This: other queer people seems highly insensitive! Is there another way to address the GLBT and those who identify with them other than "queer." I know that WikiTravel apologizes in advance if you find this term offensive, but I think we can use "GLBT". There are benefits to this people will be less offended and its one letter less than "queer" so you save time by writing "GLBT." Sapphire 17:45, 16 Apr 2005 (EDT)
Um, from the article itself:
We use the word "queer" here to refer to GLBT people. It's not meant to be hostile or dismissive, and is used in North America and other English-speaking regions as a positive name. If you're offended or worried by the term, we're sorry in advance.
Not being a delicate shade of lavender myself I'm not the best person to consult on the merits of said terms, but I will oppose "GLBT" just because it's such an monstrosity of an acronym. Would it be too hard to just stick with plain old "gay", or will transgendered crossdressing lesbians get their panties in a twist from this? Jpatokal 17:56, 16 Apr 2005 (EDT)
I think "GLBT" is probably a lot more inclusive than the plain old gay, which is apparently specific to males. Also it it is probably less inclusive than the even more monsterous acronym, GLBTI, which also includes intersex people, and we haven't got as far as hermaphrodites... Unfortunately most of the other word on this subject are either big, insensitive or both. There probably is no word better for the inclusiveness concept than the rather vague queer but then there are not a lot of other sensitive small words to choose from. Though this also reflects the social attitudes that a lot of the cultures have to queer people. -- Huttite 20:36, 16 Apr 2005 (EDT)
"I dont understand why gayguide should not be part of the template for all cities instead of being just a part of smaller set of information? Gaypopulation has particular interest in certain bars, clubs, gay-friendly accomodation/restaurants places and is usually suffering from homophobia in many even western countries (unless thay are instructed where to be open about their identity and where to be more private). Hope to hear back from you!" - Zb's question, on my talk page [Lionfish].
Should I have deleted these? They didn't have much content, and they broke the template. Also, there was already alot on the topic under "Drink" in Cologne, for example (also could be under "Understand").
If Zb wants to change the template for articles to include a section for GayGuide then it should first be discussed at Wikitravel talk:Article templates. Frankly, I do not see the need for such a section. Information like this should be included in the specific listing, or an appropriate section, such as Understand or Stay safe. Having a section devoted to a special interest group could see Wikitravel as being biased and skewed to a particular group of travelers. Wikitravel should cater for everyone, so our articles should be written from that viewpoint - neutrality - including all cultures, genders and orientations. In many respects, Zb's approach smacks of segregation and discrimination rather than inclusiveness and acceptability of diversity. I question if Zb has really thought that approach through properly and the downstream implications. Besides if Lionfish had not deleted the sections, someone else would have, (like me), and not even felt guilty about it. Also the removal is justified because it's not policy, yet. -- Huttite 17:37, 16 Apr 2005 (EDT)
I think the guidlines say it pretty well, but I just want to reiterate the fact that we do want this information in our guides-- it's just a matter of where it shows up and in what context. This is probably clear already, but I wanted to say it again... Majnoona 19:41, 16 Apr 2005 (EDT)
Thanks Maj and Huttite for sorting this out! I'm only an occasional contributor, and don't feel like I have the authority to deal with stuff like this ;P TY! Lionfish 05:42, 17 Apr 2005 (EDT) (11:43 BST)
Glad we could help. But really, you do have the "authority" (whatever that means on a wiki!) to make any changes you feel are needed. Of course, everyone else also has the same authority to change it back ;-) Majnoona 09:57, 17 Apr 2005 (EDT)
First of all I would like to mention that I am a complete Wiki NewB - so please feel free to inform me if I am asking questions in the wrong place or generally making a mess of things - I will try not to be offended :)
I thought that a small piece in a countries entry about it's gay and lesbian policies might be helpful to some visitors to WikiTravel. It could be concidered vital info for those visitors and could prompt more detailed info to be made available in other areas such as regional and city guides etc.
I could start with info about New Zealand where I lived most of my life for instance, and I am sure that every region has at least one contributor who is has knowledge on this subject. Even non-gay editors are likely to know the law/attitudes in their own country.
Off subject - I will try to help fill in some of the general info that has been requested about New Zealand's South Island over the next few months. I can see that it is sadly lacking in some areas.
Again, please inform me if I don't do things in the correct way. I may be new to Wiki's but I am not not new to the internet and have developed a thick 'cyber skin' over the years :)
The "Stay Safe" section is pretty important for many reasons, but it often lacks content. For example it's only recently that we added warnings for countries where Homosexuality is punished with death -- a pretty serious omission. We appreciate any contributions you have on this topic!-- Colin 22:04, 15 January 2007 (EST)
OK - I see a point - but are you not limiting the Wiki?
I got the idea that a Wiki should strive to be "a point of reference for all people' - ask a question and hopefully the Wiki will have the answer.
To quote a paragraph from one of the links you gave - "Finally, there are any number of different kinds of travelers who may have special needs -- senior travelers, travelers with children, disabled travelers, etc. Having different sections for each would make the destination pages unnecessarily cluttered, and would probably cause some duplicate information.".
The Wiki, I thought was to make as much information as possible available to as many people as possible.
The script that makes a Wiki possible leaves the options open to create simple links to info for gay, disabled, single female etc travelers. So why not? :)
Rather than make a page "unnecessarily cluttered", its making more info more relevant to more people - --Damian 22:59, 15 January 2007 (EST)
What info do you think is lacking? Only things that are exclusive to a particular country should go on that country (or city) page, everything else can go in one of the pages that Colin mentions above. Beyond specific safety info that is specific to that destination and isn't just common sense, and the occasional hoppin' gay bar listed in the drink section, what else is specific to g&l's that doesn't apply to everyone else? Cacahuate 23:55, 15 January 2007 (EST)
I am not sure what you are saying? - "Only things that are exclusive to a particular country should go on that country (or city) page"
That seems very odd. Every Country, City or Region has a template that makes sure there is info that is consistent with the site as a whole. Thats very noble - but I am also gay, unfit and my partner is/was in a wheelchair. Maybe you cant cover all those scenarios on one page, but why restrict WikiTravel to just 'able bodied 18-30 heterosexuals'?. I would have thought that the whole concept of a Wiki demands that all persons have a say in its production.
Again - the alternative is a Wiki for Gay travelers, disabled travelers, single females etc etc - the format is available here on 'WikTravel' for all of that to be covered - its just a simple link. Its such a simple thing to do - who here doesn't know what the rights of a disabled traveler to your city center is? You can share that info or not.
Yes, nobody's arguing with anything you just said. Maybe I was just being overly helpful in trying to point out to put 'general' info about GLBT travel into the Gay and lesbian travel topic page, and info that is specific to a certain destination on that page.
Regarding your above comment about the comment about cluttering up pages with all of those sections, if there's something very relevant for one of those groups then list it in the appropriate place on the page. The policy is simply saying not to create an entire section in an article for one of those groups. For instance, in Sudan you can be executed for homosexuality, so that's something you would want to mention in the "stay safe" section on the Sudan page. West Hollywood may have a hotel that is "gay friendly", so if that's relevant then mention that in the hotel's description, but there's no need to create a whole section of "gay friendly hotels", since heterosexuals likely stay at those hotels too.
But enough talking in generalizations, add some stuff you think is relevant, and if anyone disagrees or things it belongs in another place then we can talk about a solution then! :) | Cacahuate 05:20, 16 January 2007 (EST)
Our policy for information for gay and lesbian travellers is that we want to have such information included in the main guide articles for a place, not spread out over several different articles. There are a lot of reasons: firstly, about 98% of what gay and lesbian travellers are going to do, they'll do the same as anyone else (go through customs, ride the metro, see the museums). There would be a lot of unnecessary duplication and redundancy if we had separate guides for gays and lesbians. Second, it's very easy to tag bars, restaurants, and hotels as gay-friendly, without separating them into a different section or guide. Most such establishments will also cater to other people, too. Thirdly, wiki works best when everyone is working on the same article -- not working on umpteen little personal articles.
That all said, I think that if there's some location that has so much information specific to one particular sub-group of travellers (travellers with children, senior travellers, disabled travellers, gay and lesbian travellers, women travellers) that it overwhelms the "general" destination guide with information that may not be useful at all to travellers not in that group, we may want to consider moving that info to a separate travel topic. We already do it with fields of pursuit, like Literary London and Off-road vehicles in California. I think we'd have to be careful to keep information synched with the main destination guide, however. --evanp 08:46, 16 January 2007 (EST)
LOL - and I'm off..... "How to p#s$ off the natives in one ez lesson" :)
I will leave the whole L&G thing for another day - I have spent most of my life in New Zealand so perhaps my time would be better spent at least starting the stubs for some of the amazing places we have down their :) Looking forward and beyond - Damian