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(removal of the Cafes section)
(removal of the Cafes section)
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:::Here is my question: Seeing as how Starbucks has over 13,000 locations in 42 countries and continues to open an average of 7 new stores a day, would it be OK with you to ''mention'' Starbucks in the articles of every city that has one? Really? Because if not, why should it be mentioned here in this case? To me the precedent this sets seems to imply that if it's OK for a city as big and with as many options as Barcelona, then we might as well mention it in every mediocre middling-size city in Japan, Thailand, South Korea, etc... Personally, I ''really'' don't want to see that slippery slope.  
 
:::Here is my question: Seeing as how Starbucks has over 13,000 locations in 42 countries and continues to open an average of 7 new stores a day, would it be OK with you to ''mention'' Starbucks in the articles of every city that has one? Really? Because if not, why should it be mentioned here in this case? To me the precedent this sets seems to imply that if it's OK for a city as big and with as many options as Barcelona, then we might as well mention it in every mediocre middling-size city in Japan, Thailand, South Korea, etc... Personally, I ''really'' don't want to see that slippery slope.  
 
:::Another thing, I think Denis's first argument about listing it for ''those who want a brand they know'' is fallacious and a rather counter-productive attitude for a guidebook to have. For one, it could serve as an argument to list every McDonald's, Outback Steakhouse, TGI Fridays, and Pizza Hut in the world just so people can have ''food they trust''. However, while we certainly want to offer a couple of comfort food options for, say, the weary traveller who is tired of eating pickled fish penis and seaweed all the way across the Japanese countryside, we ''still'' try to avoid pointing people towards international mega-chains in the Japan articles. I remain unconvinced that we need to cater to the sorry bloke back in Barcelona whose day is going to be ruined if his morning coffee isn't from Starbucks. If people are ''that'' afraid to try new things, maybe they should just stay home. At any rate, I'd rather write guides that emphasize good things to try that ''can't'' be found just anywhere. Besides, with 17 Starbucks locations in mostly the more-trafficked areas of Barcelona, I find it unlikely that anyone could spend more than a few hours there without happening across one anyway. [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] 19:07, 11 December 2007 (EST)
 
:::Another thing, I think Denis's first argument about listing it for ''those who want a brand they know'' is fallacious and a rather counter-productive attitude for a guidebook to have. For one, it could serve as an argument to list every McDonald's, Outback Steakhouse, TGI Fridays, and Pizza Hut in the world just so people can have ''food they trust''. However, while we certainly want to offer a couple of comfort food options for, say, the weary traveller who is tired of eating pickled fish penis and seaweed all the way across the Japanese countryside, we ''still'' try to avoid pointing people towards international mega-chains in the Japan articles. I remain unconvinced that we need to cater to the sorry bloke back in Barcelona whose day is going to be ruined if his morning coffee isn't from Starbucks. If people are ''that'' afraid to try new things, maybe they should just stay home. At any rate, I'd rather write guides that emphasize good things to try that ''can't'' be found just anywhere. Besides, with 17 Starbucks locations in mostly the more-trafficked areas of Barcelona, I find it unlikely that anyone could spend more than a few hours there without happening across one anyway. [[User:Texugo|Texugo]] 19:07, 11 December 2007 (EST)
 +
::::I agreed that it was pointless; sorry I'm not as emphatic in my dislike for it. - [[User:TVerBeek|Todd VerBeek]] 19:35, 11 December 2007 (EST)

Revision as of 00:39, 12 December 2007

Contents

Link to Virtual tour through Barcelona?

What you think about a link to this page? The page is part of the WorldFlicks site. It shows Barcelona on Google-Maps, with user-selected photos from the highlights of the city projected on map. It is perfect for a virtual tour through the city.

My suggestion: put a link under 'See', for example "Visit Barcelona [1], a virtual tour through the city". I think this link would give value for people who want to visit Barcelona. What do you think? RonaldR 07:59, 6 November 2007 (EST)

See Wikitravel:External Links for Why Not. --DenisYurkin 16:58, 6 November 2007 (EST)

quality of hotel/hostel/hostal recommendations

Some hotel recommendations sound overly positive and are not very informative. Sometimes you wonder if it's not plain publicity. Can those familiar with the places edit the paragraphs, add more information and give more "objective" ratings?


hotels and restaurant by quarter

Hi everybody, I think that the hotels and restaurants should go in their quarter page, except the ones that haven't got it. If not, people won't find them (there are restaurants in Old town, Barceloneta, Gracia and Barcelona's main page.... I'll move them in some days, if nobody has another opinion. -pstng

I think that sounds great. It might be worth looking at the huge city article template for some ideas about how to split up info between the city page and the district pages. For example, it might be worth pointing out some good districts to eat in, or some notable restaurants, in Barcelona#Eat, but leave the full restaurant listing for the district pages.
Thanks for continuing to do a great job on this city! --Evan 15:45, 29 Jun 2004 (EDT)

Bus route website

I tried the mobilitat.net URL and got redirected to a page on la Generalitat saying "URL inexistent". Anyone know where it went? -phma 23:55, 14 Jul 2005 (EDT) A great deal of info on Barcelona´s public transport, including busses, can be found at www.tmb.es (Transports Metropolitans de Barcelona)

Thieves

Hi all. I was with my parents in Barcelona and we were driving around looking for a hotel and stopped at some traffic lights, when suddenly two thieves came up to the door - one was the distraction and opened the doors on the right side of the car (didn't steal anything) and the other quietly open the door on the left side and stole my bag: I lost my camera and mobile. It could have been worse but we were really shaken after that and left the city immediately (reported it to the police after that).

Lesson learnt: always lock the car doors, even when you're inside the car Aidan 07:23, 10 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Be a bit careful while riding around the centre, especially aqround Via Laietana. Avoid small, dark and alone streets in the centre at night. Barcelona is not a dangerous city at all, but, as with all the big touristic spots, you need to be a bit aware.

Maccy Dees

Someone has just listed McDonald's as a viable choice for lunch in Barcelona. That's great! I bet everyone goes to Catalunya eager to taste the unique flavour of the Spanish Quarter Pound. Mind you: KFC's and even Hard Rock Cafe have made their way into Barcelona too. You'll never feel hungry again!

Apartment rentals

So I was trying to edit out the first person ad-like text in the apartment rental sections and I decided that I'm not sure if any of this content is appropriate for us. They seem like secondary sources and I dont have a good/quick way to tell which are legit. Comments/ Suggestions? Majnoona 13:44, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)

Below are a few agencies to book online with good selections:

  • Freestanza Barcelona Apartments Cheap and stylish apartments for rent in Barcelona's Gothic quarter and the beach. Portfollio of carefully selected vacation rentals perfect to enjoy a chilled-out stay right by the Mediterranean. Friendly service and Booking Online.
  • Way2stay Barcelona Apartments Way2stay present you a wide range of apartments in some of Barcelona’s finest central locations. Each Barcelona apartment is fully equipped with all modern conveniences to enjoy a quality time in an attractive apartment.
  • Barcelona Apartments Destination BCN offers nicely designed, well priced quality apartments to rent by days or weeks in the centre of Barcelona.
  • Barcelona Suite Photos, detailed descriptions and online booking for apartments near the beach, city center and countryside. They provide information and customer support on demand throughout your entire stay.
  • Habitat Apartments Quality holiday apartments in central Barcelona. All apartments are recently and tastefully decorated, and are located within a short distance of La Rambla, Plaça de Catalunya and the Gothic Quarter.
  • BarcelonaPoint.com How wonderful it is to experience Barcelona! Enjoy a true Barcelona living experience by renting a holiday apartment. Many apartments to choose from with categories like economical, luxuray, family and backpacker.
  • RentTheSun.com Over 100 beautiful self catering apartments in Barcelona located within walking distance to La Rambla. Last minute offers also available.
  • RentbyDays.com
  • Cocoon Barcelona.com Here is the perfect apartment to put your luggage down: full comfort in the heart of Barcelona (from 25 Eur/pers/night). With each flat, a mini-guide of the neighbourhood, great tips and addresses… For an unforgettable stay!
  • rental apartments Barcelona Book online your apartments in Barcelona, next to the Ramblas and the principal centers of interest of the city.


Luxury apartments for rent in quality neigbourhood of Barcelona. Excellent for Businessmen or family travles. Contact us for costumized service.



Dear [User:Maj|Majnoona] I think that list of directory could be interesting for visitors!!!

If you read Wikitravel:External links it says to only use primary sources. I think the problem that Majnoona has here is she cannot tell the businesses that are actually renting the appartments from those that are just advertising the appartments and seeking an (extra?) commission as a finders fee for any traveler that blunders into them. What is just as interesting is trying to use a google search to find a holiday apartment/accommodation somewhere and having to wade through all the trash the advertisers put out. As a result the truly legitimate businesses that actually personally rent accommodation get buried because they cannot be identified. -- Huttite 15:52, 29 Dec 2005 (EST)
Apartment listings are a hard one-- there's been some talk on the irc channel, but no real solutions as to how to put together a policy that distinguishes between what we want and what we dont (it's one of those 'I know it when I see it' deals). So we're leaning on the side of not allowing any apartment listins, just noting for travelers that this option exists/is popular. We're not looking to replace google search or yahoo directory... Majnoona 10:26, 16 Feb 2006 (EST)
I went ahead and blew away the apartment listings. The problem I see with them is that it's a magnet for people who are more interested in getting that commission, and not in improving Wikitravel. Jonboy 12:25, 21 Feb 2006 (EST)

I have deleted some sources that are just advertising apartmetns and seeking an extra commission

Local tips

Does anyone know of any page that is NOT dedicated at all those tourist crowds? Sort of a website for 'locals' in Barcelona. I only know of A Brighter Place , which is website for students in Barcelona with interesting news articles and insider tips on where to eat and drink cheap in Barcelona, away from the tourist crowds and with the locals. Any other site?

http://www.xbarcelona.com/ http://www.barcelona-metropolitan.com/ http://www.bcn-inside.com/

I like xbarcelona... but the barcelona metropolitan? written by guiris, for guiris.. they do lunch at mcdonalds, coffee at starbucks and dinner in shoko... followed by some dancing in baja beach! whoever put that link must be joking...

LeCool is a good weekly guide with lots of valuable tips on parties, music, cultural events, exhibitions, fashion and so on, mainly used by locals or people living here http://lecool.com/newsletter.php?city=1&lang=ENG

Another interesting city guide, focused on the hype places to go (including bars and restaurants) http://www.anewcityguide.com/barcelona

A few new headers

I have added a few provisional new topics including travel to and from Barcelona. I was looking for information regarding how to get from the airport to the city. Also information about hospitals and health care.Please feel free to fill the information.Sulfis 07:35, 13 August 2006 (EDT)

Eat

Oh, please "Barcelona has some of the best restaurants and cafes in Europe" is clearly false to anyone who has been there. It's actually quite difficult to find good food in Barcelona. It is well worth the effort to look as I have had one amazing meal in Barcelona, but you could just as well enjoy eating poor quality sandwitches & drinking a lot of Cava which costs almost nothing at cute & sociable Cava bars.

Please feel free to make changes to the guide so that it is more accurate.

Protection

I've temporarily protected this page, mostly in the hope of getting an editor's attention. Wikitravel:Accommodation listings details the criteria for listing an apartment rental agency in a Wikitravel article, and explains why edits have been (repeatedly) reverted. Another sysop should un-protect this page as soon as it is reasonable to do so. -- Ryan (talk) 03:35, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Useful phrases?

I was in Barcelona a few days ago and I thought it would be useful if this page gave information on useful Spanish and Catalan phrases. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.250.157.204 (talkcontribs)

It does... it links to our Spanish and Catalan phrasebooks... see Barcelona#Languagecacahuate talk 20:01, 6 August 2007 (EDT)

district borders

Barcelona article is divided into districts. Can someone define borders for the districts used? We need to have a consensus on district borders to be sure everyone uses the same district name for the same area of the city. When we have a consensus, I'd propose to include district borders definition into Barcelona#Districts, as Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy#Districts in cities suggests. --DenisYurkin 17:12, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

The following set of districts was recently added to the article. I reverted the edit--let's discuss it here first:

Barcelona is divided into 10 districts, but the most important and interesting for visitors are:
  • Ciutat Vella - Barcelona's old town, including the medieval Barri Gotic, plus the seafront area of Barceloneta
  • Eixample - modernist quarter, noted for its art nouveau buildings
  • Gràcia - historically a working class neighborhood, now rather gentrified, and very lively
  • Sants-Montjuïc - includes Estadi Olímpic Lluís Companys, the Magic Fountains and the Poble Espanyol
The other districts are:

First of all, can we define borders for the districts that we already have in the first place--Ciutat Vella, Eixample, Gràcia, Barceloneta?

After defining borders for them we can proceed to adding articles on the rest of the districts. --DenisYurkin 18:07, 27 September 2007 (EDT)

i just inserted sants by mistake... not sants-montjuic.. but i think it's better to keep a seperate page for mountjuic anyway, which is more "do" then barrio.. i guess it's pretty easy to seperate ciutat vella (everything in the gothic centre..) from eixample (south of diagonal) and gracia (north of it..). i don't know whether it makes sense to add non-touristic barris like horta etc.
nagchampa 18:16, 2 October 2007 (EDT)
Thanks for your ideas on Ciutat Vella, Eixample and Gracia. But what exactly is "Gothic Centre" then--what borders does it have? Maybe, by which streets is it bordered?
And do you have ideas on Barceloneta--where are borders between it and other district(s)?
As for Sants and Montjuic: we still don't have borders for them, your suggestions? ;-)
Until we reach some consensus on district list and borders, please don't add new districts to the article (and I reverted Sants for a while). It's always easy to create a bunch of new articles, but it's really hard work to rework existing articles if we change our mind on list of districts or borders between them. So let's reach a consensus first.
--DenisYurkin 04:52, 3 October 2007 (EDT)
Hi there, here's some clarification about the districts (please someone correct the english):
1- Ciutat Vella: The historic district, circled by walls until 1859, and today circled by -looking at the map from left to right-: Avda Paral·lel, Ronda de sant Pau, Ronda de sant Antoni, Plaça Universitat, Carrer Pelai, Plaça Catalunya, Ronda de Sant Pere, Plaça Urquinaona, Carrer de Trafalgar, Passeig Lluis Companys, the Ciutadella Park, and the sea on the South.
It's divided into 4 parts: from La Rambla to the west it's called the Raval: the working class part of the old city. In the center, from La Rambla to the east until Via Layetana, we found the Gothic Quarter: It's the oldest part, with the goverment and the city hall main buildings, and lots of palaces and gorgeus noble houses. To the east of Via Layetana, we have La Rivera quarter, it was the medieval expansion of the city and it's mainly a popular neighbourhood with some of the finest churches (Santa Maria del Mar, Sant Pere) and the modernist esplosion of El Palau de la Musica Catalana. To the south we can find La Barceloneta, it's the newest part of the old district. Was mainly a fishmen neighbourhood, created in the XVII century to relocate the people that had to leave La Rivera when the construction of the Ciutadella Park.
I will try to visualize these quarters as well, bit later. --DenisYurkin 13:49, 21 October 2007 (EDT)
I've just updated the map--split Ciutat Vella into quarters; it can be seen at the same address at Google Maps. --DenisYurkin 15:49, 10 November 2007 (EST)
2- Eixample: The modern Barcelona was born here. District planned by the urbanist Ildefons Cerdà. During the burstling XIX century, the walls of the city were tore down. As a result of the economic prosperity and following Cerda's design, the Eixample assembles a huge amount of modernist and deco buildings unrivalled anywhere else in Europe (some of the best known: La Sagrada Familia, La Pedrera (Casa Mila), Casa Batlló, Casa Lleó Morera).
The district is north of Ciutat vella, limited (from left to right in the map) by: Avda Paral·lel, Carrer de Tarragona, Avda Josep Tarradellas, Avda Diagonal, Carrer de Corsega, Carrer de Dos de Maig, Avda Meridiana and the borders of Ciutat Vella again on the south.
3- Gracia: Independent village until 1897, narrow streets and tiny squares, before farmers and artisans, now a very young, left wing, full of artists and political activists. Always a couple of political meetings, an exhipbition, a concert and a street market going on at the same time. You can also find, in the north the famous Park Güell.
Gracia is limited on the south by Avda Diagonal, and carrer de Corsega. In the east by Carrer Gran de Gracia, Carrer Republica Argentina and Avda de l'Hospital Militar and on the west by Carrer Sardenya.
Hope this is helpful, I'll be adding the rest of the neighbourhoods if you think it's helpful. Regards. --Oriolbcn
Thanks for great work, Oriolbcn! --DenisYurkin 15:23, 10 November 2007 (EST)

questions

I've tried to visualize these borders at Google Maps, here's the result. Does it look like what Oriolbcn meant?

Update: (28.11.2007) As Google Maps allows to collaborate on user maps, I can share it for further edits--just leave your email address at gmail here.

De-coding guides by Oriolbcn gave me some questions, however: Ciutat Vella:

  • does it include Placa de Catalunya?
  • does it include Plaça Universitat?
  • which part of the seaside area is included? Moll de Ponent? Moll 18A/Moll18C? Passeig Escullera? Maremagnum? Marina Village? Moda Shopping Port Olympic? All of them?

Gracia is missing northern border--where it should be? Overall, if you find any mistakes in showing Oriolbcn instructions on the map -- please let me know. --DenisYurkin 16:41, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

Hey there, regarding your questions:
  • Ciutat Vella:
    • Plaça Catalunya is not included (only the southern border of the square)
    • Plaça Universitat is also not included (only the southern border of the square)
    • Seaside area: all is ciutat vella except Port Olimpic.
  • Gracia:
    • The northern border is more or less where you drew it. The city up there is a little bit unclear to me...
The rest is perfect. --Oriolbcn 23:14, 3 december 2007
I've just updated the map to reflect these changes. Anything else needs to be changed?
And what about borders of Barceloneta? See the paragraph below. --DenisYurkin 13:43, 4 December 2007 (EST)

Where exactly is the border of La Barceloneta? Where is it on northern-west? And for seaside area, same questions as for Ciutat Vella as a whole: which of these should be included: Moll de Ponent, Moll 18A/Moll18C, Passeig Escullera, Maremagnum, Marina Village, Moda Shopping Port Olympic, all of them? --DenisYurkin 13:49, 21 October 2007 (EDT)


BTW, recently I've found a reference to official division at Wikipedia:

> The current division of the city in different districts was approved in 1984.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Districts_of_Barcelona

Any idea how we can find the document mentioned, and use its borders at Wikitravel? --DenisYurkin 13:51, 4 December 2007 (EST)

why Harbour aerial tramway moved to Barceloneta?

I wonder why "Harbour aerial tramway" info was moved to Barceloneta article from Barcelona.

Am I right that it can be both from Montjuic and Barceloneta, as well as from the mid-point in the downtown? If so, it would look more natural to have detailed info in the Barcelona article, while only providing brief mentions on it in the respective district articles. --DenisYurkin 17:11, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

Barcelona's cuisine is hit-or-miss

Barcelona's cuisine is hit-or-miss

What exactly is meant by this? Can we say the same with simpler words without changing the meaning? --DenisYurkin 17:27, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

price ranges

This guide uses the following price ranges for a typical meal for one, including soft drink:

What should we call a typical meal for Barcelona? Is it menu del dia, or a main course (in the same place, price for simplest pasta can be different from a large steak fivefold), or something else? I would vote for menu del dia when a cafe/restaurant has it, and when it haven't, choose some reference plate like paella which can be found in most places. Comments, please? --DenisYurkin 17:38, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

districtifying Sleep section

Recently I talked to Oriolbcn and he contributed the following contribution on how to districtify the Sleep section. Oriolbcn has also performed most of the work on moving listings into their districts; today I finished with that.

Please share your comments if there's anything wrong or could be improved. --DenisYurkin 13:31, 19 September 2007 (EDT)


Hi Denis, as it's suggested in the "contribute" part of the wikitravel rules for business owners, i'm giving you (as oposite to change it myself) the list of all hotels, hostels, etc. listed on the main article that should be placed in the different districts:

BTW, what exactly made you think that you can't contribute yourself? Was it this piece?
One thing we ask you never to do is to remove information about your competitors.
But it's only about removal of other listings. Anyway, if it causes confusion and allows misreading, please help us to improve the WelcomeBizOwners page that I referred you to. --DenisYurkin 16:10, 20 September 2007 (EDT)

HOTELS:

  • Abba Sans Hotel: Eixample
  • Best Western Premier Hotel Regina: Eixample
  • Grand Hotel Central: Ciutat Vella
  • Granados 83: Eixample
  • HCC Covadonga: Eixample (in this case it's Sarria St Gervasi, for 10 metres but as this district is not listed...)
  • Hotel Barcelona Catedral: Ciutat Vella
  • Hotel Contado: Eixample (Same as Covadonga: it's Sarria St. Gervasi, for 50 metres...)
  • Hotel Cuatro Naciones: Ciutat Vella
  • Hotel Lloret: Ciutat Vella
  • Hotel Gran Via: Eixample
  • Hotel Lleó: Ciutat Vella
  • Hotel Omm: Eixample
  • Hotel Silken Concordia: Eixample (Same as a couple before, this is Poble Sec distric, but just for 10 meters)
  • The Royal Ramblas: Ciutat Vella

APARTMENTS:

All of them except the following cannot be located as they are agencies offering apartments in different locations

  • Apartments Tasmania: Ciutat Vella
  • Aparthotel Silver: Gracia

HOSTAL & PENSION:

  • Pensión Norma: Gracia
  • Pension Alamar: Ciutat Vella
  • Hostal Levante: Ciutat Vella
  • Athome Barcelona Apartments: THIS IS AN APARTMENT AGENCY
  • Nice Barcelona Bed and Breakfast: THIS IS AN AGENCY ALSO
  • Las Ramblas Bed & Breakfast: Ciutat Vella
  • Hostal Barcelona City Centre: Eixample
  • Pension Barcelona City Ramblas: Ciutat Vella
  • Guesthouse Barcelona City Urquinaona: Eixample
  • Barcelona City North: Sarria St Gervasi (sorry this is too much inside this district to call it otherwise... maybe gracia)

HOSTELS:

  • Bohemia Barcelona: Eixample (this shouldn't be called a hostel though, as it has a "Pension" license)
If it does affect traveller in any way, we should mention it. But how it does, in fact? --DenisYurkin 13:46, 19 September 2007 (EDT)
Well this is tricky, it affects the definition of a hostel and a pension, and in some cases the border between them can be quite blurry... I guess it depends on the spirit of the place, more like a hotel: nobody talks and meets nobody, or it's a more comunal place where travellers share their experiences, etc. In the end is how they want to define themselves, or the person who wrote the description feels the kind of place it is... I guess we should leave it as it is... Oriolbcn


  • Residencia Australia and Hostal Central: Ciutat Vella (same thing as before, their license is a "student residence" for the first and a "pension" for the other.
  • The Welcome INN: Ciutat Vella
  • Itaca: Ciutat Vella
  • Kabul: Ciutat Vella (as it's stated in the same description)
  • Pere Tarrés Youth Hostel: Eixample

Regards, --User:Oriolbcn


Oriolbcn, do you mean that we'd better have "Sarria St. Gervasi" district for these items: HCC Covadonga, Hotel Contado, Barcelona City North? And "Poble Sec" for Hotel Silken Concordia? --DenisYurkin 13:46, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

This is also tricky... I'm not sure I have an answer... In Barcelona there are a number of districts apart from the 4 that are listed in the article. I'm preparing a description of them all with the official borders to share with you when finished... However in terms of giving useful information to the visitor, even if those hotels are "legally" in another distric, they are so close to the better known one that it might be more informative to name the better known name than the other... I don't know... In some of the cases above the difference is being on one side of the street or on the other!... What do you think? --Oriolbcn
I guess that for now it's OK to stick these businesses to the nearest district we have.
And yes, we absolutely need suggestions on how we can define district borders. Maybe you can share what you already have, even if not all districts are covered yet? It will really help to start a discussion towards reaching consensus. --DenisYurkin 15:03, 29 September 2007 (EDT)

Els Quatre Gats

I removed the following piece on Els Quatre Gats until we reach some consensus:

> In should be a tourist trap - but it isn't

I've been in Els Quatre Gats, and found nothing that make it NOT a tourist trap. What was the reason for such a characteristic? --DenisYurkin 08:13, 10 November 2007 (EST)

removal of the Cafes section

I disagree with removal of Cafes section, as it IS helpful for traveller:

  • it is useful to know that StarBucks IS available in the city--for those who find easier to trust the brand he knows rather than going through trial-and-mistake with local cafes
  • before we have a good coverage of proven local cafes in the region, it's better to list Star Bucks than to list nothing
  • it is as NOT ubiquitous as it normally is--so those who normally rely on it in other cities can't always be sure it's easy to find, and thus either should have other recommended places in hand, or should be ready to walk long enough to reach the nearest SB

As for Capuccino:

  • it IS ubiquitos
  • it looks attractive enough to try when there's nothing else to try. For example, in Born area one expects that Starbucks should be there, but it is not. So he tends to try Capuccino--and the experience shows he shouldn't, but should seek other place.
  • we have the following mention in the avoidance policy: If a destination has only a few reviews (or a few accommodation options), and some are negative, do not delete them — some information is better than none.

I can think about making the text less advertising, but I disagree that these facts should have completely no coverage. --DenisYurkin 17:15, 8 December 2007 (EST)

Regarding Starbuck's, I'm going to stick to my guns here and say it is totally unnecessary. In all of Wikitravel there are currently only 12 articles which even contain a mention of Starbuck's. Not even all of those actually list Starbuck's in the Drink section, and I'd say none of them should, as they are all just random places which happen to have a Starbuck's. I feel Starbuck's to be in the same boat as McDonald's or Pizza Hut when it comes to desirability of listing. With regard to the negative listing of Capuccino, I'd also still say to axe it, though my feeling isn't quite as strong as with Starbuck's. I'd say axe it though, because 1) there are at least 3 other positive cafe recommendations in the district articles, and 2) Cafes is not an official mandatory section header in the first place. Because of these 2 things, I don't believe it really qualifies for the exception mentioned in the avoidance policy. Texugo 21:09, 9 December 2007 (EST)

-bump

I think that mentioning Starbucks (rather than a listing) is mostly harmless, but also a bit pointless if they're as ubiquitous in W.Europe as Mickey D's. Similarly, mentioning Capuccino as a low-quality local chain would stop short of an outright "avoid" listing, while still providing arguably useful info to the traveler. - Todd VerBeek 11:58, 11 December 2007 (EST)
Here is my question: Seeing as how Starbucks has over 13,000 locations in 42 countries and continues to open an average of 7 new stores a day, would it be OK with you to mention Starbucks in the articles of every city that has one? Really? Because if not, why should it be mentioned here in this case? To me the precedent this sets seems to imply that if it's OK for a city as big and with as many options as Barcelona, then we might as well mention it in every mediocre middling-size city in Japan, Thailand, South Korea, etc... Personally, I really don't want to see that slippery slope.
Another thing, I think Denis's first argument about listing it for those who want a brand they know is fallacious and a rather counter-productive attitude for a guidebook to have. For one, it could serve as an argument to list every McDonald's, Outback Steakhouse, TGI Fridays, and Pizza Hut in the world just so people can have food they trust. However, while we certainly want to offer a couple of comfort food options for, say, the weary traveller who is tired of eating pickled fish penis and seaweed all the way across the Japanese countryside, we still try to avoid pointing people towards international mega-chains in the Japan articles. I remain unconvinced that we need to cater to the sorry bloke back in Barcelona whose day is going to be ruined if his morning coffee isn't from Starbucks. If people are that afraid to try new things, maybe they should just stay home. At any rate, I'd rather write guides that emphasize good things to try that can't be found just anywhere. Besides, with 17 Starbucks locations in mostly the more-trafficked areas of Barcelona, I find it unlikely that anyone could spend more than a few hours there without happening across one anyway. Texugo 19:07, 11 December 2007 (EST)
I agreed that it was pointless; sorry I'm not as emphatic in my dislike for it. - Todd VerBeek 19:35, 11 December 2007 (EST)

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