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Talk:Bali

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Revision as of 04:19, 8 March 2010 by Burmesedays (Talk | contribs)

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Any one has experience in renting vacation villas or long-terms stay possibilities in Bali? Also interested in "home stay".


I would like to be able to add "Bali by Bicycle" http://users.chariot.net.au/~gloria/indonesia.htm

as an external link..but there is no box for this ! Any advice for a new user ?

It's great that you have something like that. If you want to develop it into a travel topic article here at Wikitravel, that might work. But we don't generally link to other sites except stuff like a Hotel's own website. Good luck with your endeavours.-- Colin 23:51, 1 June 2006 (EDT)
Also, if the content at the Bali by Bicycle page was written by you, you are free to copy it here -- it will then become a part of Wikitravel. Jpatokal 23:59, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

Map

I can't really see where Bali is on the map (it's the light green one). I'm not much of a picture editor - can someone fix it, maybe paint it a different color? Not sure what the standards are for this.--justfred 13:15, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

I just upgraded to usableregion status for the Bali page. It seemed a bit cheap to keep it at outline status with all the information that is on it. Cheers The Snackmaster 07:02, 8 May 2007 (EDT)


True, the current map does not make Bali visible ! (Feb 2008)

Spas

After having read the comments on the spa page http://wikitravel.org/en/Spas I figured that this would be the best page to include the entries for Hyatt's 2 spas in Bali. Hyatt has some wonderful spas all over the world, so I'll post some more in the relevant destination pages, assuming no one objects...? Christiantc 07:08, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Please place them in the correct towns, not the main page. And you mispelled "Hyatt" =) Jpatokal 07:29, 4 October 2007 (EDT)
Thanks for the feedback. Will do Christiantc 08:54, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Buy

Suggest knowledgeable contributors make appropriate entries for this major topic. Most other travel sources wax extensively about shopping opportunities there and need for bargaining.


Advertisements

The Bali article and several sub-article "suffer" from advertisements from hostel and hotel. They are usually written in broken English. Please have a look as some guys seem to re-insert their ads we I delete them. Any ideas to handle this? Jc8136 07:59, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Nuke 'em all and add them to the blacklist if they're really persistent. Jpatokal 10:11, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Layout Bali

The general Bali page is in very bad shape as some vandals seem to have pleasure in destroying that page. Please help to turn it in a porper shape Jc8136 09:49, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

Perhaps one example is the editing link for Get In - By Boat. Takes you to wrong location.

Regions

Anyone know Bali well enough to figure out a proper WT region structure for it? It's currently a mess.... including articles for mountains and temples! – cacahuate talk 23:44, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

sure is a bit of a mess. I will have a look at the region articles/structure and try to instill some clarity. Not sure that the region templates make sense though as so much of the required templated info is already there on other pages. To get each region template up to speed would require a hell of lot of repitition of info already on other pages. --Burmesedays 10:40, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
Looks like Globe-trotter plunged ahead last month and created the regions already? For reference, here are the old definitions, we really need a map to match. Jpatokal 12:32, 2 September 2009 (EDT)
Yes indeed. Are we happy with the "Regions", "Cities" and "Other Destination" format though? I ask only because so much of the information required on the template for each of those sub articles is superfluous. Bali is a small island and Understand, Get in, Get around, Do(to a large extent), Stay safe, Get Out will be the same information for each region bar the islands which already have their own dedicated articles. I can certainly help with a lot of information here but some guidance is required as to how we want the logic of this article to work. --Burmesedays 01:55, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
I know Bali a bit and rewrote the Kuta article a while ago. So far I stayed away from the regions because its a hell of work to restructure it... I propose we find a sound split between the three main tourist areas (Kuta/Legian/Seminyak, Bukit Island and the Sanur area), Ubud and the so far less developed touristic rest of the island. Burmeseday: I understand your concern about double infos. Keep the exact data in the town/temple articles. The regional articles should in general allow an overview of the region and less exact data. The focus is more on how the region is connected to the other regions on Bali. jan 03:18, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
All good advice guys and thanks. I will work through the destination articles and expand them in time. Will also try to get the regional aticles up to speed (including a MAP, yes Jani :) ). Did a little bit of work on Jimbaran which was already pretty good and changed the status of that article to usable. --Burmesedays 10:30, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
Have done a rigorous search and all existing Bali articles are now reflected in the region categories in the main article. There are no obvious ones missing.--Burmesedays 11:10, 6 September 2009 (EDT)

I have drawn and added a map showing the regions of Bali as per Wikitravel definitions and colour coding. --Burmesedays 10:44, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

Looks good! Just add some cities and we could use it on the Bali page :) Globe-trotter 17:58, 9 September 2009 (EDT)
Yup. It is still a work in progress. I will certainly add the major towns/tourist destinations later today. There are also a bound to be folks who disagree with the regional boundary lines...... just a warning :) --Burmesedays 21:45, 9 September 2009 (EDT)


please have a look now. Have added major place name labels. I think that is enough destinations to make the regional map both clear and worthwhile. --Burmesedays 02:42, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

With the couple of new ones I have created in the past week, there are now 31 Bali destination articles. Any suggestions for others? I will get around to Klungkung (Semarapura) right away. In the past Munduk has been suggested but I think that should be covered under Bedugul. There are several sizeable towns that do not have articles (Tabanan, Gianyar and Karangasem are the most obvious ones) but these are of limited interest to visitors. --Burmesedays 10:13, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Also Globe-trotter's recent edit to Pemuteran has made me realise that each of the 31 articles should have their IsPartOf or IsIn changed to reflect their assigned region....... Good spot. --Burmesedays 10:13, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Where did you get the regional boundaries? Are they official? If they are arbitrary perhaps straight lines would be better. Cheers. -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 11:06, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Deinitely arbitrary and not official; designed to be traveller-friendly. Originally the lines were straight but they were changed for aesthetic reasons - straight lines on maps do not look too good.
Yes, please see wts:Image talk:Bali regions map.png. They are literal, though, and cut through "empty" territory (i.e., there cannot be any questions of what to put where). Some of the more pronounced curves are result of my drawing them (somewhat arbitrarily) around various geography, like rivers. --Peter Talk 11:13, 22 November 2009 (EST)

Bali Culture

A key reason why Bali s such a popular tourist destination is its culture. There are a few cultural snippets in the article but not enough IMHO. Certainly not enough when compared to the enormous amount of private villa listings for example... yawn :). I will expand this in the appropriate places.

I also want to write a piece on the Bali Aga for Wikitravel focusing on a truly unique cultural tourism experience. See for example [1] and [2]. Any thoughts on where that piece should live in the Bali article? --Burmesedays 12:28, 5 September 2009 (EDT)

I decided to put the piece about the Bali Aga in an information box here: Candidasa.--Burmesedays 03:28, 6 September 2009 (EDT)
I think the box is way to big for the Candidasa article and does not do justice the importance of Aga. I will to introduce some Respect/Understand chapter. Please have a look if you agree. jan 09:51, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
I think that is fine jan. Either way really. Perhaps the info box made it stand out more as something special? It was rather large though I agree. No problem either way. I have done a LOT of work on tidying up the main Bali article by the way.... --Burmesedays 12:04, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
Burmeseday, I have seen that you have been busy editing on the Bali article and several others and its very much appreciated. Jani and myself were pretty much alone in the last year to keep the articles readible. Thanks for the feedback,jan 16:16, 8 September 2009 (EDT)

Bali Articles - some suggestions

1. Tanjung Benoa is just not a destination and I have gone ahead and re-directed that page to Nusa Dua as I cannot think anyone will object to that. Tanjung Benoa is really just a continuation of Nusa Dua which offers more of the same type of hotels, the odd decent restaurant and little else. There was no content in the article.

2. For discussion about Besakih please see here. I would like some other opinions before merging Besakih into Mount Agung. --Burmesedays 04:40, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

Thanks Jani and done. I have merged and Besakih now re-directs to Mount Agung.--Burmesedays 09:07, 15 September 2009 (EDT

Push for guide status

It's extremely difficult to get a large region like Bali up to guide status, but since we have people working hard on these articles, it might be nice to outline what would be needed to accomplish this. The following articles need to be bumped up to usable status:

That part isn't too hard. The big obstacle would be getting all six subregions up to usable status. Each would need a developed get in section, an adequate "see" section, and (crucially) all the important linked destinations (cities, islands, other destinations) would also need to be at usable status. --Peter Talk 14:02, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

the region articles will the hard ones. I am still not at all clear as to what should really be in those. Is there an up to speed article with a regional template for a place similar to Bali that could be suggested as a guideline? Getting all 32 destination articles to usable standard will be easy in comparison I think. But now the challenge is at least laid down and clear for all to see :) --Burmesedays 14:17, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
There actually aren't a lot of good examples of well developed region articles. The bar for usable status on region article is fairly low, though. I've been trying to get the U.S. state of Maryland up to guide status, but I've only really "completed" one of its subregions. While it's obviously a very different destination from Bali, it still might give you some ideas on what belongs in a good region article. That one subregion I finished was Capital Region (Maryland), but note that it's not necessary to fill out all the sections for usable status—just "get in" & "see." --Peter Talk 14:22, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
Thank you Peter. I think if we concentrate on Get in and See (plus Understand to ensure the article makes some sense) this is do-able.--Burmesedays 09:49, 15 September 2009 (EDT)
of those five articles, I have now got Mount Agung into shape and changed the status to usable.--Burmesedays 04:12, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
and Kintamani is now usable I think... albeit quite weak. This is just not a particularly great destination by Bali standards! --Burmesedays 09:45, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
and Tanah Lot. --Burmesedays 01:15, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
and Denpasar. --Burmesedays 09:37, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
There are now 28 Bali destination articles. Of those, 4 have guide status (would be more if it were not for non standard sleep listings all over the place) and the other 24 are now usable (some far stronger than others). So one of the key requirements to get Bali to guide status has been achieved. --Burmesedays 23:38, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
That's extremely impressive, and all the more so given how quickly you've improved these articles. So all that's left is to get the subregions up to usable—adding overview prose for the see + get in sections, and perhaps creating usable articles for those linked in the Central Bali article.
Of those potential Central Bali articles: Sayan is part of Ubud and definitely not a separate article. Jataluwih is a mis-spelling of Jatiluwih which already re-directs to Bedugul and is covered there. Pura Luhur Batukaru is the interesting one. I have been thinking that one destination article is missing from Bali: Tabanan/Mengwi and the afore-mentioned PLB and Mount Batukaru itself would be part of that. That article will come soon.--Burmesedays 00:15, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
This would be only Wikitravel's second guide-level region, and would be a great showcase example as to how it should be done! If you get it there, I'll pledge to create a good Wikitravel style map of the island. --Peter Talk 00:01, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
A map would be great and if we get there, I shall hold you to it :) :) --Burmesedays 00:18, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
I have now had a real go at Southeastern_Islands (the easiest of the 6 regional articles). Please have a look. I think this one meets the bar for usable region status (but I will certainly develop the see section further). --Burmesedays 04:53, 20 September 2009 (EDT)
Yes, that definitely meets the bar. --Peter Talk 14:33, 20 September 2009 (EDT)
Thanks Peter. I am now fairly happy with Central Bali, South Bali and Southeastern Islands and have bumped them all to usable status. --Burmesedays 03:59, 21 September 2009 (EDT)
Just East Bali left to do of the six regions.... --Burmesedays 08:51, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

You are doing some really awesome work on this, I tip my hat in your general direction sir! :) When you feel like you're done getting the regions up to guide status, and the cities are in a decent shape, remember to nominate it for Destination of Month as our only 2nd region after we featured Northern Territory as our first in May. There are few glitches but I think it's nearly there, and a nomination is a good way to root out anything missing. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 09:29, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Thanks Stefan and much appreciated. I shall indeed remember the advice about Destination of the Month. There are still glitches for sure, especially in formatting and any help on that front would be greatly appreciated. Fairly minor in the scheme of things though. It was probably a typo, but the regions need to be usable and not guide..... --Burmesedays 09:36, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
On article formatting (especially sleep listings), the articles that need most attention are those that were fairly developed before I embarked on this project. Notably: Nusa Dua, Seminyak, Legian, Canggu, Lovina, Amed, Ubud,<strike> and <strike>Padang Bai. Most of the other 20 odd are OK or require more minor attention. The five completed regional articles are all OK on that front.--Burmesedays 10:35, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

All six regional articles now to up to speed I think:

Of the 28 Bali destination articles, 7 are at guide status with the rest usable. Some the usable articles are much better than others and could be guides were it not for style and formatting issues. That's where we stand.--Burmesedays 09:36, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

So I've deleted the empty Stay safe and Itinerary sections, since they are not necessary for such a small region, and there is already a stay safe section in the Bali guide. South Bali needs Do, Eat and Drink filled out, West Bali and East Bali needs Get Around and Drink, North Bali needs Eat and Drink and the Southeastern_Islands needs Drink. It doesn't have to be much at all, just a two lines of which city in the region has the best night-life, any restaurants outside the cities or how long it takes to get between the two main cities in a region. Basically I'd prefer anything but empty, as it sort of disturbs the picture of a finished region, and takes something away from the awesome work done of them. Get that done, and I think we should slap the Guide tag on Ubud and Bali and nominate Bali as destination of the month for one of the winter months. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 12:05, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for the guidance Stefan (and all your editing work on Ubud of course!). The empty sections in the regional articles are straightforward enough to deal with. Before any DOTM nomination I would like to continue cleaning up some of the older city/destination articles.--Burmesedays 21:25, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

I have now changed the status of this article to guide. --Burmesedays 06:39, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

Mindbogglingly amazing work! Now throw a few maps in there and Wikitravel Press will be more than happy to publish it. Jpatokal 08:15, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
Awesome work, Burmesedays ! A destination like this deserves a devoted Wikitraveller like you :) Globe-trotter 17:53, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Nusa Tenggara

It passed us all by that this article has skipped one level of the Indonesian regional structure. The IsPartOf assignment should be Nusa Tenggara and not Indonesia. Have changed.--Burmesedays 11:48, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Actually I am wrong.... unless we want to split Nusa Tenggara into three sub regions (Bali, West Nusa Tenggarra and East Nusa Tenggara? That would be over-refining in my view. I have rolled back the IsPartOf for now.--Burmesedays 11:56, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
I'm not certain that I've understood your second point—it seems to me that Bali is in Nusa Tenggara, right? Thus it should have {{isPartOf|Nusa Tenggara}}. Why would it have a different breadcrumb trail than Lombok? --Peter Talk 13:14, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
I did not explain that too well. Apologies but it was after midnight when I spotted the issue. Bali is administratively part of Nusa Tenggara. My point was that if we are to reflect this, a further level of breadcrumb trail is required, splitting Nusa Tenggara into its three administrative regions of Bali, West T (eg Lombok and Sumbawa) and East T (eg Flores and Komodo). That is of course if we are to follow govt defined admin regions in Indonesia. We do not in the Java articles for example.
Another solution would be to treat Bali as a region of Indonesia for WT purposes and reflect that in the main Indonesia article. This would be more traveller friendly for sure (Bali accounts for 80% of all foreign arrivals into Indonesia) and it was in effect what the breadcrumb trail had been doing until I spotted the issue yesterday..... it was just never reflected in the country article. The first solution would please tidy minds most while the second solution would be a better reflection of how travellers regard Bali in the overall picture of Indonesia.--Burmesedays 21:47, 24 September 2009 (EDT)
Nusa Tenggara used to be split into West NT and East NT, but this was found to be pointless and the regions were merged. I agree that it would make a lot of sense to pull Bali out of Nusa Tenggara and elevate it into its own top-level region. Jpatokal 02:34, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for the explanation of the WT history of NT. I really do think it makes sense to have Bali as a top level region. The Indonesian government would not agree but I am sure the vast majority of travellers would :). I will make the necessary change to the Indonesia country page and the NT region page. For now I will use the same colour to denote Bali and NT in the region table as the map will not make sense otherwise. If anyone disagrees with that, please just change it. --Burmesedays 05:25, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
I've updated the map. It can be a little hard to call out a tiny region on a big map via color, which is why I opted for that laser blue—hopefully it's not too ugly ;) --Peter Talk 12:21, 25 September 2009 (EDT)
Good stuff Peter. Sometimes the sea in Bali is that colour, honest it is ;) --Burmesedays 21:04, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

Change of geographic scope of Nusa Dua and Uluwatu

I have plunged forward and changed the area covered by Nusa Dua. This was not really logical and definitely not how the Nusa Dua area is normally thought of. I have proposed that Nusa Dua covers only the Nusa Dua enclave and the Tanjung Benoa spit plus a few villages just to west of the enclave (to include notably The Bale and The Nikko Bali Resort). The rest of the Bukit Peninsula south of Jimbaran should therefore now covered by the Uluwatu article (which I still think should be called the Bukit Peninsula and not Uluwatu - there was some resistance to that proposal previously though). --Burmesedays 09:31, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

Hi Burmeseday, I have seen your changes and in general agree with it. I think we need a map because most travellers will be irritated that Jimbaran and Nusa Dua are technically part of the Bukit Island but are not below that structure. I do not want to confuse/complicate the structure but maybe we integrate Nusa Dua & Jimbaran under Bukit as it were districts. E.g. South Bali->Bukit Island->Nusa Dua This could make sense as the travellers interests in Kuta/Legian/Seminyak/Sanur are different to those in Nusa Dua (imho). Do you think this is feasible? jan 10:55, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
Hi Jan. I am not sure that is really feasible to be honest... a whole new Bali Region just for the Bukit Peninsula would be difficult. The map is key I think and it is next on my list to do now that Jimbaran is finished. I will also tighten up the Understand explanations in Bukit Peninsula and Nusa Dua which should help. --Burmesedays 11:25, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
I have very quickly knocked together a map to help understanding. Not the greatest piece of map drawing ever but it was done very fast and I think it helps with understanding the nature of the Bukit Peninsula article. A larger scale map with listings etc will follow at some stage. --Burmesedays 04:20, 29 October 2009 (EDT)

New Bali Map

Bloody marvellous job Peter. Looks great and the article has just stepped up several notches. --Burmesedays 22:40, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

I was about to say the same, it's absolutely stunning. This article is turning into something really great. Globe-trotter 17:39, 6 November 2009 (EST)
Yes, but I'm seeing seven regions on the map and only six described in the text. Missing one is dark green, NW tip of island. Pashley 18:48, 6 November 2009 (EST)
That's not a region, it's Snoopy's nose West Bali National Park. I suppose we could make that label a little bigger? --Peter Talk 19:32, 6 November 2009 (EST)
Perhaps enlarge the nose label yes :) It is very clear to me that it is a park and the park pattern/colour is widely used here. But other readers might get the same impression as Pashley. --Burmesedays 22:02, 6 November 2009 (EST)
and right on cue, the new WT map of Snoopy's nose is now uploaded. --Burmesedays 00:30, 7 November 2009 (EST)

And a large chunk of the Bali maps project is now complete. The following are all done:

That leaves 8 more definite must-haves: Kuta, Ubud, Denpasar, Candidasa, Amed, Nusa Lembongan, Nusa Penida and Lovina. Maybe a few other simple town maps like Klungkung and Singaraja. --Burmesedays 07:33, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Crime to be wary of

I have been to Bali 4 times and love it. But I was a victim of a drugging robbery. I was offered food with a drug (most likely Rohypnol) that made me lose consciousness and ended up in the hospital after being robbed and having my hotel room robbed. Do not accept food or drink from strangers. But of course this applies to anywhere on planet Earth!114.165.67.40 03:59, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Jimbaran

Push for star (audit)

Sub-articles that need to be promoted to guide status:

Subregions:

  • Central Bali — do section should be converted to prose for guide status
  • South Bali — convert do section to prose, add wikilinks to see section
  • West Bali — convert see & do to prose
  • North Bali — add basic info on how to get to Yeh Sanih, convert do to prose
  • East Bali — convert do to prose
  • Southeastern Islands — convert see & do to prose

In addition to the above, it looked like many eat & drink sections could be improved, but you are likely already aware.

I noticed that the subregions lack sleep sections. That's actually fine by the Wikitravel:Region article template, but the main reason why we tend to omit sleep sections from region articles is just to prevent empty and neglected pages from filling up with spammed sleep listings, which anyway belong in city articles. I'll leave it to your judgment to decide which region articles could benefit from an overview sleep paragraph, which would contain basic information on which city articles to look to for what types of accommodations (e.g., X is the obvious choice for backpackers, with its abundance of cheap beach huts, while Y caters to those looking for all-inclusive resorts).

Main article issues:

1) Four of the "other destinations" (Tanah Lot, Kintamani, Jimbaran, and Candidasa) are arguably not "other destinations," other meaning "other than a municipality." One of the cities (Nusa Dua) looks more like a OD than a city to me. This can be fudged to keep the article in line with the mos. My suggestion: Define Tanah Lot as the temple, not as the adjacent village; call Kintamani an "area" or "region" instead of a town; move Nusa Dua to the OD list; and move either Jimbaran or Candidasa to the cities list. That leaves us with either Jimbaran or Candidasa misplaced in the OD list—perhaps you can think of a way to portray them to stay within the bounds of our style policies?

2) What is meant by "directional temples?"

3) Convert monuments & do sections to prose

4) If I'm not mistaken, prices should only be listed in one currency, the rupiah. (Although it might still be useful here and there to show the rough equivalent USD amount in parentheses?)


Other:

1) All articles at guide status, IMO, should have a lead image at the top.

2) It would be ideal to not repeat photos across articles.

3) It's certainly not listed as a requirement for star status, but it would be nice if we had at least a usable Balinese phrasebook to complement all these great articles!

I'm sure the additional scrutiny of a star nomination would turn up a few more tasks and adjustments, but if you satisfy the above (in addition to your own goals), then I have little doubt that we'll have our first ever region article star! --Peter Talk 22:38, 7 November 2009 (EST)

I cannot thank you enough for that audit Peter. Your eye for these things is just second to none. In no particular order:
  • Structural issues - all good advice. Let me work on that and hopefully get a good work around on the OD/cities classification.
  • Point well taken on the regional articles and the need for prose rather than Do listings etc. That one is easy.
  • I am very aware of Eat and Drink sections generally being a bit weak. This is true even in some of the articles already at guide status. I have slowly and somewhat randomly been working on those. In many cases more prose would help as well as listings.
  • Overview sleep sections in region articles - good point and I will add some general information where appropriate.
  • Directional Temple - will define. The temple section was actually weak in the main article and this is listed as the main attraction of the destination. I have today already added an overview of temple design and function - a complex subject which was hard to summarise in a few paras. I also plan to draw a layout diagram to go with this.
  • Prices. Tough one as all high end (and many mid market) places price in US$ or Euros and lower end in Rupiah. The amounts get unwieldy in Rupiah as well (US$ 500 is Rp 4,800,000). Or do you just mean in the main article?
  • Phrasebook. That has been on my mind and I created Balinese phrasebook some time ago. Viciously complex language but it is on my list :).
Having drawn 14 maps in a short period I am a bit all mapped-out, so will put some energy into these issues and leave the map project alone for a few days. Thanks again. --Burmesedays 23:06, 7 November 2009 (EST)
I don't have a very strong grasp of how we deal with prices, as the bulk of my contributions have been in the U.S. and Russia, where currency issues are cut and dry. I'm sure Jani would know how best to handle this. --Peter Talk 01:15, 8 November 2009 (EST)

:::Hmm, I almost feel like a bit of a jerk suggesting you take on more work than you are already doing, but... You might want to take a look at some of the star main articles for huge cities (which act a lot like region articles). In particular, it would be great to add some sections to the understand section, especially "literature" and "film." Obviously, neither are mandatory, but personally I do like having a few recommended readings when I'm heading off somewhere unfamiliar. Also, if you could get the data, it would also be great to add Template:Climate to the climate section. --Peter Talk 01:36, 8 November 2009 (EST)

Nothing jerk-like about that at all. All guidance is gratefully received. Will do. --Burmesedays 02:22, 8 November 2009 (EST)
I have gone for reading rather than literature. The lit is largely pretty awful (although I might chuck one in) but there are some wonderful books about Balinese life, culture and history. Film is a bit of a no-no as well as there just is not any of any quality. Thinking about it more, a climate template will not work as there is often a 15 degree daytime variation between lowland and highland areas. A climate template could only work city articles. Very good pointers and thank you again. --Burmesedays 05:14, 8 November 2009 (EST)

I think I have devised a reasonable work-around on the cities/OD issue. Nusa Dua swaps places with Jimbaran as Peter suggested. Singaraja is a place I personally like but frankly, few visitors ever go there other than to pass through and it rarely gets much of a feature in travel guides. There are no hotels or restaurants to speak of. Therefore I propose dropping Singaraja from the cities list and replacing it with Candidasa. Then Candidasa is replaced by Amed on the OD list. Amed really should have been in the 18 anyway as it is a popular visitor destination. It fits the OD definition as it is a 12 km stretch of tiny villages, rather than a specific town. I have made those changes and think it works well and makes sense for the traveler. --Burmesedays 21:30, 8 November 2009 (EST)

:The only remaining problem case is Uluwatu, defined here as a village. I would recommend redefining as one of the following (with more expert descriptions):

  • [[Bukit Peninsula#See|Uluwatu Temple]] — one of Bali's most important temples, dramatically set on the side of a craggy seaside cliff
  • [[Bukit Peninsula]] — the the southernmost destination in Bali, with popular surfing, great beaches, and the can't-miss cliffside Uluwatu Temple
--Peter Talk 03:47, 9 November 2009 (EST)
Re: prices, my rule of thumb is simple: use the prices that the traveller will encounter. For Bali, this means that hotel prices should be in dollars ("$25"), but most other prices should be in rupiah ("Rp XXX") Jpatokal 11:28, 10 November 2009 (EST)
Thanks Jani. I have been kind of using that policy and will tighten it up when editing. I think hotels that charge in dollars should be listed here in dollars as you say. But the ones that charge in rupiah should be listed in rupiah. And there are some (especially in Amed where all the hotel owners seem to be European) who charge in euros. It does not take a genious to convert rates for comparison, so I think it is best to list the currency that is used in each hotel's official published rates. And I do think it should be shown as US$ and not $ to remove any possible confusion (especially for Australians make up a huge percentage of visitors to Bali. --Burmesedays 12:12, 10 November 2009 (EST)

A small structural change. I have dropped Tanah Lot from the list of 9 linked other destinatons. As popular as it is, it is just one attraction with a couple of listings and can never be any more than that. A much better candidate is Nusa Penida. Very much OtBP and the article is well-developed containing some information that you will not find in any printed travel guide. I think we are serving the traveller better by including Nusa Penida over Tanah Lot which is a very straightforward destination in comparison.

Just one of 18 linked articles left to get up to guide status - Kintamani. I am assembling some up to date info for more sleep and eat listings there and will deal with those in the next day or so. Of the other 17, only Lovina is still waiting for a map. Some of the other articles could certainly be improved but all are genuine guide status I think. --Burmesedays 06:11, 21 November 2009 (EST)

Star nomination

Now I think it is ready. A quick audit:

  • Main article is guide
  • I have stuck all 5 regions up to guide as they seem right for that
  • There are 29 city/destination articles of which 19 are guides (the linked 18 plus Tabanan) and the other 10 all usable.
  • The main article, 4 of the 5 regions and 16 of the other articles have WikiTravel style maps.

I think Bali is ready for Star Region nomination. --Burmesedays 11:47, 21 November 2009 (EST)

Hi Burmeseday! First I would like to thank you for you excellent work and suggest that you have the pleasure to formally nominate the article. I have only issue left and that is the map in the Cities section where Bali is not so good visible but you have already my support. Regards,jan 11:52, 21 November 2009 (EST)
Thanks Jan . I bloody hate those locater maps and am pleased that Peter has just removed this one :) I am sure lots will emerge as part of the star nomination process. And the main article needs a thorough proof-reading which I shall do tomorrow. --Burmesedays 12:16, 21 November 2009 (EST)
Yep, this is awe-inspiring work, and I'm more than ready to support a starnom, once you've fixed up one more thing ;) West Bali National Park#Do needs a bit of polishing up before we can really call it a guide article. In particular, it needs specifics on how to get set up with snorkels/dive gear around Menjangan.
That will be done :). I am extremely grateful to you for going through the individual articles. I am so close to these now that I do miss some obvious points. --Burmesedays 21:45, 21 November 2009 (EST)
Two non-critical things I caught while poking around just now was that the map of the Bukit Peninsula refers to a "detailed map of south-west Bukit Peninsula"—where is that map? And there is a Mangrove Restaurant on the Nusa Lembongan map, but it isn't in the article (dining in a mangrove forest sounds just about right to me, so I was wondering if a road leads there, or if you need a boat, etc.) --Peter Talk 12:43, 21 November 2009 (EST)
Very good spot on the Mangrove Restaurant and I will deal with that. It is actually a splendid place, if a bit buggy. On the Bukit map, that's a cache issue. If you purge, you will see that I dispensed with that old, rather ugly map of the whole peninsula (that was really more of a region map in its function) and replaced it with the detailed SW Bukit Peninsula Map replete with more detail and icons. Given I did that 4 days ago, you might need to purge cache for some of the other articles as well as I have added a lot of listings since WT has been up and running again. I am also trying to ensure that all Bali guide articles have a good lead pic as you suggested previously - should be done today. --Burmesedays 21:45, 21 November 2009 (EST)

PADI and SSI

[3] So what about people who don't know what those acronyms stand for? We shouldn't be using obscure terms without defining them somehow. LtPowers 10:46, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Then I suggest PADI (Professional Association of Dive Instructors) etc. Anyone who has ever even thought about learning to dive knows the term PADI. I have been PADI certified for more years than I care to remember and actually had no idea what it stood for until right now! Thanks for the proofing by the way. --Burmesedays 10:52, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Star nomination

Although the bar for star region status is set very high, I think Bali is now up that standard. There are no articles to use as comparative benchmarks as this would be WT's first ever star region article if the nomination is successful. Indeed there are only two guide region articles here of which Bali is one.

Apart from the usual star guide considerations, star region guide status requires that all sub-region articles and all linked city/other destination articles are guide or better. Bali meets those structural requirements - all five sub-region articles are guides as are 19 of the 29 individual city/destination articles (and the other 10 are all usable). I realise that this is an ambitious nomination but it is one that I think is warranted. The requirements have been considered and extensively discussed in advance of this nomination. All comments are of course very welcome. --Burmesedays 01:37, 22 November 2009 (EST)

In general, I support the nomination — Bali is a major destination and we have a lot of good information, well-written & well-organised — but, as I read the requirements and text above, there are 10 articles that need to be brought up to guide before the top-level one can be promoted to star. Pashley 01:57, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Initially that is how I read it as well and that would in fact be near-impossible. However, it is the 7+2 cities and other destinations linked from the top level article that need to be at guide status. In the case of Bali there are nine of each and all 18 articles (plus one other) are at guide status together with the 5 sub-regions. This is discussed here and here--Burmesedays 02:27, 22 November 2009 (EST)
OK, full support from me, then. Pashley 03:37, 22 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support. Our Bali guides are now absolutely top-notch, resulting from the tireless great work Burmesedays has put into them. While the guide is only just now meeting the strict requirements for region guide star status, it also surpasses them, especially with all the subregion & city/town maps—to my count the guide has 23 maps! A first star region guide (hopefully I'm not being too presumptuous in thinking that this will pass the nomination) is a very important milestone for the site. Not long ago, our huge city articles were generally pretty weak, but the establishment of a few "templates" has led to them becoming a strength—I'm hoping Bali and its subregion articles will serve as a similar template for region articles. I won't leave the usual detailed critique, as my long list of concerns have already been met on the Bali talk page, starting with Talk:Bali#Push_for_guide_status. --Peter Talk 11:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support, with a couple of comments.
  1. The West Bali National Park is colour coded differently to what I would expect from the legend, where it is grouped with Negara, Gilimanuk etc. The legend colour box is a light purple, and the park is dark green. This is slightly confusing until you look at the high resolution map. I wonder if it would not be worth putting in a green color box for the park as a sub region of West Bali to make the coding clearer?
It seems to be standard WT practice to include large national parks on a region map (where possible) using the standard WT park pattern/colour and then labelling them. I think it would be confusing to include the park in the colour key as it is not a defined region. Maybe the answer is to make the park label larger? I will leave that in Peter's capable hands as he drew this splendid map. --Burmesedays 22:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)
That should do the trick. -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 07:46, 24 November 2009 (EST)
  1. Drink section: Avocado is mentioned as a "desert fruit" in the drink section. As this is a drink section, I am guessing it is blended into a liquid, but this isn't clear. Interesting though, and combination with chocolate is fascinating. Does it have a name?
Ummm.. it is a dessert not desert fruit :). It does explain that the avocado is blended with sugar and ice, so it is a liquid yes. I will make that clearer. The concoction when laced with chocolate syrup does not have a specific name that I know of - just jus alpokat or alpukat (avocado juice). Thanks very much for taking the time to read the article in detail. --Burmesedays 22:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)
  • Oops.
  • Least I could do :-).
  1. I noticed that there was no star nomination box in the article, so I took the liberty of putting it in. Cheers, -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 12:58, 22 November 2009 (EST)
  • Full & unconditional" support jan 04:26, 23 November 2009 (EST)
  • Not sure. I note a few problems which may be minor, but I think an increased level of scrutiny is in order for a star article.
    1. The prose is generally good, but the lead section in particular is very dry. It tells me nothing about why I would want to visit until the third paragraph, and even then just mentions a) the varied landscape, b) the culture (without explaining anything about why the culture is interesting, c) that it's popular and wins awards, and d) it has something to offer everyone. Frankly, those four reasons to visit could be used on virtually any travel guide. What makes Bali unique, and why would I want to go there?
    2. Numerous grammatical irregularities scattered throughout the article, although I can probably fix most of those myself.
    3. The listing for "funerals" seems out of place under "Festivals" where everything else is talking about regularly scheduled, island-wide events.
    4. The listings of books under "Read" should better distinguish book titles from authors. Having it all in italics is visually confusing.
    5. The listing for Tourism information just says "166". Where is this simple three-digit number valid? Is it usable with a country code from outside Bali? Or is it purely for calling from within Bali? Or anywhere in Indonesia?
    6. By plane: I'd like to see the name of the airport bolded. Also, the link for Ngurah Rai Airport doesn't work for me. Finally, the next sentence about its name being misleading is itself confusing -- if the name was "Denpasar Airport", then I can see its location outside of Denpasar being confusing, but how does "Ngurah Rai Airport" mislead about the airports location relative to Denpasar?
    7. Putting a space between "US$" and the dollar amount is contrary to established style.
    8. Using "etc." in prose strikes me as lazy writing; I'd avoid it.
    9. The word "bemo" is used in "Get in" but undefined until "Get around"; just adding the word "minivan" after it may be sufficient to alleviate this concern.
    10. In "By bus", the link to Lombok is corrupted.
    11. No prices for the ferry services from Java. It's also worded oddly, with the ferries going from Bali to Java, even though this is the "Get In" section.
    12. "Driving is on the left-hand side" belongs in "By self-drive car or motorbike".
    13. In "See", I'd like to see the temple paragraphs broken out into their own section.
    14. I'd consider putting the information on currency-exchange scams into "Buy", but I'm not sure.
    15. I'd incorporate most of "Stay healthy" into "Stay safe", with the yoga information moved to "Do". Some more information about hospitals and availability of medical services might be nice, though, and would better fill out a "Stay healthy" section.
    16. If all of the consulates are Denpasar, just say so once rather than listing it every time.
    • Overall a very very good article. I still need to evaluate the sub-articles to make sure they're actually at guide status, but I don't anticipate that being a problem. Well done. LtPowers 13:37, 23 November 2009 (EST)
Thank you taking the time go through the article so thoroughly. As Peter has already pointed out, this nomination is a potentially siginificant milestone for WT and the article should be scrutinised very carefully. To deal with each of your points seriatim:
  • 1. I think that the opening paras are succinct and to the point and that information about why anyone should visit Bali and its unique nature belong in the Understand section and not in the opening paragraphs which would otherwise by necessity become too long?
  • 2. Please do.
  • 3. Not really. Odalan ceremonies are also very much local festivals with no schedule and are also mentioned on this section. If non-scheduled ceremonies need to be separated then we could create two sections - Festivals and Ceremonies.
  • 4 & 5. Done.
  • 6. Link and emboldening fixed. The airport name confuses a huge number of people. The official name is Ngurah Rai International, Denpasar, Bali (coded DPS for Denpasar), or more casually Denpasar's Ngurah Rai (as in the article). So stating that the airport is not actually in Denpasar is a valid clarification I think.
  • 7. I will fix those.
  • 8. Indeed and will fix.
  • 9. Done.
  • 10. Fixed.
  • 11. That whole section was a bit backwards - good spot - and I have fixed. On ferry prices, better to have none I think to be consistent with having no flight pricing? I have removed the one price that was there.
  • 12. Done.
  • 13. Not sure. Would like some other views on that.
  • 14. Personally, I would look for currency scam information in Stay safe and not in Buy. But either way I guess. Other views on this?
  • 15. I must confess that I am not really au fait with the guidelines for Stay safe and Stay healthy sections. I will have a good look at these sections and re-classify as necessary.
  • 16. Sadly they are not all in Denpasar (even though the honorary title says that). I have though removed Bali from all the addresses in line with MoS.
Thanks again and I hope I have succesfully addressed at least some of your concerns. --Burmesedays 22:10, 23 November 2009 (EST)
I think LtPowers' critique of the lead section is spot on. I'd cut out all the "facts" (possibly move/integrate them into the understand section), and then keep and expound upon some of the better content in the third and fourth paragraphs. Try starting with something like:
Bali, the famed Island of the Gods, with its varied landscape of hills and mountains, rugged coastlines and sandy beaches, lush rice terraces and barren volcanic hillsides—all providing a picturesque backdrop to its colorful, deeply spiritual and unique culture, stakes a serious claim to be paradise on earth.
It doesn't have to be terribly long, or terribly informative—it should just be a good way to introduce the destination, call out what makes it distinctive, and motivate readers to keep reading. Our better huge-city articles could probably serve for some inspiration. Recent efforts have tended towards two–three short paragraphs, although Singapore offers a good example of one more succinct. --Peter Talk 00:37, 24 November 2009 (EST)
I had a go, please check. To be frank though, I have re-written this article (and the other 29) so many times now, I think I am all out of words - wood for the trees and all that. It might be better if somebody else does any changes to the style of prose. --Burmesedays 02:05, 24 November 2009 (EST)
Currency scams seem more appropriate in Stay safe to me. Agree on moving Yoga into "Do", and will have a look at the Temples.-- Peter (Southwood) Talk 07:53, 24 November 2009 (EST)
Yoga moved. --Burmesedays 21:12, 24 November 2009 (EST)
Just looked at "See" again. I agree that there is a need for some heading for the temples, and probably also for beaches and mountains, just to draw attention to the start of a different subject. A heading equivalent to Monuments would, I think, be appropriate, but that could also be done by reducing the Monuments header to a simple bold word in its own paragraph and doing the same for the others. -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 08:03, 24 November 2009 (EST)
Re-organised the section. I grouped beach, volcanoes, rice terraces etc under a new Landscape sub-section of See. --Burmesedays 21:12, 24 November 2009 (EST)
also drew and loaded a temple layout diagram and will expand the text to define some of the structures shown. --Burmesedays 00:36, 25 November 2009 (EST)
Looks good. Diagram and explanation helps too. Worth the effort I think! -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 03:03, 25 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support - though one quibble, with over 3 million people living outside Denpasar, is there no major hospitals outside the capital? like Rumah Sakit Umum in Singaraja, or this one in Ubud, I'd find that more useful than 5 in Denpasser, you'd have to pick at random anyway, but I don't know whether those are real major hospitals or more like clinics. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 21:57, 24 November 2009 (EST)
I can see why you might think so as there are 33 official public hospitals in Bali. The ones listed though are the ones that definitely have proper ER facilities (which was the benchmark for inclusion). I suspect that one of the Singaraja hospitals might have as may RSU Klungkung and RSU Tabanan. I have no way of being sure of that though. The example you gave in Ubud is a clinic with maternity facilities. From a traveller's point of view though, surely nobody choses which ER to go to? And more minor injuries will be dealt with in one of the English-speaking clinics specifically set up for visitors (listed in the next sub-section). I will try to add some more of those to give a broader geographical spread. Thanks for taking the time to read the article Stefan. --Burmesedays 01:29, 25 November 2009 (EST)
OK done on the clinics. There is now at least one clinic shown for each region. Not possible with ER hospitals I am afraid. --Burmesedays 01:58, 25 November 2009 (EST)
Cool cool, I'm a happy camper then :) --Stefan (sertmann) talk 20:00, 26 November 2009 (EST)

I think it's safe to say that Bali got enough support. It's been hanging in the air for weeks now, let's make it a star :) Globe-trotter 10:57, 11 December 2009 (EST)

It hasn't been quite three weeks yet—we should wait until 13 Dec. --Peter Talk 11:17, 11 December 2009 (EST)
That and the grammar and spelling are not yet "perfect" as the Star requirements require. I've taken a pass at the first several sections and will take a look at the rest of it later, but I'd appreciate some additional eyes on it. LtPowers 10:52, 12 December 2009 (EST)
If someone will nominate a section that needs work on grammar and spelling I will give it a go, but dont have time to go through the whole article again. Those sections I have looked at recently look good to me. Cheers, Peter (Southwood) Talk 01:58, 18 December 2009 (EST)
I did today some proof reading based on LtPowers comments and made some minor changes (mostly commas, word order and deleting phrases). The article is consistent and very good. I suggest we switch to star. jan 06:35, 19 December 2009 (EST)
This nomination appears to be receiving an unusual level of scrutiny over style and grammar. Some of the changes made have certainly worsened readibility and indeed, grammar. --Burmesedays 03:42, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I apologize if I made any mistakes in my attempts at correction; feel free to revert as appropriate. But I will not apologize for the level of scrutiny; it is not my fault if the "perfect grammar and spelling" requirement is not always respected. LtPowers 11:41, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I share the view of Burmeseday that the bar for Bali is significantly higher than with other Star nominations which passed through in the past. LtPowers: Policy states near-perfect grammatically because i think we will never reach perfection with language (non of us is professor in linguistic i dare to assume and otherwise we need an academic council to decide on grammar if we can not agree). jan 12:00, 22 December 2009 (EST)
The checklist very clearly says "perfect". That means, at the time of promotion, it should be as good as it possibly can be. The article status text, which is what says "near-perfect", hedges its bets because the grammar and spelling may have degraded slightly from further editing after promotion. At least that's how I would guess the wording was chosen. LtPowers 17:15, 22 December 2009 (EST)
A checklist is not policy, and I don't see a problem of grammar in the article significant enough to hold up the nomination. And of course, the problem with such an objection, is that it's not clear what you want altered—it would be easier for you to correct the mistakes you've found than publish them here for correction... A dilemma. --Peter Talk 22:32, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I got another nitpick: what about the use of - or — in the cities and other destination lists? It seems like the article template claims that - should be used, while Bali is using — . As this is running for star, and will be a model for future regions, should this be kept or changed? Globe-trotter 17:50, 22 December 2009 (EST)

We're without consensus on this, see Wikitravel_talk:One-liner_listings#disclaimerbox (there is more discussion on that fairly trivial topic on that page and at Wikitravel talk:Spelling#Hyphens, en dashes, and em dashes). I think we've basically agreed to disagree until a consensus develops, and allow for differing styles. It may be pedantic, but I still hold that using hyphens is simply improper grammar, as a hyphen is only ever used properly to hyphenate [4], while an mdash is used for setting off a clause, which is precisely what we are doing in one-liner lists. --Peter Talk 17:57, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I am definitely a culprit on mdashes vs hyphen usage. Mostly out of laziness I have to admit. Peter is certainly correct in his assertions above. Would be helpful if there was quick wiki code for a dash as seven characters to create one is just plain ugly. --Burmesedays 22:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)
And as we are in pedantry mode :). Using a dash to set off a one liner description phrase with no initial capital and no period can be justified. But the lack of initial capital and full stop looks very strange when a second sentence appears. Eg in Bali this is fine I think :
  • Candidasa — a quiet coastal town, the Bali Aga and gateway to the east coast
But this is not:
  • Kuta — surfer central, by far the most heavily developed area in Bali. Lots of shopping and night-life and the centre of lower-end party culture on Bali --Burmesedays 22:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)
See Wikitravel_talk:One-liner_listings#Relaxing_the_rules_a_bit. --Peter Talk 22:32, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I think the whole nomination turns out to become a bizarre story that demotivates a couple of very good contributors. I think we should be able to reach consensus. The checklist is not part of the policy as Peter stated above and therefore near-perfection should be fine (I wonder how this definition will be interpreted) LtPowers: As you are the main opponent of the promotion can you either fix your open issues in the next week or detail sections which are concerning you? There are a couple of very willing contributors (Peter, Burmeseday, I) who would reread sections if you name them. jan 05:40, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Apologies; as I said above, I did take a pass at the grammar and spelling but didn't get all the way through the article. I didn't realize you were waiting on me. I haven't had a chance to look through the subsequent changes to see what's been improved. This is our first region star, however, and I'd like it to be as good as possible. I'm very surprised at the lax attitude toward grammar and spelling here. I'll take a look shortly and see where the article stands. LtPowers 09:22, 23 December 2009 (EST)
The article history will show you that I have just given it another pass from where you said you had stopped last time. I am probably not the right person to be doing that though. --Burmesedays 09:27, 23 December 2009 (EST)
I don't see why not. LtPowers 11:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)
  • Support, after going through and cleaning up the rest of the article (particularly commas before independent clauses), although I would like to see the first paragraph under "Do" expanded somewhat to explain how one might experience Hindu culture and history. LtPowers 11:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)
Great to see that consensus can be achieved and thank you to all for their work! LtPowers: Thank you for the concrete feedback. I think with that feedback we can work on because even a Star article can be improved. I assume we have an early christmas present. jan 11:23, 23 December 2009 (EST)
Promoted.--Burmesedays 12:05, 26 December 2009 (EST)

Photo layout

If this is a star article, why do we have such unusual image layouts? The "gallery"-type thing at Understand#Culture and the left-aligned images down in the body are not exemplary of how we usually do things, and I don't particularly want newbies coming in and using this article to justify that kind of layout in other articles. Can we standardize it a bit? Texugo 22:22, 7 March 2010 (EST)

The gallery should definitely go I think. It appeared quite recently after the star promotion.
There were no comments about the left and right aligned images during the exhaustive star nomination discussions, but please do go ahead and change them all to right-aligned if that is the WT preference. --Burmesedays 23:15, 7 March 2010 (EST)

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