Recently, Evan and myself were discussing several Wikitravel related issues when he asked me about my thoughts about starting a Wikitravel get-together for spring or summer 2007. (It’s kind of like Wikimania, but without all the nerds. :) ) I had the same idea so we began tossing several more ideas about such as; where it should be held and the purpose. The purpose would be brain-storm a few new ideas about Wikitravel, take a break from reality, and to pry ourselves from the computer. We only had a few ideas about where the first location should be - New Orleans or Puerto Rico.
The next day, Maj, Evan, the little Wikitraveller, and myself were walking to the subway station and we discussed the idea again. It seems to me that Maj likes the idea and I believe she had suggested Puerto Rico. She pointed out that the location should be somewhere with a favorable exchange rate for everyone traveling there.
I would like to get this started and planned so that we can make enough preparations for the Wikitrip. I’ll start a shared:Wikitravel Shared:Get-together page later (or we can use Wikitravel:Meetups), but I think we’ll need to hammer out if there would be enough support for the idea, first. We already have three people willing to start a meet up and maybe that’s enough.
Suggestions for locations are welcomed, but please keep in mind:
The destination should easy enough for all Wikitravellers to get to. (I.e. The middle of a desert, where camels are the only mode of transportation isn’t the easiest place to get to.)
The destination should be fairly cheap or moderately price to accommodate travelers from far off galaxies.
The Wikitravel article about the destination ‘’should,’’ but not necessarily, be an article that needs improvement so we can make the destination’s article our CoTW while there.
Does anyone have suggestions, comments, questions, or want to give me money? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 02:29, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
You're reinventing the wheel again, see Wikitravel:Meetups. =) At any rate, it's a neat idea, but I don't think Costa Rica qualifies as "easy to get to" unless you're already in the Americas — from here in Singapore the fastest possible route would take 35 hours of non-stop travel and that's assuming I transit twice in the US. Evan & Maj aren't going to like this, but I'd suggest somewhere in Canada. Jpatokal 02:38, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
I think this is supposed to be much different that just a simple meetup. For one we're all going to be seeing each other for more than an hour-and-a-half. Two the cost of this meetup is significantly higher than a couple of beers at a bar somewhere. As for Costa Rica it was only a suggestion and if we have to we could even go to "USA North." I'd even suggest somewhere Southeast Asian or on North or Central America's west coast. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 02:45, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
The world is big and we have Wikitravellers all over its surface; we're not going to find a spot that's easily accessible for everyone. Fortunately, Wikitravellers are self-selected as people who'd be willing to do a big trip. That said, I think it'd be great to go through some kind of nomination process on Shared, do some voting, and come up with a good venue.
It'd be great to do a meeting that featured travel -- that is, part of the whole point of being there would be to do some travelling and travel writing, with maybe a few hours of sitting in a room with each other and chatting. --Evan 12:30, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
I'm looking forward to seeing as many Wikitravellers as possible, but there's no where that's great for everyone. I think the feeling is that we should aim for a different region of the world each year, starting with North America this year. I'm all for the crazy out-of-the-way places, but it's just as annoying for US residents to leave as it is for others to get in... That said, I think Quebec City could be in the running (though my original suggestion was Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico)... But I'm sure we can find some consensus for something fun and interesting... Maj 12:37, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
People can use hospitality exchange to cut down on hotel costs, in case the meetups are taking place in more expensive countries. Actually, right now I'm working on some kind of content syndication from Wikitravel into CouchSurfing (with edit links directly to Wikitravel). I will also try to get the OpenID stuff into the CouchSurfing Wiki I just set up, and then finally into CouchSurfing. I hope many more CouchSurfers will start to contributing here as well. Guaka 22:09, 15 August 2006 (EDT)
Maj hit it: no one location will be great for everyone. If this goes down in the heat of summer, one of those big parks up north that Andrew mentioned would be a nice break. The Atlantic Provinces are worth exploring, but I'm open to expanding my horizons. SHC 22:32, 15 August 2006 (EDT)
The only time I'm free for long-range travel is Northern hemisphere summer, July and August, since I'm in auniversity job. I imagine something similar would apply for quite a few others — teachers, students and people with kids in school. However, that is high season for many airfares, not the best time to visit some places, and maybe not good for Southern hemisphere wikitravellers. 22.214.171.124 18:24, 17 September 2006 (EDT)
Has the consensus settled on the 2007 get-together being regional, and in this case North America? I recall the suggestion of hemispheres, or is that just too big? If hemispheres, would we go north/south or east/west? Or quadrants? :)
My totally un-scientific guess is that about 8-10 people will show up. I figure that many people can knock up a pretty good city article in a couple of days. A destination with plenty to see/eat/do in the surrounding area would be great, giving us that much more to write about. Can we get a few star articles out of this?
Since people living in the wealthier countries in any given region can probably travel more easily (financially & with respect to getting visas), perhaps the get-together should be in one of the developing countries of the region. People who live in the developing countries have less distance to travel (and hopefully lower cost, though this may not necessarily be true) and may not have to much trouble with immigration. I realize there are a lot of maybes there. Assuming our region for this get-together is North America, how many wikitravellers do we have in Central & South America? How about our Spanish wikitravellers, where do they live? This point is moot if we don't have any wikitravellers living in those countries.
I'm a big fan of getting as far away as possible, which means I'm in favour of Belize or Puerto Rico. :) --Dawnview 03:26, 25 September 2006 (EDT)
Interesting ideas... I like keeping in mind the importance of access for travellers in/from developing countries. On a related note, while it may be a pain for Americans to travel outside the US, I'd think it's even more of a pain for folks travelling into the US. This may bolster the argument for Belize or another non-US-but-close destination. Maj 08:36, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
Right, that's what I was trying to say, only you said it more clearly. :) I was looking at the Wikitravel Shared:Multilingual statistics yesterday and noticed the English, Japanese, German and French sites have the most articles. I had no idea the Japanese site in particular was so big. It would be great if we could get a contingent of Japanese wikitravellers to come out. It seems like we haven't got much input from the other language sites, or maybe they're just lurking on here for now? --Dawnview 12:53, 27 September 2006 (EDT)
I agree. I think having East Asian, European, and other Wikitravellers from around the world converge on one spot for a week would be fantastic. I think it's unlikely that any one spot is going to be equally accessible to everyone (except, of course, the center of the Earth, and there's still variation due to altitude), so we should probably just accept that we'll have one location this year and hopefully get another crew available next year. I also think that it'd be cool in the future to have smaller regional events: a European Confab, an East Asian Confab, a South American Confab, etc. We can continue to have a world-wide one, but we have a lot of options for people who don't want to travel far.
Also, we have the best group of people in the world for this, since they're self-selected as people who like travel. --Evan 15:33, 27 September 2006 (EDT)
So, Sapphire and I talked about the get-together last night on IRC. Here are some ideas we came up with:
Barring major objection, the event will happen from 14 April 2007 -> 22 April 2007. We chose these dates because they're in the spring (cheapest flights, people expressed a preference for this time) and they start about a week after Easter (doesn't conflict with most religious observations). The event spans two weekends and week in between; this should be pretty flexible for people who want to come for the full time, or who just want to come for a long (3,4,5-day) weekend at either end.
It'd be good to have a final destination chosen by Early November. This gives just short of 6 months to plan a trip, which is usually plenty of time for people to get vacation days, pay off their credit cards, make flight plans, and arrange to have someone watch their cat.
It seems fair to choose the destination by voting. The en:Wikitravel:Logo contest seems to have been a successful process, and it would be great to adopt it here. I suggest that we give until 10 October 2006 to propose destinations; that we do a first round of voting before 24 October 2006; and that we do a final vote by 6 November 2006. This gives about two weeks for each step in the process.
Barring objections to the outline and the particulars here, I'll post this schedule to the page and put notices on as many Wikitravel versions as I can write a line in.
Finally: I think the event should be world-wide and multilingual. I think that the model can work for regional events, but for this first event I'd love to make everyone feel welcome. --Evan 11:58, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
I'd originally said that we only counted "Yes" votes, but this process sounds fine. We've had some cutoff times (Oct 24, Nov 6) already published, so I'd rather stick with those dates. The idea being that we give ourselves about 2 weeks for each round of votes. --Evan 16:33, 10 October 2006 (EDT)
I too like the idea of counting "no" votes. I also want to stick with the schedule Evan came up with. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire)
Oops, managed to somehow misread the schedule dates -- deadline is now Oct 24th as it should be. Jpatokal 22:15, 10 October 2006 (EDT)
Although "get together" is descriptive, I wonder if we could come up with a name that's a little more fun, silly, and colorful. I've got some ideas:
...but I'm not completely satisfied. What kind of words could we use for travel, meeting, and exploration? --Evan 12:09, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
Conclave? Does that mean we get wear funny hats and elect one of the participants as Wikitravel's new Pope?
I'd suggest the fairly obvious Expedition. It's already used, of course, but that's why it's nice and recognizable, and I don't think there'll be too much confusion if we dub it. eg "Wikitravel 2007 Expedition to Bent Arm Pit, Wyoming" etc. Jpatokal 14:27, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
OK, I thought of another couple: Busman's holiday is a term for when you go on vacation and do what you do at home anyways. Also, "confab" (short for "confabulation") is a talk or meeting. We could mix it up with "collaboration" to make "collaboration confabulation" or "collab confab" or even "lab fab". --Evan 14:30, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
I'm a fan of conclave. :) How about Walkabout? --Dawnview 14:54, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
Oooooooooh. Walkabout is pretty good. --Evan 20:01, 26 September 2006 (EDT)
I like "Collaboration confabulation" but "Collab confab" sounds fun too. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 00:15, 27 September 2006 (EDT)
So, I'd like to suggest a couple of options for the format of the get-together.
First, I suggest that we pick an upper-level "Budget" or lower-level "Mid-range" hotel as the "home base" for the event. It would be great if the hotel had a conference area. I think it'd be great to have, say, half a day on the first Saturday and half a day on the last Sunday for presentations, talks, discussion sessions, etc.
Second, I suggest that we use the rest of the time to explore our environment, take photos, and do research to beef up the guide for our destination. Some of the things I could see happening:
Visit nearby villages, towns, or natural features
Scour some district of the city
Visit the city's attractions and get detailed notes on the practical issues
Research public transit, transportation options, taxis, etc.
Eat out at restaurants
Par-tay in bars, clubs, or whatever
It's really only limited by the type of information that should be in a travel guide... which is pretty unlimited. I think that people should pick what they want to do themselves, and that we should have a loose public schedule posted on a bulletin board somewhere. It might also be nice to have a loose place to hookup in the morning (hotel restaurant, nearby cafe) and in the evening before dinner around cocktail hour (nearby bar or pub, cafe, hotel bar). Lastly, it would be great to have a nearby place (Internet cafe, whatever) to read email and to post new info.
I think that we'll have the most fun if there are lots of things to do each day; if everyone comes with at least a couple of plans for things to do for a day or half a day; if people feel comfortable cutting off on their own; and if we keep the coordination loose and informal.
OK, that's a lot of talk, but just my suggestions. --Evan 00:33, 28 September 2006 (EDT)
I like it. I've been wondering what exactly the week would look like, so I'm glad you gave us a draft outline. --Dawnview 02:21, 28 September 2006 (EDT)
These are good ideas, but some of them will require significant advance planning. Conference rooms at hotels don't come free, and reserving them can take a great deal of time and effort on someone's part -- not to mention some financial risk. Who's going to set that up, and how will reimbursement be handled? I can imagine the answer to the first question being "the docent for the destination," but if a destination has a docent, it's not clear that there's much incentive, from the standpoint of "improving" the destination's coverage on the various wikis, to meeting there. And the second question remains.
One possible solution is to have this based at or around a university, rather than a hotel. I can at least imagine situations in which a student at a university may be able to arrange meeting space on a low-cost basis (conference-room rental at hotels is definitely not "low-cost"), leaving the travelers to see to their own lodging -- which may be desirable anyway for the sake of covering the destination more thoroughly, and is more consistent with Evan's "loose and informal" suggestion. Do any of the WT students see this as feasible?
Incidentally, any guess as to how many people this might draw? Even an order-of-magnitude estimate would be useful. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:03, 30 September 2006 (EDT)
I think we're gearing for a place that does not have a docent. When Evan and I were talking about this in Cambridge we thought it would be cool to tie it in with CotW. I don't think we're going to draw anything more than 600 people so I doubt we're really going to need a conference center. We could easily meet at a coffee shop or at the a particular hotel then head out to a bar or restaurant. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 23:36, 30 September 2006 (EDT)
Agreed, no need for a "conference center", but even a conference room will still cost something. A plan for dealing with that will be needed, and the plan in turn will require someone to bring it off -- say a "facilitator" rather than a docent (the skill sets are different). -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:26, 4 October 2006 (EDT)
I'm happy to organize the half-day conference room sessions at the beginning and end of the trip, with voluntary donations to defray the costs. It may even be possible to wrangle a free space from the hotel, the local tourism board, a local LUG, school, or university. --Evan 11:01, 10 October 2006 (EDT)
Nope, however, you'll need to check to make sure airlines will allow anyone under 18 fly or if border officals will allow someone under the age of 18 enter the country. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 16:49, 6 October 2006 (EDT)
Well, I doubt my parents would let me go anyway. But I wish you luck!
So, I shifted this page into more of a "voting mode" from the "nominating mode" it was in before. However, I did a fenceposts-and-fencerails calculation error on the date, and I'm starting to realize that we're still open for nominations, at least under some interpretations of the rules. I don't feel like reverting it all back, but let's keep the nominations open for the rest of the day. --Evan 10:57, 10 October 2006 (EDT)
I can't believe everybody is suggesting boring chain hotels like Ibises and Marriotts and whatnot? Esp. in place like Casablanca it would be easy to rent out a villa for a week, and if you can get (say) 4 people to split the rent it'd probably be cheaper. Jpatokal 05:04, 11 October 2006 (EDT)
I too share your preference, but I was half-assing and just clicked on Travelocity to find out about accommodations in Casablanca. The one problem we have is if we figurin' how many beds we'll need, or villas. Maybe we should have an RSVP deadline? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 05:35, 11 October 2006 (EDT)
Somebody has probably done some research on this topic, so is it possible to stay at PR for significantly less than $100/night? I've joined WikiTravel today, but I'd like to join the Get-together, sounds fun. I can sleep on the floor, no problem :) --Smartus 16:03, 7 January 2007 (EST)
One cheap option is Castro's Guest House  ($20-40). It might be more interesting to rent out an apartment: eg. this one can house up to 6 people and goes for $1200/week, which works out to just $28/night if we can fill it up for the full seven days. For three people, they drop the price to $1000, which is still a fairly reasonable $48/night. Jpatokal 01:20, 31 January 2007 (EST)
And this place looks pretty nice too: Andalucia Guest House. Free jacuzzi and, more importantly, free Wifi! Singles from $89, two-bedroom suites from $129. Jpatokal 01:27, 31 January 2007 (EST)
Barring a miracle it looks like Tbilisi, Bora Bora and Montevideo are definately not going to make it so how do we decide which nominees make it onto ballot for the second round of voting?
I think anything with more yes votes than no votes should make it on to the next round and any destination with an equal number of no and yes votes should not pass on to the next round. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 01:48, 22 October 2006 (EDT)
It's already listed: The top 3 destinations will then go on to a second round of voting from 25 October 2006 -> 6 November 2006. Each registered user can give one (1) vote for one (1) of the three top destinations.Jpatokal 02:47, 22 October 2006 (EDT)
Now, I see that. -- Sapphire
One more thing. I think we should start developing a proposed schedule for the second round of voting. I.e. I'd come up with a more detailed, but still not finite schedule for Morocco. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 06:01, 22 October 2006 (EDT)
With three days to go, there are only seven votes so far. While the number of votes may not map exactly to the number of participants, one would think that people with enough interest in the outcome to attend a Get-together would have preferences as to where it is. Accordingly, I am not convinced that that's enough for this whole idea to fly. Do we need to establish some kind of "critical mass" if this is going to go forward? Or are seven participants enough? After all, you gotta start somewhere... -- Bill-on-the-Hill 15:17, 3 November 2006 (EST)
In organizing events, I've found that a surety of purpose is the best way to make this kind of thing happen. I think that more people will come than have voted in this discussion, but I also think it's unlikely that we'll have more than 20 participants. I think that's fine -- a manageable number of interesting people having fun and doing travel-guide research on an island together. In a couple of years, those people will brag about how great it was in the Good Old Days before there were too many people... B-) --Evan 00:28, 4 November 2006 (EST)
It's a 3-3 tie between Puerto Rico and Crete right now — the voting will continue until someone casts the tiebreaker! Jpatokal 23:09, 5 November 2006 (EST)
Should we eliminate Morocco from the ballot? -- Sapphire
No need -- Puerto Rico wins! Jpatokal 22:39, 6 November 2006 (EST)
Alright, so as far as I can tell it's time to begin planning. Should we create a Get-together/2007 schedule page and use that to develop ideas about the event? The format could be broken down by day and event or another system.
Something like this:
* '''Tour of San Juan''' - 10:00 - 11:30
* '''Lunch''' - 11:30 - 12:45
* '''Scuba diving''' - 13:00 San Juan
* '''El Chupacabra Hunt''' - 16:00 25 minutes outside of San Juan
* Open ended.
Sign up if you'd like to come.
* [[User:Sapphire|Andrew Haggard (Sapphire)]] 06:42, 8 November 2006 (EST)
* Hotel A might be a good choice or Hostel B.
Picture any heading you want the above example are just that an example of what we could use. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 06:42, 8 November 2006 (EST)
That seems a little excessively detailed at this point, although we can certainly start brainstorming activities. But I think the voting stuff should be archived and we should lay out the practicalities here. Why not just pin down the biggies for starters: who's coming and where to stay? Jpatokal 07:29, 8 November 2006 (EST)
Of course RSVPing and and knocking out the accommodations should be the top priorities. The above example doesn't concern the minute details, but rather how do we go about organizing the organizing of the event. Any ideas for that? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 08:39, 8 November 2006 (EST)
I'm with Jani: first things first. A "planning" resource seems like a reasonable thing to have, whether as a separate page or on the main Get-together page, as long as it starts with the top-level stuff. Problem is, your example does "concern the minute details." I think you intended that as an illustration of the end state, right? How about, instead of populating details of an outline, start with just what the outline for the planning page might look like? A basic who-what-where-when-why-how should do the trick for that, at the top level. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 09:53, 8 November 2006 (EST)
That's exatly what I was going for, but ended up with an illustration that seems to have conveyed something other than what I was trying to convey. I feel your headers are more appropriate and the ones I used were just to generate ideas. -- Sapphire
I like keeping things fast and loose. I think the day-by-day schedule has to be more informal even when we're on the trip. I'd much rather have a few activities listed per day, like "Visit Vieques overnight" or "day trip to Arecibo" with one person's name next to each activity (maybe). It seems to me in the spirit of the trip to leave open a lot of exploration.
Maybe the next step is to make a sign-up sheet where people who are thinking about going can put their names down, without firm commitment (and I think the only reason is to attract others), and we should find a hotel that'll be our "preferred" location. I'd also like to start scouting for locations for the more formal meetings on the first and last weekend. --Evan 10:17, 8 November 2006 (EST)
So, I think it'd probably be a good idea to contact the PR CVB to let them know we're coming. They'd probably have some advice for where to go, and might even lend facilities to us. --Evan 12:04, 31 January 2007 (EST)
You kind of left us hanging on that comment. Were you planning to contact them or just gathering opinions? I say it's a good idea. When I asked the Windsor CVB for information about Windsor, Ontario they gave us a tour around the city, discounted accommodation, and a special letter that got us into any attraction for free. Unfortunately, I went up there with someone that did not appreciate everything they did for us, but CVB's can really help our guides. After I got back from Windsor I converted all of the listings to the coded listings and added information about crossing the borders, and whatever else I could think of. The CVB then went behind me and filled in driving directions. It worked out pretty well, but it would have been better if they were able to relicense their images. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:54, 31 January 2007 (EST)
OK, I'm going to call this one tomorrow. --Evan 23:31, 21 February 2007 (EST)
Just a follow-up: I've made a couple of calls, and I should be talking to someone more fully on Monday. I'm offering to have someone from the Tourism Company meet with us on the first day of the G-T to talk about PR and help us make our plans (or whatever). --Evan 16:36, 23 February 2007 (EST)
Anybody interested in camping at the Caribbean National Forest  for a day or two? The site says there are no dedicated camping spots and that campers choose their own spot. Permits can be picked up day of.
Also, has anyone contacted the CVB? Are we doing San Juan only? If not, does that mean were staying in San Juan, doing day trips? We've only got two months left and I'd like to nail down (or at least narrow down) some things so I (and I'm sure others) can plan my (our) trips and decide about how long I (we) may stay. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 06:45, 21 February 2007 (EST)
See that part where it says "exciting tropical rain forest"? "Exciting" means "lots of bugs", "tropical" means "hot, humid and windless" and when they say "rain forest", they aren't kidding. Camping in these conditions is kinda tough going if you're not acclimatized and well-equipped.
And I think the basic plan is to base ourselves in San Juan, and then day/overnighttrip from there. Jpatokal 11:24, 21 February 2007 (EST)
AFAIK the island only takes about an hour and a half to drive across, so I think home-base in SJ with day & overnight trips is our best bet... 126.96.36.199 21:18, 27 February 2007 (EST)
Actually, plan on 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 hours to drive from SJ to the western coast. I just got back from Rincon and it took us more than three hours to get back to SJ (although our drive was during rush hour). North to south is probably 1 1/2 hours. -- Fastestdogever 09:15, 4 April 2007 (EDT)
So now that we're all off the beach and back to "real life," I'd like to archive the planning stuff and make space for next years as well as add a nice wrap-up report for posterity. There was also some talk about creating a "lessons learned" section to discuss how to make next year's Get-together *even better* (though maybe that can go on a talk page?)! One question I have is if we want to start a hierarchy like:
Get-together - main page explaining the event with links info on upcoming and past events
Was anyone interested in having a get-together this year? I'm likely to be unable to attend, unless one is held in after October (when I finish Basic Training), but I think it would be a nice way to grow and strengthen the community. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 11:50, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
I brought this up some time ago, but got distracted by school and Basic Training, but, I'd like to get a 2008 Get-together going, or at least a 2009 one. Would anyone be interested in that? I might just go ahead an plunge forward with a few ideas I've had and if 2008 doesn't seem logical, then we can just update things as they go. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 10:01, 1 September 2008 (EDT)
Wikipedia has an annual conference. Has anyone thought of having a Wikitravel Conference? Collaborative efforts round the table to upgrade weak pages...training in mapmaking, etc. etc.Shep 03:11, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
While I'd love the concept of a get-together (If I actually had the money to anywhere at the moment), I think a conference might be pushing it a bit. Especially since the number of regular users engaging in the running/policing/etc of the site, and not just adding the odd piece of content, hovers around some 50 people for the site as a whole, and are spread all over the world. I'd love to meet some IB people in real life though :). --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 20:32, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
Although it would definitely be awesome to say "let's all go to Addis Ababa and make it a star article, I have to agree that there aren't enough people (especially those with enough money) to do that. The closest Wikitravel has is the Collaboration of the month, and the current collaboration could use more contributors! If you know anything about the city or are willing to do a little research, please do! You can also nominate cities for future collaborations. ChubbyWimbus 20:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
Actually, Wikitravel has already had a couple of get-togethers, see shared:Get-together for the list. Feel free to propose another, IB has already hinted that they would be willing to sponsor it a bit. Jpatokal 22:39, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
We've already got about half as many people in Chicago as we'd need to have a "get-together." Just throwing that out there ;) --PeterTalk 23:18, 7 July 2009 (EDT)