Um.. This section is going to have to be put in prose and each point explained. I have no idea what some of these things are. And this "the land of..the land of..the land of.." is just goofy. Texugo 02:10, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I deleted it... someone is clearly trying to sell Bihar as a tourist destination, and while it has a couple points of interest, it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India. I don't know that we should make it look quite that bad in the article, but I'll continue to revert edits that try to paint it as wonderland – cacahuate talk 02:52, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I would request users to stop being racist and insulting the people and the land.
- it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India.
- The above line don't says anything about Bihar, but about the person who speaks it. For God's sake stop ranting. Is there no rule on this website? Manoj nav 05:32, 4 December 2008 (EST)
The article needs a lot of improvement. Many new article related on places in Bihar has to be started.
Bihar had many important tourist places like Bodh Gaya, Gaya, Nalanda, Patna, Vaisali etc, which are important to Buddhist tourists, who visit these sites every year in huge number. We need good tourist information guide for all these places. These articles should also convey information about the improved law and order situation in the state.
Manoj nav 06:05, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I think there is going to have to be a compromise here. Instead of erasing what was previously written here, it's probably better to qualify it, using phrases like, for example, "Bihar is often referred to as the armpit of India due to its inferior infrastructure and faults in government management, but for the determined traveller, Bihar does offer a number of sites which belie its rich history." Or, "Although its history has been overshadowed by blablabla, interested travellers will find some offbeat attractions" etc. To give a balanced view, I think the traveler needs to be aware of any lacking infrastructure or social/safety problems which may arise, yet we do need to describe the points of interest that it does have. Facts about crime indices, etc., are indeed facts and shouldn't be suppressed, and I think even the William Dalyrimple quote should stay. But it doesn't have to stop you from describing the good points as well. Texugo 07:36, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- This - ""Bihar is often referred to as the armpit of India due to its inferior infrastructure and faults in government management, but for the determined traveller, Bihar does offer a number of sites which belie its rich history." Or, "Although its history has been overshadowed by blablabla, interested travellers will find some offbeat attractions" , again is a rant.
- Who is William Dalyrimple and what makes his statement so important? His statement, even thought it might his truth, is just a rant. Have you visited Bihar? Do tourists visit Bihar to discover the poverty of the region? Tourists go there to see the land, monuments, to discover the people, to see farmlands, rivers, festivals and not the poverty. Who in this world is interested in other's poverty? William Dalyrimple's statement, which is in a bad tone, deserves no place here. Even if Bihar is the poorest place on the whole planet, so what? Is it a crime to be poor?
- I think the traveler needs to be aware of any lacking infrastructure or social/safety problems.? It should be there in the title safty, restricted to the fact that it helps the travelers.
- Users please stop using wikitravel to vomit your personal opinions and hate. Manoj nav 09:17, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I personally think it has a place here, I find it to be good writing actually, but feel free to continue the paragraphs with some pluses like...
- "...things have slowly improved recently, but there's still a long way to go. However the travellers who do venture here, are rewarded with a wealth of unique culture, impressive nature and friendly locals etc..."
- I would like to forward a similar discussion, on the same topic, which took place on wikipedia - here .
- Dalrymple and a few others are known Bihar baiters whose writing should be taken in the right perspective. He has even denigrated the supreme sacrifice of the leader of the 1857 Mangal Pandey. Dalrymple comment is more in a bad tone. The circumstances in which he would have said this would be totally different. Manoj nav 09:50, 4 December 2008 (EST)
Instead of placing the following controversial section in the article, so that people can have a lot at it and discuss, it is better to have it in the discussion page it self.
Whatever index of prosperity and development you choose, Bihar comes triumphantly at the bottom. It has the lowest literacy, the highest number of deaths in police custody, the worst roads, the highest crime, the fewest cinemas. Its per capita income is less than half the Indian average. Not long ago it even had a major famine. -- William Dalrymple, The Age of Kali
Ancient Bihar was the birthplace of the Maurya Empire, the largest ever to rule the Indian subcontinent, and the site of the Buddha's enlightenment. Unfortunately the Maurya Empire collapsed in 185 BCE, and it's been downhill ever since. Struck by severe recession in the 1990s that saw Bihar become a byword for poverty, corruption and crime, things have slowly improved recently, but there's still a long way to go.
Why to place a controversial section in the article at all until there is a concencus? I am removing the controversial section. Manoj nav 10:01, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I have done some edit, hope everyone agrees. Manoj nav 11:02, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- OK, please try to listen to the points being made. You are essentially "fighting" a group of rather experienced users; me,Jpatokal, Texugo and WindHorse, while I haven't - I know some of these guys have travelled India quite extensively, and I hardly think you can disqualify all of us as "Bihar bashers". You should at least stop and consider that all of us are essentially saying the same thing; STOP fighting/disqualifying factual information (and good writing), and spend the passionate energy you obviously have for the place, on telling users why - despite the poor population, crumbling infrastructure, and caste uprisings - it's a fantastic place that they should go see - maybe look at some of the American states - like Alaska or Florida for inspiration. Considering this is the site of Buddha's enlightenment, and a pilgrimage destination as far as I can gather, there should be more than enough subjects to dive into... just remember that region articles should be mainly prose, and listings should go on the city articles. Stefan 02:16, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Experience on wikitravel doesn't necessarily means an experience on the topic Bihar. Anyways I never go for a self praise. Kindly verify before you call something factual information. Stereotypes are not factual informations. Using terms like 'crumbling infrastructure' shows your ignorance. There are lesser infrastructure like roads, airports, hospitals .. but it doesn't mean that they are crumbling. Manoj nav 02:45, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- My apologies, broadside warning, but I don't like being called ignorant. That is actually a quote from The Economist WP, which is a rather well respected publication; "...and chronic misrule that has led to crumbling infrastructure, collapsing education and health systems and evaporating law and order..." So go right ahead and call them ignorant, but leave me out of that, I clearly stated that I have never been to India, which I would think made it clear I was quoting other sources. And no, experience on WT doesn't make anyone an expert on a destination, but it sure does help on experience on how to write good guides - which was my whole point, which I'll state again; show both the good and the bad sides of a destination, from a travellers perspective (where a crumbling, inferior, lacking - or whatever you want to call it - infrastructure actually matters a great deal). Others seem to be doing quite well on the negative side, so you should focus on writing what's good about Bihar, instead of throwing up a big fuss about criticisms about your state - which judging from the number of people reporting on them - probably aren't grabbed out of thin air. The article can clearly be expanded, So why don't you write something about the culture, geography, how to get around, important festivals, Bihari, local dishes etc., that will prepare visitors on what to expect, guide them to the good stuff, and won't leave them disappointed. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:14, 6 December 2008 (EST)
- Look I have been too good till now. I don't have time to waste fighting with racist gangs to contribute for wikitravel. There to many other good websites, which genuine tourist can find. Please understand what I am saying. You guys have just ganged up. I felt that wikitravel would be a good website to share my experiences and so I came here. Lots of people do it during free time as hobbies. Manoj nav 11:42, 6 December 2008 (EST)
What is this if now a racist gang.. read the comments. These comments show the mentality of the writers.
- 08:50, 28 November 2008 Cacahuate (Talk | contribs) (2,466 bytes) (rvt, we don't gloss over the facts, bihar is a shithole by most estimations)
- Um.. This section is ... Texugo 02:10, 4 December 2008 (EST) - Nice way of starting a talk...
- someone is clearly trying to sell Bihar as a tourist destination, and while it has a couple points of interest, it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India. I don't know that we should make it look quite that bad in the article, but I'll continue to revert edits that try to paint it as wonderland – cacahuate
- ..which one should we ditch?
Manoj nav 11:53, 6 December 2008 (EST)
- Well, you can call us facists for insisting on a certain way of doing things, like giving lively writing priority, over dry encyclopedic recitation (which seems to be what you are mostly offended by), and putting the traveller first, and over the sensitivities of natives... But, from what I know about myself and these other guys, I hardly think any of us qualifies as a racist. The Armpit of India and shithole is cacahuate's personal opinion, posted on the talk page as far as i gather, where i find a certain bluntness perfectly acceptable - If I had seen in the article, i would probably have deleted it.
- And I would love to have you sticking around and improving the guides, but if you are this easily offended, you are probably going to end up with heart attack sooner or later around here --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 14:04, 6 December 2008 (EST)
- I pity that you don't understand what racism means. Being an administrator on wikitravel you should know that even content on this talk page is covered under CC license if you can read on the page. Words like Armpit and shithole have been used here not for any individual offend but to offend a place and community. Atleast administrators should not make loose talks and encourage rant talking on wikitravel. Manoj nav 14:23, 6 December 2008 (EST)
He, maybe you should read it yourself , it says nothing about restricting rants on a wiki talk page, it's pretty much all about the rights and obligations regarding redistrubution of content :) And apparently no, if me calling say, the rustbelt, the armpit of America, with high crime rates in the inner cities, large desolate area's, social decay, and nothing much to look at, constitute racism, then i might just be one, but if that's the definition i don't mind the label too much. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 15:52, 6 December 2008 (EST)
There is one city too many listed, magic number is 9, which one should we ditch?
 William Dalrymple
...is a historian, travel writer and journalist (WP) who has spent nearly two decades living in and covering India, and his books are mandatory reading for anybody who wants to even attempt to understand India. But the point of the quote is not his opinion, but the facts he states:
- Whatever index of prosperity and development you choose, Bihar comes triumphantly at the bottom. It has the lowest literacy, the highest number of deaths in police custody, the worst roads, the highest crime, the fewest cinemas. Its per capita income is less than half the Indian average. Not long ago it even had a major famine. -- William Dalrymple, The Age of Kali
If you disagree with that, then show me a state in India which has lower literacy, higher deaths in police custody, worse roads, higher crime or fewer cinemas than Bihar. Jpatokal 00:57, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- ...and oh, there actually is one factual inaccuracy in that. These days, Bihar's GDP per capita is not half the Indian average... it's one fifth ($148 vs $997). Jpatokal 01:05, 5 December 2008 (EST)
There are so many historians and so many journalists. I didn't even know about William Dalrymple before I ran into this discussion.
Higher crime : Rising crime graph in MP
As per the recently released annual report of the National Crime Records Bureau, the state has earned the dubious distinction of being the crime capital of the country for third consecutive time.
Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra have earned the dubious distinction of topping the list of states reporting the most number of crime cases in the country, which registered over 19.89 lakh cases.
Our greatest achievement: longer lives : In terms of per capita income, the richest major state, Maharashtra is four times as rich as Bihar. Yet, life expectancy in Bihar (61 years) is only slightly behind that of Maharashtra (66.4 years). Bihar is almost on par with the national life expectancy of 62.7 years.
Number of deaths in police custody is not an index of prosperity and development, on the other hand life expectancy surely is.
Literacy : Dismissing the state as the most illiterate makes no sense. One should look at figures to see how there is a gradual increase in the literacy in last many years. -  . Women literacy has increased to 33.57% from 4.22% in last 50 years. On the other hand there are states like West Bengal , which were far better in the past. But now they are barely above Bihar.
These information should be given in right prospective and not in a biased way.
Cinemas : Move over Bollywood, here's Bhojpuri
The industry, catering to 200m people who speak the Bhojpuri language - a dialect of Hindi - and live in the states of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, is raking in cash like never before.
Sticking to home-grown Indian family melodramas and throwing in some glamorous faces and slick foreign locations for a contemporary feel, Bhojpuri films are often outperforming Bollywood biopics at the box office these days.
Manoj nav 01:34, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Apparently William Dalrymple statement appears to be false or outdated. Manoj nav 01:43, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Will the users here have the courtesy to remove William Dalrymple's comment? Manoj nav 06:19, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Actually, it looks like you agree with Dalrymple's assessment on everything except crime, no? And take a look at : Uttar Pradesh and Bihar have reported high number of incidence with 26,693 and 23,039 cases representing 12.4% and 10.7% respectively of the total violent crimes reported in the country during 2007. However, as Bihar has under half the population of UP, the actual incidence of crime is twice that of UP. Jpatokal 23:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- What I am saying is Dalrymple's comment is nothing but a racist rant. Crime is inclusive of violent crime, which is lower in Bihar. Manoj nav 11:33, 6 December 2008 (EST)
 Poor image of Bihar
After independence , when India was falling into an autocratic rule during the regime of Indira Gandhi, the main thrust to the movement to hold elections came from Bihar under the leadership of Jaya Prakash Narayan.
This resulted in two things:
- The identity of Bihar (from the word Vihar meaning monasteries) representing a glorious past was lost. Its voice often used to get lost in the din of regional clamor of other states, specially the linguistic states like Uttar pradesh, Madhya pradesh etc.
- Bihar gained an anti-establishment image. The establishment oriented press often projected the state as indiscipline and anarchy.
Manoj nav 02:05, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Hi Manoj, I think you misunderstand my position... I have nothing against Bihar personally, I've visited it a couple of times. But surely, considering it's your homeland, you're aware that it doesn't have the best reputation, right? Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state, no? Anyway, I agree the page needs some work, it's still in its beginning stages... but if you help to improve it, you have to keep a realistic tone... while Bihar has a couple of sites of interest like Bodhgaya, it is definitely not Rajasthan. Also, we have different goals and writing style than you will find on Wikipedia... we write our guides from a travelers point of view, and we don't want to sell anything to anyone. We just want to write about Bihar as it is, good and bad, without over-hyping the good... in a way, similar to WP's policy of not giving it undue weight – cacahuate talk 03:10, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- 1. Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state, no? Bihari people face prejudice and racism in India. This is well know. And advices like the one you have mentioned reflects such prejudice. I don't think wikitravel is a place to spread stereotypes. I would say this - keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state holds for India and not just Bihar.
- 2. while Bihar has a couple of sites of interest like Bodhgaya, it is definitely not Rajasthan. Just because tourism department have sold something well, doesn't makes the state great. It's the tourism department which has to be appreciated. There are some Indian states who basic economy runs on tourism unlike Bihar where this sector has still not been explored. Manoj nav 03:30, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Re #1, you can call it prejudice and racism if you like, I call it a reputation, and it's our duty to inform the traveler of that reputation. I agree it applies to all of India as well, but it's of particular relevance to Bihar, or so the story goes.
- It's our duty to inform the traveler the truth and not stories and stereotypes. We should call spade a spade. If it is prejudice and racism, it should be called as it is. The travelers should be cautioned of any wrong information passed to them by non-Biharis. Let the travels decide what is useful them. Manoj nav 04:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Re #2, we cover places that are currently of interest to travelers, such as Bodhgaya. How and why it became of interest to the traveler isn't important... travelers go there, so we'll write an article about it and cover it accurately. As for the rest of Bihar, we aren't here to push tourism into new areas, so we shouldn't try to sell it as a destination when it isn't really one at the moment – cacahuate talk 04:01, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- we shouldn't try to sell : I never asked anyone to sell; if you can read the comment. I have just tried to clear an ignorance on a point which was unnecessarily raise by you. Manoj nav 04:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)
No body try to sell bihar as a tourist destination, whatever I have written it was the fact about bihar, it is a fact that Bihar is birth place of two religion(Bhuddhism, Jainism) and it has a glorius past because of major historical landmark like Patliputra, Bodhgaya, Rajgriha, Vaishali, Nalanda & Vikramshila.
It was a power centre in ancient days, even Patna was a major trading centre in middle era(during Mughal), even British ruler also understand the strategic importance of patna thats why they made Patna as a capital of Bihar/Orissa in 1912AD.
Now a days Patna is a major business centre in eastern India, it is growing as a major education hub as IIT/NIFT/NIPER/NIT like institution has come up here so Pls. do'nt disgrace Bihar/patna.
- Hi Piyush, nobody is trying to disgrace Bihar, but we have to describe it as is, from the point of view of a traveler. Most of the things you mention above are more relevant to Wikipedia than here... I'm happy the education and business are improving, but that doesn't really concern the traveler. This article could definitely use some expansion and improvements though, but just be careful to not try and make it look too sunny sunny, it has to reflect the current reality – cacahuate talk 14:17, 5 December 2008 (EST)
Hi, 'Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state.' I think the person who wrote this statement, did not traveled through Maharashtra (Sholapur area) where you have to forcely close the windows and doors of train by RPF and TTE. If you do not close then you would be hitted by stones. These all help criminals in snatching. Even police will not catch the criminals their, they will help you in closing door and windows. I think Bihar is in better position than this where you need to only keep your eyes on belongings.
Few days before 2 boggies of a train were burnt in Bihar due to one stopage was removed by railways. This news was highlighted by media saying bad law and orders in Bihar but 2 weeks before a number of trains burnt in Punjab just because a person was murdered in Austria. This was incident not decrease of law and order. I request that if you want to critisize any state then be fare and compare the same through other states also.
If you watch news then definitely you feel some improvements in Bihar in law & order, education etc. but anti bihari mentality are not changing in India. Please change this mentality and treat Bihar like other states.
- Hey Niraj, We've already made considerable compromises on this article (more than I personally would like) - So as I've urged time and time again, write about the good stuff, and leave the bad stuff as is now, so we get a balanced guide, which is how we like it here on Wikitravel. Racism and degradation is not things we encourage, but neither is misguided patriotism. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:55, 5 June 2009 (EDT)
 Bihar Crime
Bihar has a terrible reputation for crime and banditry (or dacoity, to use the Indian word), with armed bandits recently taking to hijacking moving trains and nearly 5000 kidnappings recorded in 2007
The train hijacking case was not happen in Bihar, It was the case of Jharkhand so pls. do'nt put such false n negative information of Bihar on such a authentic source of information, so I am deleting the said line.
In recent years/month law n order situation is improving so no need to put the no. of kidnappings happen in Bihar, pls. do'nt provide false information to tourist, Thanks
- Again, removing everything that doesn't put Bihar up on a pedistal, is probably not the right way to go, so i reverted your changes. But if you are sure about the train hijackings i'll remove that paragraph. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 03:09, 16 January 2009 (EST)
- Last year's case of the Naxalites hijacking the train was indeed in Jharkhand, but there are plenty of lower-profile cases of other attacks on trains in Bihar:     ("In the last three months 40 dacoities on trains have taken place in different divisions of Bihar") ... Jpatokal 04:23, 16 January 2009 (EST)
Bihar has not the history of crime against any international tourist no rape/murder/hijacking/kidnapping then why you are putting crime statistics of Bihar on this site, as every body knows other place in India/World has crime history against tourist like Goa/Bali(Indonesia/Kathmandu/Jaipur) but on the webpage of such location no body has given any statistics related to crime, so why you people putting such statistics on Bihar page, I think it is not required at all.
- Hi Piyush, sometimes quoting figures helps put things into prospective. It is like giving an actual figure for a country's GDP, such $60,000, rather than just making an abstract claim that the country is rich. In this respect, you are welcome to add the figures for the places you mentioned, though, to be honest, crime in Kathmandu or Bali is far less than in Bihar. Perhaps crime against foreigners is more in these places, but then there are far more foreigners visiting them. However, Bihar does have a history of banditry and kidnapping, and taken percentage-wise I would say crime against foreigners would still be much higher. Personally, I would concentrate on adding points of interest in the state rather than trying to gloss over the negative aspects and, hey, I'm a fan of Bihar. I have had many enjoyable journeys there. Anyway, I'm sorry, but I have to revert your edit as I think most travelers will benefit from the information you deleted, and it is a Wikitravel policy that the traveler's well-being presides over all else. I hope you can accept that. Cheers. WindHorse 05:30, 16 January 2009 (EST)
Hi WindHorse, It is hardly important you are fan of Bihar or not, but do'nt deviate those tourist those are bound to visit Bihar, there is a social problem in Bihar(like gap in society income, gap in education etc.) , these are the roots of crime in bihar but you must understand these crime has noting to do with foriegn/international tourism those are bound to visit place like Bodhgaya, Patna, Rajgir, Vaishali, Nalanda, Vikramshila, Kesaria and etc even those are uneffected till today so do'nt put such bad image of Bihar on the page.
- This entire page so far is dedicated to saying 1) sorry but yes tourists do need to know of the reputation and the potential dangers, and 2) you'll be better off adding good things to the page rather than insisting on removing valuable information which isn't complimentary. I agree with Windhorse and all the others above. How about putting some good stuff in the See section-- it's currently blank. Texugo 07:04, 16 January 2009 (EST)
for your reference visit http://news.indiainfo.com/2008/01/13/0801131225_india_crime_record.html, Bihar is not on top in crime in India, so do'nt disgrace the place of Gautam Budha/ Mahavir / Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
- I merely stated that I was a fan of Bihar so that you could understand that my reverts were based on objective reports, not personal prejudice. If someone can prove to me that crime rate in Bihar is low, I'd be happy to delete the stats, but from my research (, ) I can find no evidence to suggest this. While a lot of crime is among locals, there are also reports of tour buses being ambushed. However, if you can supply evidence to the contrary, I'm sure that my fellow contributors would, like myself, be happy to remove the stats. As I said, they are not placed there due to any personal vendetta against Bihar, but merely because we believe that they will help paint a clearer picture of the region for tourists heading there. Cheers. WindHorse 12:35, 16 January 2009 (EST)
Hi WindHorse, there are many region/state/place in India thier crime rate is always above the national average like UP,Jammu & Kashmir, Assam & other place in North Eastern states(Tripura,Meghalaya etc...) but wikitravel page of these place have not mention such negative & horrifying statistics then why you have put the such statistics on Bihar page, I hope you will creaify!
Regards, --Piyush1919 03:24, 17 January 2009 (EST)
- Hi Piyush... Thanks for your response... The reason Bihar is specifically mentioned with regard to crime is because the crime is mostly on the street and tourists are targeted. Violence in Kashmir, Assam etc is related to independence movements and in general tourists are not the target, but the indigenous population. However, if you believe that violence in those states warrants more attention, please mention it in the articles for those regions. Sorry, I have revert your edit again. However, as I said earlier, if you can provide evidence that crime in Bihar is quite low and that tourists are not at risk, I'd be happy to help convince my fellow contributors to remove the statistics. Cheers, and sorry for keep reverting your efforts, but my priority is to provide travelers with information that will help them gain as clear picture of the places they visit as possible. WindHorse 03:55, 17 January 2009 (EST)
Whatever statistics referred by you is very old and stat of 2004/05, but things have been change now a days, no crime has recorded against foriegn tourist in Bihar but every body know there are regular crime is registering at Goa/Rajasthan against these tourist so do'nt do unjustice with Bihar.
--Piyush1919 09:04, 17 January 2009 (EST)
- "The highest incidence of kidnapping was reported from Uttar Pradesh which accounted for 16.2 per cent (4,478 cases) followed by Bihar (2,530)."  (Bihar having less than half the population of Utter Pradesh). Those figures are from 2008, And I'll go right ahead and add that to Uttar Pradesh in case they aren't there already. I personally think you should look at bit at what you are saying, it seems to me like you are conveying I shouldn't be warned about something like this, and put aside any safety concerns I could have with kidnappings, and potentially put myself in harms way, because it makes your home state look bad. Come on. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 09:20, 17 January 2009 (EST)
- Otherwise good, but re: "and in absolute numbers, crime against foreigners remains comparably low to other more frequented Indian destinations", isn't this just because Bihar gets so few tourists compared to eg. Rajasthan or Goa? I don't think there are any solid stats on this either... Jpatokal 10:04, 17 January 2009 (EST)
- A good compromise... Thanks for your efforts... I made a slight grammatical edit to make sentence shorter - please change back if you feel the original was clearer WindHorse 10:48, 17 January 2009 (EST)
I have tried to define (in the respective regions articles), which of Bihar's districts are in which sub-regions. Comments, anybody? ClausHansen 16:48, 3 January 2010 (EST)