase "British Isles"

This really should not be left without a comment right up front. It is deeply offensive to many Irish people and as ridiculous as a Frenchman referring to his "Algerian colony" or a Englishwoman titling a webpage "The British Empire" and including descriptions of the now independent India, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe etc. Please don't delete the clarification of this again. It makes this wikitravel page look arrogant and insular. Thanks. J.

Would it be better to split the content. Make new pages called Irish Republic and United Kingdom then redirect the British Isles page to a simple (disambiguation page): United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, Small islands) and Republic of Ireland (Eire)' ? -py
Yes, I think that would be a reasonable solution that avoids the confusion and politicisation. J.
A storm in a teacup. The British Isles is the established term, just as the Irish Sea is the Irish Sea despite bordering England, Scotland and Wales as well as Ireland

Exile 17:07, 2 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Quite. It's the same treatement that New Zealand receives in Australasia in terms of continent naming.
Not true. In Wikitravel New Zealand is a country in the Oceania region, quite equivalent in naming and all other respects to Australia. --Inas 19:41, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
Er, it is by no means the "established term" considering the term is rarely if ever used in Ireland. A quick visit to the wikipedia article on "British Isles" will give you 24 archives of resistance to this term, and documented official Irish government objections to its use, combined with its total absense from every single international treaty between the states of Ireland and the United Kingdom. Perhaps if you got out of your British nationalist shell for a moment you would realise this quickly. PS: There is no state called the "Irish Republic". None. 'Ireland' is the full, internationally recognised, name of this state, and 'Republic of Ireland' is the full internationally recognised description of this state. If you don't know such basic facts, at least avoiding feigning expertise on Irish related issues. 86.42.71.111 22:03, 10 January 2009 (EST)
There is no doubt looking around the Web that British Isles is still a term in common use - check google. There is also little doubt that it is a geographical description in decline, with many other travel guides, commercial sites, etc deliberately choosing to no longer use the term. It also has various interpretations, with the channel islands being variously excluded and included in the term. Personally, I doubt a regional term will emerge to replace British Isles, and it is likely that Britain and Ireland, or UK and Ireland will be the term that settles into common use. This is not fully determined as yet. Wikitravel currently uses British and Irish Isles, which jars a little, probably as the result of trying to reach consensus between geography and politics. It was an attempt to not exclude the Isle of Man from the region. I'm confident over time Wikitravel will move forward with a more common regional naming as that emerges. For now, redirects exist for the other common geographical names out there, and building some content to make it an article worth renaming would be good. --Inas 19:54, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

VFD debate

  • Why on earth do we have this? — Ravikiran 02:04, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
  • Oppose. The "British Isles" is a well known geographic term and describes a general destination. It doesn't have to be a long or comprehensive article, just point you in the right direction. A few people take umbrage over the term, but the present "health warning" should mollify them. I do agree that it is a bit of an outdated term, but not strongly enough to justify deleting it. -- DanielC 16:37, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
  • Wouldn't it make sense to redirect this to United Kingdom? Since Éire doesn't want to be called by this name, and Man and the Channels are officially loyal to the Crown, would anyone be seriously offended by that? (Not rhetorical: I'm asking.) If they would, why not instead limit this page to a disambig-style explanation that the term is confusing, and refer them directly to the Republic, the Kingdom, etc. rather than treating it like this, as a level of our geographic hierarchy? - Todd VerBeek 20:39, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
  • Keep since it's a well known geographical term, but convert to a disambig page for Ireland and UK since it's an archaic term. -- Colin 21:05, 4 May 2006 (EDT)
  • I like Colin's idea. Majnoona 21:49, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
  • Me too. Pashley 22:24, 11 May 2006 (EDT)
    • I tried to convert it to a disambig page. If people like it, I'll close this vfd. -- Jonboy 11:09, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

Disambiguation or Region

Europe currently links here as a region, so this can't be a disambiguation page. I've removed the disambiguation tag, and replaced it with a style tag for now. I'll also raise the issue for discussion over at Talk:Europe/Hierarchy --Inas 22:32, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Intro

I really prefer the old intro (the one I restored from May 2006). The "mostly obsolete" bit strikes me as just incorrect. I get 34.4 million hits for "British Isles" on google. I never even realized it was politically sensitive until this came up on Wikitravel. It's definitely the most common name to describe this archipelago, and we default to the most common geographic name. We should note that it's politically sensitive in Ireland, and move on with the business of writing travel guides. --Peter Talk 23:57, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Wikipedia [1] says There is evidence that ... "Britain and Ireland" is becoming a preferred description [over the British Isles]. I don't think you can say categorically there is no controversy over whether it is obsolete, given that statement. Many of the results in a Google search reference Ireland separately. And some also include Ireland and the Channel Islands. I'm sure you appreciate more that most that a good structure, and not annoying entire countries full of potential contributors are both pre-requisites for a good travel guide. I don't think this discussion isn't necessarily a distraction from that. --Inas 00:23, 19 December 2008 (EST)
I've removed the "obsolete part.
Your non-authoritative source says "There is evidence..." and cites some sources. I remain unimpressed. Google gives 2 million-odd hits for "Britain and Ireland" vs 31 million for "British Isles". Google is not authoritative either, but at least it bears some relation to our policy of using the "most common" term.
Pointing out that that the term offends some is fine, perhaps even necessary. Beyond that we should not go, any more than we should change San_Francisco/Fisherman's_Wharf because it might be "sexist". Pashley 01:53, 19 December 2008 (EST)
The google search is going to be misleading here. Firstly, you don't know what the term is used to refer to. As I said, check the top few results, and the meaning is different in each. Secondly, if you don't use the grouping British Isles, the chances are that the words Britain and Ireland will naturally fall further apart. If you wanted make a list of Tesco stores in the British Isles, and then you stopped using that term, the chances are you would just list the British Tesco stores, and then the Irish ones, so you wouldn't get the same number of hits. Given that the name is used for several different groupings, has been rejected by one of the two countries it covers, and there are alternatives, I don't know why we would use it.
In any event, I'm completely lacking any form of support for my opinion, so I'm happy to leave it at that for now. Maybe things will fall better into place in the future. --Inas 00:49, 22 December 2008 (EST)
Well, Scandinavia vs Nordic countries is a good example, if New Zealand isn't. The problem of course being since we already have separate guides for the UK and Ireland, it isn't a very suitable name for the way we organise content "Europe > United Kingdom & Ireland > United Kingdom" isn't working for me, and "Europe > United Kingdom & Ireland > Isle of Man/Channel Islands" is just going to upset them, rather than the Irish. This is indeed a Gordian knot, but I prefer taking the fight with angry Irish men, for something which I find perfectly sensible any day. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:17, 6 April 2009 (EDT)
Oh, and as far as I understand it, if we replace United Kingdom with Britain, the correct region name would be "Britain, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland" or something like that, since Northern Ireland isn't included in the term Britain, and loyalists would find Ireland offensive. *sigh* --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 20:20, 6 April 2009 (EDT)

Stub?

Why tag this as a stub? That includes the text "Please plunge forward and help it grow!". We don't want it to grow; that would just invite more useless controversy.

We could tag it Guide since it says everything that needs to be said here. I think it is better to leave it untagged. Pashley 23:44, 21 December 2008 (EST)

It has no template. Shouldn't a region article at least have a template? We need a new article type..
This article has been swept under the carpet and doesn't need any more attention. It does not have a template, but please ignore it, look the other way, and work on something else less controversial!  :-)
--Inas 00:05, 22 December 2008 (EST)
I think this is effectively a disambiguation page -- all it needs to say that there's no content here, so look under X and Y instead. Jpatokal 06:45, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Deletion discussion

Wikitravel:Votes for deletion/January 2009#British Isles:

British Isles

Delete. This article is nothing more than a magnet for controversy. Just about every edit has been disputed, since the articles creation. Its useless as a disambig - who would really search for British Isles, and expect to be disamb'ed to Isle of Man, Ireland etc. Leave WIkipedia to argue what it means, we don't need it here. In policy terms, it should be deleted because it is not a destination, not a region, and there is no clear place to redirect it to. --Inas 18:11, 18 December 2008 (EST)

  • Keep It is a standard geographical term. It was proposed for deletion before and kept, see talk page. Pashley 18:56, 18 December 2008 (EST)
What is the basis for the standard? See wikipedia British_Isles_naming_dispute [2]. The best standard they can quote there is a difctionary and British atlases. Do we want a piece of this? The last vfd ended in trying a disambig. I support those who decided that it was worth a try, but it has clearly now failed. Again, the question should not be if it is a standard term, but does it advance the guide, and help the traveler. --Inas 19:11, 18 December 2008 (EST)
You saying British Isles isn't a region is wrong. It is a geographical area of Britain/Ireland if my memory is correct. Please be careful, because it does exist, the thing is, that there are multiple terms for these areas, although not specifically that whole are alike: Britain, UK, United Kingdom, England, Scotland, Ireland (incl N Ire), United K, Great Britain, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Northern Ire., GB, etc. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:17, 18 December 2008 (EST).
Sorry - I mean it isn't a wikitravel region, not that it isn't a region at all. It isn't one of the regions we have chosen to define as a wikitravel region article. Please take the time to read the wikipedia article, before you try to conclude what it contains. [3]. Thanks. --Inas 19:30, 18 December 2008 (EST)
Thanks! But my saying in what it is was correct [4] so there is no point in that truly. Anyways, I think it's fine as a redirect as it is a commonly used term but it still isn't what were after. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 19:33, 18 December 2008 (EST).
Its fine to say it is a commonly used term - but what is it a commonly used term for? A redirect is only useful if it can redirect to something. It is apparent there is no consensus on what to redirect it to, and it is going to continue to be a source of contested edits and reversions. We have to manage this stuff for some areas, because it essential information for the traveller. But noone is going to travel to the British Isles and wonder where they will end up. Its of no use to the traveller at all, and we don't want to be wikipedia. To back up what you say, you should go to the article, and revert the latest change, which disagrees with the link you just posted. --Inas 19:45, 18 December 2008 (EST)
What change? It is usually a word used to describe Ireland and UK. It isn't really travel related, but many people know it and people may type it up, where they get a disambungion page which is fine cause it links to all those places. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 20:03, 18 December 2008 (EST).
EE, it doesn't currently point to those places. The last change removed Ireland. Have a look at the current article and the most recent changes. If you feel it should include Ireland, I suggest you revert the change, and join in the fun. --Inas 21:39, 18 December 2008 (EST)
One of the few things I'm rather conservative about is geographical terms. For example, I prefer Calcutta and Burma to Kolkatta and Myanmar, though of course I want disambig pages for the other names. So as I see it, "British Isles" is a sensible thing to have a disambig for and of course the term includes Ireland; the whole point of it is to have name for Britain+Ireland+miscellaneous.
So if we keep it, it needs some rewriting. I'd be willing to have a shot at that. I think it can be made acceptable to all by drawing a clearer distinction between the mostly obsolete geographical term and the political divisions.
On the other hand, some folks do seem to object to the term and arguing about it is pointless. I will not object too strongly if the consensus is to delete. Pashley 20:32, 18 December 2008 (EST)
ditto but i won't help cause you seem to get it. edmontonenthusiast [ee] .T.A.L.K. 20:51, 18 December 2008 (EST).
I just feel bad about reverting a change that I feel was made by a contributor in good faith. I appreciate your offer to have a go at the page. --Inas 21:39, 18 December 2008 (EST)
Keep. Per last time, this should be a disambig page that tells the traveler why the term is deprecated and then point the traveler in the right direction for info. -- Colin 21:08, 18 December 2008 (EST)
  • Keep. But the situation is a little different this time—it is now a Wikitravel region, although it has not yet been developed as one. If we decide to appease current political correctness, we could remove it from the hierarchy, but that's a discussion for Talk:Europe/Hierarchy. If left a disambiguation, though, it clearly should include Ireland. That's what the term British Isles has always meant, and the politics of it are not particularly relevant. --Peter Talk 21:43, 18 December 2008 (EST)
  • Keep. Disambiguation is critical here, and we don't want to leave someone hanging should they choose to search for this term. If contentious editing is a problem, protect the page; the links within aren't going to change. LtPowers 21:46, 18 December 2008 (EST)
    • Hmm, I still say keep, but I'm not sure it should be a disambiguation page. Right now there's no good way to follow links from Europe to Ireland, because British Isles doesn't link to Ireland, even though Ireland IsIn the British Isles region! I'm all for using another term if the Irish truly despise "British Isles", but we have to group them together somehow. LtPowers 21:49, 18 December 2008 (EST)
Peter and LtPowers have it right. This issue is bigger than just a delete, due to the Europe regioning, so this article isn't really a candidate for deletion, and for now needs to include Ireland to avoid it being orphaned out of Europe. Its clear that it can't just be a disambig page, which is what lead me down this path originally. Linking to a disambig page is wrong at the best of times, but to link there from Europe is clearly an error. In any event this dicussion needs to move to Talk:Europe/Hierarchy --Inas 22:28, 18 December 2008 (EST)
I rewrote it. Comments on the actual rewrite solicited, here or on article talk page. Comment on broader issues to Talk:Europe/Hierarchy.Pashley 23:30, 18 December 2008 (EST)
  • Redirect but not sure where. Part of the problem with our clump of landmasses is that we have so many names... England/Wales/Scotland/N.I., Britain, Great Britain, British Isles, United Kingdom of whatever-we-are, etc. This means it is confusing for people from here (like myself) as well as travellers. Perhaps what we need is a single page that covers everything as a central "where to go next" and have the redirecting terms protected to prevent them from being changed (with a note on the relevant talk pages to explain why this is being done).

I know it sounds a fairly bureaucratic solution, but it may be the easiest way of aleviating the confusion? Nrms 07:08, 22 December 2008 (EST)

I think this is sort of silly, but if there is objections the only other term I really would find useful is British-Irish Isles, so what about a move and redirect to there? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:42, 22 December 2008 (EST)

Keep. I understand why this term causes such controversy due to the political connotations of the word "British", but unfortunately there is no other geographical term that I am aware of for the island group in question. Sermann's suggestion of British-Irish Isles unfortunately has no precedent that I am aware of, and, to me at least, would imply that it was a guide to all the little islands that lie off the coasts of the bigger islands we call "Great Britain" and "Ireland". I have to agree with Nrms that perhaps locking the page and letting the debate rage on the Talk Page may be the best solution. Ultimately this is supposed to be a Travel Guide, which people turn to for help with travelling. The page needs to stand for that reason, but I see no reason for it to be any more detailed than it is already. Certainly the text about the Irish objections to the term should stay. Tarr3n 05:08, 23 December 2008 (EST)

  • Keep, but as a disambig listing the bits and pieces under it, not a full-blown article, and call the region in Europe with the name "United Kingdom and Ireland" (two links to two countries). Jpatokal 06:32, 23 December 2008 (EST)
Please contribute this point of view to Talk:Europe/Hierarchy as the arguments there run against this change, and preserving the article as a region. --Inas 19:54, 5 January 2009 (EST)
Speedy Delete. This term is archaic, hegemonic and widely resisted in Ireland. It is an assertion of a particularly resented British claim to Ireland and over the Irish people. Nothing more, and nothing less. Anybody with a scintilla of honesty should have no problem understanding the politics of this term. If in doubt, go to Wikipedia's "British Isles" page and its 24 archives of Irish resistance to this blast from the days of Britannia ruling the waves. 'Atlantic Archipelago' and 'Britain and Ireland' are two of many alternative names which do not cause offense. 86.42.71.111 22:09, 10 January 2009 (EST)
Speedy Delete.Britian isn't comprised of two islands. Ireland is seperate and non related. IONA (Islands of the North Atlantic) is more approriate
  • Keep, as an article! This is a commonly known geographic term or region that travellers would refer to. It doesn't necessarily need to be part of any hierarchy and could be mentioned as part of the Islands of the North Atlantic Remember the traveller comes first. - Huttite 01:19, 26 January 2009 (EST)

Result: I'm cutting the Gordian knot. The article has been moved to British and Irish Isles (after deleting the copy+paste that was already there). I'm leaving the redirect as an extremely likely search term. This should be a reasonable compromise. LtPowers 08:51, 26 January 2009 (EST)

While it may seem a reasonable compromise I think it's a bad article title. It's not a term that's in general use, and so it misleads the reader about naming practice in the area, for the sake of political correctness. Far better to call it British Isles and then state in the article that this is a geographic term to which some Irish people object. Andyfarrell 19:24, 4 April 2009 (EDT)
British Isles offends, so lose it. British people do not use it as a form of linguistic hegemony, but as a cack-handed way of referring to the region (and it is a sensible region in travel and cultural terms) as a whole. British and Irish Isles is a phrase I have never heard in 36 years of living in both islands, and is a awful invention. 'Britain and Ireland' is what this area of the world is naturally called.

Expand?

Should we give this a full region article template now? It's a clear part of our regional hierarchy, and we're no longer trying to hide the page behind some sort of political tip-toeing, so is there any reason to keep it in its stubby form? --Peter Talk 18:09, 2 February 2009 (EST)

I still don't think there's anything meaningful to say about it as a region... Jpatokal 21:47, 2 February 2009 (EST)
I don't think that's reason to leave it a stub. I say go ahead and add the template. LtPowers 19:55, 4 February 2009 (EST)
What better reason could there be? Keep it as a disambig. Jpatokal 00:33, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Are you suggesting that the United Kingdom, Isle of Man, and Ireland should be direct descendants of Europe in the hierarchy, then, without an intervening region? LtPowers 08:49, 5 February 2009 (EST)
We put the full template on all sorts of regions about which there isn't much meaningful to say (endless quantities of articles about U.S. counties come to mind). Should we stop doing that? Anyway, I disagree that there isn't much to say about the region, although much of it has already been said at the country/territory level. I can at least imagine a decent article written on the topic of this archipelago. --Peter Talk 13:51, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Unlike many other regions, this one really can be a destination in itself. Certainly visiting UK and Ireland in one trip is very much a done thing. I see more reason for a template here than many others.. --Inas 17:07, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Yeah, and expanded section on Irish sea ferries, Ireland-Northern Ireland border practicalities, details on implications of the Common travel area for foreign visitors travelling between the two countries, are all subjects that I think could be covered in greater detail than in the country pages, with good results. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 19:12, 5 February 2009 (EST)

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