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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Atlanta"

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(Get around by foot section)
(Get around by foot section)
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[[User:DJLamar|DJLamar]] 16:45, 7 April 2012 (EDT)
 
[[User:DJLamar|DJLamar]] 16:45, 7 April 2012 (EDT)
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: Hi. I felt that you definitely added lot of useful information, but there was also a lot of fluff; Wikitravel articles tend to accumulate a lot of extra verbiage, so it's best to say what you mean to say concisely. For example, you wrote "A MARTA station makes access to downtown Decatur very easy, and that area is extremely walkable. The town is home to a huge number of excellent bars and restaurants, as well as nice bookstores and coffee shops. Decatur is also one of the most progressive places in the metro area" which reads like an advertisement for Decatur. If Decatur is that wonderful, that should be described 2 or 3 sections up in the District or Understand sections. Details about the politics of MARTA are totally irrelevant to visitors.
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: Mostly, though, I think that the article needs to present an unbiased opinion... Atlanta is the [http://www.11alive.com/rss/article/198524/40/Atlanta-named-20th-most-walkable-city-in-nation 20th most walkable city in the U.S.], which is not very good. The City of Atlanta scored a walkability score of just 52.9, which is barely above "car-dependent", and that's [http://www.walkscore.com/GA/Atlanta just the city], not the metro area.
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: I appreciate your attitude, that the article should "paint a realistic but positive picture of the possibilities for getting around without a car", and I may have been too quick to remove some of your additions. But I think it's also fair, unbiased, and helpful to tell visitors that cars are usually as fast or faster than MARTA. Five Points Station to Lenox Station is 15 minutes by MARTA, and 16 minutes by car... but if you go there by car, you can drive directly to your destination, instead of walking from the MARTA station, so it's going to be faster. And that's just station to station; if you have to take rail ''and'' bus (as you do for quite a lot of the activities and restaurants currently listed in the article), I don't see why we shouldn't tell visitors that cars ''will'' be faster.
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: Regardless of what does end up staying in the article, it should be clear and concise; the current paragraph about hotels near transit is pretty wordy.
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: -- [[User:BigPeteB|BigPeteB]] 09:46, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

Revision as of 13:50, 9 April 2012

I guess it's obvious by context, but isn't there a whole COUNTRY called Georgia nowadays? Shouldn't this page just be under 'Atlanta'? (I haven't quite come to grips with how the naming terminology really works but I'd GUESS that the capital of the state of Georgia is the biggest Atlanta around and gets the unadorned title.)

I totally agree. I'm worried that the article naming conventions aren't really that accessible; I'm going to try to restructure some things so that people recognize them better. -- Evan 12:31, 4 Sep 2003 (PDT)

Contents

Appied Template

I've applied the 'large city' template to this article. I know Atlanta is a pretty large place, with many restaurants, etc, but in truth it is not a very interesting place for the traveller, with not much in the way of things to see or do. On that basis I decided not to use the huge city template, with all the district heirarchy baggage that brings. One consequence of this is that I have effectively orphaned the one rather vestigial district already present. I've moved the content to the main page, but here is a link in case somebody with a huge amount of info on Atlanta joins Wikitravel and we want to move to the huge city model. Atlanta/Little Five Points -- TheForester 12:32, 6 Aug 2004 (EDT)

I'd like to say: excellent work! Thanks for pitching in on this page!. I'm going to nominate L5P for deletion. If we don't have much to fill the pages with, we should keep this a large city. --Evan 14:44, 6 Aug 2004 (EDT)
I noticed that both this page and Little Five Points had [[Atlanta/Little Five Points]] on them and this was causing the page to show up as a wanted article as the original was deleted. I changed Little Five Points to redirect to Atlanta and this page to point to Little Five Points. If anyone wants to resurrect the subpage they now have to copy the wikitext above first, not just follow the link. This will save creating non-articles. -- Huttite 03:38, 4 Jan 2005 (EST)

Should we really describe things as "ghetto"?

Well, yes, we should. The previous description indicated that the shopping mall is posh at one end and grungy at the other. Assuming this is true, travellers would find this more useful than merely known that it's "upscale". Jpatokal 23:07, 28 Jul 2005 (EDT)

But is "ghetto" the right word? Wouldn't grungy be better. I've been in this mall. There is a bit of a change of scenery from one end to the other, but I really pick up more on the racist inference of the term, rather than describing it as less posh. I just feel like there is a better word. -- Ilkirk 23:21, 28 Jul 2005 (EDT)


Another note, someone described lenox as upscale on one side, and less so near the food court. that is just not true. there are many upscale shops over on the other side of the food court near the marriot. Actually that is the quietest and nicest side. Is it really important anyway?

What is considered suburban?

Personally, i think considering the zoo as in the suburbs as absurd. I think anything within the city of atlanta should not be considered the suburbs. Maybe we should use the word "intown" for areas that are not necessarily urban but are still within the city. That is what most Atlantas call areas like grant park and virginia highlands.


The end of Music Midtown?

Peter Conlon cancelled Music Midtown for this year. The appropriate link is here: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/nation/13569751.htm

I removed "Music Midtown" from the list of events. There is a chance Midtown might be held in the future, somewhere else in Atlanta, but it won't be held in 2006.

Recommendations & classifications

I'm certain that we can go round & round regarding which restaurants & bars to include, and I know that there isn't really a single "good" recommendation for visitors. That said, I'd like to take issue with: -Zyka classified as in the "East Suburbs." Zyka is in Decatur, and Decatur is not in the "suburbs." I don't mean to bring in the stupid ITP/OTP arguement, but Zyka lands very clearly within what people consider to be "in-town." That said, there are much better Indian restaurants to name (Udipi springs to mind,a nd it's even in the same area). -Hard Rock Cafe should be removed from the downtown list... because it's a chain restraurant that anyone can visit in any city. Should we be showcasing local resturants in order to truly reflect the character of the city? Or are we including this one as a fail-safe place that everyone knows? -Are the restaurant lists worht expanding? I've got a few good ones that come to mind.

206.61.144.2 10:17, 7 August 2006 (EDT)

Edits

I did a complete overhaul of the page the past two weekends to add/reclassify a lot of the restaurants, bars, shopping and sights. Please add on!

Stay safe

Having lived in Atlanta for almost three years-in the city itself I find it weird that there is no "Stay Safe" section. Atlanta was quite violent with shootings occurring on a regular basis. This is mostly in the southern and western parts of the city such as College Park, East Point and Bankhead. Downtown is filled with aggressive beggars and scam artistes.

Districts?

Is that long list of districts the best way to divide up the city? I don't know it, but it looks like a lot – cacahuate talk 19:02, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Definitely too many for a city that size, but I'm not familiar enough with the city to make a reasonable district breakdown.Texugo 19:06, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

OK, I've moved the list out of the article for now, so that they don't continue to get created... we should group these into maybe 5 or 7 total districts for Atlanta... User:Joggingman08, you seem to know Atlanta pretty well, can you help us to group these into a handful of districts? We don't necessarily go by the traditional areas of a city, unless the city is large enough to really require an article for each neighborhood. Are there certain ones of these that we can group together to make a bit larger of a "district" that makes sense for a traveler? – cacahuate talk 21:23, 7 May 2008 (EDT)

Yes, especially Downtown, Midtown, and Buckhead should have their own districts. I'm classifying the other districts as their location/direction in relation to the city. -Joggingman08

Are you sure that's what you're doing? It looks to me like the list of places with their own articles is growing and growing since this discussion was started. I mean, the number is up to 14 districts, not counting the gigantic list of suburbs, and not including a lot of the other districts listed on the page. Since the following eight areas are pretty well defined on the article page already, why not go with these as top-level subdivisions? We can subdivide under this level, if absolutely necessary, on the respective district pages:
  • Downtown
  • Midtown
  • North Atlanta/Buckhead
  • Northeast Atlanta
  • East Atlanta
  • Southeast Atlanta
  • South Atlanta
  • West Atlanta

I think the long list of suburbs needs to be seriously cut down too. Obviously some need to stay, like Decatur, but surely not all of those communities have enough attractions and accommodations to stand alone. Texugo 01:35, 8 May 2008 (EDT)

Sleep listings in the Atlanta overview?

Although there is an info box mentioning that all individual listings should be placed in the appropriate district articles, there are still some odd hotel listings in the Splurge sections, and even some advertisements. Is it ok to put the real listings in the appropriate district sections and delete the ad listings? --MarinaK 16:35, 23 March 2009 (EDT)MarinaK.

Yes! LtPowers 16:53, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

District Organization...Finally

Some proposed changes to better organize the district:

  • Downtown -
    • Remove Fairlie-Poplar. It is only 3 square blocks, and can easily be included in the adjacent Five Points district.
    • Rename Historic King District to Sweet Auburn. King district refers only to the MLK Jr. sites, Sweet Auburn will be more inclusive and less dull sounding.
  • Midtown - Remove SoNo. This is a rather nebulous section, which depends on how you define the Midtown/Downtown boundary. If we say that Downtown's north border is North Avenue, then we obviate the need for SoNo.
  • South - Remove Southeast Atl. By reorganizing the district this region is redundant.

Still a work in progress, will migrate info from larger district regions to specific districts, and then eliminate links to the district regions themselves. Any input, objections? --Jtesla16 01:05, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

District Definitions

Atlanta District Regions

This map is not article quality, but I think it can help organize listings behind the scenes, and be a basis for someone ambitious and willing to make a real map. The outlining blue road is 285, the "perimeter."

  • 1. Downtown
  • 2. Midtown
  • 3. Buckhead
  • 4. East Atlanta
  • 5. South Atlanta
  • 6. West Atlanta

Definitions - District are probably most easily defined by street boundaries. North boundary denoted as N:Street Name; East boundary = E:Street Name; etc.

Downtown Districs
  • 1. Downtown (Discussion)
    • N: North Avenue
    • E: Blvd & Hill St.
    • S: 20
    • W: Northside Drive
  • 2. Midtown
    • N: 75 & 85
    • E: Piedmont Ave NE & Monroe Dr NE & Park Dr NE & Ponce De Leon Pl NE
    • S: North Ave
    • W: Howell Mill Rd & Northside Dr
  • 3. Buckhead
    • N: Atlanta city limits, [1]
    • E: Fulton County Boundary
    • S: 85
    • W: 75
  • 4. East Atlanta (Discussion)
    • N: 85
    • E: Atlanta city limits, [2]
    • S: 20 & Blvd
    • W: Downtown and Midtown
  • 5. South Atlanta
    • N: 20 & Hill & Blvd
    • E: Atlanta city limits, [3]
    • S: 285
    • W: 85 & Sylvan & 285 & Lee St
  • 6. West Atlanta
    • N: Intersection of Chattahoochee River and 75
    • E: 75 (Western boundaries of Buckhead, Midtown, Downtown & South Atl)
    • S: Atlanta city limits, [4]
    • W: Atlanta city limits, [5]

Feel free to debate the boundaries if you like, but lets try to use what we decide on as a reference to end the Atlanta confusion. --Jtesla16 01:54, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

Great to see this getting sorted out. I can't really help with defining individual districts, since I don't know the first thing about the city. But the one thing I noticed is that the city boundaries on your map don't appear to align with the official city limits, which I understand to be like this [6]. --Peter Talk 18:48, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
There's a few areas I think are problematic if we use the official boundaries. Without getting into the specifics, mostly to do with areas where neighborhoods have outgrown the boundary, and in areas where the Decatur article has already covered it. So how important is it that the article's scope match the official boundaries? Seems like it might make sense to included a slightly larger area in some cases, and cut back in others. Do you think that's a problem? --Jtesla16 20:57, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
The main reason for using the official boundaries is just to ensure we have full coverage, and don't run into overlap. If you think we can avoid both gaps & overlaps, and keep things clear in this fashion, then I have no objections. --Peter Talk 22:03, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

Two-tiered hierarchy

Right now we have districts & subdistricts for Atlanta. I think subdistricts are almost never a good idea, since they bury content, and would prefer to see the hierarchy flattened into one level. The districts are already grouped nicely in the main article by city area—I just want to see the links to middlemen like Atlanta/Downtown, Atlanta/East, etc. go away. I think they unnecessarily spread out our content across too many articles, when all the information that would go in them could just as easily be put in either the main Atlanta article or the individual districts themselves. --Peter Talk 18:59, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

Agreed, that's the plan, and the next step, after I build some consensus for the organization. --Jtesla16 19:26, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
Atlanta/Southwest also needs a place somewhere. --globe-trotter 08:43, 5 March 2010 (EST)

Removed listing

I removed this listing because an editor changed it to indicate it was closed. Please verify. LtPowers 15:26, 6 March 2011 (EST)

  • Craft, 3376 Peachtree (inside The Mansion on Peachtree), +1 404 995-7580 (), [7]. New York celebrity chef Tom Colicchio (most famous for his role as head judge on Bravo’s Top Chef) chose Atlanta as the third location for his award-winning restaurant Craft. Located in Atlanta’s newest luxury gem, The Mansion on Peachtree, the menu consists of bold, a la carte American classics that use only the finest ingredients Georgia has to offer. Craft's Atlanta location is now closed. $28-$48.

Atlanta vs Metro

Can I just say, I really dislike the current division between Metro Atlanta, Atlanta, and other nearby cities like Decatur? Having lived here for 10 years, I don't think of Decatur as being separate from Atlanta, and I don't think it's useful to travelers to present it this way either.

Consider that on the Decatur page, "Get in" lists the MARTA stations... but MARTA is only described on Atlanta, which is not above the Decatur page! The hierarchy is really broken there.

I think it would be much more helpful to ignore the historical trend of Atlanta not to incorporate its surrounding suburbs like Decatur, Chamblee, and Doraville, and treat Metro Atlanta as the main article here. Maybe a more appropriate division would be to separate ITP from OTP, or "places served by MARTA" from "places not served by MARTA" (although that's not very different from ITP/OTP). Or, maybe Metro Atlanta needs to be renamed Greater Atlanta area, to make it clear what the division is. There's a big difference between Decatur which is 15 minutes' drive from downtown, and Buford, which is almost 1 hours' drive on the highway. --BigPeteB 14:22, 8 April 2011 (EDT)

Proposed new breakdown for "Atlanta" limits

Please go read Talk:Metro Atlanta#Proposed new breakdown for "Atlanta" limits and contribute to the discussion. I consider it part of a large effort to restructure Metro Atlanta, Atlanta, and the districts within Atlanta. --BigPeteB 13:28, 8 May 2011 (EDT)

Multi-level districts

I realize Atlanta is big and all, but it's no New York City. Do we really need sub-districts within districts here? It seems like we should combine some sub-districts and get down to 9-11 single-layer districts. LtPowers 21:57, 27 December 2011 (EST)

I think my answer is "yes, but no". Atlanta is so spread out that it's very helpful to have these subdistricts just for understanding geographic proximity, but I think it could be done in text instead of sub-sub-pages. E.g., take the Atlanta/East page, and in the text group the listings into Virginia Highlands, Little Five Points, etc. So then it would remain as the 6 or so districts that are currently listed. You're probably right that some of the current 6 districts could be split apart some, although I'm not sure where I'd draw the new lines.
As you can probably see, I'd like to do some heavy-handed reorganizing of Metro Atlanta and Atlanta (and have already started some of it) but I've been refraining from doing too much all by myself without input from anyone else. --BigPeteB 09:35, 28 December 2011 (EST)
There's also the method used by Chicago, which has 30+ districts but the districts are grouped on the main page (Manhattan does the same thing). That might work best. LtPowers 20:57, 28 December 2011 (EST)

SWEET TEA IS NOT A SOUTHERN TERM, but a corporate invention

I was born and raised in the south, and the term has ALWAYS been "iced tea." McDonald's put a commercial on television two or three years ago that re-named iced tea as sweet tea, and now this term is everywhere. Ask anyone who was raised here. They will tell you that they NEVER heard anyone say sweet tea until recently. I have lived in the south for fifty years, and I never heard of sweet tea until McDonald's came up with the term.

When ordering in a restaurant, people have always asked for iced tea. The waitress then asks whether you want it sweetened or unsweetened. Some places only sell unsweetened iced tea because you can add sugar or Sweet and Low or whatever you wish to sweeten it. It makes it easier on the restaurant to make it only unsweetened. However, most places give you the choice of sweetened or unsweetened, but ICED TEA is what you order.

Some young people do now suddenly use the term "sweet tea" because they have been brainwashed by a TV commercial. They do not even realize it.

The south is hot, and that is why iced tea came into being in the first place. It really isn't that hard to understand. All it is is hot tea that is cooled and then poured over ice. PERIOD! Incidentally, most people sweeten hot tea, so why not start calling hot tea sweet tea as well?

—The preceding comment was added by MelKel (talkcontribs)

If you can stop shouting for a moment, I think your concerns are a bit overblown. The term has had currency for at least nine years; see Georgia House Bill 819. Although it was a joke bill, it makes clear that the term "sweet tea" was in existence and used well before McDonald's ad of "two or three years ago". Regardless of how it came about, though, "sweet tea" is what the beverage is called today when there is need to distinguish it from the unsweetened variety. Is there a specific change you'd like to see made? LtPowers 11:50, 15 February 2012 (EST)

Get around by foot section

I overhauled the discussion in this section a week or two ago and was surprised to find most of my changes reverted back.

First off, I think it is silly to portray the city in a negative light and by its negative stereotypes by implying that the walkable part of town is so small (Midtown, Downtown, Decatur and Virginia-Highland? That's it?) and by saying that renting a car is "highly recommended." It is also redundant and negative to bother saying that "driving is often faster and more convenient than walking even in the more pedestrian-friendly areas, if you want to maximize your mobility." Most cities, even those with world-class public transit, especially in the U.S., are like this. San Francisco is an extremely walkable city with decent public transit, but driving from one place to another is consistently much faster than walking or taking a bus. Being able to get around easily in a city by foot and transit does not mean being able to get everywhere without a car as fast as you could with a car. It means being able to get around the places you want without a car without too much inconvenience or loss of freedom of mobility over having a car. That is how public transit works in all but the most congested cities worldwide.

The fact is, Atlanta has an urban core -- chiefly, the areas of Midtown, Downtown, the North Highland Ave. Corridor including Poncey and Virginia Highland, Little Five Points, Old Fourth Ward/Sweet Auburn, and the areas in between. In those neighborhoods, the city is highly walkable, and even walking between two of these places is not out of the question. Outside of that core and Buckhead, due to the large and liberally defined area of the city limits, the city contains lots of areas where walking and using transit are hopeless... but what visitor to Atlanta would run out of things to do in the core and have to resort to those parts of the city anyway? When you visit San Francisco, you don't hang out in the Avenues. When you visit New York City, you don't hang out in east Queens. When you travel, you hang out in the interesting parts of the town, which in Atlanta are mostly the core areas (plus Buckhead and Decatur which are not too hard and easy respectively to reach by transit).

Rant aside, this section should paint a realistic but positive picture of the possibilities for getting around without a car in the parts of town that people will want to go. I lived in Atlanta for three years with a car, one year on Georgia Tech campus and two years around Berkeley Park. Berkeley Park was out of the way for transit, but even there it was still not too bad using MARTA (which I did frequently -- I bought monthly MARTA passes instead of paying for parking on Tech campus and often used it to get to other parts of town as well). Now I no longer live in Atlanta but visit often. When I visit, I never have a car and spend a lot of my time exploring on my own. I use transit the whole time, and honestly, I rarely have problems getting anywhere efficiently or less efficiently than transit in any other city would get me around. The only transit trip that ever frustrates me is the extreme cross-town connection between West Midtown and, for example, Little Five Points (often a 40 minute trip due mostly to the idiotic route bus 1 takes). That one is annoying, but most of the time the transit works beautifully. Overall, I've lived in San Francisco before as well, and if you restrict your view to the core places I mentioned, mobility without a car in Atlanta is not far behind mobility without a car in San Francisco (where the situation is similar -- the interesting parts of the city are all highly walkable, but the relatively boring western half is much more difficult).

DJLamar 16:45, 7 April 2012 (EDT)

Hi. I felt that you definitely added lot of useful information, but there was also a lot of fluff; Wikitravel articles tend to accumulate a lot of extra verbiage, so it's best to say what you mean to say concisely. For example, you wrote "A MARTA station makes access to downtown Decatur very easy, and that area is extremely walkable. The town is home to a huge number of excellent bars and restaurants, as well as nice bookstores and coffee shops. Decatur is also one of the most progressive places in the metro area" which reads like an advertisement for Decatur. If Decatur is that wonderful, that should be described 2 or 3 sections up in the District or Understand sections. Details about the politics of MARTA are totally irrelevant to visitors.
Mostly, though, I think that the article needs to present an unbiased opinion... Atlanta is the 20th most walkable city in the U.S., which is not very good. The City of Atlanta scored a walkability score of just 52.9, which is barely above "car-dependent", and that's just the city, not the metro area.
I appreciate your attitude, that the article should "paint a realistic but positive picture of the possibilities for getting around without a car", and I may have been too quick to remove some of your additions. But I think it's also fair, unbiased, and helpful to tell visitors that cars are usually as fast or faster than MARTA. Five Points Station to Lenox Station is 15 minutes by MARTA, and 16 minutes by car... but if you go there by car, you can drive directly to your destination, instead of walking from the MARTA station, so it's going to be faster. And that's just station to station; if you have to take rail and bus (as you do for quite a lot of the activities and restaurants currently listed in the article), I don't see why we shouldn't tell visitors that cars will be faster.
Regardless of what does end up staying in the article, it should be clear and concise; the current paragraph about hotels near transit is pretty wordy.
-- BigPeteB 09:46, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

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