From Wikitravel

[edit] Excellent job!

Nice start on this page, Todd. Now we have a much better place to direct well-meaning business owners instead of the Wikitravel:Don't tout page (which now seems a little too negative for people that are trying to promote their business, but just don't quite understand our guidelines). Could we also add something here about images? I'm not quite sure how to say it, but similar to:

Since we don't use images of hotels, restaurants, nightclubs, etc. please try to describe your business as straightforward as possible. We would love it if you upload images of things to see and do in your city, just be sure you understand that images you upload will be licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike license that we use.

Hopefully, something like this will let them know that: a) images of their hotel rooms/bars/logo will be deleted, and b) they won't upload all of the images from their website that they don't really wish to change the license of. Any thoughts? -- Fastestdogever 10:27, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Good idea; I've incorporated this into the article. - Todd VerBeek 11:06, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

This is a great article, now we just need to link it in a bit more so people can actually find it! Jpatokal 04:31, 12 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Do we really want this?

I was pointed to this article a few days ago and I have to say that I was really shocked. Up to this day I thought we wanted to create a travel guide from travellers for travellers. Rule #6 from our goals and non-goals says that we would like business owners to update records and I have always taken this very literal, thinking that it would be ok to update e.g. opening hours, but not adding their hotel or restaurant to our pages. If we would allow this, one day (when Wikitravel is even more popular than it is today!) every business owner will try to create an entry for his business. And then Wikitravel will be reduced to a Yellow Pages for a city. Like rule #7 says, we do not want this. Noone reading a travelguide is interested in all 3547 restaurants of London. She or he wants recommondations, and even though a wiki will never be proof that this recommondations will be honest, we should at least try that they are... --Flip666 ^writeme! • 17:34, 27 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Original discussion

The following discussion was copied from User talk:Flip666 and provides further background to this discussion:

Thanks for all of your cleanups! One request, however, is that if something reads like an "ad" it is better to rephrase it than to remove it. Just like anyone else business owners are encouraged to contribute (see Wikitravel:Welcome, business owners) and it's best not to remove their content simply because it sounds commercial - the information is generally still helpful, even if the phrasing is off-putting. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:11, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

Ah, I did not knew that page! I personally do not like the idea that business owners write about their hotels etc. here, but it seems that this is only my opinion, so next time I will try to rephrase it. --Flip666 ^writeme! • 15:17, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

No, not alone, also my opinion! – cacahuate ^talk 16:16, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

Good to know. I am not sure if this has already been discussed, so before starting a new discussion in the pub I wrote Todd a note. --Flip666 ^writeme! • 16:33, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

See Wikitravel:Don't tout (Business employees, like everyone, are welcome to add information to Wikitravel) and Wikitravel:Goals and non-goals (#6: We would be thrilled to have representatives of these businesses keep those records up-to-date). I suspect there would be a huge amount of opposition to forbidding business owners from contributing, but at the same time if someone is blatantly violating the "don't tout" guidelines by copying advertising into multiple articles then the consensus has been that it is perfectly OK to remove those listings. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:51, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

I do not want to forbid someone contributing (and we cant anyway), but on the other hand we do not want to create yellow pages here. And if we encourage business owners to add to the listings that is exactly what the result will be. Goal #6 says that we want business owners to update the listings not to create a new entry. It is ok to update prices, opening hours, etc. but not descriptions. --Flip666 ^writeme! • 17:03, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

I can't find the discussion, but I mentioned it somewhere before, and my idea was pretty unpopular. It's a sticky situation... but almost impossible to police, especially if the person adding info is a native English speaker and can do it from a travelers' perspective. So far it usually seems to be pretty clear when someone is touting, and we revert it or tone it down. Mandarmani is a good example, several of us are watching that article carefully. A few times I've tried to be really friendly with certain business owners, like the lady in Flores (Guatemala) who has added info about her guesthouse. She also knows a lot about the island, I would imagine, so could potentially help us keep "Get in" and other sections up to date, and give info on things to do. I do see positive sides of them being involved, but I also have a HUGE dislike for people who tout. Hmmm. – cacahuate ^talk 18:36, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

I don't think we have a choice -- business owners will add their listings whether we like it or not. This policy/welcome page is our only chance to explain to them how they should do it and make them contribute productively. Otherwise, if their listings are just removed with a blanket ban, we'll just get more ballistic cases like Sihanoukville. (Not to mention that it's pretty much impossible to tell apart a positive review from a well-done tout. Eg. there's that one guy who's going around adding nicely done Hyatt listings: does he work for them, or is he just a huge fan?) Jpatokal 22:24, 27 July 2007 (EDT)

Of course we should try to explain instead of just removing entries. But on one hand we do not want to create yellow pages, on the other hand we are not allowed to remove obvious entries because of this guideline. So if we want to keep this page we'll have to remove non-goal #7... --Flip666 ^writeme! • 05:05, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

---

Related discussion: Wikitravel talk:Don't tout# marking advertisements written by business owner. --DenisYurkin 15:51, 26 November 2007 (EST)

[edit] how to remove info on competitors

I've rewritten the guidelines for removal: my belief is that there's no "authorities" here who can be asked for removal, but it should be a consensus in the community--as reached in discussion on a talk page. Objections? Comments? --DenisYurkin 15:58, 10 November 2007 (EST)

Looks good to me. Jpatokal 22:12, 10 November 2007 (EST)

[edit] encourage creating an account

I just found that this article doesn't have explicit encouragement to create a user account. Where it could fit best? I would also vote for giving benefits of having an account. --DenisYurkin 16:40, 27 November 2007 (EST)