Um.. This section is going to have to be put in prose and each point explained. I have no idea what some of these things are. And this "the land of..the land of..the land of.." is just goofy. Texugo 02:10, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I deleted it... someone is clearly trying to sell Bihar as a tourist destination, and while it has a couple points of interest, it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India. I don't know that we should make it look quite that bad in the article, but I'll continue to revert edits that try to paint it as wonderland – cacahuate talk 02:52, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I would request users to stop being racist and insulting the people and the land.
- it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India.
- The above line don't says anything about Bihar, but about the person who speaks it. For God's sake stop ranting. Is there no rule on this website? Manoj nav 05:32, 4 December 2008 (EST)
The article needs a lot of improvement. Many new article related on places in Bihar has to be started.
Bihar had many important tourist places like Bodh Gaya, Gaya, Nalanda, Patna, Vaisali etc, which are important to Buddhist tourists, who visit these sites every year in huge number. We need good tourist information guide for all these places. These articles should also convey information about the improved law and order situation in the state.
Manoj nav 06:05, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I think there is going to have to be a compromise here. Instead of erasing what was previously written here, it's probably better to qualify it, using phrases like, for example, "Bihar is often referred to as the armpit of India due to its inferior infrastructure and faults in government management, but for the determined traveller, Bihar does offer a number of sites which belie its rich history." Or, "Although its history has been overshadowed by blablabla, interested travellers will find some offbeat attractions" etc. To give a balanced view, I think the traveler needs to be aware of any lacking infrastructure or social/safety problems which may arise, yet we do need to describe the points of interest that it does have. Facts about crime indices, etc., are indeed facts and shouldn't be suppressed, and I think even the William Dalyrimple quote should stay. But it doesn't have to stop you from describing the good points as well. Texugo 07:36, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- This - ""Bihar is often referred to as the armpit of India due to its inferior infrastructure and faults in government management, but for the determined traveller, Bihar does offer a number of sites which belie its rich history." Or, "Although its history has been overshadowed by blablabla, interested travellers will find some offbeat attractions" , again is a rant.
- Who is William Dalyrimple and what makes his statement so important? His statement, even thought it might his truth, is just a rant. Have you visited Bihar? Do tourists visit Bihar to discover the poverty of the region? Tourists go there to see the land, monuments, to discover the people, to see farmlands, rivers, festivals and not the poverty. Who in this world is interested in other's poverty? William Dalyrimple's statement, which is in a bad tone, deserves no place here. Even if Bihar is the poorest place on the whole planet, so what? Is it a crime to be poor?
- I think the traveler needs to be aware of any lacking infrastructure or social/safety problems.? It should be there in the title safty, restricted to the fact that it helps the travelers.
- Users please stop using wikitravel to vomit your personal opinions and hate. Manoj nav 09:17, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I personally think it has a place here, I find it to be good writing actually, but feel free to continue the paragraphs with some pluses like...
- "...things have slowly improved recently, but there's still a long way to go. However the travellers who do venture here, are rewarded with a wealth of unique culture, impressive nature and friendly locals etc..."
- That's my take on it anyway --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 09:22, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I would like to forward a similar discussion, on the same topic, which took place on wikipedia - here .
- Dalrymple and a few others are known Bihar baiters whose writing should be taken in the right perspective. He has even denigrated the supreme sacrifice of the leader of the 1857 Mangal Pandey. Dalrymple comment is more in a bad tone. The circumstances in which he would have said this would be totally different. Manoj nav 09:50, 4 December 2008 (EST)
Instead of placing the following controversial section in the article, so that people can have a lot at it and discuss, it is better to have it in the discussion page it self.
Whatever index of prosperity and development you choose, Bihar comes triumphantly at the bottom. It has the lowest literacy, the highest number of deaths in police custody, the worst roads, the highest crime, the fewest cinemas. Its per capita income is less than half the Indian average. Not long ago it even had a major famine. -- William Dalrymple, The Age of Kali
Ancient Bihar was the birthplace of the Maurya Empire, the largest ever to rule the Indian subcontinent, and the site of the Buddha's enlightenment. Unfortunately the Maurya Empire collapsed in 185 BCE, and it's been downhill ever since. Struck by severe recession in the 1990s that saw Bihar become a byword for poverty, corruption and crime, things have slowly improved recently, but there's still a long way to go.
Why to place a controversial section in the article at all until there is a concencus? I am removing the controversial section.
Manoj nav 10:01, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- I have done some edit, hope everyone agrees. Manoj nav 11:02, 4 December 2008 (EST)
- OK, please try to listen to the points being made. You are essentially "fighting" a group of rather experienced users; me,Jpatokal, Texugo and WindHorse, while I haven't - I know some of these guys have travelled India quite extensively, and I hardly think you can disqualify all of us as "Bihar bashers". You should at least stop and consider that all of us are essentially saying the same thing; STOP fighting/disqualifying factual information (and good writing), and spend the passionate energy you obviously have for the place, on telling users why - despite the poor population, crumbling infrastructure, and caste uprisings - it's a fantastic place that they should go see - maybe look at some of the American states - like Alaska or Florida for inspiration. Considering this is the site of Buddha's enlightenment, and a pilgrimage destination as far as I can gather, there should be more than enough subjects to dive into... just remember that region articles should be mainly prose, and listings should go on the city articles. Stefan 02:16, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Experience on wikitravel doesn't necessarily means an experience on the topic Bihar. Anyways I never go for a self praise. Kindly verify before you call something factual information. Stereotypes are not factual informations. Using terms like 'crumbling infrastructure' shows your ignorance. There are lesser infrastructure like roads, airports, hospitals .. but it doesn't mean that they are crumbling. Manoj nav 02:45, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- My apologies, broadside warning, but I don't like being called ignorant. That is actually a quote from The Economist WP, which is a rather well respected publication; "...and chronic misrule that has led to crumbling infrastructure, collapsing education and health systems and evaporating law and order..." So go right ahead and call them ignorant, but leave me out of that, I clearly stated that I have never been to India, which I would think made it clear I was quoting other sources. And no, experience on WT doesn't make anyone an expert on a destination, but it sure does help on experience on how to write good guides - which was my whole point, which I'll state again; show both the good and the bad sides of a destination, from a travellers perspective (where a crumbling, inferior, lacking - or whatever you want to call it - infrastructure actually matters a great deal). Others seem to be doing quite well on the negative side, so you should focus on writing what's good about Bihar, instead of throwing up a big fuss about criticisms about your state - which judging from the number of people reporting on them - probably aren't grabbed out of thin air. The article can clearly be expanded, So why don't you write something about the culture, geography, how to get around, important festivals, Bihari, local dishes etc., that will prepare visitors on what to expect, guide them to the good stuff, and won't leave them disappointed. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:14, 6 December 2008 (EST)
- Look I have been too good till now. I don't have time to waste fighting with racist gangs to contribute for wikitravel. There to many other good websites, which genuine tourist can find. Please understand what I am saying. You guys have just ganged up. I felt that wikitravel would be a good website to share my experiences and so I came here. Lots of people do it during free time as hobbies. Manoj nav 11:42, 6 December 2008 (EST)
What is this if now a racist gang.. read the comments. These comments show the mentality of the writers.
- 08:50, 28 November 2008 Cacahuate (Talk | contribs) (2,466 bytes) (rvt, we don't gloss over the facts, bihar is a shithole by most estimations)
- Um.. This section is ... Texugo 02:10, 4 December 2008 (EST) - Nice way of starting a talk...
- someone is clearly trying to sell Bihar as a tourist destination, and while it has a couple points of interest, it's mostly just the butt of many jokes, and widely known as the armpit of India. I don't know that we should make it look quite that bad in the article, but I'll continue to revert edits that try to paint it as wonderland – cacahuate
- ..which one should we ditch?
Manoj nav 11:53, 6 December 2008 (EST)
- Well, you can call us facists for insisting on a certain way of doing things, like giving lively writing priority, over dry encyclopedic recitation (which seems to be what you are mostly offended by), and putting the traveller first, and over the sensitivities of natives... But, from what I know about myself and these other guys, I hardly think any of us qualifies as a racist. The Armpit of India and shithole is cacahuate's personal opinion, posted on the talk page as far as i gather, where i find a certain bluntness perfectly acceptable - If I had seen in the article, i would probably have deleted it.
- And I would love to have you sticking around and improving the guides, but if you are this easily offended, you are probably going to end up with heart attack sooner or later around here --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 14:04, 6 December 2008 (EST)
- I pity that you don't understand what racism means. Being an administrator on wikitravel you should know that even content on this talk page is covered under CC license if you can read on the page. Words like Armpit and shithole have been used here not for any individual offend but to offend a place and community. Atleast administrators should not make loose talks and encourage rant talking on wikitravel. Manoj nav 14:23, 6 December 2008 (EST)
There is one city too many listed, magic number is 9, which one should we ditch?
...is a historian, travel writer and journalist (WP) who has spent nearly two decades living in and covering India, and his books are mandatory reading for anybody who wants to even attempt to understand India. But the point of the quote is not his opinion, but the facts he states:
- Whatever index of prosperity and development you choose, Bihar comes triumphantly at the bottom. It has the lowest literacy, the highest number of deaths in police custody, the worst roads, the highest crime, the fewest cinemas. Its per capita income is less than half the Indian average. Not long ago it even had a major famine. -- William Dalrymple, The Age of Kali
If you disagree with that, then show me a state in India which has lower literacy, higher deaths in police custody, worse roads, higher crime or fewer cinemas than Bihar. Jpatokal 00:57, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- ...and oh, there actually is one factual inaccuracy in that. These days, Bihar's GDP per capita is not half the Indian average... it's one fifth ($148 vs $997). Jpatokal 01:05, 5 December 2008 (EST)
There are so many historians and so many journalists. I didn't even know about William Dalrymple before I ran into this discussion.
Higher crime : Rising crime graph in MP
As per the recently released annual report of the National Crime Records Bureau, the state has earned the dubious distinction of being the crime capital of the country for third consecutive time.
MP, Maharashtra top list of states reporting crimes
Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra have earned the dubious distinction of topping the list of states reporting the most number of crime
cases in the country, which registered over 19.89 lakh cases.
Our greatest achievement: longer lives : In terms of per capita income, the richest major state, Maharashtra is four times as rich as Bihar. Yet, life expectancy in Bihar (61 years) is only slightly behind that of Maharashtra (66.4 years). Bihar is almost on par with the national life expectancy of 62.7 years.
Number of deaths in police custody is not an index of prosperity and development, on the other hand life expectancy surely is.
Literacy : Dismissing the state as the most illiterate makes no sense. One should look at figures to see how there is a gradual increase in the literacy in last many years. -  . Women literacy has increased to 33.57% from 4.22% in last 50 years. On the other hand there are states like West Bengal , which were far better in the past. But now they are barely above Bihar.
These information should be given in right prospective and not in a biased way.
Cinemas : Move over Bollywood, here's Bhojpuri
The industry, catering to 200m people who speak the Bhojpuri language - a dialect of Hindi - and live in the states of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, is raking in cash like never before.
Sticking to home-grown Indian family melodramas and throwing in some glamorous faces and slick foreign locations for a contemporary feel, Bhojpuri films are often outperforming Bollywood biopics at the box office these days.
Manoj nav 01:34, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Apparently William Dalrymple statement appears to be false or outdated. Manoj nav 01:43, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Hi Jpatokal would you please enlighten the tourists about these information through the respective pages. Manoj nav 01:50, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Will the users here have the courtesy to remove William Dalrymple's comment? Manoj nav 06:19, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Actually, it looks like you agree with Dalrymple's assessment on everything except crime, no? And take a look at : Uttar Pradesh and Bihar have reported high number of incidence with 26,693 and 23,039 cases representing 12.4% and 10.7% respectively of the total violent crimes reported in the country during 2007. However, as Bihar has under half the population of UP, the actual incidence of crime is twice that of UP. Jpatokal 23:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- What I am saying is Dalrymple's comment is nothing but a racist rant. Crime is inclusive of violent crime, which is lower in Bihar. Manoj nav 11:33, 6 December 2008 (EST)
Poor image of Bihar
After independence , when India was falling into an autocratic rule during the regime of Indira Gandhi, the main thrust to the movement to hold elections came from Bihar under the leadership of Jaya Prakash Narayan.
This resulted in two things:
- The identity of Bihar (from the word Vihar meaning monasteries) representing a glorious past was lost. Its voice often used to get lost in the din of regional clamor of other states, specially the linguistic states like Uttar pradesh, Madhya pradesh etc.
- Bihar gained an anti-establishment image. The establishment oriented press often projected the state as indiscipline and anarchy.
Manoj nav 02:05, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Hi Manoj, I think you misunderstand my position... I have nothing against Bihar personally, I've visited it a couple of times. But surely, considering it's your homeland, you're aware that it doesn't have the best reputation, right? Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state, no? Anyway, I agree the page needs some work, it's still in its beginning stages... but if you help to improve it, you have to keep a realistic tone... while Bihar has a couple of sites of interest like Bodhgaya, it is definitely not Rajasthan. Also, we have different goals and writing style than you will find on Wikipedia... we write our guides from a travelers point of view, and we don't want to sell anything to anyone. We just want to write about Bihar as it is, good and bad, without over-hyping the good... in a way, similar to WP's policy of not giving it undue weight – cacahuate talk 03:10, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- 1. Most Indians advise to keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state, no? Bihari people face prejudice and racism in India. This is well know. And advices like the one you have mentioned reflects such prejudice. I don't think wikitravel is a place to spread stereotypes. I would say this - keep an eye on your bags as your train passes through the state holds for India and not just Bihar.
- 2. while Bihar has a couple of sites of interest like Bodhgaya, it is definitely not Rajasthan. Just because tourism department have sold something well, doesn't makes the state great. It's the tourism department which has to be appreciated. There are some Indian states who basic economy runs on tourism unlike Bihar where this sector has still not been explored. Manoj nav 03:30, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Re #1, you can call it prejudice and racism if you like, I call it a reputation, and it's our duty to inform the traveler of that reputation. I agree it applies to all of India as well, but it's of particular relevance to Bihar, or so the story goes.
- It's our duty to inform the traveler the truth and not stories and stereotypes. We should call spade a spade. If it is prejudice and racism, it should be called as it is. The travelers should be cautioned of any wrong information passed to them by non-Biharis. Let the travels decide what is useful them. Manoj nav 04:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Re #2, we cover places that are currently of interest to travelers, such as Bodhgaya. How and why it became of interest to the traveler isn't important... travelers go there, so we'll write an article about it and cover it accurately. As for the rest of Bihar, we aren't here to push tourism into new areas, so we shouldn't try to sell it as a destination when it isn't really one at the moment – cacahuate talk 04:01, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- we shouldn't try to sell : I never asked anyone to sell; if you can read the comment. I have just tried to clear an ignorance on a point which was unnecessarily raise by you. Manoj nav 04:18, 5 December 2008 (EST)
- Perfect, then it sounds like we're on the same page :) – cacahuate talk 04:27, 5 December 2008 (EST)
No body try to sell bihar as a tourist destination, whatever I have written it was the fact about bihar, it is a fact that Bihar is birth place of two religion(Bhuddhism, Jainism) and it has a glorius past because of major historical landmark like Patliputra, Bodhgaya, Rajgriha, Vaishali, Nalanda & Vikramshila.
It was a power centre in ancient days, even Patna was a major trading centre in middle era(during Mughal), even British ruler also understand the strategic importance of patna thats why they made Patna as a capital of Bihar/Orissa in 1912AD.
Now a days Patna is a major business centre in eastern India, it is growing as a major education hub as IIT/NIFT/NIPER/NIT like institution has come up here so Pls. do'nt disgrace Bihar/patna.
- Hi Piyush, nobody is trying to disgrace Bihar, but we have to describe it as is, from the point of view of a traveler. Most of the things you mention above are more relevant to Wikipedia than here... I'm happy the education and business are improving, but that doesn't really concern the traveler. This article could definitely use some expansion and improvements though, but just be careful to not try and make it look too sunny sunny, it has to reflect the current reality – cacahuate talk 14:17, 5 December 2008 (EST)