OK, I have 5 after, so I'm going to start up. ok Thanks to everyone for coming today. I know it was short notice, and I appreciate that you could make the time to be here. I've got a lot to say, and we have a lot of people here, so I'm going to ask that people let me finish my little prepared speech, and then we can open stuff up for questions. I'll say "Any questions?" when I'm ready for questions. OK? K great k k ok ok One thing that makes me very happy in my life right now ... k ok ... is that so many people from all over the world ... ... are working so hard to make great travel guides on Wikitravel. I'm not going to pretend that Wikitravel was an exceptional idea. Many people have had a similar idea. A lot of users put on their user page, "I thought about having a wiki travel guide, and then I found Wikitravel, so now I'm here to help!" But I do think that as a project we've executed very well. We've taken some hard decisions together and ended up on top. One of the decisions you've made, either consciously or unconsciously, has been to continue to trust Maj and myself to be stewards for your project. I'm very proud of that. It's one of the things I'm most proud of. I can give a lot of numbers that show that we're successful: 1.2 million (visits per month), 13,500 (total guides), 7000+ (total registered users), 50,000+ (total users) ... ... but I think the real sign of our success is that we've got such excellent guides. I use Wikitravel guides as our travel guide wherever we go (to Maj's chagrin, sometimes) ... ... and I think more and more people are doing that. B-) And that success has come from making good decisions. Making those decisions has meant that we haven't been able to do everything that people wanted. In particular, we've really been strict about consensus, community, being fair, objectivity, etc. Opinion, personal experience and stories, haven't been welcome. This has been great for keeping us focused, but it's meant that a lot of people with information to share and give get turned off and turned away. There's a Wiki term called EnlargeSpace: http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?EnlargeSpace This means that when you are trying to choose what goes where, maybe one way to do it is to make lots of places, and have different stuff go in different places. We think that we're at a point in our momentum where it's time to Enlarge our Space to include more personal information. I know this is going all over the map, but bear with me, because I _do_ have a point. B-) So another thing that I've regretted about Wikitravel is this: we haven't had a really clear word-of-mouth for people. When someone says, "Hey, have you tried that wiki travel guide?" there's a 50-50 chance that the answer is, "You mean World66?" For those of you who don't know it, World66 is another Open Content, Creative Commons, Wiki-edited travel guide. Depending on how you look at it, they've been around longer or shorter than Wikitravel, and they have more or fewer travel guides. They have almost exactly our same goals, and they have our same license, and if they differ from us it's more in details than in the core. They've actually had a lot more traffic that we have over the last few years, but lately Wikitravel has really caught up. We're neck and neck. I think it's been bad for Wikitravel to have a competitor like this. We don't talk about it much, and it's not like we're always saying, "Let's kill World66!" But they compete with us for resources: editors, readers, and attention. First, people don't know about one because they know about the other. Or they know about both, and they think, "I'll wait till they figure out what they're doing, THEN I'll go contribute." Or they choose one or the other, and each community is smaller and less diverse than it could be. And, yes, I know that non-English Wikitravel versions don't feel this same issue, but hear me out. >>>>> If you've fallen asleep, get ready, because this is the announcement part. <<<< So we've got two problems: we have a next door neighbor who's crowding us, and we need more space. And the answer we've come up with for this is: let's tear down the fences. Wikitravel is going to join forces with World66. We're going to have both sites work together, and gradually we're going to blend them into a single, cohesive user interface. We're going to emphasize the strengths of both sites (objective, consensus on Wikitravel, personal opinion and experience on World66) and very slowly build features and combine content to make that happen. Wikitravel <--- objective this way personal this way ---> World66 No, this is not yet the time for questions. B-) We really think that combining the content, communities, and mindshare of these two sites is going to rocket our project forward. We think that combining them will make something that's bigger than the sum of its parts. Just like people today know that if you want to work on an Open Content encyclopedia, you go to Wikipedia, in the near future people will know that there's one Open Content travel guide. I, for one, think that's going to rock. Some quick answers to things you're wondering: this is going to be a commercial venture. There is a company, Internet Brands, that now owns wikitravel.org and world66.com. That company will be funding new development and growth that will make Wikitravel, and its new World66 pal, bigger, easier, more stable, and more comprehensive. Maj and I will be working on this project full time from now on. Spooked yet? Don't be. That said, I want you to remember that this is YOUR project. I want you to know that WE remember it. You have given us your trust to host your project for 3 years now, and I hope you can give us the benefit of the doubt that we're going to do the right thing here. I know that there are some people who are going to want to bolt as soon as they hear "commercial". And I understand that. Some people don't think Open Content or Creative Commons guides are compatible with a commercial venture. I hope that everyone here is ready to look at this with an open mind and see what happens. We think that a commercial company can be a good host for a community. some people are going to be scared that there's a hidden agenda. I'll tell you right now: the way this company is going to make money is by putting ads on the site. Not tomorrow, not next month, but that's the plan. We're going to consult with the community, set up some clear guidelines, but there will eventually be unobtrusive, targeted ads on the site. Not porn, not punch-the-monkey, not popups. They won't get in your way, but they'll be there. I'm saying this so you know we aren't going to do something evil instead. We're not going to sell your data to marketers or insert brain flukes or download spyware to your computer. We're just gonna have ads. So, what's this gonna mean? For the short term, it's going to mean that Wikitravel works exactly the way it does today. And World66 works the way it does. In the long term, we're going to have personal opinion, reviews, ratings, stories, blogging, bookmarks, photo sharing, etc. It's not going to get in the way of the wiki, and if you don't want to use it you don't have to. But we hope it's going to let people take baby steps into the wiki world, and provide a good steam release for other needs. We're going to make it so if you have a blog or photo album, you can include that in your Wikitravel space If you have bookmarks at del.icio.us or simpy or whatever, you can include those or you can use special tools we provide We want to provide a place for people to do their travel thing You folks are the first to know this. Over the next few days, we're going to be announcing it to the most active Wikitravel users, and then to the general public. That means we're going to have a lot of people asking questions, a lot of the public hearing about this project for the first time, and World66ers coming to sniff around and check out what we do. It's not going to be easy, but I think by this time next year we're going to be saying, "WOW" WOOOOOOOOOOOW I've talked a lot, and now I think I should stop trying to anticipate your comments and open up the floor. Thanks for listening to me for so long --> guaka (n=kasper@200.121.141.26) has joined #wikitravel-admin And please queue up a bit and let's let everyone who has something to say say it without running all over each other (hi) guaka: you missed the punch line just in time guaka B-) *clears throat* OK, here it comes: Any questions? (what's the punchline?) *raises hand* you'll know in a minute Riggwelter_sv: yes? ok, ten seconds First of all, I am a bit scared, but I must confess I think it is a very interesting idea, and I will love to work with it. Q1: Where do we admins enter the stage? Good question So, the answer is: what you've always done how do *we* get paid? ;)\ kidding... *content with answer* This new venture is going to be taking the place that Maj and I have had so far Not editors' place, not admins' place We're not going to be poking around in community policy or guidelines or anything OK, well, no more than we do already We just dont have to be up at 2am rebooting the db... Q2 S/W design issues, bugs, technical issues? Riggwelter_sv: like, how will those work, get fixed, get improved? Correct speaking of design issues ... I think we're going to keep the same kind of pipeline for bugs and feature requests (could anyone scroll back send a quick copy of stuff I missed to kasper.souren@gmail.com? thanks :) I'm on it... But there's going to be more time to be devoted to them will do quaka And more eyes on them majnoona: thx sorry guaka I forgot to mention That we're going to be moving to bigger, faster servers very soon *claps hands* Yeah *Queue* ilkirk: yes? *shuts up* Are we sticking with the MediaWiki(?) platform after the "merge"? ilkirk: YES Good one *phew* For the foreseeable future, Wikitravel will run on MediaWiki HOWEVER It will not necessarily be the MediaWiki you know We've been talking to Wikimedia, Wikia (Jimbo Wales's company), and other MediaWiki sites *question* About how we can contribute to make the software better We want to make it faster, easier, and more flexible And that's going to be working with Wikipedia etc., and Open Source software So MediaWiki Same as Wikimedia sites But better over the next year as we can apply time and energy to improving it Sorry Rikouman: ? so world66 only exists in Engish...so what about the other languages, do we keep it? are other languages going to be available? Oh! Yes! mais oui! That's one of the big strengths that we bring to the mix MULTILINGUALISM Utmärkt ;) We want to continue to expand and support the non-English versions how? By having more language versions And making sure all new features are available to all and the "support" bit? I think we're going to depend a lot on the same communications mechanisms ah OK. Coming in and going out to the non-English versions One thing is We'll try to make sure that software can be localised in the same way MediaWiki is now So if you notice something in English, you can just change it and its done It works really well I know it's tedious But our non-English versions work so much better now that we're doing that I think it works fine..... Oh, speaking of publicity: the news must of course be translated into the local lanugage versions Yes so it would be nice to have the same news in all sites at roughly the same time.... So here's the deal: we're going to have a similar IRC announcement tomorrow for the top Wikitravel contributors Riggwelter_sv: that's a great idea I hadn't thought of that do you plan to give us an english version....a "press release"......which we can translate...and publish? So, if I send around a copy of the announcement we want to do over the next couple of days... ...you can translate and put up on the site? ....then we will publish it. Javisst! Eh, yes, of course We're planning on Thursday morning North American time. *comment* xltel: yes? ok, I translate and publish I like all of this... Great! I think we might want to elivate more to admin status always More users? This could really swarm on us there are a couple of good candidates I think... xltel: yeah, but I think it might be tight right now I mean, we'd have to rush some people in true... *comment* Riggwelter_sv: yes? Is local language stewards a good idea? I have asked that q on WT before, I think. hey, can we have kindof a roll-call moment? I want to hear from the folks who have been silent so far. gah, bureaucrats, I mean Riggwelter_sv: with more users I think that's going to be necessary *queue* And probably have the go-betweens do that job ilkirk: yes? I may be thinking to far ahead - but how do the two get combined? I'm looking at World66 right now... Right ... and the lack of templating hurts me. :) Mmm-hmm (I'm too anal about stuff...) I know no such thing! the thing I don't like is the way every little thing has its own page No, it's a good point So here's the thing: W66 has about 2-3000 destinations in common with Wikitravel en: And about 5-7000 that we don't have at all I'm glad about the merge, though I'm not sure about the ads, and the whole thing becoming commercial. I have been waiting a _long_ time for Wikitravel database dumps, and I think that WT becoming commercial might actual cause this to never happen... Also, I wonder what is going to happen to the license. Oh! The license! must upgrade must upgrade must upgrade Wellllll OK hold on FIRST The license of course stays the same It's a COPYLEFT license yes, but it was mentioned before that World66 stuff couldn't be copied into Wikitravel, because of its license issues... The copyright owners are the users So the license stays until we upgrade guaka: yes So we've talked with the World66 guys about this Because it was a big concern --> JanSlupski (n=follow@host-ip80-37.crowley.pl) has joined #wikitravel-admin also, I think it would be very good to upgrade to a newer version of the CC license... they had a poorly planned upgrade, this is the problem Their feeling is this: there was just a narrow band of time that W66 was GFDL... ....and that we can filter those changes, and/or get consent to upgrade Hi there, sorry for being late... JanSlupski: you missed out! JanSlupski: can you send an email to maj@wikitravel.org? And she'll send you a transcript of what's gone by so far? Also: thanks for coming! I've been talking with the girl who did the French translation (linguistic and legal) of CC, and she doesn't see any problem with upgrading from 1.0 to any later version... I'll do on it... OK, so for me the license upgrade is a real priority Let me see if I've got everything that and the look&feel ;) Big priorities are 1) license upgrade 2) DB dumps Got to go folks... This is good news, Wikitravel66 will explode.... cu everyone later 3) look and feel improvements AUGH! *waves* ttfn xltel We have to think of a better name than that! B-) LTRZ xltel WikiWorld? Enjoy the snow! I think wikitravel is definitely a better name than world66... I think Wikitravel is a pretty good name Well, the two sites are gonna stay around I was just about to ask about the name..... and we ARE going to KEEP it With wikitravel.org being the wiki-part And world66.com moving more towards personal-opinion and travel home <-- xltel (n=IRC@208.46.227.51) has left #wikitravel-admin so both sites will still exist? smart Since, y'know, it doesn't have "wiki" in the name Rikouman: yes Rikouman: for a while *question* (((( MORE SPACE )))) ilkirk: yes So there are people from World66 that are coming into the project with you and Maj? Yeah There are 4 founders from W66 Who are going to be participating so do we have a name already for the joined project? (I met two of them... they seem okay... (but never paid their part of the cab ride, but well, they're Dutch (like me) ;)) lol LimboDancer: no Probably a good question We've just been saying Wikitravel/World66 Oh, one big thing: but I think we can say that the two domains will remain for the forseeable future then I suggest "Travel Diary" This is still private, by the way We want to talk to top wikitravellers directly We don't want them to learn it from blogs or newspapers or whatever We think we owe them better So please don't blab this *question* If you provide us with the press release, stating when you want it to be published, we will put it on when you want us to. I hope that is the most agreeable solution? Riggwelter_sv: yes that's great k. just send another mail, with this info, or simply this transcript :) as a follow up for those who are missing this... guaka: yes I'll try to summarize ilkirk: yes? How isn't this going to become something that looks or feels like MySpace or some other dump of useless information? Blogs, etc, etc worry me. so, hey *hands up and waving* oooh.....good q!!! ilkirk: yeah I know what you're saying And _no_ I think MySpace was an actual example of what we do not want to do... *waving around frantically* First, that stuff stays -----------------> over here off the wiki *tell me my typing is not going into the void* ocho_ha: ok, ok, I hear you wait one sec I think articles on travel blogs can be useful for travellers... if from some wikitravel article... you can put links to possibly useful blog articles... that's cool :) this is IMPORTANT ocho_ha: OK go we do not, I believe I can say this for my fellow Wiktravellers, like secrecy (sp) ... not my strong suit we MUST have open accounting this is vital and not negciable (sp) ... not my strong suit I know I mean it Yeah, I hear you ok done Open accounting...? So I hear it Can I comment on the Mybloggy issue? we gotta see the books If it were my decision to make unilaterally I would tell you what I can that's the problem But I hear what you're saying OK the very crux hey, it is a commercial venture. It has limits. Yes if it was just you I probably wouldn't care B-) but since it's not I gotta see the books no compromise OK I'll see what I can do I do not like the secrecy thing that seems to be imposed by the World66 guys I'm cool with commercial, heck I'm always trying to figure out some way to get paid The secrecy should be terminated ASAP. but I'm not cool with folks saying different things in different contexts like I said, there will be no compromise on the secrecy issue it stops now Uh Well No, it continues for a couple days Please well... ok I like the merging idea. I think it is the only way for Wikitravel to stay alive on a long-term basis...if we have to compete with a tough competitor like World66. If you cannot beat them... that's not what I meant ocho_ha: I hear you but seriously they can't expent to run the show from behind a mirror fewer days > more days cjxyzzy: Thursday morning is the press release I love the idea of all of this, but I was offended by the secrecy even before I knew what was going on We want to have a similar meeting like this for the top couple hundred Wikitravellers I'm sorry about that So, thursday April 27? Our point is to tell as many people face to face as we can Riggwelter_sv: 20 April K. Very soon We want to let the admins know first, which mean letting other people know a little later... good idea. we don't want people to get a point where it's like, "How come I didn't know?" We're doing this as quick as we can so the press release takes place on Thursday morning, US time. What aubout the Wikitraveler's meeting? it makes sense to give folks a feeling of inclusion but this is about including as many people as possible Rikouman: we're going to try to shift it later, unfortunately so says the goals Rikouman: I'm going to send out an email To top contributors by edits We're going to try to hit top 50% of edits so, they may learn it by the press? Which has turned out to be about 2-300 people Rikouman: top contributors at the meeting tomorrw Rikouman: I'm going to send out an email *question* Riggwelter_sv: yes Speaking of the press Yes This reminds me If people are willing to speak to the press about Wikitravel are you going to make some sort of press release....like officially, to UP, AP, and other press agencies? Riggwelter_sv: yes Gr8 *question* We have PR people who are working on this It's pretty plain and public-oriented We think we should give a better explanation to users familiar with the site ilkirk: yeah? Which is another reason we want to have a real conversation with the community Can I hear Maj's opion on the MyBloggy stuff? :) OK. A good idea would be to provide us a communiqué as soon as possible, so we could publish it as the press released ends *smile* *question - after maj's opinion* So, I do not blog. I am not a blogger... But not a day does not go by where I dont remove someones personal something from Wikitravel I would like a place to direct these people so they can take their first-person pronounds out of our travel guide ;-) B-) If you area also not of blogging, I invite you to think of it like other parts of the site you may not use, such as Off Road Biking in Oregon or Trekking in Nepal or Shoppin in Hollywood The travel-experience is a vast one, if there are things we're talking about that do not interest you, you will not be bothered by them... in fact you will be less bothered by them than you are now ;-) Also, MySpace is dreadful. That's all Riggwelter_sv: I think you have the floor I forgot what I was going to ask....get on with it, I assume it comes back to me soon. MySpace is horrible, but until Wikitravel is more famous I have to use to to visit with some old friends.. ;) so let's talk accounting... Yes we're workin on it... cool yes ocho_ha: this message delivered loud and clear There are still some folks we haven't heard from... thank you. It's good to know one is heard. not that we don't like to here from you ocho! j'espere que oui James? Jan? Nothing? I suggest a roll call to facilitate for all yet unheard... well, i think it's a good idea in principle - i'm with mark (ocho) when it comes to openess in accountancy I just realized that nobody's been watching Recent changes for the last hour B-) *question* I hope the site's still there Can I ask a quick question of y'all? Who here *would* use a cool travel-centric bloggy-photo-bookmarky thingy? ravikiran: YES! Thanks for coming, by the way Uh, I can multitask I would probably not. How much control would the company want on the content? majnoona, many people I know... especially if you can also add video... (re: recent changes: the price of coconut water has gone up $1 in Rio) ravikiran: none I would be sort of inclined to use it... if I weren't already using flickr the content is produced by the community maj: I would say - not likely (but maybe) ocho_ha: so our idea was Maj: I suppose I might... ocho_ha: what if you could have a flicker stream into the new site? If you've got a Flickr account that would be cool You could tag stuff travel or voyage or whatever oops, sorry E And pull the stream in there And if you have a blogger blog or WordPress or pretty much anything that supports RSS or Atom... yes! The tagging! You could pull in a category of that And bookmarks Etc. And if you had a photo album but not a blog, then you use the one that's provided if you want Oh Ravikiran you're fast on the rollback! And all this is Creative Commons licensed stuff so we can cherry pick for the wiki there is another big question that nobody is raising 7 minutes! not fast.. I really just though of this so, if the new holding company goes bust what happens to the fancy new servers? And all that data? they'll be gone right? And everybody's work for the last N years? Right? don't worry about that I have the data B-) I'm worried about the hosting wouldn't donations be a more stable model in some ways ? ocho_ha: that depends I'm not going to name names, because I don't want to embarrass anyone understand, I support this move. I just want to cover all objections I can think of. But donations-based sites bottom out when the attention's off but it's wiki, and growing faster than linear... ...so if Internet Shares goes BR.....what happens.....? We're looking to use our resources (Web presence) to generate revenue (ad revenue) to support the project (make travel guides) one can always besmirch the name of some Kennedy hanger-on if attention is needed But as far as post-bankrupcy, or explosions, or whatever I don't have a good answer to that besides which, 99.9% hosting is easy (the fools who buy it don't realize that means several days down a year) 99.999% is expensive if it's free software and the dumps are available it won't be a big issue... alright then. how do we get it hosted after a collapse? call Wikimedia Foundation? :) this is due dilegence our community needs to do or Jimbo personally... or set up something new.. Yeah But do us a favor and let us take a shot at it first B-) :) ok Don't bury us yet sounds fine we just need a back-up plan Yeah It seems to me the only reason Wikimedia hasn't already done travel is because Wikitravel exists. Any guess if that will change? They seem a little preoccupied these days... cjxyzzy: yeah, that's a good question yeah, one thing to add here in case of a bust, I'm more worried about more than one fork... I think that first of all Wikimedia's not unfriendly to commercial wiki ventures Especially if they're Open Content After all, the Chairman has an open content wiki company but that's his personal business... Yes I think you need to do an FMEA here....a failure mode and effects analysis. sorry, I have to leave. See you soon! ttfn Limbo. but, I don't think Wikimedia would actually start something like that... LimboDancer: thanks! (like wikitravel) guaka: I think they will if we screw it up I _hope_ they will if we screw it up yes, I'm sure they will :) and I'm also sure that they won't as long as WT/W66 doesn't screw up :) But I think there's room in the wiki world for a diverse ecology i gotta go as well..... back to work tmrw morning! pjamescowie: thanks for coming! bye pjames regards to all! I just meant they wouldn't start anything as long as WTW66 is alive and kicking Hey, I hate to be a nag, but as folks are leaving, just a reminder: keep this under your hats svp! *question* JanSlupski: yes? <-- LimboDancer has quit () I have briefly read the Maj's summary. (will reread to be sure if I understand well), but question: Did the process of joining/merging already started? shall do! mum's the word! And if yes, and most of wikitravel users would happen to be against it, or something else will make you change your mind, is there still way back? My concerns does not mean that I'm against personally (don't know yet what to think), but I can imagine that (for example) Wikipedia could grow much worse if there are commercial adds all around. bye all <-- pjamescowie has quit ("Leaving") of course, but remember it bothers us you could actually make it optional for users who log in... some of them might not wanna see adds... Well, I think we're going to real avoid the "all around" aspect I mean, how many of you stopped using Google? JanSlupski: so, right now, the point is that Maj and I are taking what we've done for the last 3 years... ... not as admins or community members, but hosting and sysadmining and stuff ... this issue was raised at Wikimania... there was a discussion about ads on wikipedia, and after Jimbo spoke, the general consensus was that there will never be ads.. who cares about ads? I think more people need to understand that Open Content is perfectly compatible with commerce. maj: ok, even without "all around" I think statement can be true ... and transfer that job. "stopped using google" is not the right comparison I think.. there's no choice... with Wikitravel there might be someone coming in and creating a mirror without ads... Maj: about Google - it is service where you take from, but do not give to it, and this is the differenc in my opinion well, maybe we just have to be that good ;-) order, order.... Maj: and in Wiki-like things people can be negative to put their work, when thinking that soebodey else will make profit on that JanSlupski: I think that those people have to take a look at our goals Our goals are to have guides that can be used by _anybody_ well, the primary goal of any healthy company is to make profit... anybody can print, bind, and *sell* these guides Yes Which I think is _great_ anybody can mirror and sell adds I hope they do Yes Evan, but some wiki users are against any commercial use, whatever the goals are but there wont be any profit if there isn't a healthy/happy community, right? ads, (sp) sorry Evan: Yeah, I understand that and I really admire your personal input Rikouman, they shouldn't contribute to a CC-BY-SA wiki... I think there are going to be some users like that those wiki users who are against commercial use don't understand Free Content Evan: and I believe that it could be quite substantial expences for you too JanSlupski: maintaining the site? those commerces who think you can have secrecy don't understand Wiki Developing new software? but that's not about me, but about average contributor JanSlupski: yes true I think the main thing we want to say to those people is: give us a chance ocho_ha: there are lot's of wikitravel clones, with ads, etc. and what? there is still one main wikitravel JanSlupski: of course the wikitravel.org We know that we have to earn the community's trust JanSlupski, yeah, but there might be a clones without ads after wikitravel starts with ads... one with lots of conributors and without adds sure, why not? all the better to spread the bandwith problem guaka: yes, but I wish wikitravel.org all the best and I want it to be that main one that is target of all people that wants to contribute * guaka is going for some food now... bbl ocho_ha: not really. do wikitravel.org has benefit any contibutions from thirdparty mirrors? dood, it's like 10pm guaka, or are you in a-dam? I do not have much to add....or ask.....right now. I look forward to the press release. Are there any 3rd pary mirrors that take contributions? There may be taking from mirrors, but all the involvement and giving happens at wikitravel.org I agree with all voices about cost, sharing bandwitch etc. I just want to rise the issue that having ads, spreading attention between several (ads, and adds-free) services, etc. may end up in loosing valuable input from users I think this group here is proof that people are interested in sharing as much (if not more) than getting I think it will actually allow more input from users... I know there are folks who have contributed once and had there personal info removed from a guide who haven't come back again Again: I think this is the only way for WT to go. I look forward to it. But, I am off now....ttyl! Thanks for sharing. If we have a place for everyone's different type of travel expression, then we give a)ourselves another source of info for the wiki guides and b)users an easy-entry into the WIkitravel world Thanks! *waves* bye! <-- Riggwelter_sv (n=Mattias@81-232-39-49-no36.business.telia.com) has left #wikitravel-admin I think that if done well, this is a GREAT idea. many things have to be done right and many things can go wrong. it will all depend on how muc you listen to community input while you are doing it. I think we're planning on listening to the community 100% and telling the community as close to 100% as possible majnoona > sure. But kow are we going to deal with them now ? What are we going to do if someone add personal experience in Wikitravel? Evan and I know from web sites, we know what makes something like Flickr cool and MySpace lame (sorry again to myspacians)... it's the community of users Rikouman: good question sorry to keep harping on... but it's not just me and so? I'd love to go back through the logs and find everyone who's had a personal contribution deleted and invite them back I think after Thursday we'll be able to give them 'some hope' about having a place for their contributions--- I think *recognizing* the validity of what they are trying to do will go a long way ok. I've got to sleep folks. good night and best of luck right now we're pretty much saying they're SOL, sorry, bye.... and we'll be able to do more than that right away <-- ravikiran (n=ravikira@59.164.22.123) has left #Wikitravel-admin Bye! Thanks for your' input--- btw, y'all are of course invited to email / chat / aim us with anything that hasn't been addressed enough here... heck, we'll give you a phone call if you think it'll help... Back to Rikouman.... we're going to try and rollout a personal space asap... it's got to be community driven tho -- that's one of the reasons we're not just springing it on folks we never want people to go to sleep with one site-- WT or W66 -- and wake up in the morning with something totally different (no matter what time zone they're in) Ok, my question about if the choosen way is final, continued... I'm not sure if I did understand what wikitravel.org would finally become, but I understand the goal is to merge more-or-less wikitravel with W66. Did you consider other aproches? Eg. closely linking one with another (kind of privilaged partnership) but leaving wikitravel.org adds-free and quite as-is? ads are not going to show-up tomorrow btw.... maj: I know we are going to have some close linking in the very near future... sort-of Sister sites... like our current Wikipedia linking maj: but this is just the first step, right? JanSlupski: yes And we're going to take it niiiiiiiice and easy so I have to go...I have a law course tomorrow at 8am... see you soon Rikouman: thanks for coming! It was great having you here you're welcome evan, thanks for the great job you've done JanSlupski: what wikitravel will "finally become" is pretty much what it is + better servers + links to personal stuff + low profile ads <-- Rikouman has quit ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'") Also MediaWiki improvements Not improvements that make it work badly we try to skip those But stuff that fits in the mainline of MediaWiki development for me it sounds great. just hope it does not end up of being static service, with eventual "paid" editors, and small contributor base JanSlupski: no way of course not! nooooo way not gonna happen lots of contributors everyone does there share that would break everything I would cry Creative Commons, Open Content (just like secrecy does) my baby would cry my baby cries when people keep secrets in short - I hope that commercial wrap will not scare potential contributors actually she screams really really loud in my ear and gives me tinitus JanSlupski: if it does, we'll do what it takes to reassure them that we're not the bad guys Creative Commons is one thing, and does it look like is another JanSlupski: I hope what the commercial stuff is wrapping will do the opposite and I hate to harp on it... but we're not actually breaking new ground with the commercial-wiki idea... wikia/wikicities and wikimedia have both gone in ahead of us... ok, I expressed my doubts, but hope I'm very wrong with that thinking Well thank you for sharing your doubts-- we need to be able to make everyone feel OK about this... ocho_ha, I can eat any time of the day :) but it's 15:50 here... close to Lima, Peru if anybody is still bothered by the compatibility between Free Content (or Free Software) and the Enterprise, then I suggest reading Eben Moglen or Lawrence Lessig guaka ;) you can think of short poll between top contributors, what they think about and I'd recommend Moglen in general.. the guy is amazing :) is there anyone we haven't heard from? we're hitting the 2 hour mark here... this still does not solve everything, because these are people who already know what/who wikitravel is and to not test newcomers, but still Moglen is fantastic for understanding IP law (sorry RMS) or law in general (Evan and I will be on as long as needed of course, we've just been loosing the folks on the far-side....) I have a dream of taking law classes from him ocho_ha: I am in Poland right now. (sorry - server says I cannot answer in priv) oh... a bit off-topic, but I just take the liberty of mentioning it, now that people are gathered... http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Cooperating_with_CouchSurfing I feel pretty comfortable at this point Evan/Maj great! like I said, we're here if you wake up in the middle of the night and have a question ('specially if you're +12 hours time diff) guaka: Thanks! I'll take a look I think I've made my little point thingy... I hope I helped to support the idea that Free Content and commerce are totally compatible and that secrecy is really really really very unforgivable noted Hey, so we 're going to send out a follow-up email and we'll keep this channel open as well ok - then I'll send it to ALL my friends! ;) I'm going to need to duck in-and-out to check on the wee wikitraveller... haw! so funny NOT ;-) but really, I'll say it again: let folks hear it from us... kiss Amita-June on the forehead for us on a realted note: if anyone would like / not mind talking to the press (prolly US), let us know love to and we'd love to have all the admins in on the top-contributor irc later this week will try to not spoil any surprises (being non-secrets held up for impact) tho I know no matter what time we pick it will be ass-o'clock for someone out there I don't remember "ass" being a time on MY clock? you need to buy a new watch this is a fine fine time for me to have a final glass of wine which I will then brush and floss away.... Beyond the Sea is playing in the original French and you must not have any young childrent Ohhh... dang. I just just spent my money on hockey gear. lol you sound like a Canadian, eh? Yet, I live in the south. Blame it on the playoffs, eh. that's right, we missed you on our Road Trip... next time, for sure Sure, sure. :) we were going to hit Tenn, but we had to jam up to NYC ... You did hit TN -> only Knoxville, though. nothing like 11 hours in the car with a 6 month old to make you hurry home ;-) that's right! we had a meal there... it's all such a blurr no, wait, it was Portobello fajitas... I always remember the food we stopped for beer in Nashville when we did the River Road about 2 years ago.. that was lovely Yup - I'm very pleased with nashville... I just moved last year. Plenty of beers around here, too. oddly enough I have a friend at WHO from Knoxville at least she was born there anyone I know? lordly, is there anyone I know left there? I mean besides y'all you might remember her, Eva, pretty strawberry blond from the Library she was about 22 when you left yup... I recall her Oliver, Nicolas, Biswa, and Mark Staples are still around that's a short list... Eva babysits for us sometimes nice... her dad is from Knoxville, but she grew up in France and India of course... because now she's a UN person... Oliver is quitting in July everyone seems to be Welsh & Moroccan by way of Hawaii or something.... speaking of which, is Zarina still around? it's pretty wierd to know a french girl with an East Tennessee accent or I guess it was Carolyn who was Egyptian and Welsh Zarina is there Carolyn is very very pregnant as is Jill no Jill is barely preg, just starting .... ok, this conversation has totally sidetrack... by applogises to anyone who isn't interested in World Health Organization tech department gossip! sorry oh, they're loving it lol... we should chat off-this-line ;-) Its only the people that are logging left. :) Hello Jpatokal! Sleeping well? I supose I could double click before announcing Jillian's baby to the travel community Well, I should return to work. Thanks for your time Maj and Evan! Thank you! Talk to you again soon! hmm... Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /var/www/wikitravel/mw/extensions/BannedContent.php on line 48 <-- ilkirk (n=ilkirk@c-69-180-244-172.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) has left #wikitravel-admin thanks guaka... think *faster servers soon* ;-) I'm just wondering what banned content :) I hope there won't be any mention of wikitravel on wikitruth.info very soon ;) banned content? like spam? i think that's the anti-spam extension yup... I think deleting article history, which is what wikitruth alleges has happened at Wikpedia fall directly under my request for *no* secrecy it's a shared blacklist for wikimedia uh, no one's going to be messing with content / history http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Spam_filter for your viewing / non-secracy pleasure: http://wikitravel.org/bannedcontent.txt interesting... think I need this on my own wiki as well.. lol... "for words like "porn", "pharmacy", etc., which often end up being part of foreign words or important attractions we need to link to." or the in/famous Pharmacy Museum in New Orleans We had a chuckle when we walked by it about 3 weeks ago By the way, the wikitruth is an amusing read... I hope no one jumps ahead and starts accusing Evan and me of using 'mind rays' on the rest of you... haha... would be the best thing that could happen however, it's a pity that it's a mix of serious allegations and plain bullshit... and that some people are depicted in quite a nasty way.. don't think they should've played it personally... actually we should probably consider slandering some hanger-on of the kennedys ;) ok, so everybody missed the Wikimedia in joke... ok... I get it I'll go to bed now okay -- talk to you later! keep me posted on WHO:TNG! bye all bye! anyone still here? I'm going to keep an eye on the channel, but I'm also going to check on wikitravel and getting some dinner going to feed the Wikifamily...