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[edit] Purpose of this page

I was moving some questions out of the travellers' pub, and a lot of them were along the lines of, "Where do I put information X?" Some had been covered in the article templates, some hadn't. I realized that people more often are going to know some bit of info, and wonder where to put it, than have an empty article and wonder what should go in it. So I started this page.

The title is purposefully bad, because I couldn't think of a better one. Suggestions more than welcome (or just plunge forward and move the article). --Evan 15:21, 9 Feb 2004 (EST)

[edit] Time Zones

Moved from Wikitravel:travellers' pub by Evan

We should add a location's timezone into the "Quick Facts" table; also if someone feels so inclined a timezone world map might be a good addition (if none exists already). --Nils 12:16 Jan 29th, 2004

It isn't a map, but there is a time zones page. -phma 07:04, 29 Jan 2004 (EST)

[edit] Embassy and consulate

Moved from Wikitravel:travellers' pub by Evan

Hi. sorry for my poor English, but I wanted to know if you already debated on the interest of listing embassies or consulates that can be found in towns like Paris or Strasbourg for example. I think it would be an interressant information for travellers that have problems with justice or so. [Was it clear ? ] --Pontauxchats 04:53, 30 Jan 2004 (EST)

I wonder if this would go under, say, Cope. --Evan 15:27, 1 Feb 2004 (EST)

[edit] Internet Cafes and Wireless Access?

Do we put this under the "contact" information? Or perhaps under "do"? --Anca

Yep, that's "Contact". I'm glad this page is becoming useful! --Evan 22:56, 23 Feb 2004 (EST)

[edit] Guides?

Very useful page! What about:

• entertainment guides (i.e. what you find in newspapers, street papers)
• gig guides
• visitor information centers

Nurg 17:36, 6 Mar 2004 (EST)

The first two are terrible examples, in that we don't have a good place to put them. I think they should go in the "Understand" section. As for visitor info centers, that'd be Understand, too.

It may be good to break the first ones out. Maybe a "Read" section of the guides? --Evan 18:12, 10 Mar 2004 (EST)

[edit] Wine samples and wineries

Wine samples: Drink or Do? I'd suggest drink. Opinions? -- Nils 05:55, 27 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Drink is really for nightlife, I think. I'd put wine tasting tours under Do, and the wineries themselves under Buy. Spiv 10:59, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

What about Wineries? In Santorini we have them mentioned in See, Buy and Drink. And I don't really like an idea to have introduction and background in one part of article, and the list of wineries in another. --DenisYurkin 05:33, 10 November 2006 (EST)

So what is recommended to do in the Santorini case? --DenisYurkin 16:40, 20 November 2006 (EST)

[edit] Theatres and Performance Acts

This may be a bit late to fix but I notice that Theatres and Stadiums are suggested to go under the Do section.

What is the reason for that?

My initial reaction is that Live Perfomance Acts should go under the See section since these activities generally involve observing the performance and audience participation is generally limited to applause. Are you suggesting that applause implies you are Doing the show rather than Seeing it? -- Huttite 02:50, 24 Jan 2005 (EST)

[edit] Tour companies and Tour parties

Some companies organise tours of a country, arranging things like hotels, transport, itineries, food and even entertainment. They also provide guides/chaperones and/or translators to assist the traveler. Sometimes they have a theme; like a chef taking a tour party to experience the authentic cusine; famous sports people taking a party to a series of sports events. I think these could best go in the Get around section, but does anyone have a better idea? -- Huttite 03:36, 23 Jul 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Recommended / further reading / destination travel books and publications

OK, so I'm not sure whether this has been suggested / discussed previously, BUT, what about adding an additional section to destination articles (towards the end, near External links) in which contributors could list books and publications relevant to understanding / appreciating a destination, with the intention of making a traveller's experience of a city all the richer? Note: not travel guides, but rather quality titles that explore the history, culture and atmosphere of a country or city, or are representative of its literary heritage (Naguib Mahfouz in Cairo, for example....) This could even be extended to music typical of a destination.... What do others think? Pjamescowie 14:31, 6 Nov 2004 (EST)

I like the idea, but I might be the wrong person to ask, as I can't even seem to muster the abhorance for "other guides" which my collegues here mostly seem to share. As for my own writing I've sometimes used references to the CD collection behind a given bar to try to impart something to the reader about the atmosphere there. It feels very right to me to give travellers a musical context for the places we tell them about. As my art-history professor liked to say, history, art-history, and anthropology all provide contexts for understanding the other. So I think by all means yes. -- Mark 14:45, 6 Nov 2004 (EST)

I love the idea. What about Read? Or a sub-section of Understand? --Evan 23:33, 6 Nov 2004 (EST)

Glad you both like the idea.... Read would be good, but wouldn't allow for the musical side of things.... Maybe we could have Listen as well? (though this might be getting slightly too sectionalised...!) A sub-section(s) of Understand could work, for sure, though I had visualised a section at the end of an article, alonsgide the External links.... This could be just my preconception, however, and is probably influenced by Wikipedia practice.... We can afford to be different! Any more thoughts? Pjamescowie 03:28, 7 Nov 2004 (EST)

I'd be inclined to not make it a entire section up there with Understand, Sleep, Do, etc. Somehow, those just seem more fundamental to what I want to use wikitravel for than finding out about cultural research I could do. (It's useful yes, but not as useful as finding somewhere to sleep...)

My suggestion is to either make it a subsection of Understand or possibly rename External links to Other resources (or similar), and have External links, Read, Listen as part of that. -- Hypatia 08:06, 7 Nov 2004 (EST)

Yeah, I agree with Hypatia, surely the best thing is to to generalise "External Links". -- Lionfish 0:07 7 Mar 2005 (GMT)

[edit] Recommended reading/viewing - round 2

So this was discussed a few years back, up above... but what do people (now) think about where to stick recommended reading / movies?

We've got Special:Booksources (and a small conversation about books at Talk:Books, and I've proposed Special:Moviesources in the pub. Where exactly should these be listed in the articles?

I was assuming that we should have "Read" (or "Recommended reading") as a subsection of Understand... does anyone have a better idea? If we do make Moviesources then perhaps we'd need a more generic term for the subheading, unless we also add "Recommended viewing" as yet another subheader.

Music was also mentioned in the old conversation up above, but for some reason I'm more skeptical about that... – cacahuate ^talk 01:45, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

I don't think this needs its own subsection. That implies it's something each article should have, and could encourage people to add items for the sake of having them, rather than because seeing Ishtar really helped them grok Morocco. Just let people mention educational books or films in Understand. - Todd VerBeek 09:19, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Keep in mind that Extra is going to be a better place for people to put together long lists of resources like books, movies and websites (the web directory part is rolling out this week...). Probably better to keep things high level in the guides and then link to more detailed lists on extra. Maj 14:35, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Cool, that works for me. I'm all for keeping it really simple in the guides... I think 3 books/3 movies is more than adequate, if necessary at all. I don't think at all that we should aim to have them in articles though, only when it's really obvious. Some examples I keep coming back to are Dark Star Safari for East Africa and The Sheltering Sky for Morocco, and some of William Dalrymple's books for India (and overlanders to India). One's that are super wellknown and somewhat iconic for travelers to those areas. – cacahuate ^talk 20:47, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] BUMP recommended media

What was the outcome of the above discussion? A year ago, I added the following comment nearby, but since then there's no clarity in our policies on this subject (or is it?). I mean, just having "book suggestion - a 'Read' sub-section of the 'Understand' section" in this article doesn't answer:

• what kind of books is appropriate or not?
• what about movies and music?
• do we encourage having references like this in a Star article, or it doesn't matter?

My latest example: is this book removal valid here? --DenisYurkin 02:52, 8 January 2008 (EST)

First, I'd like to point out that the above discussion was continued below (we really shouldn't break up discussions like that).

For the vast majority of city destinations, having a dedicated subsection in "Understand" does not make sense IMHO (as was agreed in the below discussion); important literature can simply be mentioned in the text of "Understand." Occasionally I do think a subsection is warranted, and a good example is found in the Chicago#Literature and Chicago#Movies sections.

What kinds of books/movies are fair game? I'd say only those that are to a good extent about the city (rather than books written or movies filmed simply in the city). I think we should ruthlessly trim excessively long lists, though (imagine a comprehensive "movies" list for NYC).

Music suggestions should be highly restricted to only the most iconic examples of local music. Otherwise, treatment of music should be limited to a description of the styles of music associated with the destination (e.g., Gogo is a style of music indigenous to DC, notable for it's blend of funk-inspired rhythms with rap vocals and elements of hip hop. It finds its home in the clubs of DC's black neighborhoods in the southeast of the city). In this example, mentioning James Brown would be fair game, but we should IMHO stamp out attempts to add everyone's favorite local band to Wikitravel guides.

I don't think we should mention this in our star criteria, simply because small destinations might not have any literature/film/music worth mentioning, while this type of information is valuable for larger and more famous (and more culturally vibrant?) destinations.

I would support the Moscow edit you cited simply because the reference was given without even trying to write about Moscow history here. References should always supplement, rather than replace work on the travel guides—I think it's fair to remove such references when the sections they are designed to supplement have not been written. --Peter ^Talk 03:46, 8 January 2008 (EST)

A 'Read' section makes sense more for smaller off the beaten track destinations than for large places like Moscow or New York. It's not as if it is hard to find books about the history of these sorts of places - just walk into any bookstore and you'll see many examples - and its not for us to pick and choose which ones to feature. However, for off the beaten path destinations (like Myanmar) a good read section is important because books are hard to find and because people don't know a whole lot about the place to start with. A good book on history, quintessential examples of literature that feature the destination (not necessarily in-grown which may not be in English anyway), and travel writing are all important in a good guide. In this I disagree with the unnamed person above who says that small destinations might not have literature worth mentioning. If a place is worth visiting, someone would definitely have written about it and not including that book would make it unworthy of star status. For example, how can an English language guidebook write about Katha and not mention Burmese Days? Trying to find iconic books about Moscow or New York is far less important than finding and listing iconic books about the lesser known destinations. The same applies to film. But, music, as a non-narrative form of art, is probably best avoided unless it is peculiar to the region (Baul music, for example).--Wandering 11:24, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Oh. And I think the bump of that particular history was justified. How do we know that it is any good, or even an accepted history of Moscow? --Wandering 11:26, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Peter, thanks for reference to the previous discussion, I've just moved it under the original section heading just above our this discussion. --DenisYurkin 14:47, 8 January 2008 (EST)

My point above was that smaller, lesser known destinations should not have a separate section for these categories, because they would have a much smaller list of relevant literature/film and that could therefore be expressed succinctly within the general understand section. And I assure you that there are destinations with no literature available—Silver Spring is certainly a valid travel destination, but there's nothing I'd recommend someone read about it beyond a travel guide itself (or perhaps a wikipedia article, which we already link).

A destination like New York needs the subsection because literature (fiction) about the city is an entire topic in and of itself. Any guide to NY worth its salt includes a list of the most iconic works about the city, and I think we should be no more shy about picking recommendations in this category than we are about picking recommendations for restaurants/bars/hotels (we are a travel guide, after all). While they may be relatively easy to find, I wouldn't know what to read beyond some of the Harlem Renaissance lit.

All got me thinking — we should be really careful about recommending non-fiction (history books, etc.). It's more important IMHO to include the culturally relevant materials — things that help make the destination a destination. --Peter ^Talk 16:51, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Are we ready yet to organize the above thinking as a policy which everyone agrees with and can refer to in the future? --DenisYurkin 10:33, 9 January 2008 (EST)

[edit] Highway routes

Hi there! I'm a visitor from 'Pedia. Of course we have our usual arguments over what should and should not be included there. Now it happens that one of the areas of discussion, is articles about roads and turnpikes and the like. For instance, see [1] - WP has extensive documentation on the USA and Australian road networks, among others. According to some, this isn't particularly encyclopedic. According to others, it is verifiable and useful, thus should be listed somewhere.

I realize that this might be highly impractical and unfeasible, but... wouldn't that information be more at home in WikiTravel? The different licenses may be an issue, but this concerns a relatively large amount of articles written by a relatively low amount of users. Plus there's the fact that some of this material consists of lists of stubs, which I reckon would stand a greater chance of being expanded when included here rather than on 'pedia.

Just a thought for discussion. Wikipedia:User:Radiant, 23 Feb 2005

Radiant: we have a lot of highway info already in Wikitravel (like Gunbarrel Highway and Route 66). We treat highways like itineraries, usually. I think we might have different ways of thinking about highways, though: an encyclopedic view of a highway (date of construction, legal act that enabled its creation, name of contractor who laid the blacktop, notorious crimes that occurred on the road) might be different from the travel-guide view (best cities or campgrounds to stay in along the way, roadside attractions, places to stop to eat, etc.). --Evan 17:42, 23 Feb 2005 (EST)

Also, we probably wouldn't want to list all possible highways. Just the ones worth being an itenerary.

And as a side note, I love the Wikipedia encylopedic approach to highways. I can't beleive people complain about this, but every freaking album has an article, places and characters from pop fiction frequently get articles, and minor sports figures get articles. (I've being hitting the 'random page' button on wikipedia a lot lately. There's a lot of pollution in the encylopedia, and it's not caused by a few hundred well-organized road articles). -- Colin 18:17, 23 Feb 2005 (EST)

[edit] Travel companies

Would it be alright if I made a Greyhound, Amtrak, etc... article. I think anyone not knowing what Greyhound or Amtrak is would like an article about these companies so they can understand better. Sometimes I link to WikiPedia, but WikiPedia is more along the lines of straight history i.e. Established date, board members, CEO. I think there should be something like: routes, stations, programs, specials, type of trains.

-Andrew

So far, we've made a page each for kinds of industries, like Discount airlines in Europe. Maybe Bus travel in North America? --Evan 00:29, 6 Apr 2005 (EDT)

How about we review airlines as we do restaurant and hotels: Food, Service, Drinks, Entertainment, Internet, Delays, etc.

We could make a "in the air" destination and have all airlines on that destination. Budget, medium, splurge would be economy, medium, and business class. Price is too complex, but I would like to know what airlines serve food on shorter (eg. European) flights, have individual TV's, serve snacks and chocolate, serve alcohol, icecream, etc -- elgaard 10:43, 7 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Mm-mm. I'll have to agree with Evan on this one for a change, as this is a bit of a slippery slope -- there are a lot of travel companies out there and countless websites/fora devoted solely to, say, air travel; I frequent one myself. One page is clearly unworkable, and do we really want thousands? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it'd be a pretty big expansion of Wikitravel's mandate. Jpatokal 11:06, 7 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Flyertalk seem to be more a forum discussing a lot of things: Restaurants, travel stories, bonus miles etc. Wikipedia can fit airlines on one page: [2]. We would need a few lines for each airline, but would not need to cover them all. Just like we do not cover every restaurant in Paris. I Think buses and trains should be covered in "get around" on country pages, although we could have a page with international trains. But it is not very meaningfull to cover airlines in country articles, Eg. I have traveled Denmark-Canada on SAS, Lufthansa, Air Canada, British Airways, LOT, Delta, and Czeck Air. Air France, Air Italia, and more is also an option. If we want to say that AirFoo serve awful food so you should bring a sandwich, it would a waste to put it in every "Get In" section on destinations that AirFoo is operating. -- elgaard 19:05, 7 Apr 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Airlines and flights

Is there any decision yet on WHERE to describe airlines and their most known lines? --DenisYurkin 11:03, 29 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I'd like to publish the following info on a couple of airlines and routes -- where can I stick it?

• type of plane for specific flight of specific airline
• comparison of planes condition within single airline for different destinations
• whether or not meals are served at specific flights of specific airline
• quality of on-board meals and service for different flights for specific airline
• number of seats in a row for specific plane type
• recommendations on which places to choose for specific plane type

Suggestions?

--DenisYurkin 13:45, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)

This has been discussed before and goes a little beyond Wikitravel's current scope. There are currently some discussions on hooking up with a well-known air travel specialist site who are also setting up a wiki, so please hold off for now. Jpatokal 22:36, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)

[edit] ferries going through several islands?

I'd like to share experience with a ferry going from Athens\Pireaus to Santorini. The issue is that the ferry goes ultimately to Paros island, and people will unlikely find it there when they read looking for ways to Santorini (and vice versa; same applies to 10 more islands on the way). What is the best place? --DenisYurkin 15:15, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)

All of them. Every single island the ferry goes to should have a short note about it. Jpatokal 22:40, 18 Oct 2005 (EDT)

It doesn't look smart to duplicate detailed info on the same ship on page of every island. Of course I will link from all islands to the place it is detailed -- but what's that place? I will hardly print out page for Paros if I plan to go to Santorini -- but maybe will print Pireaus, and will think about printing Ships operating from Pireaus to Paros, if Santorini article suggest me to. Is it OK to create such a separate article? --DenisYurkin 05:45, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)

I'm lost. What exactly is wrong with mentioning under the "By ship" heading of "Get in" on each article that a ferry starts in X (Pireaus?) place and goes to Y (Paros?) place, stopping in THIS (Santorini) place? Maybe even add a statement after that one saying that it had stopped at B place before THIS place and goes to C place afterwards.

I understand you might feel strange about repeating the initial statement each time, but if someone were interested in a specific island, its better to have the information right there. I've heard of instances where people more-or-less blindly printed an article, not realizing there was a link to another article and as such, did not have all of the information. -- Ilkirk 09:19, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)

What level of detailed information are we talking about? I think a note in the "By boat" section of "Get in" saying that ferry company X gets you from Pireaus to island Y every N days, look for the Paros ferry, etc. Although I think it'd be a mistake to go into intimate detail of the boat ("bathrooms are here and here, best place to sleep is on the port aft deck, the food is OK if you eat the spanakopita but not the meat etc. etc. etc."), but a one- or two-sentence gloss is probably reasonable ("A clean, modern boat with lots of space that makes most of its stops on schedule"). --Evan 10:58, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)

I've done it this way: common info placed in Cyclades (which seems to contain all the islands involved), while some specifics added in Santorini, with a link to Cyclades for a full story. Does it look reasonable? Any corrections suggested? --DenisYurkin 14:40, 19 Oct 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Events

Swept in from the Wikitravel:Travellers' pub:

I was working on an entry that involved annual events for a particular city. I wasn't sure if they should go under See or Do since events often fall under both.

I would like to propose adding Event section to the templates, especially for cities.

Comments? Epolk 17:22, 18 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Where you can stick it decrees that festivals go under Do. I'm not too sure why, but it's the de facto standard already... I would not be averse to adding a "Events" subsection under Do though, and you can do this on an ad hoc basis already. Jpatokal 09:33, 5 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I recently added a bunch of events to the Basel page (subheading under Do), and I was thinking that it would be nice if there were some guidelines on how to list events, in terms of formatting. Dates, locations, a descriptive blurb, etc. --kenliu

[edit] See vs Other destinations

• On the regional template, we have both 'see' and 'other destinations' sections. What is the difference regarding entries? For example, other destinations implies somewhere outside the listed cities, but if there is a major site of interest in that region that it is not in a city nor big enough to require its own page, should it be placed under 'see' or 'other destinations'? The article on Tibet offers an example this problem. I'd appreciate some input from others. Thanks. WindHorse 20 Jan 06

No need for a reply. I've seen how it is done on another page: Listings under 'Other destinations' should actually be large enough for their own pages.

[edit] Non-tourist churches

This article says that churches should go in the See section -- what about for churches that are not tourist sites, but places the traveler might want to worship...someone put effort into listed places of worship for Rochester_(New_York)...I assume this is of some interest to the observant (since this sort of thing is always in the hotel information books). If this were a big city, I might think Cope...suggestions? Move, or just delete? Jonboy 16:04, 6 March 2006 (EST)

[edit] Hitchhiking

Swept in from the Pub:

I think we should add a category for city exits and places were you can get out of a city easily under "get out" for citys (at least large citys). Also we should add hitchhiking to the "get around" in contry templates. Any other opinions on that?

I've been adding "By thumb" sections under "Get around" for countries and "Get in" for some cities. Jpatokal 02:37, 24 Oct 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Selected trains

Swept in from the Pub:

So there's a new user (User:172.183.51.234) adding a bunch of scheduling info for trains in Europe (see Western Europe and talk page). I know there's been some talk in the past about how much detail in boat, plane, train schedules is useful to readers (and reasonable to maintain), but it's come up again. I think it has some place in actual city articles (ie "trains run every 2 hours" "last train leaves a midnight") but not so much on region or country pages and not so much the actual schedule in scheduling format. A general idea is going to be more accurate more often (think about sundays, holidays, etc etc) and travellers should always double check with the transportation company-- heck, I do even when I have schedules published by the company! Anyway, other opinions? Suggestions on what to do with the extensive contributions by User:172.183.51.234 ? Majnoona 08:58, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)

• Agree this is an eye-sore and not very helpful. I'd vote delete.

• The contributions should be deleted, in my opinion. While they may have some use now, unless there is sufficient effort they will fall quickly out of data and then be worse than useless. I pointer to primary sources where one can obtain up-to-date schedules and routes would be more useful. -- Colin 13:49, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)

• I only partly removed the selected trains sections. Does anyone think perhaps that it is useful for smaller towns which only have one or two trains that pass through? I'd like some input on that before I delete the sections from smaller cities. -- Colin 15:42, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)

• I moved a lot of these contributions to the talk pages - did they get moved back onto the main article? I just logged in and haven't dug throught the recent changes. Obviously I don't believe they need to last in their current form for exactly the reasons you've pointed out Maj, but it would be nice if someone could translate them into paragraphs. I, for one, had a bit of time reading them to begin with - those are all city names, right? -- Ilkirk 23:42, 5 Nov 2005 (EST)

[edit] Where do these go?

1. Bus tour 2. Hiking tour 3. Boat tour 4. Rafting tour 5. If a tour provides a pickup from an airport, does it go into "get in"?

OK, I'll bite: I think tours that are mostly adventure sports should go in "do", and those that are mostly transportational should go in "get around". And, yes, I think that if a tour gives you rides to/from the airport, it should be noted in "get in".

What do I win? B-) --Evan 20:58, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

A Grand Canyon. -- Colin 21:05, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Smoking

It's of interest both to many smokers and many non-smokers to know about both local and regional smoking laws and customs. Where can I smoke? Where can I go to get away from smoke? I'm thinking of adding relevant info to Australia and to its states, which have varying smoking laws (some are starting to ban smoking in licenced venues and restaurants altogether). Where can I stick it? Hypatia 01:54, 13 June 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Drink/Local Beer

Swept in from the Pub:

I'm a self-admitted beer nerd (and seeking help through ethanol therapy, thank you!) and like to try out local offerings. I recently wrote most of what's currently in San Marcos and added a "local beer" section under drink. I should probably get around to this for Houston and the like. Does anyone see a problem for me adding this to other pages (or have ideas for a better way to work the information in)? I'm not a wine person, though I know that Texas and California have some pretty decent local wines that the traveller might want to know about too, so I guess there could be a more general name for this section, but I can't think of a good one. Jordanmills 21:25, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

This seems to me like perfectly appropriate information to include under "Drink". I've including info about local beers and wines in this section on a few pages. One simple way to do that would be to include a bar-type listing for the brewery's pub or the vineyard's tasting room, if they have one. - Todd VerBeek 21:41, 23 April 2006 (EDT)

[edit] See vs Do

Swept in from the Pub:

Hey folks, is there any guideline to help figure out what is "See" and what is "Do"? Would a museum count as see or do? 70.51.81.178 20:40, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Where you can stick it should help. SHC 20:47, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Rule of thumb: If the main activity there consists of sitting in a vehicle/walking around and looking at things, it's a "See". (This includes all but the most fun museums.) If it includes more involvement than that and/or getting your heart rate up, it's a "Do". - Todd VerBeek 21:00, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

Thanks! Adina 22:18, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

The explanatory paragraphs of the article templates could be helpful too. Ricardo (Rmx) 22:51, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

[edit] City Centres(sic) and Districts

Swept in from the Pub:

I am interested in people's opinions on cities where the districts are really inner suburbs, with most of the sights concentrated in the centre and it doesn't seems productive to go all the way in creating districts. In this case, an anonymous user created Headingley and Chapel Allerton, which are part of Leeds. I moved these to discrict pages, but I don't feel we should move all the city centre info to a Leeds/City Centre page, as it seems happy enough where it is. Is this acceptable?, and could it be used in a few more cases where the main article could become the de-facto city centre article. -- DanielC 16:50, 4 May 2006 (EDT)

Hi Daniel, I think I responed to this in some of the Leeds 'burbs, but for the record: we only really want districts for huge cities such as Mexico City and New York (city). The other options are "neighborhoods" or stand-alone destinations for actual suburbs. I don't know Leeds well enough to say, but I'm pretty sure it's not Huge, and that folks think of Headingley et al as 'seperate' (ie the Get in sections all say "take a bus from Leeds" whereas I would not say "Take a bus from New York to get to Queens"). Hope this helps! Majnoona 10:47, 5 May 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Sites of interest as opposed to the city/region/etc. focus Wikitravel has so far

Swept in from the Pub:

A lot of the most interesting places to visit in China — for the "adventure tourist" at any rate — are, for historical reasons obvious to anybody who knows China's history, in way-the-Hell-out-of-the-way places nowhere near a city or town. Examples would include Longhu Mountain, home of one of the most important Taoist temples in China and White Deer Academy, the world's oldest university. (Other standalones which could at least plausibly be associated with nearby cities would include Shaolin Temple, Donglin Temple, Tiefo Temple, etc. but I think they'd still be better served as separate destinations rather than as simple entries in a city page.) I'm really not sure how I'd go about adding information on these kinds of places given the editorial policies in place and the templates provided. And yet I really want to actually document these out-of-the-way places which I've grown to love in my stay in China. Could anybody with some suggestions on how to do this drop a line on my user talk page? --Michael 06:49, 17 May 2006 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Plunge forward and write them up as small cities, which is the 'default' template for oddballs (cf. Panmunjeom, North Pole). Alternatively, if they're national parks (as eg. Longhushan seems to be), then the park template is also a good option. Jpatokal 02:15, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Casinos

I've been sticking Casinos under "Drink," but is that where they should go or is there a better section for casinos? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:09, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

I've been using "Do" even though gambling is not exactly active. OldPine 13:12, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

I was debating if Drink or Do would be better because for the most part Casinos seem to be more nightlife activities, which would indicate "Drink", but it's also completely feasible that they should be under "Do." I'll wait for other comments before adding casinos to the page. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:17, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

I see your point, but my feel is that the preponderance of folks go to gamble with a small percentage going for nightlife. I do list the nightclubs under drink and the restaurants under eat. Agree on hearing more views. Always a good thing. OldPine 13:20, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

I'd cast my vote for "Do" — gambling most definitely is something you do by yourself, as opposed to just sitting around watching. Jpatokal 19:08, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

[edit] National holidays under Do or Understand?

The current guideline says that "holiday (national)" belongs in "the Do section of the Country page", but nearly every country article (or at least those I've touched!) puts them under a "Holidays" subsection in "Understand" instead. To me this makes perfect sense, because then it's next to "Climate" and they're both important things to consider when planning a trip. Should the guideline be changed? Jpatokal 18:22, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Absolutely. --Ricardo (Rmx) 19:31, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Yes. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 19:42, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

[edit] TMI on Airplane Routes

Swept in from the Pub:

User:172.158.93.238 has added large tables of airline connections to a bunch of articles (for example Abbotsford). I think they are too much detail, and should be deleted. But I'd like a second opinion first -- Colin 16:18, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Seconded. It appears to be User:172.177.249.236 popping up again. Evan and I tried to talk to him/her about it to no avail. Let the reverts begin. -- Jonboy 18:21, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

Oh good, it's already been discussed. -- Colin 18:25, 28 June 2006 (EDT)

I've been reverting this for a couple days and started a discussion for him to see on the article he repeatedly added the tables to - Alesund. - Sapphire

The IP address for this user changes spontaneously so we have to vigilant. Today (June 29) his IP is - 172.182.3.234. (This has since changed multiple times.) -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 04:47, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

TMI? WTF is that? C'mon, it's not even in the jargon. OldPine 06:57, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

TMI = Too much information. Have you seen these tables? He even lists what kind of aircraft someone flies on if they go with a specific airline. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 07:09, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

Ah, I see. If I were NewPine I might have got that. No, I haven't peeked. I haven't moved into cop phase yet, but I truly appreciate how the admins are on top of things like that. OldPine 10:06, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

I agree that the info here is excessive; I wonder if there's a way we can make space for this information. I think there is a case for saying that it's another way of seeing travel, and maybe we could make a new article category for precise bus, train, and air schedules. but I could also buy the idea that they're pretty hard to keep up to date. --Evan 09:53, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

Some of this is useful (e.g. savvy travelers like to avoid certain aircraft for safety/comfort reasons), but with the possible exception of a certain Israeli bus line, most carriers do a pretty good job of keeping this information accessible and up to date on their own sites/publications. Let the primary sources handle that. - Todd VerBeek 10:13, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

I refuse to fly on Boeing jets and do research the aircraft I will be flying on, but for Wikitravel I just don't think the information is relevant, because so many airlines are changing their routes selling off older jets for newer ones that are cheaper to maintain and use less fuel to prevent bankruptcy. I like listing the airport that serves a city then provide information about the airlines have big operations at the airport. I.e. If someone wants to use the Philadelphia airport I'd mention that U.S. Air has its hub there, but I wouldn't bother listing that U.S. Air or KLM have a single gate that they use at the CVG airport in Cincinnati. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 12:34, 29 June 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Car rental company listings

Swept in from the pub — Hypatia 19:08, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

I noticed today that 68.156.107.141 added 7 car rental agencies to at least Dallas, Ft. Worth, Seattle, Phoenix, Denver and Atlanta, giving phone and URL for only one of them. As I recall, the list was given twice on each page, once under Get in and also maybe under get around. Probably useful info for the traveller (in one iteration), but I wonder if we really want this info in every city or airport city. Would it be better (or is it already covered) in a travel topic article or in some other way? If not, I'm inclined to want to get the other toll free numbers and URLs and paste the info over the listing given. OldPine 20:29, 18 August 2006 (EDT)

All seven of those are nationwide companies and are probably availble in all the major American airports. Maybe it would be better to just put them on the United States page. Texugo 220.2.118.238 05:47, 19 August 2006 (EDT)

To complicate it, the company for which info was given is not national. They operate in five states in the southern US and Washington (state). OldPine 08:59, 19 August 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Trimming, Pastry, Ice Cream

Swept in from the pub — Hypatia 01:10, 13 October 2006 (EDT)

Is it possible to trim this discussion page? (obsolete topics, resolved problems etc).

During long travel, it's better to buy bread, cakes from local pastry (delays, stranded etc). There are excellent ice cream shops in certain cities. The pastry and ice cream shops are not restaurant nor bars. Is it possible to add a new category "Pastry & Ice Cream" under "Eat", beside "budget, mid-range, splurge"?

I don't think it makes sense to add an entire heading to every guide we have. I've usually put dedicated snack shops under "Eat#Budget", and places that offer coffee etc under "Drink". Jpatokal 12:53, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

[edit] finding this article

It was really hard for me to find this article. I added a link from Wikitravel:Project>Tools, but I feel that's not enough. Can we further improve its chances of being found by a newcomer? --DenisYurkin 06:03, 10 November 2006 (EST)

Possibly add a link to the Welcome message? -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:11, 7 December 2006 (EST)

A quick count gave me 14 links in the current Welcome message, I think a better spot would be on the Wikitravel:Help and/or Wikitravel:Welcome, newcomers pages. We can't have everything in the welcome message! Maj 23:34, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Also, it is already linked to from the Wikitravel:Manual_of_style main page... Maj 23:35, 7 December 2006 (EST)

[edit] Banks and ATMs

I've seen people adding listings for banks and ATMs in the "Buy" section and got to thinking where does this information belong? Personally, I feel "Cope" is a better section since you cope with monetary issues rather than "buy" it. Thoughts? -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:09, 7 December 2006 (EST)

Somewhat related discussion: Wikitravel talk:Country article template#Money section. --DenisYurkin 06:11, 8 December 2006 (EST)

[edit] Annual events

Which section should recurring events and public holidays in a destination go? I think travellers might be interested in knowing about annual events, such as the Cannes Film Festival or Mardi Gras, if they want to visit the destination during that time (or alternatively stay away to avoid crowds). Should there be a separate section for this ("Events"), or could this be part of another section (a more general "When to go" perhaps, which could also include information about the climate and such)? --Jopo 05:12, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Where you can stick it says that festivals go under "Do". Nationwide holidays are usually placed under "Understand#Holidays" in the country guide. Jpatokal 18:19, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

[edit] tap water

"Tap water is non/drinkable" -- where is it better to stick it: Stay Healthy or Drink:Water? --DenisYurkin 02:01, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

Stay healthy is my opinion. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 02:10, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Barbers/Salons/Hairdressers & Mechanics/Car Repair

Anyone opposed to mentioning that barbers & mechanics should go in the cope section of an article? -- Fastestdogever 11:18, 7 April 2007 (EDT)

Cope sounds right to me. Maj 21:06, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Extra

Any one have any trouble with a note somewhere at the top pointing people to Extra as a place to stick their personal travel stories, questions, and photos? Maj 21:06, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Embassies Part II

So I've been adding a listings for embassies and consulates on de: and it's fairly black-and-white on de:, meaning that essentially only people fluent enough to read German will be using the guide, and that will largely be German, Austrians, and Swiss.

However, it's recently been argued that non-native English speakers use en: for information and for that reason we should accommodate them where ever, including with regards to disambiguation pages, but do we accommodate them by listing every single embassy/consulate for a given place?

Also, I'm very much perplexed by the current direction that states the embassies should be listed under the "Cope" section of cities. Now, I can understand why consulates should be listed in city guides, rather than country guides, but I think embassies should also be listed in country guides since they are very important to travelers. Let's say a Brit is going to Louisville and gets into a bit of trouble. Now, since the UK doesn't have a consulate in Louisville (or so I assumed) we wouldn't have any information for that traveler and he might (sensibly) refer to the U.S. guide for contact info for his embassy.

Thoughts? -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 08:04, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

Also, which embassies do we list? Off the top of my head I'd say the countries with large English speaking communities; Canada, UK, Ireland, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, the U.S. Of course I've left out quite a few countries, but I don't want to do too much plunging forward until there's a consensus. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 14:37, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

I would vote for also allowing whatever country which language doesn't have its own version of wikitravel. --DenisYurkin 16:21, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

I think we should list all embassies... they aren't just there to help the citizens of that particular nationality, but also for visas and inquiries for people wishing to visit those countries, and who are we to guess at which embassies are relevant and which aren't? As for where to stick them, obviously they need to be in the city pages where they are located... but I do see the value as Sapphire points out of having them on the country page as well... for instance, in Pakistan almost all of the embassies are in Islamabad... but there's an Afghan consulate in Peshawar, which is a much better option than getting the visa in Islamabad... and unless you already know that, the country page would be the likely place you'd check to find out where in Pak you can get an Afghan visa. So I think maybe this is a rare case where something needs to be in more than one place on WT. – cacahuate ^talk 23:53, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

"All embassies" is a frightfully long list, and including consulates would make it even longer. - Todd VerBeek 09:39, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Not necessarily... maybe in a huge capital city there will be a longer list, but in a city where there's a lot of embassies that's because they're warranted there. If a country is going through the effort to maintain an embassy or consulate, to me that shows a demand for it, and I don't see why we should overlook that or leave some out just for the sake of keeping our list tiny. Even if we've got 15 or 20 listed in a city (and we do in a few articles) it doesn't really look out of control... we rarely need descriptions or anything, just the name and contact details, and it usually looks pretty orderly and compact, I think. – cacahuate ^talk 15:05, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Also, those "huge capital cities" should be broken down into districts anyway, which should spread out the embassies into smaller lists. I think that embassy lists are very important to independent overland travellers in Africa and Asia in particular, because of the reasons that Cacahuate listed. --Peter ^Talk 04:03, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Eek! Embassies should not be broken up into districts, because unlike restaurants and sights you don't have a choice of where to go, and the only way to find the one embassy you're looking for is to run your finger down the full list. IMHO Singapore does this the right way. It's quite compact, and has no descriptions unless necessary (eg. that the Indian HC doesn't issue visas to non-residents). Jpatokal 06:12, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Nail salons

The following was copied from User talk:Wrh2 in regards to the reverting of a nail salon from the Mountain View (California) article:

There are a lot of female travelers that would welcome information on nail salons etc. I know a number of professional woman that seldom gets time to pamper themselves while doing the 9 to 5 thing, so they always incorporate this into their holidays. Maybe information like that can go under the Cope section? --NJR_ZA 05:42, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

My thought is that if we add things like nail salons we might as well add barbershops, convenience stores, dry cleaners etc. It's a bit of a Wikitravel:Slippery slope in that we're then listing anything a traveler could possibly ever look for, even when those things can just as easily be found in the local yellow pages. That's probably fine in really small towns that don't have anything else, but in a city with hundreds of business I think we should focus on those establishments that are of interest to the majority of travelers - ie restaurants, hotels, bars, and a few highlights in terms of unique stores, major shopping areas, etc, otherwise it will be difficult to draw a line as to what is appropriate and what isn't. -- Ryan • (talk) • 11:55, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

I've added barbers/laundromats/etc into articles. As long as I've been around, the Wikitravel:Big city article template has had this under Cope:

This section is for all those little items that people need to know when they're in a city. Where can you do laundry? Go to a gym? Get computers repaired? Anything that has to do with the practicalities of daily life should go here.

I agree with having this kind of information in articles. I've thought of reasons why people travel, besides tourism. Business trips, weddings, parties, or even funerals. I think some people would like to know where to get their hair or nails done or where they can get their suit dry-cleaned or tailored. Sure, that stuff can be found in the yellow pages, but so can most of the restaurants, hotels and museums. I'm not going to start adding this information to every article, but if someone adds it, I think it's fine to leave it.

I do agree that we need to set up some guidelines - I don't think we should start adding every convenience store, florist or dog kennel just because someone might find it useful. -- Fastestdogever 13:15, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Based largely on personal experience barber shops/hair salons/nail salons (Alright, I didn't go to a nail salon, but...) are very important when you're traveling, especially on extended trips.

I'm in favor of allowing several services under the the "Cope" section: Hair/Nail salons, laundromats, gyms, and embassies, and consulates. Everything else I'm weary of, though, for international travelers I see the benefit of allowing listings for florists, since it is good practice to present a gift to someone, if they welcome you into their house while you're abroad.

Also, will people please comment on #Embassies_Part_II? Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:31, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

One could make an argument for almost any kind of walk-in business: I might want to rent a DVD, buy this week's new comics, have my tarot read, pierce a body part, get my glasses repaired, etc. Limiting articles to things that are clearly travel-related or popular with tourists (doesn't everyone who goes to Tijuana come back with a tattoo they don't remember getting?) seems like a good idea to me. - Todd VerBeek 09:39, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] bloated Understand-ing

A few things that say they should be in "Understand" I kinda am not so sure about:

• Newspapers ( I think should be in Cope)

• Sports teams ( I think should be in See/Do)

• Province (suggests putting it in "its own region page", but that's not the case necessarily... I think we should remove this one altogether) – cacahuate ^talk 03:04, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Agreed. I'd put sports teams in "See". - Todd VerBeek 09:05, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Whether we decide to have sports teams in "See" or "Do", I agree that they shouldn't be in the "Understand" section. I think that Cleveland#Do is the right idea of how sports teams should be handled. Newspapers in the "Cope" section sounds good to me. Also agreed that Province should be removed. That's already covered in Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy -- Fastestdogever 15:30, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

I can agree with the first suggestion, but sports teams should go under "Do", mainly because audience participation is much more active than that of the theatre or opera, but policy directs people to put information about the theatre and opera under "Do". Regarding the last suggestion, I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 15:54, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Province - a territorial unit. It's confusing because it doesn't belong on this page. Kind of like listing "State" or "County", neither of which belong here. At least, I think that's what it's getting at - it took me a minute to figure it out myself. -- Fastestdogever 16:04, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Ha, I understand what a province is, but thanks for the explanation. :) What I don't understand is why a province or a state (since its also listed) wouldn't "necessarily" get its own page. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:54, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Because we don't always break up a country or state according to its governmental provinces... I don't think we should encourage people to always create articles for provinces when all that's often warranted is West XXX, North XXX, etc... and I agree, sports could go in "Do" – cacahuate ^talk 18:14, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

That makes sense. Yeah, I'd say remove it or redirect people to Wikitravel:Geographic hierarchy. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 18:17, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Deleted province, changed sports to Do and newspapers to Cope – cacahuate ^talk 18:18, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Numerous things...

Archived from the Pub:

I have a few questions/comments/idea. Is there a place with all the pages listed? Are the pages supposed to include history about the places? Because I've seen very few that have it. And my idea is... some kind of rating system for places. Maybe on the discussion page for each place, we could have the people that have been there give a 1-5 star rating of the locale and give reasons why. That way people know what others think about the place and see if it would be a good place to visit. Andrew 00:00, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

• There are lists of Itineraries and Travel topics and Wikitravel:Namespace index. I don't know of a list for destination guides, but they are linked by a hierarchy of geographical tags. If you start from a high level of that hierarchy, say a continent article, it should have links to things below.

• I think history is a bit of a slippery slope. There often should be some, to orient the traveller, help him or her appreciate what he or she sees and perhaps avoid offending people. On the other hand, there's no need to give detail that would just clutter s travel guide; leave that to Wikipedia. Also, discussing history often invokes controversies we should avoid getting tangled in. We may need to warn travellers of these, but need not analyse them or take sides. "Just the facts, ma'm".

• I like the idea of pointing out good places to go, but doubt that star ratings are the way to do it. The country, region or state/province articles should have links to the best places, with a bit of comment. Itineraries like A week near Hong Kong or One month in Southeast Asia can point out good places within an area and routes between them. Pashley 02:34, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

See Special:Allpages for a list of all Wiki pages. Some' history about a place is probably fine (it goes under the "Understand" heading), so long as the principle of Wikitravel:The traveller comes first is followed - as Pashley noted, we're writing travel guides, not an encyclopedia, and an article that goes into too much detail is sure to be trimmed, but many of the best articles do provide some background about a place. As to rating destinations based on their "travel worthiness", I have a feeling that may be a tough sell - it's very difficult to come to a consensus on such things, and I'm personally a bit uncomfortable with the idea of having to say (for example) that Philadelphia is a "4" while Cleveland is merely a "3". -- Ryan 02:56, 17 September 2006 (EDT)

True. I did mean only a bit of history. I have seen a few places, though, that simply don't have any. I'll try to find them and fix them. Your opinions on ratings? True, I accept that. Not the best thought on my part. So naming some more interesting places under itineraries would be the best way to go about saying which places are good to visit? Thanks for feedback! Andrew 22:16, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

Nice discussion, and it's come up a couple of times. I think the history of a destination should be the bare minimum to help you understand the cultural and linguistic state of the place. Especially if historical events play a part in the museums, attractions, or things to see or do in a place, it makes sense to outline those historical events briefly. Digging overly deeply into branches of history that travellers won't have first-hand (or second-hand) encounters with is probably too much information. --Evan 23:54, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

I absolutely concur with Evan on brevity in History sections; Wikipedia ("WP") and other sources will usually provide more exhaustive and authoritative information for those folks that like to research before they go. We should be short and pithy with the encyclopaedic type content and concentrate on those areas that WP can't (and won't, due to WP policy constraints) cover. The History type sections can usually have just a Wikified link and we should concentrate on the up-to-date practical stuff.

Star ratings in a formalised way are offensive for locales and inevitably will lead to edit wars and arguments. (They may be useful in warning of a "Five Star mugging risk" or a "Three Star toilet" in an unformalised figure-of-speech way.)

Star ratings in a formalised way may be something to consider for our articles themselves, though.

...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} • 09:18, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

You may want to look at Wikitravel:Article status. As far as history, I think we agree although I don't think of Wikitravel as the travel adjunct to Wikipedia, but as an independent project to create travel guides (see Wikitravel:goals and non-goals). Long historical treatises that don't enhance the travel experience are dead weight in a travel guide. --Evan 12:09, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Gaimhreadhan, we have an article status as Evan points out, but those are for the quality of the articles, not for the destinations they cover. As for Wikitravel rating places or hotels or restaurant, we do not have a system yet, but there will soon be a sister site launched where travellers can review and rate places. I will leave Evan to reveal more details, because I have no idea how much I should at this stage. — Ravikiran 12:54, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Not a Travelogue

Archived from the Pub:

So one of the non-goals of wikitravel is to be a personal travel log (or, one of the goals is to not be a log, or . . . well you get what I mean). Where does a more in-depth personal experience with something mentioned on an article belong? Say, I went to a brewpub listed in an article and felt like describing the local beers I tried, discussing the pub, etc. Does that belong here? I would guess that it does, in reasonable amount, and that it should be placed in the relevant article's discussion page. Is there consensus on this subject? Jordanmills 21:47, 30 September 2006 (EDT)

We really don't have a place for the information you are talking about. If you want to add a few comments about items that are good (or bad) on the menu, that would be okay, but we don't want first person references and it should be brief. The "discussion" page is for discussing how the article should be composed and not information about the location. What I mean by that is we would use that page to discuss the content, but not include content. Some like this page... general discussion and talk. Hope that helps. -- Tom Holland (xltel) 22:38, 30 September 2006 (EDT)

I think that this is an important question and I'd like to see more discussion on this. My thoughts follow:

• Yes it is true that currently we do not have place for such information. Of course you're allowed to use the first person there, and you are allowed to mention your personal experience at particular restaurants, but only as a way to discuss the guide. For example, if an article gives a restaurant high praise and you just had a crappy experience there, it is perfectly okay to mention this in the talk page, but it is even more preferred to go change the article yourself. The theory then is that those who preferred the earlier version may object on the talk pages and then you are supposed to discuss the change.
• However, I think that both from a traveller's point of view and from the point of view of making a travel guide, there is something unsatisfactory about this. For one thing, the two edits might be months apart and the original editor might not even be watching the page. Instead of a consensus or a debate about exactly which areas a restaurant scores and where it sucks, it will end up reflecting the views of whoever edited it last. Essentially, we end up losing valuable information.
• From a traveller's point of view, personal reviews and experiences are a valuable service that Wikitravel is not providing right now. I see the value of a travel-guide style "name, address, phone number, 2-3 lines about the place", but I also see the value of reading about other travellers' personal experiences. Also, many people who may not be comfortable plunging forward and editing a travel guide would be comfortable writing about their own experience in the first person.
• The same goes for a personal travelogue too. Some people have used their user spaces to plan out journeys and record their experiences, but our policies frown on such use. We are supposed to convert travelogues into rather impersonal "itineraries".
• The point I am getting at is that both for retaining users and for enriching the guide we need a space for the personal experiences of users. Users who are not comfortable writing travel guides can hang out at places where they can review and discuss restaurants, and write travelogues, and those who are interested in the guide can mine those experiences to build the guide.
• The good news is that this will probably happen. One of the goals of the merger with World66 was exactly that. Unfortunately, in all the hullabulloo about being "sold" to Internet Brands, we ended up not discussing this at all. Evan and Maj haven't yet discussed what is going to happen on that front, but I hope they do so soon. — Ravikiran 03:09, 2 October 2006 (EDT) (P.S. Also see this [3])

Crappy - good experience. For a tourist from Italy, perhaps the spaghetti from local branch of pizza hut is horrible. But for a local reviewer, the same spaghetti is the best Italian food in town.

Just a follow up on this discussion-- feel free to email User:Maj directly if you'd like more information on the "personal travel" site we're developing. Ravikiran pretty much nailed every reason for creating this type of space and we're really excited about seeing things move forward! Maj 11:49, 10 October 2006 (EDT)

There's a request for comments and a link to the (now public!) beta site on shared here. Just in case some folks haven't seen it. Maj 18:10, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Phillipine Passport Certification Transwiki

Archived from the Pub:

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to ask about this. I'm from Wikibooks, and we have a module there about how to get a certified copy of a Philippeans passport. The Wikibooks community has determined that the artical should be deleted, but some people have suggested that perhaps the material would find a suitable home here. The original author of the page cannot be contacted.

The page will probably be deleted from our servers within a week. If people here would like to save a copy of it, you can do so within that time. If not, that's alright too. Thanks. -- Whiteknight (Wikibooks) 09:35, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

That's not really very relevant for us either, and what's more, we can't use the content here without the original author's permission as the licenses differ. Jpatokal 09:49, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

Thanks for the reply. I hate to delete content if there might be another home out there. But I guess this isn't the right place either. --Whiteknight (Wikibooks) 19:42, 23 October 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Travel agencies

Archived from the Pub:

Due to my edit war over linking to a travel agency on the Uzbekistan article I need to ask the community: is there a place for listing and linking to travel agencies on Wikitravel? If so, where do these listings belong?

I could argue for either side, but I feel that it's something we shouldn't pander to because we're not Yellow Pages. -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 20:50, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Hi Sapphire, If you want to be fair then why did you allow to put links to www.advantour.com (Travel agency) and www.uzbekistanair.com (another travel agency)? They are in direct competition to www.visituzbekistan.eu Let's treat everyone fairly! If you allowed one then you have to do the same for others or not at all! I think you have to respond to my comment! Waiting for the response! Furkat Ayrum Internasional Limited (www.visituzbekistan.eu) —The preceding comment was added by Furkat (talk • contribs)

I've removed Advantour's website too because that link was in violation of our policy. If I were you, I'd make a case as to why we should include travel agency information on Wikitravel, rather debate about fairness. -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:17, 8 December 2006 (EST)

Post scriptum: There is not a link to uzbekistanair.com on the Uzbekistan article. There is a link to www.uzairways.com, but per policy this looks like a legit link because it is the primary (official) link for Uzbekistan Airways. -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:23, 8 December 2006 (EST)

I confess to putting the Advantour site there some time ago! I did it after I heard a case of someone in the UAE being conned $500 for visa support by an Uzbek 'travel' company. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but I understand it should not be there now.Davidbstanley 18:28, 13 December 2006 (EST)

Regarding tour links... I've think a company that provides tours is a primary source if they give the tours themselves. If they just sell tickets to someone else' tour, then they are just a travel agency and should be deleted as any non-primary source. Because it's so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in this area, I have a profound hate for all tour listings. -- Colin 13:57, 9 December 2006 (EST)

RESPONSE!

Dear Andrew!

Thanks for your response! It was uzbekair.com not uzbekistanair.com I think we sort the case out. I think it is a waste of time why we should or should not list travel agents. The main thing is keep it nice, clear and neutral!

Have a nice morning!

P.S. I would not mind if you could refer to my company(www.visituzbekistan.eu) as a reputable one. It has recently opened a new office in London. We are expanding to China and Russia soon. I would be very greatful for that!

It has been our policy to only link to "Official" travel sites (see: What to link to). I am sure your company is very reputable and provides an excellent service to your clients. That is not being questioned. I might also mention that decisions are made here by the community and not my an individual. (see: Consensus) We all do our best to cooperate in seeing that our policies are followed and I know that Andrew is doing that in this case. So, what you are dealing with here is a policy that is set by the community of "all" users on Wikitravel, not just one person and if policy is changed, it will be a decision for all users of Wikitravel. (see: Wiki information) This said, we may on occasion miss removing a external link for a non-official site. When those are found they are removed. We do our best to be fair and if there is a conflict we do our best to get a consensus from the community. I hope you understand we do not favor any travel agency over any other. You are welcomed to add some information about your agency on your talk page and we encourage you to add valuable content to our guide. -- Tom Holland (xltel) 06:30, 9 December 2006 (EST)

HAVE YOU READ THE ABOVE?

[edit] Movie source?

Archived from the Pub:

What about creating Special:Moviesources, doing the same thing as Special:Booksources? I tried typing a movie ASIN in the booksource page, but it didn't work... not that we want to advocate flooding articles with book and movie suggestions, but sometimes there are some really relevant ones... Cacahuate 10:03, 15 January 2007 (EST)

I would vote for having a max of 3 books (literature, not guidebooks) plus a max of 3 movies on a region somewhere in the end of article. It would really help to understand local culture and to fall in love with the region even before you're there. I would love to have such suggestions, for example, for regions like Alaska, Tashkent, Kyrgizia, Morocco, Istanbul, Athens, Vietnam, Algeria. I've seen in Slippery Slopes that we don't like to do anything with books or music or movies, but I'm not sure we should be that radically conservative. --DenisYurkin 04:29, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Related discussion: #Recommended / further reading / destination travel books and publications --DenisYurkin 02:42, 8 January 2008 (EST)

I'd support a Wikipedia-esque "References In Pop Culture" section in which to note a location's use in a movie or book. For instance the New Zealand article would mention Lord of the Rings and Boston's article would have mention of say The Departed and so forth. Using advice from movies on the other hand seems like it could end in peril and arguments.

--Euphemism 01:35, 22 February 2007 (EST)

I wouldn't support ones that just reference a place in Pop Culture. I think it would likely just be a mention in the "Understand" or "Cope" section, and only in really useful obvious cases... we don't want to reference things just for the sake of having a list, but there's times when something is really relevant, like a hugely popular travelogue for a certain place, etc. See Afghanistan#Read. "Dark Star Safari" by Paul Theroux should probably be listed in East Africa since it's a popular route and most that are doing it are reading or have read it. Or "The Sheltering Sky" for Morocco. Just really classic, obvious choices... - Cacahuate 02:21, 22 February 2007 (EST)

I do believe you've converted me. After some thinking and reading I realized that if it has no relevance to traveling then it has no place here

Euphemism 22:07, 26 February 2007 (EST)

[edit] listing by section

Hey there, anonymous editor! Interesting idea that you have, but I for one will dissent... mostly because I think it will only serve to duplicate the info, and trying to keep both sections updated will be an unnecessary headache. I think the way the page is organized now, alphabetically, is the single fastest way to figure out where to put something that you don't know where to put. On the other hand, if someone is just curious about what goes in a specific section then they should look at the various article templates, where there are short descriptions of what to use each section for. – cacahuate ^talk 01:08, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

I actually kind of liked the by-section listing. I'm not a big fan of long lists, and that gave a nice way of breaking down what has become a list of over a hundred items. Your point about having to update two places anytime something changes is valid, but I don't know if that's such a bad thing... anyhow, hopefully others can add their thoughts so we can come to a final decision. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:30, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

If the point is to break down the long list, then I'd vote for creating a subsection per letter of the alphabet, which will leave us with a TOC for easier navigation as the list gets longer. If the point is to tell people what kind of info goes in the "Buy" section, we've already got that described in the article templates. My understanding of this page is that it's to help when you've got something in mind for an article and don't know where to put it... say a barbershop... when I get to this page, I would find it much easier to find "barbershop" in an alphabetical listing than scouring each section of the "by section" area to find it. Anyway, I'll revert my revert so people can see what we're talking about while discussing – cacahuate ^talk 01:39, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

The thing I liked about the section listings is that for someone who is trying to figure out where (for example) "mosque" goes they won't currently find "mosque" in the alphabetical listing, so it gives them a way to browse the sections and see if the examples listed for that section are similar to "mosque". The article templates could be used for that, too, but to me this page was always kind of a quick-reference card sort of thing. I don't feel that strongly about this issue, so whatever people decide is best is fine with me. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:49, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

"I would find it much easier to find 'barbershop' in an alphabetical listing than scouring each section of the 'by section' area to find it." Of course, the alphabetical listing is still there - and precedes the "by section" area. Does adding an area that others might find helpful detract from the utility of the area that you find most useful? 68.254.158.22 09:46, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

No, we just aren't in the habit of duplicating information. If we do keep the "by section" section, I think it should be a sentence or two, similar to the Article Templates, describing what kind of info goes there, as opposed to actually listing a lot of things there. I suppose we can just see how it develops, but to me I think it's going to make a mess of things. But if I'm alone on that, I'll shut up  :) – cacahuate ^talk 19:44, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] cafes, tea- and coffeehouses

As long as Drinks section refers for guidelines to Bars listing, I think we can decide that coffehouses, teahouses and cafes (which focus on tea, coffee and pastry rather than alco) belong to Eat section, not Drink. Currently, it's frequent problem: "where to stick some details on coffee in the region? on local alternative to starbucks? etc". Objections? --DenisYurkin 17:12, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

I personally would rather see our policies on the "drink" section expand a bit away from just drinking alchohol. That section should be, in my view, for any nightlife activity. I would include coffee shops and tea houses that stay open late, as they are good places to hang out and chat in many countries (especially countries where alcohol is forbidden). Coffee shops that are just open in the morning and serve sandwiches for lunch, however, should probably go in "eat." --Peter ^Talk 04:03, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Art galleries

Art galleries are currently listed as "see," but since their Raison d'être is to sell you works of art, shouldn't they go in the "buy" section? I definitely see them as more of a shopping (if only browsing in my impoverished case) than a sightseeing activity. --Peter ^Talk 04:03, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] AA

(Moved from Wikitravel:Travellers' pub by User:Bill-on-the-Hill)

Someone recently added a link to AA meeting info to the "Drink" section of an article, and while there's an obvious logic behind that, I'm wondering if this is information we want to include. I can see AA info becoming hard to maintain, and perhaps better handled by Alcoholics Anonymous itself. But on the other hand, it's obviously useful to many travelers. If we do include info about AA meetings, is this the best place for it or would the "Cope" section be better? - Todd VerBeek 17:15, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

if we do, i say put it in the drink section... then maybe they won't drink in the first place and won't have to "cope" with themselves in an AA meeting the next day... – cacahuate ^talk 00:31, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't think it's really relevant to travel, and not a slope we want to take on. IMO it's better to leave it out. Jordanmills 00:37, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

I'd leave it out altogether. It may be useful for a few travellers but it's possibly too fine grained for Wikitravel. Otherwise, maybe use the Stay healthy section. -- Ricardo (Rmx) 08:20, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

I wouldn't put it on the city page, because that it just too much to keep up (in the small the town I live in there are at least three churches that have weekly meetings). If anything, I think I'd put it on the "stay healthy" section country page. -- Fastestdogever

[edit] luggage storage

...goes where? (if it's not a part of a bus/train station/airport)? And if it is? --DenisYurkin 04:53, 16 September 2007 (EDT)

I would probably mention it in Get in if it's part of a transport station... add a line in like (LAX will also store bags on the first floor for $5/day each) or something. If it's a hotel, mention it in the description of the hotel. I can't think of a scenario where it wouldn't be part of a hotel or a transport station, but if you find an example, it would help figure out where to put it :) – cacahuate ^talk 13:56, 16 September 2007 (EDT)

See Pamplona#Cope. I think it's a good place, and I would even vote for having all of them in one place in the article, not attach it to specific transport. --DenisYurkin 16:19, 16 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Bike & Ski

Bike rental in Get around whereas Ski rental in Buy. Mistake or not? LukeWestwalker ⇔ 13:26, 30 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Orientation section

Where should we include an orientation section? Should it be a subsection of "Understand", "Get around", "Get in"? -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 06:11, 17 December 2007 (EST)

Depends on the destination/article - sometimes "Understand" is best, other times "Get around", and in exceptional cases it needs a "==" level heading. Don't think I've seen a good case for putting it in "Get in" though. Maybe "Get around" should be the default? ~ 58.8.4.20 06:33, 17 December 2007 (EST)

Actually, I suggest the "Understand" section, because, as in the Cincinnati guide, the section can tell people about the characteristics and history of neighborhoods, while also giving them an understanding of how to get around the city. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 06:58, 17 December 2007 (EST)

Perhaps "Understand" makes more sense as the default for huge cities and anywhere with sub-districts, and "Get around" makes more sense as the default for smaller places.

If/when it's going to be a sub-section of "Understand" then I think it should be the final sub-section, so that it sits directly above the "Get around" section. ~ 203.144.143.4 07:15, 17 December 2007 (EST)

Sorry, my mistake - moving it to the bottom of "Understand" puts it immediately above "Get in", not "Get around" - but still I think it's probably the best place if/when it's going to be an "Understand" sub-section. ~ 203.144.143.4 07:47, 17 December 2007 (EST)

[edit] Where the sun don't shine

Am I the only one who thinks of this phrase every time I see the title of this article? Texugo 01:47, 8 January 2008 (EST)

No. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:57, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Don't you think Where the sun don't shine qualifies as a destination and should have its own article? Texugo 18:38, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Can you sleep there? -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 18:55, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Well, I understand that it is possible to get your head lodged up there. Sounds like lodging to me.

Also, for clarification purposes, I propose that we move this article to Wikitravel:Where you can shove it. Texugo 20:54, 8 January 2008 (EST)

[edit] duty-free shops for a huge city

I left a question in Talk:New York (city)#duty free shops at JFK on where to stick info on airport shopping for NYC, as a huge (and districtified) city which still has not a [legit] article for its major airport. I would appreciate your comments there. --DenisYurkin 11:03, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Farmer's Markets

In a recent edit EE moved the Culver City farmer's market listing from "Do" to "Buy". I reverted it without much thought based on the idea that a farmer's market is an event like a fair... however, since this is a gray area it's probably worth discussing and then adding an entry to the "Where you can stick it" listings. I would tend to think of these markets as "Do" items since they aren't permanent and are as likely to offer music and other entertainment as shopping, but others may feel differently. Thoughts? -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:02, 9 November 2008 (EST)

Markets should be in Buy. Just because they are in "Buy" doesn't mean they aren't any event or a destination. There can be music and entertainment in shopping malls, city shopping centers as well.--Inas 22:15, 7 January 2009 (EST)

[edit] Post offices

Is there a reason why post offices are not listed here? If included on a page, they obviously belong in the "Contact" section. Also, in the Washington, D.C./East End page, I have added FedEx Kinko's locations. Especially when on business travel, shipping/fax/copy/internet places are incredibly useful and I have needed them on many business trips (and leisure trips). For a place like D.C., there certainly are a lot of business travelers, in addition to tourists. Aude 00:39, 9 January 2009 (EST)

No reason, and Contact is the place for 'em. Plunge forward! Jpatokal 01:36, 9 January 2009 (EST)

[edit] Audio Commentary for Walking Tours (Spam?)

An anonymous user, or two, has been sticking URL's for Geogad walking tours into the Do sections of several London, San Francisco and New Orleans district articles, as well as a few other places - 11 articles in total, so far. This is being done on the basis that Walking Tours is listed under Do. However, I do not see these as Walking tours, rather they are like an audio guide book, so could go under a new section called Listen as a subsection of Understand. But I also think this has the potential for spam, as the same website deals with a whole lot of places. So I think it should be listed, at most, just once - but I have no idea where to put it. Any thoughts? - Huttite 02:16, 3 February 2009 (EST)

→ Wikitravel:External links#What not to link to: In particular, avoid links to other travel guides, including audio guides and audio tours. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:27, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Perhaps we should say here that we do not list these sorts of travel guides, just to be clear. - Huttite 04:33, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Actually it might be very helpful to have some pointers to "what not to list" which could contain a short list of things to avoid and would also point to relevant policy pages such as Wikitravel:External links#Whta not to link to, Wikitravel:Bodies of water, Wikitravel:Avoid negative reviews, Wikitravel:Don't tout, etc. -- Ryan • (talk) • 10:43, 3 February 2009 (EST)

My apologies, I represent Geogad, and I have been refining and adding our walking tours to the wikis. The listings have recently been pulled even though they have been in some locations for awhile. These are not audio guides, but actually tours that we have put together. There are custom directions printable and a mobile platform for travelers to walk the route. I would like to know the proper location to place these, I will also remove links to the mobile site and the android applicaiton if that helps. Thanks and I look forward to a response 98.210.115.180 15:22, 3 February 2009 (EST)

If you wouldn't mind, could you read Wikitravel:Welcome, business owners and create a user account? It makes communication easier. In addition, once you've got a user page you can add information about your business on your user page. If your company actually conducts physical tours with tour guides then I don't think there's a problem with the listings, but if it's simply a service that sells/offers tapes or MP3 downloads then I think current consensus is to avoid listing those sorts of services in Wikitravel. Consensus can always be changed, so if you feel that such services should be listed here please contribute to the discussion on Wikitravel talk:External links/Audio guides. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:18, 3 February 2009 (EST)

I'm not sure I agree, I've tried a few tour podcasts, mostly downloaded from torrents cause I suspect the quality varies greatly, and I don't want to shell out good money, on poor quality, when I can have multiple beers for the same price. Anyway, several of the ones I've tried were surprisingly good and provided in-depth information about the attractions, something which is more or less a non-goal for us - unlike say Lonely Planet - which more or less strives to be the exact same thing as we do. I've actually inadvertently broken this policy myself with a link to Audiowalks in the Copenhagen do section, since I know for a fact that they are good quality for the price. --Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 11:03, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Could any discussion on whether or not to list audio tours be moved to Wikitravel talk:External links/Audio guides? This subject has been heavily debated, leading to the current external links policy on the matter. -- Ryan • (talk) • 11:16, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Ah my appologies --Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 11:28, 3 February 2009 (EST)

[edit] Consulate/Embassy lists

Copied from User talk:AHeneen:

Hi, AHeneen. =) I saw the new section you added to Florida listing various foreign consulates throughout the state. I'm not sure I see the usefulness of such a list. Any individual traveler is only going to have a use for the consulates for his own home nation, and maybe one or two others. The rest of the list is useless to him, and it takes up a lot of space in the article. Would you consider alternative ways of presenting this information? LtPowers 09:22, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

The "any individual traveler" you refer to could come from any of the countries whose consulates are listed. I think it would be beneficial to many people, as the state is one of the most visited places in the US. I have come across many cities which list consulates (although not all in a given city) and thought that FL could use such a list. The goal of the Florida Expedition is to turn FL into a guide article and I think this information falls into the scope of a guide article. As for taking up space, the FL article needs more content and once it's lengthened a bit, this section won't seem so large. I don't know how to make the text smaller or make the space between listings smaller; otherwise, I'd make the listings smaller to save space. It took quite a while to complete the list and get a website for each consul. If you disagree or are still unsure, feel free to get another opinion. AHeneen 20:31, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

As a second opinion, I also don't think this information is useful enough to be included on a state page. I think most travelers would have the resources to find the consulate for their country if its important to them. With that said, one way to minimize the size this information takes up on the Florida page would be to create a Florida/Foreign Consulates page and make a note: "There are many Consulates in the State of Florida which can be useful to foreign travelers, see this page for a complete listing."--Jtesla16 20:46, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Care to comment here? --Peter ^Talk 21:58, 5 April 2009 (EDT)'

(edit conflict) What I meant by "any individual traveler" is this: Imagine a visitor to Florida from, say, Canada. Our Canadian visitor is in Pensacola and need of the services of a consulate. Which is more useful to her: a list of all the consulates in Florida, which indicates that there is a Canadian consulate in Miami, along with dozens of others she doesn't care about; or a list of all Canadian consulates in the U.S., which tells her she could go to Atlanta instead, which is much closer? I don't in any way mean to dismiss the time and effort you put into this list, but I just think this information is better presented elsewhere and elseways. It's nothing personal, I swear. LtPowers 22:05, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

I see your point. To further complicate things, I should note that some countries' consulates have explicit jurisdictions which may not correspond to the closest consulate. Brazil's Miami consulate has jurisdiction over all of Florida, so you can't apply for a Brazilian visa in Atlanta. I think maybe we could create a page listing all embassies & consulates in the US by country then city. That way a Canadian in trouble could go to that page, click "Canada" in the navigation box, then see a list of consulates for Canada and determine the closest one. AHeneen 22:16, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Continued from above:

We have a few very long consulate/embassy lists floating around (like this and this). They strike me as being pretty clearly useful, but use up a ton of space with information that is useless for the vast majority of readers (since any reader interested in consular information would only want it regarding one consulate). Might it be worthwhile to use sub-articles for consular information, like Chicago/Consulates, or Florida/Consulates—both of these have already been proposed, but I figure we should coordinate this, as it would be precedent setting. --Peter ^Talk 21:51, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

Seems like a good idea to me. To add to the list, I copied the format for the list in Florida from the Washington, D.C. article. AHeneen 22:07, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

I strongly support this idea. These YellowPage-esque listings are not appealing to the eye, and are of dubious value to most travelers. I think this info should be available, but not forced viewing for most. The only other solution which comes to mind, that would avoid making sub-articles, would be Collapsible listings. This would work like the Content boxes on each page, where one could click a "+" to expand the list of consulates, which is otherwise hidden. I don't know how to code this at the moment though. --Jtesla16 22:18, 5 April 2009 (EDT)

I tried out collapsible listings previously (see Template:CollapsibleTest), but the MediaWiki extensions needed for them don't seem to be enabled. Jpatokal 22:51, 7 April 2009 (EDT)

For some reason collapsible listings are functional on the Metadata tables for Images, but when I place the code into a typical edit window, it does not work. Any ideas why? --Jtesla16 11:55, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] See vs. Do, again

One of the hardest things to figure out about where to stick something is whether it goes under "See" or "Do". This article, I'm afraid, might only heighten that confusion, as it places sedentary activities like going to the theater under "Do", while active attractions like zoos (which can require a fair bit of walking) are under "See". "Famous buildings/structures" are under "See" but walking tours of those very buildings are under "Do".

I realize this has been raised before but I think it's time to definitively address this. I think longtime contributors have an instinctive understanding of what goes where, but that understanding may not be correctly described on this page.

Thoughts?

-- LtPowers 10:48, 23 May 2009 (EDT)

Not sure. With regards to a zoo being a "Do" for the amount of walking, is it really more about interacting with something or just looking at things (animals)? Some zoos or pseudo-zoos (like Bush Gardens or Sea World in the US) are very interactive, with rides, shows, etc. and would be fine under "Do" and then there are zoos where you simply look at animals and are very appropriate for "see". I think zoos should be split because walking shouldn't be a factor. Many attractions require lots of walking, but are really about seeing things. Take Versailles for example, it is a huge complex and requires lots of walking...but isn't it about "seeing" something? There are lots of large museums which require walking, but aren't they about seeing what's in them? As far as building go, listing them under "see" is very appropriate, while a tour is appropriate under do. For instance, it is one thing to "see" (from the outside) Toronto's CN Tower, or Paris' Eiffel Tower, or Rio's Christ the Redemer...it is another to eat at the top of the CN Tower; climb the Eiffel Tower; or climb up to the CtR statue. See my point. If walking tours are offered of just one sight, then they can be listed under the attraction or mentioned as part of it:

• Building X, 12 X St. (Corner of X & Y Sts.). A historic building in the heart of the ZZ National Historic District.  edit
  • Bob's Building X Tours. Take a 2 hour guided walking tour of historic Building X. All our guides are locals with at least 5 years of experience leading tours!  edit

vs.

• Building X, 12 X St. (Corner of X & Y Sts.). A historic building in the heart of the ZZ National Historic District. Many guided walking tours are available from neighboring tourist shops as well official National Park Service staff.  edit

Otherwise, if a walking tour is available for multiple sights or a district, then I think it would be very appropriate to place in the "Do" section while the individual attractions remain in the "See" section. Just my thoughts.AHeneen 14:24, 23 May 2009 (EDT)

I think the confusion comes from our stylish, but occasionally opaque header names. Replace "see" with sights and "do" with activities, and it becomes clearer where things go. Theater is an activity, if not a particularly active one. Tours are clearly activities. Zoos are somewhere in between, but I'm happy for them to stay in "see." Parks are often very tricky—in some cases the point of going there is just to marvel at its beauty, whereas they are often more relevant for sports, picnics, etc. Sherman Park in Chicago is one of the former, since a picnic there could too easily be disrupted by gunfire, but then again we put it in the "do" section just because it parallels Marquette Park well. I don't think we need to be too rigid with borderline cases. But theater still seems straightforward enough of an "activity" that I think we should keep it firmly in "do." --Peter ^Talk 14:33, 23 May 2009 (EDT)

But why is viewing a play "do" while viewing an exhibit "see"? That's what I don't quite get. Is it because one is scheduled? The example listing on Wikitravel:Activity listings is Shakespeare's Globe Theatre, which seems the epitome of an attraction to me, not an activity. LtPowers 14:52, 23 May 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Spas

Should day spas go under "Cope" (with the hair salons, makeup parlors, and manicurists) or "Do" (with the swimming pools and other exercise-related activities)? LtPowers 19:11, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

Do. They are an attraction at the destination, and a popular activity when travelling. Not a basic service just to get by, which is what is implied by Cope. --inas 23:52, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Car rental agencies

Discussion moved to Wikitravel talk:External links#Car rental agencies

[edit] Dive sites

Moved in from the main article so this can be hammered into a more succinct form. Below written by User:Pbsouthwood. Gorilla Jones 17:20, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

• dive site - This is a case which does not fit in well with the general guidelines for articles. If the destination only has a small number of recognised dive sites it may be possible to fit them into the Do section of the main article, but in the case of destinations which have a large number of sites which are described in detail, it may be more appropriate for each site to be a short article. This arrangement is being explored in the topic Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay, in which the main aticle is linked from the Do section of the relevant City (Cape Town) and provides regional dive guide information, which is then linked to the individual dive sites, each of which provides detailed information to allow a visitor to plan and execute a dive at the site with or without use of local guides (people)

I think it's sufficient to just say that diving goes in Do. If a specific article has so many sites that they need to be split out, well that's no different than any other activity. LtPowers 20:06, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Fire and Police

What section does the fire department or police department go under, where can I stick it? OHWiki 20:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

That depends on what kind of information you wish to impart. If it involves emergency numbers, it goes in Stay safe (though you should probably only list them if 911 or some other generic emergency number isn't available). If they're historic locations or otherwise worth visiting, they go in See. LtPowers 21:53, 26 September 2009 (EDT)

[edit] taxi scams and safety for airport

I have found a verbose advice on safety and scams on getting in from airport by taxi in Lison: Lisbon#Getting from/to the airport. Should it stay in GetIn:ByPlane:Taxi, or move to GetAround:ByTaxi, or move to StaySafe section of the city article? --DenisYurkin 13:38, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

It appears to present concerns about leaving or getting to the airport, therefore it belongs in Get In#By plane. LtPowers 16:23, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Pronunciation

So if I wanted to emphasize somewhere it's pronounced CopenHAYgen and not all too common (and German like) CopenHAHgen, where would I do that? it doesn't really fit well with the introduction. and what would be the correct pseudo pronunciation be by the way? --Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 09:47, 4 November 2009 (EST)

I always though the correct Danish pronunciation was to insert a hot potato in your mouth and then grunt out "k'bn-AH-vn" =P

Slightly more seriously, either the first sentence of the article or the beginning of the Understand section should work. Jpatokal 11:12, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Based solely on our Wikitravel:Pseudo-phoneticization guide, I would render it as "KOH-pehn-HAH-gehn". But I'm not an expert at our pronunciation conventions. =) LtPowers 15:30, 4 November 2009 (EST)