From Wikitravel

Some things that have moved:

• Archived External links discussions → Wikitravel talk:External links/Archive
• Audio guides → Wikitravel talk:External links/Audio guides
• Hidden links → Wikitravel talk:External links/Hidden links
• Links in listings → Wikitravel talk:External links/Links in listings
• What to link to → Wikitravel talk:External links/What to link to

[edit] linking policy

The policy of not linking to local culture, news sites and blogs is a real disservice to wikitravel visitors. Locally-written sites help a visitor know and understand a city better than wikitravel or any travel guide ever could. This policy is extremely self-defeating. It also will discourage local sites from seeing wikitravel as a partner. The internet is all about interconnection and this policy is an anti-social one that serves only to pointlessly isolate wikitravel from the wider community. What is the process of having this policy changed? [re: zgberlin.com] --85.178.16.181 12:11, 29 January 2007 (EST)

The process for changing the policy is to discuss your opinion and to try to build a consensus that the policy should be changed. I don't think there is any disagreement that there are lots of good sites out there that would be useful to travelers, but it will be an uphill battle to change the current policy for a few reasons:

1. We don't want our guides to simply be link farms for every web site out there with a remote connection to a travel-related service. This is a huge issue, and we need a clear guideline that allow us to police links easily.

the policy is simple: "If I was traveling to Berlin (or any other place) might I be happy to have this link? Wanting something simpler than that is unrealistic and a cop-out. This wiki is human edited, not machine edited. The ability to distinguish fuzzy categories is among the things that distinguish humans from machines.--85.178.2.208 14:56, 29 January 2007 (EST)

1. It is very difficult to determine what is a "good" site vs. what is junk. As a result we've implemented the "primary site only" policy, which makes it crystal clear what sites are appropriate. It is not realistic to expect editors to extensively research every web site to verify its quality, so we simply state that if a site is not the official site of a hotel, museum, restaurant, etc then it should not be included in the guide.

how is this different for a news site vs. a hotel site, the hotel, museum, restaurant, etc could be bad too, or even fictitious, how are online sites of interest to travellers different or somehow more work to manage for quality? --85.178.2.208 14:56, 29 January 2007 (EST)

1. There is also an incentive issue. We don't want to allow links to other sites at the expense of including content within Wikitravel.

I agree with this, but news sites and blogs are time-based dynamic content, wikitravel is evergreen data, they serve different purposes. Wikitravel can not give a personal impression of a city and what goes on there like a blog can. --85.178.2.208 14:56, 29 January 2007 (EST)

Please read the other discussions on this page, and if you have a suggestion of how the policy can be changed and still address the three points above please let us know. -- Ryan 12:27, 29 January 2007 (EST)

The policy should be same as the rest of the information on the page, if it is usefull to travellers it should be kept, "no reason, just policy" is an incredibly short-sighted reason to alienate the community news sites and the blogger communities, who could and would contribute to the success of wikitravel. --85.178.2.208 14:56, 29 January 2007 (EST)

There are hundreds of sites on the Web for aggregating lists of Web sites located in or related to a particular place. We have links to one such project, the Open Directory, as a service to readers. Aside from that, direct links to the sites and services we describe in our guides makes sense. Roaming further afield in our guides doesn't. --Evan 13:45, 29 January 2007 (EST)

Another cop-out. Might as well say they could just google it. Check this link: http://search.dmoz.org/cgi-bin/search?search=berlin] Can you honestly claim that serves any useful purposes at all? Please let me know how many clicks it took you to find even 1 interesting news item or blog entry from or about Berlin? --85.178.2.208 14:56, 29 January 2007 (EST)

1. The correct link is [1] (which is on the Berlin page).

equally useless, please provide the click count I asked for to demonstrate the point. --85.178.2.208 15:39, 29 January 2007 (EST)

2. Right on the page is Cityvox Berlin, which looks sorta interesting.

sorry, I failed to see any news items or blogs on that site. Just a commercial listings site. I am talking about local community news sites and local blogs about the city. Sites that give you local flavour, that is exactly what I look for when I travel. --85.178.2.208 15:39, 29 January 2007 (EST)

3. To the extent that the dmoz links are uninteresting, it shows why we don't want to start collecting that sort of thing here. -- Jonboy 15:23, 29 January 2007 (EST)

It is exactly a lack of human editing for context that makes them uninteresting.--85.178.2.208 15:39, 29 January 2007 (EST)

You are wrong -- dmoz is edited by humans. That's why we're pointing at it: if they are "uninteresting" when their entire purpose is to make a human edited directory, imagine how much more poorly we will do the same job when our main purpose is to write a travel guide! -- Colin 16:35, 29 January 2007 (EST)

Sorry Colin if my comment was unclear, the key words are for context, dmoz categories are much broader than wikitravel articles, making it far more difficult to manage and entirely unlikely that they may produce a handy set of links for local community news sites and local blogs to match a particular wikitravel article, since that is not their goal.--212.91.238.97 04:07, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Policy Suggestions: 1. Only allow external links to sites which publish content under a compatible "share alike" license. 2. Have a maximum number so that after a certain number of sites is reached consensus is needed to replace one if a new one is recommended. 3. Perhaps have a link-back policy, only allowing links to site that link to wiktravel 4. Of course, the primary language of the site should match the page it is being linked from.

IMO, The above rules would be manageable and would eliminate pretty much all overtly commercial, bad or spammy content. --85.178.2.208 15:39, 29 January 2007 (EST)

85.178.2.208, I would second your ideas in theory--but it's even better if you have a number of news sources/blogs that, in your belief, complements wikitravel content in a proper way. Maybe having several examples in hand would make your suggestions even more convincing? --DenisYurkin 16:04, 29 January 2007 (EST)

http://www.zgberlin.com is the one in specific that I though would compliment the Berlin article, as I am involved with the project I know that the site is intended to be useful and interesting for those who are interested in visiting Berlin, as for others I might recommend a few of these: http://www.ethanlindsey.com/blog/, http://hermann.blog.com/, http://raskal.typepad.com, http://bowleserised.blogspot.com/, etc, these are the sorts of sites that I look for when I travel, finding hotels is easy, they advertise and have conspicuous signs, finding a place to eat is not so hard either, getting a feel for the flavour, tone and goings on in a city from an insider is far more difficult and interesting. --212.91.238.97 04:07, 30 January 2007 (EST)

85.178.2.208 and 212.91.238.97 is now: --Tricknik 04:12, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Reading through the different here's my suggestion:

1. As the internet is becoming a handy tool even while travelling one could consider certain blogs and personal pages as information sites like a physical existing tourist information. Thus such a blog's URL would be primary in the sense of hotels, museums, etc.

2. as WikiTravel is meant to be unbiased these external pages would be adding to the idea and information WikiTravel caters without breaking the rules on the page.

3. in return the bloggers (supposed to be locals) could add unbiased info to WikiTravel, which is one of the main rules anyway (don't make rivals, make friends). A certain special area would be needed, maybe even added to the templates like: Locals, what locals say - whatever..

4. The external link to the blog then could be in the sense "more of my local opinion"

5. the link back then could be in the sense "more general information about..."

All I am saying is - it's not either that or this, but something in the middle. But like advertisement in newspapers, these local opinions should be separate and not confused with general information in the "TravelGuide".

And for all those PageRankers you just invent a special format or make it a rule, that a NO-FOLLOW tag must be used..

have fun

SonarTom 13:15, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

I like the idea of "opinion from real people's blogs" criteria, linking in return, showing it in special section and NO-FOLLOW (is it really pagerank-neutral?).

One question is to define criteria for that "opinion from real people's blogs". I don't think it should be from locals, BTW--as we're focusing on traveller's point of view (resident's point may be quite different for variety of reasons). --DenisYurkin 14:09, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Just a quick note to say that even when nofollow is enabled for external links it unfortunately doesn't usually have any effect on people adding links; most of the time people just want advertising for their site, and nofollow-or-not, having a lot of links out there accomplishes that goal. At the moment while blog links aren't allowed in articles it's generally considered OK to add them to talk pages, and Wikitravel Extra will allow a place for recording personal experiences.

Regarding any attempts to change external links policy, it's been stated repeatedly elsewhere, but any new external links policy must be totally obvious, and there hasn't really been a suggestion that meets that requirement. By "totally obvious" I mean:

1. There CAN NOT be ambiguity about what is OK and what is not.
2. It must be EASY for someone who is unfamiliar with the link or destination to patrol, since it's not reasonable to wait for someone from Jaboo to come along and say whether or not jaboo-nightlife.com meets a guideline. Similarly, if an article has fifty blog links there needs to be some way to determine when a personal blog by someone living in Jaboo is inappropriate.

The present guideline is overly restrictive, but it meets the "totally obvious" criteria. Until someone comes up with a new guideline that allows additional sites and still meets those criteria I don't see that changing the current policy would be a good thing. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:24, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

I think that we've done a pretty decent job of expanding space by adding a shared bookmark feature to Wikitravel Extra. That means we have a place for photo albums, blog entries, newspaper articles, and all that other stuff. It won't be there when you print out an article to take with you, but that's really a good thing. --Evan 16:16, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Maps

Should links to maps be allowed?

See also Mapmaking_Expedition

As long as there are none in Wikitravel itself, yes. Good maps, and route planners are sometimes hard to find. For instance, it´s not obvious that map24's route planner for Brazil is also valid for the whole of South America. These kind of facts are very useful for travellers. I think in general, these rules are too focused on rules. The question should first be "is this useful information for travellers?", which is a bit vague of course... Guaka (not capable of locating tildes)

No -- this is one of those things where we're supposed to be self-contained, and like the "don't extlink other guides" rule, we ought not lean on outside content while waiting for our own content to happen. -- Colin 02:33, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Wikitravel cannot ever hope to complete with pro-grade searchable map sites like [2] or [3], and links to these should be allowed. I do agree that ordinary "flat" maps can be ruled out. Jpatokal 02:39, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

I'm curious as to why the ban on links to "map services" in the first place. Sure, you want a printable guide, but you can get *far* more information with, say, Google Maps than you could ever capture into a single picture or a group of pictures.

For example:

• Getting directions from where you are going to be
• Finding obscure locations
• Huge amounts of detail that could never be captured by a reasonable sized map (for example, zoom in on Tokyo and scroll around)

In the case I've dealt with, for Japan, there's a huge list of campsites in Japan available (http://www.campjo.com/Campjo_AllList.asp). We're talking almost a thousand campsites. There's no way that these are all going to get their own page on here. Probably no more than a few will ever get their own page; perhaps a handful will have directions to them mentioned. Yet, knowing where campsites are is critical to backpacking in Japan.

By not allowing map links, we're, in short, making it more difficult for users to figure out where they're going. With Google Maps, they can paste the campsite addresses into the map and figure out where they are -- even figure out what bus stops they're near or how to get directions to them from a different location. It'd be a very helpful link to put alongside the campjo link, but it's currently not allowed. Sure, it wouldn't come up in printing -- but that's no reason not to add something helpful for those who could use it.

I see no good reason to force the handicapping of readers. Just my two cents. -- 70.57.222.103 22:24, 23 June 2006 (EDT)

It's not a question of handicapping anyone; they're just as able to consult online mapping sites as they are now. We just aren't hand-holding anyone, by pointing them there. The reason is based more on the fear of limiting Wikitravel: linking to Googlexpedia for a map is (fundamentally) no different from linking to Rough Planet for accommodation listings. Sure, that'd be a handy shortcut, and it would useful to the (online) reader in the near term, but it would effectively stifle the motivation to produce our own accommodation listings, which we could distribute offline. Same with maps: a free-as-in-speech map is better than a free-as-in-beer map. (analogy explained) I'm not dogmatic about that preference (and I realize how daunting a task it is to produce maps for these articles), but if we're going to link to external maps, that has to go hand-in-hand with a decision to mothball the Wikitravel:Mapmaking Expedition. - Todd VerBeek 19:02, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

I'd like to bump back this discussion, especially in light of IB's new ideas over at Shared. While I agree that external links to mapping services for individual listings are bad for the reasons listed above, the Get around section should list the one (1) best interactive mapping service for the place. For example, Helsinki has a great online map run by the city itself [4], and Singapore's Streetdirectory.com [5] whups the butt of the competition. The "evil competition" argument just doesn't fly with me here: the Mapmaking Expedition's goal is to produce tourist maps, not massive searchable online databases of every single residential street in the city, and Helsinki and Singapore both already have WT maps, making the argument doubly moot. Jpatokal 23:42, 18 September 2007 (EDT)

I think it's clear that there are a lot of external links out there that would be useful, but we don't have any way to easily figure out where we draw the line between useful and not-useful. I don't think there's any way we can create a clear set of guidelines for that situation that is less stringent then the current "primary links only" guideline. The only alternative I can think of is some sort of external link nominations page. That would be a lot of overhead for something as simple as an external link, but it would at least give us a way to deal with some of these "hugely useful but non-primary" cases that come up.

If that idea is something people support I'd suggest we come up with criteria for what should make it through a nomination process. First thoughts are that a link should provide a service that is out-of-scope for Wikitravel (and WikiExtra/Wikipedia), something that provides an obvious service or benefit to travelers, and something that at least three Wikitravelers support with no unaddressed objections. There should be more - those are just some ideas. In addition, I'd suggest some sort of template to use when including these links so that we can easily track what's gone through the nomination process - something like {{extlink|url|text|pointer-to-nomination}}. That's a LOT of overhead for a simple external link, but it would also keep the barrier for entry for external links high while keeping patrolling easy. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:27, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

Jani, can you propose an alternative policy for us to evaluate? I presume you want something that allows Streetdirectory.com (since you reverted my removal of it), but do you want this sort of edit? I'm generally pretty hard-line on external links, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. --Jonboy 18:14, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

Frankly, at this stage, I'm beyond caring how we approve the extlinks, as long as it's done. I've previously suggested just allowing one of each for maps, restaurant guides and nightlife guides, but Ryan's style would be more flexible in the long run and easier to monitor. I'd cut down the "votes" needed to two though. Jpatokal 23:05, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

If we go with a nomination process here are some criteria that might be useful:

• External link must provide a service that is out-of-scope for Wikitravel, Wikipedia, and WikiExtra. That means no links to personal travelogues, photo galleries, or travel guides. Sites that might be OK include online event calendars, location-specific booking engines such as Expedia or hotels.com, Jani's interactive map example, or something like the "how to get your money back in the case of getting duped in a gem scam" site that is referenced elsewhere on this page.
• The site must provide an obvious benefit to travelers. If there is any question as to how the site would be useful to the average traveler, it should not be listed.
• At least two Wikitravel users must support the nomination, with no unresolved objections. In the case of objections, consensus determines whether the link is appropriate or not.
• Webmasters should not list their own sites. If a site is useful for travel then users of that site will eventually nominate it, and this helps prevent Wikitravel from being used for advertising. This one is a guideline that would be impossible to enforce, but it's probably worth stating just to make it clear that Wikitravel isn't an opportunity for webmasters to improve page rank.
• Nominations must be listed for at least one week before the link should be added to an article.
• Once approved the nomination should be archived, and the link can be added to an article using a template that contains the link, the link text, and a pointer to the nomination. That will make patrolling easy.
• Removing a link would be the same process in reverse: consensus to remove, with a minimum one week waiting period.
• I'd suggest the nomination page be named something like "Wikitravel:External link nominations". Having a single page will make this easier to manage.
• Links should be nominated for addition to ONE article. Just as an attraction is listed in only one place, an external link does not need to appear in numerous articles.

That's a ton of red-tape for approving something as simple as a URL. I'm not hugely excited about the idea, but if it addresses some of the concerns with the current policy then it may be worth the hassle. Thoughts, additions, flames, other? -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:42, 20 September 2007 (EDT)

I support the overall idea and Wrh2 nomination process, with only exception:

 :Webmasters should not list their own sites.

Beyond non-enforceable, we should also welcome useful links regardless of their initiator. If there's anything wrong with the link, the rest of the procedure will prevent it from appearing. If a better link appear for the same purpose, it will quickly remove the previous one. The only problem is to have enough eye pairs to expect objections--what about requiring that article should be at least Usable status? --DenisYurkin 03:56, 20 September 2007 (EDT)

OK, now that I've trimmed this page down to size so I can *find* this discussion again...

Is "WikiExtra"="Wikitravel Extra"?

I generally oppose the idea, but I am sympathetic to the desire to try this out.

If we're going to go forward with this, could we test it out on a subset of Wikitravel first? E.g., Mid-Atlantic or Western Europe, so that it's easier to roll back if it turns out poorly? --Jonboy 11:18, 20 September 2007 (EDT)

I'm generally opposed to the idea as well, but would suggest a longer comment period if it goes forward--say two weeks. Also a requiement of 3 people supporting. OldPine 16:14, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

I was about to make my first contribution to the site. I'd bumped into your Martha's Vineyard page and thought that the list of lighthouses, while informative, was significantly unhelpful in that it didn't provide any guide on how to find them. Being a frequent traveler to MV I thought I'd slap a few quick links to Google Maps to show the location. But it seems that that is a no-no on wikitravel. The only alternatives I see are either to provide street addresses (which I don't know and may not even exist for lighthouses) or maybe some sort of hand drawn map? After thinking on the objections to external map links, I'll throw out an idea. What about allowing geo-location tags? One could then associate lat/lon coordinates to objects on the site and then wikitravel can decide on how/where to link to maps. I think wikipedia has something like this. --Kyrrigle 11:21, 22 January 2008 (EST) OK, so I just noted the "Geo: {{geo|lat|long}}" markup and tried it out but it doesn't seem to do anything?? --Kyrrigle 12:27, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Welcome! I'm not an expert on the geo things yet, but I believe the template you referred to above is only for the whole city... it places the geo coords in the "toolbox" in the left navigation bar, check out the Singapore page for an example. If I'm not mistaken there's a way to add individual coordinates for a place within a city using our handy listing tags such as:

* <see name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="" hours="" price=""></see>

But, a field needs to be added, and I'm not sure what it's called exactly or where to stick... can anyone else help out with that? – cacahuate ^talk 00:28, 23 January 2008 (EST)

I am not all that experienced a contributor on Wikitravel as to fully understand all the above reasoning, but I have a very specific case of links to external maps: I live in Fortaleza, and also do a lot of editing on its article on Wikitravel. Since I couldn't find any good maps covering the city's public transport on the internet, I drew a few of my own on Google maps, -for my own personal use, -and then added links on Wikitravel. As far as I understand the policy, such links would be perfectly ok if they directed to primary sources, e.g. the city's public transport authority. In this case, there is no primary source. Still, I think the maps are obviously useful. Could we not allow these links when a primary source lacks? Mariusm98 23:04, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

Mariusm98, thank you for your efforts in Wikitravel. If and when I visit Fortaleza, I'm sure I will be very grateful for the information you've put there. You make a good point about it being helpful to have access to a user-created map. But remember, that we want to make Wikitravel useable by a variety of people in a variety of circumstances. One case is the traveller who prints out the Wikitravel article and travels with the paper copy. They won't be able to use links to maps! So the best thing is for you to transfer your information from the Google map to a free-content map, and upload it to Wikitravel Shared. Then everybody will be able to use the map freely, including all the language versions of Wikitravel. Does this make the policy clearer? JimDeLaHunt 00:44, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

[edit] deletion of last "External links" sections

I just deleted the sentence "Although some older articles still have an external links section, these sections are currently being removed" because (as far as I can tell) there are now only 4 such articles left:

• Cheap airline travel in North America - Todd VerBeek 16:58, 18 July 2006 (EDT)
• Discount airlines in Australasia - deleted (12 August 2006)
• Buying or renting a car in Australia - the last "External links" section heading, removed 28 April 2007
• Renting a motorhome in New Zealand - moved into other sections (12 August 2006)

plus

• Aberystwyth - moved to Talk:Aberystwyth (22 July 2006)
• Driving in Australia - moved most into other sections, deleted remainder (12 August 2006)
• Electronics and entertainment shopping in Thailand - moved into other sections (12 August 2006)
• Hitchhiking in Europe
• Leuven - moved to Talk:Leuven (22 July 2006)
• Orkney Islands - moved to Talk:Orkney Islands (22 July 2006)

~ 125.24.3.14 16:18, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Vacation Travel Guides Content Approval

Archived from the Pub:

My question to you guys, is that we would like to provide this content to WikiTravel if we could post a link back to the original source. What do you think?

Below are some examples so you see: (forget everything at the bottom of the guide, that’s something I added on, so just look at the main content excluding the bottom links they do not go with it)

vlbo.com/maui_vacation_rentals.cgi View Maui Vacation Travel Guide

vlbo.com/key_west_vacation_rentals.cgi View Key West Vacation Travel Guide

vlbo.com/kissimmee_vacation_rentals.cgi View Kissimmee Vacation Travel Guide

vlbo.com/gatlinburg_vacation_rentals.cgi View Gatlinburg Vacation Travel Guide

vlbo.com/hawaii_vacation_rentals.cgi View Hawaii Vacation Travel Guide

What do you think of these and do you think we could essentially contribute these and a lot more to WikiTravel? I am not completely familiar with WikiTravel and I didn’t mean to bug you but would rather contact you as I see you edit information then just spam the wiki page for each city asking for help.

Please get back with me or forward me to the correct location and how to submit.

Thanks and have a great day!

The above is from User:Richhoward and his user page covers the licensing issues. I think we should try to work out how to use these contributions, but there are problems in relation to policies like Wikitravel:Don't_tout and Wikitravel:External_links. Pashley 09:53, 14 November 2006 (EST)

No other comment, and no contributions from the user, in some months. Can someone who knows Hawaii take a look and work out if there's valuable stuff there? Mostly advertising, but some of it might be worth taking or linking to. Pashley 23:39, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

The problem is that form of attribution he's requesting doesn't fit with the ex-links policy. He gets a gold star for being a nice guy by asking rather than spamming, and even though the statement on his user page technically authorizes us to start copy-pasting and attributing the source only in the edit summaries (i.e. no links), I don't think we should. - Todd VerBeek 09:38, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] External links

swept in from the pub

Hi Ryan so I cand post only pages for south america, i Post the chat becouse I see people posting it also so i figueroa i do it. Thank you Giovanna I don't knnow How to send messages on here" Sorry

Please feel free to create or edit pages for any city in South America or anywhere else, but you may want to read Wikitravel:What is an article? first to understand what topics normally get their own articles. In addition, Wikitravel:External links has guidelines about what types of sites we normally link to - a short summary is that we discourage external links unless it is to the official site for a hotel, museum, or other primary source that is in an article. Thanks for contributing! -- Ryan 21:29, 18 November 2006 (EST)

[edit] links to current exchange rates

We have the following piece for checking exchange rates in Egypt:

Online rate check: USD | GBP | EUR | AUD | NZD | CAD | JPY | INR |

I wonder whether it complies to ExtLinks policy, or maybe should be just removed? --DenisYurkin 17:25, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Sounds like it doesn't comply. If necessary, we can give an approximate exchange rate in the text. If someone's off-line, it's more useful than the links. If they're on-line, they can just Google the exact rates fairly easily. --Jonboy 18:26, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

No! I pretty much agree with what Jonboy said, though I'd really like to see my tech request become implemented to solve part of the problem. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 21:08, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I'd possibly support something that actually shows the current rate/cost, but not in the form that is shown above... I've come across that recently on a few pages... they should probably go... Sapphire, I think your tech request has potential, but that's not my area of expertise... looking forward to how it develops though... – cacahuate ^talk 01:05, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

I generally just add a link to the central or reserve bank of the country in question. It is generally (except maybe in the case of Zimbabwe) the best source for the current official exchange rate.

[edit] Google Transit

For areas where the public transit is serviced by Google Transit, is a link to that kosher? --Improv 13:30, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

We typically just don't lean on external services like that. --Evan 15:00, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Guide services

Is it appropriate to link to guide services? I don't mean online travel guides that compete with Wikitravel but websites of people that work as travel guides. If it is appropriate, where should such links go? To exactly understand what I am talking about, take a look at article Lucerne. Tristram Shandy 13:23, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

This is a bit of a gray area, as are travel agencies in general. I'd be tempted to say they are OK, because a good guide/agency can be invaluable, but it's a definite slippery slope because most larger cities have hundreds and it's difficult to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Jpatokal 13:31, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Use short readable links - tinyurl.com

As a Newbie who's made a few mistakes with external links (hey, I have to learn somehow!), I have been directed to the External links part of the MoS.

One of the sub-sections here states that we should try to use short readable links wherever possible. Something that may help here and that people may not be aware of is a site called http://tinyurl.com. Baiscally it provides a shortened version of any url entered (for example, the url http://tinyurl.com/3b4ykj links to http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel_talk:External_links, i.e., reducing a 55 character link to one of 25 characters). The longer the original website page is, the better value the tinyurl link would be.

Are these links allowed? I think they'd be very useful, particularly if a traveller prints off the guide, but then wishes to check out a website. Any thoughts? --The.Q 10:09, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

P.S. Just to point out, I'm not in any way affiliated to tinyurl, but I do use the service, and find it very handy.

--The.Q 10:09, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

I believe that "short, readable links" is meant as a way to tell people to use http://www.example.com instead of http://www.example.com/somedirectory/someurl.html. Using tinyurl would make it more difficult to police links to make sure that they actually go to the official site of the place in question - currently I can tell that http://disneyworld.com/ is likely the official site for Disney World without clicking on the link, but I couldn't do the same with an article filled with http://tinyurl/12345 links. The idea is good, but the implementation would likely end up being more work for those patrolling articles. -- Ryan • (talk) • 11:36, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] WorldFlicks [6]

Please see the discussion at User talk:RonaldR regarding links to this service. Due to my sense of fairness (and well-known wishy-washyness), I'm soliciting comment on external links to this before it becomes an edit war. OldPine 06:43, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

I don't think links to WorldFlicks are appropriate. It's a nifty idea, but it's not an official site for anything, nor is there much to distinguish it from a link to my image gallery or Flickr itself. Jpatokal 07:37, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

I agree. Best wishes to the people who run the site, but Flickr "selected by millions of users" is still Flickr. Gorilla Jones 11:02, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Wikipedia "Different subject" links

Can anyone provide an example of an acceptable Wikitravel:Links to Wikipedia#Different subject link? - ie one that does not conflict with Wikitravel:External links#What not to link to? ~ 203.147.0.48 04:15, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

The only thing I can think of is linking to articles about the Wiki-Wiki web and how it works, and then only from the Wikitravel namespace. -- Mark 04:26, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

OK, lets revise that slightly - as before, but acceptable in a "Main namespace" article? ~ 203.147.0.48 04:32, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

In that case I can't think of a reason to do it. Remember these guides are meant to work when printed out on paper. Each guide should have a single interwiki link to the cooresponding Wikipedia article, and that's plenty, since the Wikipedia article will have lots of links going off to different things. If you want to add encyclopeadic information about a destination then that should probably go there, in Wikipedia. -- Mark 05:32, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

Ah, now I see why you're asking. You're helping us get the policy page wording right. Thanks! -- Mark 05:36, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

I can think of a reason. Here's a paragraph from our Quanzhou article:

There's an enormous equestrian statue of Koxinga (鄭成功, Zhèng Chénggōng) that appears to be guarding the town, up on a hill. He was a local boy whose family were seafarers, merchants trading with Japan, and pirates. On land, he became a general, resisting the then-new Qing (Manchu) dynasty. His base on Xiamen's Gulang Yu is one of the tourist sites there. He is best known for driving the Dutch out of Taiwan in the 1660s; the first major wave of Chinese immigration to Taiwan was his soldiers settling down and bringing their families. He is one of the few people seen as a hero by the current governments on both sides of the straights; beating the foreign devils makes you a good guy in everyone's books.

Wikipedia has an article on him. When I wrote the above text, I chose not to link to it; I think our text covers all a traveller needs to know and if someone wants more they can do a web search. However, this is a case where I think there's an argument for going the other way; it would not be wrong to add the link.

There are other cases. For example in a city article that covers a specialised museum it might be appropriate to add a link for dinosaurs or Van Gogh or whatever; some travellers might want the background. Pashley 04:39, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

I don't think I'd be comfortable starting down that slope. If we say it's okay to link to Wikipedia in article text, we risk getting inundated with links because someone "might want the background" on any number of topics. That not only affects the appearance of our articles, but it also encourages users to leave the Wikitravel site via these external links. LtPowers 09:13, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

[edit] wedding agencies

How do we deal with wedding agencies, and others "special occasion" travel agencies, like [mentioned in Santorini]? Is it just the same as any other external link to a booking agency, or someone sees a reason to keep them? (personally, I don't) --DenisYurkin 15:36, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

I can see how an exception might be made for a place that is an internationally famous place to get married, like Las Vegas, but otherwise I'd say kill it. The percentage of wikitravellers for whom that listing would be useful is bound to be extremely low, and no one should expect to find wedding planners for every destination in a travel guide. When people post chamber of commerce info about available venues for planning a massive seminar or conference, I delete it for the same reason. Texugo 20:35, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

I don't think evan Vegas should list wedding agencies or planners. Chapels and other places that actually perform weddings, though, are OK. Jpatokal 23:24, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, I removed links to wedding agencies from Santorini. --DenisYurkin 17:10, 12 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Condo booking sites

Do we allow these? Refer specifically to Breckenridge (Colorado). If they also listed restaurants, I'd revert them without asking, but what if they do not? OldPine 15:55, 5 October 2007 (EDT)

See Wikitravel:Accommodation listings#Apartment listings ~ 202.79.25.170 06:44, 6 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] further reading / movies on destination / music from destination

Please join the discussion in Wikitravel talk:Where you can stick it#BUMP recommended media. --DenisYurkin 02:55, 8 January 2008 (EST)

I'll join that discussion, but want to quickly note here that I don't think that external references are appropriate for these categories. --Peter ^Talk 03:24, 8 January 2008 (EST)

[edit] Official links at the beginning of articles

Where there's one official website for a region, and an official website that's linked to from the very top of the region article, should that same official link be placed at the head of each article for each place in the region?

Example - region: Collier County & official website: http://www.paradisecoast.com

Do we also want to link to http://www.paradisecoast.com from the top of Everglades City, Marco Island, and Naples (Florida)? ~ 203.144.143.4 15:08, 9 January 2008 (EST)

I think we should only link subregions to dedicated pages for that subregion. So if there was a paradisecoast.com/Naples, that would be allowable, but otherwise multiple links to the same website across many pages seems too spammy to me. --Peter ^Talk 15:18, 9 January 2008 (EST)

I don't see why not. If the purpose of allowing official sites is to provide the traveler with an official list of things to do, places to stay and eat, etc., then the link should be included in the sub-region as well - if no official sub-region site exists. A wikitravel user may not think about looking at the region article for an official link. --Wandering 16:07, 9 January 2008 (EST)

[edit] Employment agencies

I suspect that employment agencies are valid candidates for the What not to link to list - anyone disagree? ~ 203.144.143.4 04:38, 22 January 2008 (EST)

BUMP & last call for any objections to employment agencies being added to the What not to link to list. ~ 203.144.143.4 07:50, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I'd say that in articles like Teaching English or Working abroad that are specifically about work, links to job search sites are OK. I would not link to recruiters, but others may not share my bias there; we can debate that when it comes up. Pashley 01:15, 25 January 2008 (EST)

I was tempted just to go ahead and specify those two as exceptions, but I can't help but feel that maybe Working abroad has too broad a scope for it to be practicable to permit employment agency links there. ~ 203.144.143.4 01:33, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Suppose I added this to the list:

• Employment agencies and job search websites (with two exceptions: see here & here for details)

And then guidelines on what is and isn't acceptable for those two specific "special case" articles can be addressed on their respective Talk pages? ~ 203.144.143.4 07:25, 25 January 2008 (EST)

So if there are no objections, I propose to action the above suggestion tomorrow. ~ 203.144.143.4 05:27, 29 January 2008 (EST)

I do object: narrowly-focused employment agencies are a useful primary resource and outside Wikitravel's scope. For example, Finland points to the official Ministry of Labour work-hunting site and lists several major temp-staffing agencies that hire foreigners. So IMHO relevant, best-of-breed sites can and should stay in countries' Work sections. Jpatokal 05:57, 29 January 2008 (EST)

How about this then:

• Employment agencies and job search websites (with three exceptions - 1: the Work section in country articles; 2: the Jobs available section of the Working abroad article; 3: the Looking for work section of the Teaching English article).

Is that acceptable to everyone? ~ 203.144.143.4 09:49, 29 January 2008 (EST)

BUMP & another last call for any objections to the re-revised proposal (the "with three exceptions" version) being added to the What not to link to list. ~ 203.144.143.4 11:31, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Seems to me that the work section exception could lead to very long lists! A quick search reveals upward of 2000 agencies in New York City alone. My suggestion is drop the Work exception. Relevance is kind of hard because it is so job specific (Polish plumbers and Indian IT guys will want different agencies) and wikitravel is not a job search yellow pages substitute. --Wandering 13:11, 31 January 2008 (EST)

[edit] rating of traditional airlines

Moved in from the Pub.

I am considering to create a "rating of service quality" article for traditional (i.e. non-discount) airlines.

The aim is to help to choose between competing flights basing on service level, not only on price. Anyone willing to join such initiative? Does it sound potentially helpful? And if so, where to stick it?

For me, it looks easiest to start with European carriers only. I know that Iberia, Alitalia, Aeroflot and Olympic tend to be in the end of the list, while Austrian, Lufthansa, SAS and Swiss are closer to the top. --DenisYurkin 19:08, 11 January 2008 (EST)

There is already a web site devoted to this, which I find is very good. Have a look at www.airlinequality.com. Davidbstanley 03:44, 12 January 2008 (EST)

Can we link to it from either Fundamentals of flying or Tips for flying? It's very close to being a secondary source; however it's next to impossible to do all the same job in here at Wikitravel. --DenisYurkin 07:25, 26 January 2008 (EST)

BUMP. --DenisYurkin 04:39, 15 February 2008 (EST)

Sounds impossible to determine and maintain... I think it's a bit out of our scope, personally – cacahuate ^talk 21:39, 15 February 2008 (EST)

I agree that it's difficult to maintain, that is why I propose to linke to AirlineQuality.com from Fundamentals of flying. Any objections on adding the extlink? --DenisYurkin 02:31, 16 February 2008 (EST)

We should probably move this to Wikitravel talk:External links then... I'd say it pretty much conflicts with that policy don't you think? We don't allow links to nightlife reviews or hotel reviews... I don't really care much either way, but it does seem to conflict with the current consensus – cacahuate ^talk 13:06, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Eh, I don't like it as I think it is too much like the "guides" for which we specifically prohibit external links. Addition to the "flying" travel topics of a phrase which indicates such quality guides are available should suffice. --OldPine 14:58, 16 February 2008 (EST)

The main reason we prohibit "guides" is that we don't want direct a reader to an external resource for the content we are aiming to create and maintain here--assuming we're able to maintain such content. When we definitely can't, while we all believe an external site helps a reader, we do allow, don't we?

How airlinequality.com is different from airlinemeals.net or seatguru.com we already have in Fundamentals of flying? (and more in Tips for flying#Choosing a good seat) --DenisYurkin 16:41, 16 February 2008 (EST)

BUMP :-) --DenisYurkin 12:05, 5 March 2008 (EST)

I decided to plunge forward: [7]. --DenisYurkin 10:34, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Dennis, what are you wanting to do here? Add a link (or however many do this same sort of thing) to the articles at Fundamentals of flying or Tips for flying? If this is your aim, I'd support it, but I don't want it to creep into mainspace articles. OldPine 16:47, 5 March 2008 (EST)

Rating airlines based on experiences? Sounds like exactly the subjective sort of thing Wikitravel Extra is for. I'd druther not see it here. -- Colin 19:22, 16 February 2008 (EST)

How you see information like this can be practically (a) written, collected and organized at Extra, (b) used and retrieved by a reader? --DenisYurkin 03:04, 17 February 2008 (EST)

[edit] External links

I noticed that external links within articles all have only numbers. I have been changing the numbers to actual words, that make the article look nicer. Is this perferred, or is the preference to just leave numbers? Flowergirl 16:22, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

See Wikitravel:External links. The "[1]" format is actually the agreed-upon format. Wikitravel:Accommodation listings, Wikitravel:Restaurant listings and a few other pages also detail this guideline. Hope that helps! -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:48, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

Actually, the number thing was just kinda left there (it's a leftover from Wikipedia-style references, I think), IMHO it looks pretty terrible. Something like "web" would be much nicer -- but this should be handled programmatically by Mediawiki. Jpatokal 22:32, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

I agree... [web] or something would look nicer. I would propose the same for email. I've done so here – cacahuate ^talk 00:02, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

I'd like that, too. The escalating number-links are odd. Gorilla Jones 00:25, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

Another vote for [web] from me for listings; not sure it will fit links placed in the middle of regular text, though. --DenisYurkin 01:56, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

I would actually lean more towards using icons, if we do this. A flying envelope icon for mail is straightforward, although I admit I don't have a weblink icon in mind. --Peter ^Talk 02:04, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

I second the idea of using just an icon. What's wrong with the icon we already have that appears next to the number? Texugo 02:47, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

Absolutely nothing, I think that could work great. Should we move our discussion to Wikitravel_talk:Listings#web/email_format? --Peter ^Talk 17:26, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

YES, please continue to comment THERE – cacahuate ^talk 03:57, 13 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Travel aggregator-booker?- RedBus

Would people kindly check the edits of Special:Contributions/Kumar and provide an opinion? I let this go at first and now find myself wondering if the links 1)violate policy, 2)should be fewer in number and more regionally placed. See also my comment on his talk page. -- OldPine 10:57, 20 February 2008 (EST)

I'm never too sure about these sorts of links also. But for certain, the link should only be on the region/country page for which it is relevant, not on every sub-destination. --Peter ^Talk 00:23, 21 February 2008 (EST)

[edit] Links to educational and cultural programs for travelers

I put some links on the Greece page to the web sites of several schools offering Greek language instruction programs for English speakers. Since they typically offer programs designed for travelers to Greece who want to combine a vacation with language study, it seems like these would be useful and appropriate links, and I don't see such links excluded by the "What not to link to" guidelines. On the other hand, it's not specifically covered by the description of "primary sources". Maybe there could be a clarification: should web sites of educational programs designed for travelers -- language schools, cooking courses, ecological programs, and things like that -- specifically be listed as acceptable? It seems to me they should be at least as acceptable as links to hotels or restaurant web sites. Sailsetter 11:49, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

My feeling is that yes, as long as those are the people you'd contact if you wanted to sign up for the educational program. We want to avoid "guides to educational programs" or "travel agents specializing in educational programs". To me, however, this is no different than linking to the web site of a dive shop. --Jonboy 11:55, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes, the links I put are definitely links to the schools or programs themselves -- on some you can even print off applications there or sign up on line. Eventually if there's no objections I may change the external links guidelines to say such links are acceptable. I assume I can do this. Sailsetter 20:03, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

I think there are already OK under the "primary links" guideline, and you're free to amend the examples if you think it should be explicitly listed. Jpatokal 03:50, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

OK, I added a line there. Sailsetter 10:14, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Rule simplification

I actually didn't realize our link format policy was as convoluted as it is—that we proscribe footnote-style links within listings and for the first link on the page (i.e., in the vast majority of situations), but front-linked links for external links within prose that occurs outside of listings. I know there's a ton of discussion about which link formats people like, but can we agree to simplify this rule and just use the footnotes only, regardless of where they occur? That would shorten this article a good bit, and make it much more digestible. Objections? --Peter ^Talk 21:48, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

Do you mean use footnote links for all links, or just for all external links? The simplified policy should still specify exactly what sorts of links are used in all cases: external, internal to Wikitravel, crossreferences to Wikipedia, ... any others? Sailsetter 10:54, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes, just for all external links. This policy only covers external links—we have separate policy articles for internal links, and links to wikipedia. I've now tried to make this a bit more user-friendly by putting all the various link policy articles into the "see also" section of this one.

Now any objections to simplifying this policy & making the footnote-format rule categorical? --Peter ^Talk 14:17, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Ok, if I understand, the policy is: All external links, i.e. links to any URL not beginning with the Wikitravel URL or with another Wiki... project URL, must be footnote links (example: the British Museum [8],) period end of story no exceptions." If that's the policy I think it's a good one, and will assume that I can change any non-footnote external links to footnote ones if they're not. If I've got it wrong, someone please tell me. Sailsetter 16:04, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

I've added this discussion to Wikitravel:RFC. Let's wait a bit before rushing forward with this change. -- Colin 17:33, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

I'd really like to not stop there and reopen the discussion about getting rid of the numbering as well. We were on a good path here, but then it kinda got forgotten – cacahuate ^talk 21:22, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Footnote style for all external links sounds good to me. Among other things, it makes it easy for the reader so see if a link will take him out of WT --Nick 01:59, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

I agree with the proposed change. And the numbering thing could be easily fixed by hacking at the Mediawiki source code. Jpatokal 03:48, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Agree with making all external links to some consistent and compact notation. I prefer Cacahuate's suggestion of using something like "[link]", but would agree with footnote numbers like "[1]". JimDeLaHunt 16:01, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

A different possibility for consideration. If what's important is simplicity, consistency, and understandability, then maybe the best solution (ignoring for the moment programming and retrofitting considerations) would be to have only one sort of link, the text link. Wiki markup could be changed to make a link only out of the following string (e.g.): double begin bracket, URL, space, text, double end bracket. This would produce the text as a hyperlink to the URL, and this would be the only way of making any internal, cross-Wiki, or external link. The current facility for turning anything beginning with what looks like a URL into a native-html footnote link would be turned off. All links would then be highlighted text. Simple, consistent, easy to understand, and producing pages that look like most others on the internet. There would of course be programming and retrofitting considerations, and it would require a little more work on the part of contributors -- e.g. you'd have to code the internal links -- but maybe these problems aren't unsolveable. Sailsetter 10:20, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

I think this aims for the wrong simplicity and consistency, making understandability worse. We should focus primarily on our readers, secondarily on our contributors. I think it is important for understandability by readers that external links have a different appearance from internal-to-wikitravel links or links to partner sites like Wikipedia or Route66. Making all these classes of link look the same would be confusing. Also, the above proposal doesn't require any change to existing source text, it just changes how the formatter interprets that source. It's much different to propose changing source text, which is what I read in your proposal. Am I understanding you correctly? JimDeLaHunt 16:01, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes, as I said the change might involve retrofitting and programming challenges. But changing source text could be anything from trivially easy to impossibly difficult, depending on what resources the project has, which is something I don't have a clear idea of. At any rate, it's not clear to me why readers would be confused by having an internal link look the same as an external one; it's all just more information. Any confusion might be minimized byt the proper use of front text; for example, text that was just a place name would refer to another Wikitravel page, text referring to a Wikitravel page section could be introduced with See Also ... My proposal above though was just a suggestion to see if anyone else likes it. If no one does, then I'd go back to supporting the original proposal to make all external links footnotes. Sailsetter 16:35, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Rule simplification, simplified

Er... um, I purposely delimited my above proposal to something vary narrow, because these discussions get bogged down, nearly every time, in the morass of slightly diverging preferences. We can and should discuss other more ambitious proposals for the policy in separate threads. But I'd like to keep the discussion within this heading delimited to whether or not people think that the following very unambitious proposal is a good idea:

Extend the rule, that external links be formatted via footnotes, to in-prose links occurring outside of listings.

This is a very narrow category of external links that for some reason we have mandated a link format different from all other external links, and I think we would gain from this change in that the policy would become more succinct and easier to follow (all other preferences aside). Despite having pushed more than a dozen articles (that violated this arcane formatting rule) through the star-nom process and having referenced this policy hundreds of times, this formatting nuance was sufficiently obscure that I never actually realized it existed. So, any objections to this particular simplification? --Peter ^Talk 16:19, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Support --Nick 16:39, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes, I'd support it, and let my other proposal just be tabled. There's one point though that I think should be cleared up at the same time, since I for one am still confused by it. What is the standard for footnote links including highlighted front text? For instance, should it be The British Museum or The British Museum [9]? If I understand the standards, it's supposed to be latter, but I see the former if anything more often. And if the latter, should it be an explicit standard that the leading text be in bold, like my example? I know this isn't strictly part of the proposal, but it might be advantageous to include a restatment/clarification of this when making the proposed change to have only footnote links. And I'm sorry to exasperatingly respond to a request to not complicate things by introducing a complication, but I really think it's unavoidable: if we're going to say "OK from now on all links must be footnote links," it really is necessary to be sure everyone understands what footnote links are. Sailsetter 16:58, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

That's exactly what Peter is asking... at the moment we advocate both... the first one for links within a paragraph of text, the second for an actual business listing. By "footnote style links" he's referring to The British Museum [10]... he's proposing that ALL links be like that, even if it's within a sentence in a paragraph – cacahuate ^talk 19:54, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Sure I'll support that, and I'll try to shut up about it now. Sailsetter

Support [11] -- Colin 18:37, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

• Support for the sake of simplicity... but for the record you just bogged down my suggestion again, damn you. I forgive you only because even if we came to a consensus for [web] or ^web or whatever it would involve one of those retched tech requests that would be ignored for 2 years – cacahuate ^talk 19:54, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

(That's a very generous estimate.) --Peter ^Talk 00:55, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

OK, I've now implemented this change. We now allow only footnote style links per policy. I also cut a bunch of prose & examples that struck me as unnecessary and dilutive of the impact of the article. Hopefully we'll be able to move from the footnotes to an icon-only format? --Peter ^Talk 16:09, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

Great edit, Peter. It's really plain simple and absolutely readable now. --DenisYurkin 17:05, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] guidebooks again

As long as previous discussion on traditional guidebooks was archived (as VFD and a talk page for article), I post a question here.

How acceptable is the following piece from Vatican City#Do?

> Guidebooks such as Rick Steves, Lonely Planet, Let's Go, etc provide a valid starting point for planning your time at the Vatican.

And if not acceptable, how should we change it to comply? --DenisYurkin 17:58, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

It's not exactly helpful, and it should just be deleted en toto. -- Colin 18:40, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Agreed with Colin. Gorilla Jones 19:20, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

So should we completely remove the whole quoted sentence from the article? --DenisYurkin 19:21, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Yes, "en toto" is an expression that means "in total" - it should be totally removed. Gorilla Jones 19:28, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Done. --DenisYurkin 02:58, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Formatting of external links

This is a suggestion about external links, but it's separate from the current discussion about when to use footnote links. It concerns the format of those links, whenever they're used. Currently the example under "Links in Listings" says to do it like this:

Asian Civilization Museums at Empress Place, 1 Empress Place, tel. +66 633  27798 [12].

What would people think of making the standard instead:

Asian Civilization Museums at Empress Place, [13]1 Empress Place, tel. +66 633  27798 .

(Sorry if one example is in a box and one not; I can't figure out how to turn the box off.)

[Putting in a space at the beginning of the line formats the line in fixed-pitch font and puts a box around it. I've made this correction. JimDeLaHunt]

It seems to me much tidier and easier on the eye to have the link right after the name, especially in a list, since the contact information can be a string ranging from null to very long, with the result that in the first format the eyecatching highlighted links end up scattered all over the page. Of course retrofitting would be a problem, but maybe it should be decided first if the latter format is better, then decide if it's too much trouble to implement. I've used the latter format already in a couple places since I didn't notice the example until now, I'll go back and change them if this proposal doesn't go anywhere. Sailsetter 10:33, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

Sailsetter: thank you for your contributions and your suggestions! Now me, I don't feel strongly about the difference. Part of the philosphy if WikiTravel is that it seeks to be usable offline, as a print-out. In that case the link is useless, and the address and phone number are more important. Thus they come first. But you could also argue that on-line use matters too. (Shrug.) One thing to note is that some listings are entered with the "eat" and "sleep" entities, so we could move the placement of the link for those listings with a single edit. [Editorial changes: Corrected formatting of second example above. Promoted this section to level 2 header ("==").] JimDeLaHunt 15:25, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] English-language sites

I question the following policy:

Some sites have a main page in a non-English language with a cryptic link to an English page, such as http://travel.example.com/fff?349sdshd.asp. This might not be a permanent link, so it is better to use the URL of the main page and let Wikitravel users find the current link to the English version.

I've used a lot of sites with such links, sometimes for years, and I've never seen such a link disappear. My personal bookmarks contain a lot of links directly to such pages, and I've never had a problem. On the other hand, the frequent clicking on a link in Wikitravel to a non-English page, on which I have to then search for the English link, is a continual irritant and I think puts people off. Is there really such a problem with these English links that it justifies not linking to them? Sailsetter 12:00, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Another problem with the policy as stated is that it distiguishes "good" links to English pages from "bad" ones, but it's not clear from the examples how to tell the difference, even to me, and I'm fairly knowledgeable about such things. Some links from non-English to English language pages that I've used involve very long and cumbersome URLs, but they've always worked fine and seem perfectly 'good' to me. Many contributors, I think, are going to be confused by this. And I note that very often contributions link to the non-English version of the page even when there is a perfectly 'good' simple URL. Sailsetter 13:50, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

In my experience at least Japanese sites have a terrible habits of breaking all their links every half year or so. That said, I don't think this is a huge problem either way: it's usually pretty easy to find the "English" link from the main page, and conversely, if the direct link breaks it's not too hard to head back to the root page. Jpatokal 03:52, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Well maybe other people can weigh in on this: do other people find that links from non-English to English external pages are unreliable? And are they irritated by clicking on a Wikitravel link and finding themselves staring at a language they can't read? And does is the irritation a bigger or smaller problem than the unreliability? Sailsetter 09:52, 19 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Travel agents

On the Symi (Greece) page I listed a travel agent and linked to their web site. It isn't clear to me from the policy page and discussion if this is ok. On the one hand, the agency has a web site which offers to find accommodation and other travel services; on the other hand, I think they're just local to Symi, and they have an office there that travelers can walk into. I used them there and found them good. Any comments? (Maybe I should just list them with contact info but no link?) Sailsetter 20:12, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

My understanding of the general principle is not linking to secondary sites. Travel agents in general are intermediaries. They may be a great travel agent, but we want to be the ones helping travelers find accommodation, etc. --Jonboy 11:32, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

So does this mean we just shouldn't link to travel agents' web sites, or that we shouldn't even mention travel agents or the specific office they might have in a specific location? I think not mentioning them at all can in some cases be a real disservice to travelers. For instance, knowing about the travel agent's office I mention on Symi could be a real help to someone who arrives there without a room and finds everything booked up, as I know from experience. Another example: I mentioned on the page for Sifnos (Greece) that organized, guided walks are available on the island. I also mentioned that information about them is available at the Sifnos office of a certain travel agent (I gave the office's name and town but didn't link to their web site, since in this case the web site looks like a general Greek travel service agency.) The information about walks is certainly useful and appropriate, but so far as I know, that travel agency office on Sifnos is the only place to get details and sign up for them. So if the information is justified, it would seem that naming that travel agent's office also has to be justified, since without naming it the information would be pretty useless. Sailsetter 11:53, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

In the latter case, since the travel agency is the way to sign up for the walks, that seems reasonable. In the former case, I'm hesitant to open up the door a crack. We would rather give travelers a list of hotels, etc. to try than devote space to travel agents, I think. --Jonboy 12:10, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

I think the hope is that our guides become good enough, where the booking agencies become irrelevant. I think keeping booking agencies listed on the site can be a deterrent to contributors actually adding the contact details for the hotels, since they'll see the booking agency and figure that anyone can just get their contact info taken care of through the agency. Moreover, as is natural for a wiki, we have a pretty strong DIY culture here, and booking agencies grate against that ideal. Another reason why our external links policy is so categorical about booking agencies is that experience has taught Wikitravel that this can be a very slippery slope, where all sorts of useless (and quite possibly unscrupulous) booking agencies start spamming their links all over our guides. (So, even if the Symi agency is useful, its inclusion could undermine a rule that works really well across the site.)

The walks are a separate issue, and sound like a borderline case for our tour policy. I guess my feeling would be to include the walks as a "do listing" and provide the contact info for Sifnos there, without mentioning that it is a travel agency. That is kind of odd advice, but that stays in line with our policies and avoids running afoul of any slippery slopes. --Peter ^Talk 12:22, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

If there's a consensus on the first point above I'll remove the Symi agency (might not get to it right away though.) The advice about the walks isn't going to work though. The only contact information I can give for that agency is its name and town and the advice to inquire locally for the exact location. This is actually fairly common on Greek islands: many travel agents, hotels, etc. have no address but something like "Odysseus Travel Agency, 81000 Naxos Greece" (made up example.) So I'm not sure what to do. Sailsetter 12:39, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Another problematic example. There's a couple of hotels I'd recommend on the Greek island of Spetses (though I haven't listed them yet) which are run by a travel agency. That is, it's a family business and the family runs a travel agency and two hotels. The contact information for the hotels is the travel agency: whether you are there personally or contacting them from afar, you need to go to their travel agency office to book their hotel. And again, you can't give the contact information without giving the name of the travel agency, since there's no street address: people have to look for the travel agency sign when they get off the boat, or ask, "Where's the XYZ travel agency?" I'm sure this isn't a unique example. So what to do in a case like that? Another point: most travel guides don't share the reluctance to mention travel agents. Frommers and Rough Guides, for instance, both make it a standard practice to recommend at least one travel agent with contact information and sometimes web sites at each destination they discuss. Sailsetter 12:49, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

A check of my book shelf shows that Lonely Planet also routinely lists at least one recommended travel agency for each destination. DK Eyewitness Guides don't routinely recommend them, but they do sometimes include travel agents listings for special purposes (tours, hikes, etc.) I don't have any Fodor's around, but I think I remember they may include travel agents too. It seems to be pretty standard in the travel guide industry. Sailsetter 13:43, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Footnote links should print as footnotes?

What if... when you printed a page, these links that we call footnote style links actually printed as footnotes at the bottom of the page. I think it would improve readability tremendously in some cases, such as the many article that have a few lines like this: This, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this airlines service city X. If the person is on the internet, they can presumably pull up the wikitravel page and work from there. If it's a printed version, I see no reason for the traveller to need to see the URL at all, except as a footnote. What's our feeling there? Texugo 02:56, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

This seems like a good idea. But Wikitravel doesn't have a special print format function, does it? Sailsetter 10:44, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

There is indeed, look for the "printable version" link in the toolbox on the left sidebar. I also think this is a good idea. --Peter ^Talk 11:28, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

Thanks, don't know how I missed that. But the printable version isn't formatted in pages, so where would the footnotes go? Sailsetter 12:02, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

I was thinking to just throw them all at the end of the article. I guess technically that style is called endnotes. Texugo 10:25, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Car rental agencies

What's the policy, or what should it be, for listing or linking to car rental agencies? Is it allowed at all? If it is, is there a distinction between local, national, or world-wide agencies? What about a national agency whose web site lists an office in a local destination? Sailsetter 10:20, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

No policy that I know of. I usually only list them if there's a large/cheap local agency that's not one of the big boys (Hertz, Avis, Budget, etc). Jpatokal 10:54, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

Also don't think there is a set policy. Normally I list the big ones in the country listing with their national contact details. Smaller local ones as well as the big ones with local offices in city articles. Same with specialist rentals (Camper vans, 4x4 etc) and train services. --Nick 01:28, 16 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] No links to non-English sites

So, there's a rule that says "Do not link to sites/pages that have no English language content". I've been wilfully ignoring this for years now, and I think it's time to change this: the official site of any listing should always be linked to, whether it be in English, Hebrew or Klingon. Even on the English WT there are travellers who will understand the language in question and who would find them useful; basic pattern matching is enough to read almost any timetable; and even without a word of the language eg. pictures of hotel rooms are still quite handy. Jpatokal 05:17, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

I concur with your reasoning. The only caveat I have is that in some instances it is difficult to know what is being linked to--primarily in the case of non-Western alphabets (sorry, I don't know how best to express that). This can cause difficulty when patrolling non-primary links. -OldPine 06:59, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

I think that can be dealt with as per usual: assume good faith, and nuke it if somebody who does speak the language comes along and spots the spam. Jpatokal 09:53, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

Since there are no dissenting opinions, I've gone ahead and struck that out. Jpatokal 07:53, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Hear, hear! (Better late than never.) JimDeLaHunt 15:15, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Link to scanned flyer with Viennese train schedule?

In Vienna Westbahnhof, the OEBB spreads a flyer with a summary of train connections from and to East, West and Med. Europe. I scanned it and added it to Vienna, and the respective European pages, as Vienna is quite railway hub. However, Colin removed the information, as it was not primary source, and WT wants to be a printed guide too. I responded that a lot of people use mobile devices, and the table-like information is not includable in WT pages, nor are pdf uploadable as files.

The phrase I added, in different variations, was [14]. the flyer is here and here.

As the traveller comes first, and there's no useful info in the several European pages, I wonder if I'm the only one who believes this info should be on the European pages. Also, to me it doesn't seem to be necesarily kicked out under this policy. What do other people think? -- Eiland 11:03, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

No-one reacts so I re-add it. -- Eiland 17:43, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

I believe Colin is correct, the link is not to a primary source and is against policy. I have reverted your re-adds. -- OldPine 18:38, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

To clarify, do you believe you links are within policy, or that policy should be changed to allow your links? -- Colin 20:47, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

The timetable is a primary source. Its is not commented, analysed or summarized in any way. Therefore I think it falls within the primary source policy. It does not fall in the "What not to link"-section. So I dont see a need to change the policy, or you want to add something about scanned resources? Regarding the policy that wikitravel aims to be standalone, without external information, where is that policy written down? As I already mentioned somewhere, if this is the policy, I believe this should be subject for discussion, considering the increasing usage of mobile devices. -- Eiland 06:25, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Heh, I see your point. The information is a scan of a primary source. I'm still thinking the link is not a primary source though. Let's see if we can get a few more opinions. For other policy info, see Wikitravel:Goals and non-goals. I apologize for not referencing that policy -- I thought the info was in the External links policy. -- Colin 15:23, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

I've added this discussion to Wikitravel:RFC to try to get more opinions. -- Colin 15:25, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

I noticed that there. While a scanned timetable might be a primary source, it would also be a copyright violation unless the person scanning it had permission from the copyright owner to copy the timetable. I don't think that Wikitravel should link to things that are copyright violations, regardless of whether they are primary sources or not, as it could be seen as a form of contributory infringement. If the person scanning does have permission, it might be alright to link to it, but my preference, if possible (it isn't always possible), would be for the person to ask for permission to distribute it under a Creative Commons license, and add the information here directly. JYolkowski 20:33, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Well, if the official website of the train service had a schedule page, the first preference I think would be to link to that... if not, and you can legally scan a copy of one, wouldn't it be better to just upload it to shared and put it in the article? Personally, if I were writing a city article, I would summarize the main points like "trains run hourly to x y and z, listing common destinations, rather than trying to host info on every possible place they service – cacahuate ^talk 20:56, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Regarding the copyright, I see your point, but I think it is taking it a bit too far to want every linked resource also to fall under WT's copyright policy. As the timetable is a handout in the train station, I think scanning and linking it from a travel wiki would qualify as fair use? Also, it is technically not possible to upload pdf's into WT. Does this now mean I can re-add the links? 2008 is slowly running out. -- Eiland 04:11, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Wikitravel:Copyright details#Fair_use seems to indicate that fair use images shouldn't be used on Wikitravel. Thinking about possible reusers of this material, I would tend to disagree with linking to this without permission. I couldn't imagine a printed travel guide providing a URL to something that is technically a copyright violation, for example. JYolkowski 20:58, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

I still object to this as a non-primary link. It may be a primary source, but the link is not. At any rate the most important thing in all these instances is a telephone number, and indication as to the cities served as Cacahuate points out. PDFs files can be printed and scanned and then uploaded to shared. In any case, this soon becomes old information--unlike a true primary link. OldPine 21:45, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Actually, in this instance there is a web page at the bottom of the scanned flyer. This official web site appears to have all the information yours does, though in some ways it's a less convenient format. So your link is definitely non-official in this instance. -- Colin 21:52, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

The flyer has been very helpful to me, as it provided me with a clear overview of all connections, and how they might be combined, while planning my journeys. I thought this to be a great addition to Wikitravel, also concerning Ecotourism, and the general difficulty of obtaining clear train information (as opposed to that for airtravel, which is generally less cumbersome to plan, as planes leap over several countries at once, and the fierce market, which warrants better information). But by now, I think I've put enough effort in promoting it. If people who feel more ownership for the wikitravel project think its bollocks, risky from a legal perspective, or outdated before its outdated, I don't think I'll be able to convince them otherwise, and, unfortunately, leave it with this. -- Eiland 04:46, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

That was a little overdramatic. You're as welcome here as anyone... and I can assure you everyone involved in this conversation has been disagreed with on multiple occasions... welcome to your first time :) – cacahuate ^talk 01:47, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Country/City repetitions

I think there should be a policy, or if there is one it should be better advertised, about where to put things that can apply to countries and cities. For instance, should a description of the Athens airport and its transit links be in the Get There Greece section or the Athens one? Should warnings of scams common in Italy be in the Stay Safe section of Italy or of Rome? Should remarks on how easy or hard it is to get by with English in Austria be just in the Talk section of Austria or of Vienna or both? Should descriptions of menu items be in the national or the city Eat section? There currently seems to be a great deal of inconsistency about this: sometimes such things are in the Country section, sometimes in the City section, and very often both. The most logical thing would be to put everything at the highest level and cross-reference from the lowest, for instance, give warnings against Italian tourist scams in the Stay Safe section of Italy and then put pointers to them in that section of the Rome, Naples, and Florence pages. But in practice applying this would involve quite a bit of rewriting of some pages, and it would be better if this could be justified by pointing to a specific policy. Sailsetter 10:14, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

I vote for "put everything at the highest level which info is applicable to", even without cross-referencing to it from lower levels. --DenisYurkin 13:03, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

I totally disagree. Information should be at the lowest correct level, with plenty of cross-references from higher levels. Eg. Rome's airport belongs in Rome, and the Italy article should link to it (while also mentioning that Milan is a big hub and worthy alternative). Jpatokal 08:16, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Yes, I tend to think that's the best policy. Cross-references give a cluttered look, and people can learn that they should read "from the top down" to get all the information on destinations. But it would be good to have an explicit policy statement to point to in case anyone objects to the necessary retrofitting. Sailsetter 13:31, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

I would caution that even if the Athens airport is in the Greece article I would want to see it in the Athens article as well and certainly referenced (without links other than the internal link to Athens) in any subregion of Greece that includes Athens. The smaller cities accessed through that airport could then just refer to the airport at Athens. OldPine 22:18, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Regarding airports, I think the best and most logical thing to do is to include the general descriptions (size, how many airlines served, how easy or hard it is to get through, relevant web site and telephone numbers) for all international airports in the country page, and then put information about connections from the airport to the city on the City page. With this method I don't think there would really need to be an explicit cross reference from the city By Air entry to the country one, though I suppose it couldn't hurt to make the airport name a link the first time it's mentioned on the City page, e.g. in the Athens Get In/By Air section, it would begin "Getting from Athens Airport ..." (the link would be to the Athens Airport heading in the Country/Get In/By Air section.)

Our policy is actually pretty clearly defined already (though whether it's clearly followed is another story :))... See Wikitravel:Country_article_template#By_plane. The United States article is a good example of how a country "By plane" section should look – cacahuate ^talk 01:54, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Do we really have disagreement here? Isn't "the highest level reasonable" the same as "the lowest correct level"? It seems to me the following examples are the best way to do things and could be described as either:

• Dishes common throughout Greece, like moussaka or souvlaki, should be in the Greece Eat section and shouldn't appear on the Crete Eat section, while specifically Cretan specialties like dakos should be in the Crete Eat secction, and not the Greece Eat section.

• Information on the "clip joint scam," which is found in various places in Greece, should be in the Greece Stay Safe section, though since it's most to be watched out for in Athens, there could be a mention of it in the Athens Stay Safe section with a link to the Greece Stay Safe section for details.

• Advice to watch out for sunburn, jellyfish, and other dangers common throughout Greece should be only in the Greece Stay Safe section and don't need to be repeated elsewhere.

• My experience in Austria is that English is commonly spoken in Vienna, though not as commonly as in Amsterdam or Munich, and that elsewhere in Austria English is less common than you might expect. In this case it would be justified to have comments on English prevalence in the country outside Vienna on the country page, and on English in Vienna in the city page.

As for cross references, I think this is mostly a matter of stylistic preference -- personally, I know enough to read all "levels" in a travel guide relevant to a destination and find too many cross-reference give a messy look. But if it's decided to make cross references routine via internal links, I'll do it, but I think there should be a specific policy statement to this effect.

I propose to follow the principles exemplified in the above examples -- what is the agreement/disagreement on this? Sailsetter 12:53, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

None here, I think you have it exactly right. Also agree that excessive cross-referencing should be avoided. We also have a budding internal links policy, which is still a bit of a skeleton.

Re: lowest/highest levels, it depends what you're talking about... I think Jpatokal above is thinking about airline info, etc... in which case it should be at the lowest level (city), with pointers from the country article. But info about a particular kind of food, etc, should be at the highest applicable level, with, IMO, little to no cross referencing – cacahuate ^talk 23:40, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for the comments. I'll keep checking to see if there's further discussion. But it looks like for the present I can at least follow the principles above in making and revising pages, for instance, leave "wear sunscreen" or "eat moussaka" out of all the Greek pages except the Greece one (unless there's some special reason to leave them in, like "This taverna on Mykonos has the best moussaka in Greece.) Sailsetter 11:46, 14 July 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Virtual tour of Albuquerque

Would adding links to the pages on my websites, www.VirtualAlbuquerque.com and www.VirtualSantaFe.com be in violation of the External Linking Policy?

The sites are Multimedia Tours of Albuquerque and Santa Fe, New Mexico that use 360°x 360° Interactive Imaging and Steaming Video to show visitors what Albuquerque and Santa Fe look like.

There are tours of historic sites, tourist attractions, museums, hotels, restaurants, etc

VirtualAlbuquerque.com and VirtualSantaFe.com are commercial websites and not the official website of a convention bureau, chamber of commerce or the locations and events that appear on it.

What I would like is to add a link that reads "A Virtual tour of Sandia Peak Tramway" at the end of a paragraph or article, that links to that location's page on my sites.

Thanx for any feedback Doug Aurand

It would violate the policy, per What not to link to — "In particular, avoid links to other travel guides." Thanks for asking before adding them, though! It looks like you have a nice site, but the rule is useful ;) --Peter ^Talk 13:23, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

What if I provided links like this one for the Sandia Tramway? http://www.vabq.com/ABQlinks/SandiaPeakTramway/

No, the only links allowed are to official sites of the city in question, or official sites of individual listings, like restaurant sites, or museum sites. --Peter ^Talk 15:14, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

Seams like a pretty closed minded policy, when you could show visitors to WikiTravel.org what the places look like rather just reading about them. Given the choice of looking at images of the Grand Canyon or reading about them, I'd chose the former. But if that's the policy, and it can't be changed, I'll respect it. Thanx Doug Aurand

The idea is that images should be on this site, not linked. That's especially important, given that we aim to be a printable guide as well as an online guide. --Peter ^Talk 15:42, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

So while the most popular sites on the Web like YouTube, TripAdvisor use "moving media", mostly video, you're staying with still photos only. Again, it seems prety closed minded in today's environment of the Internet that has re-runs of most television programs online and free to view at anytime. And the "official" website links that are allowed, have the same limitation my tour links do; they don't print well. Free professionally produced travel multimedia is hard to come by, and you're turning it down.

The non-official rule also stops spam. And while media can be nice for travel planning, it's worthless in a travel guide, which needs be a quick reference, and portable. You'll notice that Fodors and LP don't include youtube videos either. In any rate, Wikitravel seems to be doing fine as is ;) --Peter ^Talk 16:26, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

To add a bit more to Peter's responses, I think everyone agrees that the current policy is too "close-minded" / restrictive. However, until a new proposal is made that meets these three objectives then the current policy will remain the best that we've got:

1. The policy MUST allow us to remove spammy links such as apartment rental aggregators and sites simply trying to raise their Google rank, and also provide a way to prevent Wikitravel articles from becoming overburdened with external links.
2. The policy MUST NOT diminish contributor's incentive for adding content TO Wikitravel, rather than simply linking to another site.
3. The policy MUST make it easy for an editor with limited knowledge of the destination and the web site to determine if a site is valid or not.

Anyone with a suggestion that fulfills these three objectives is welcome to propose it, although as yet no one has come up with an acceptable alternative. -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:05, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] known exceptions

As long as the policy is being challenged quite frequently, I thought of creating a list of known exceptions from this policy--all of which reflect a long-standing consensus (and are not undiscussed extlinks-added-yesterday). Hopefully the list can be useful a bit in future battles :-)

If anyone find this idea useful, please contribute to the list below. BTW, is this talk page the best place to have such a list? --DenisYurkin 14:05, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Exception list

• Tips for flying:
  • http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/seats.htm
  • http://www.seatguru.com/articles/aircraft_type.php
• Fundamentals of flying
  • http://www.seatguru.com/
  • http://www.airlinemeals.net/
• Greece
  • http://www.gtp.gr/ and http://www.openseas.gr/OPENSEAS/index_en.vm (no official source)

[edit] What constitutes an "official" web site?

A link to an "official" web site is allowed in the first sentence of an article. Real-world example: Rochester (New York). Should that link be the city web site (http://www.cityofrochester.gov) or the official tourism web site (http://www.visitrochester.com/)? I note that New York (state) uses http://iloveny.com, which is the tourism web site, rather than http://www.state.ny.us/. Is that the precedent?

One complicating factor: Wikitravel:Where you can stick it says that data on visitor information centers go in the Understand section. If we use the tourism web site in the article lead, then it seems odd to link it again under "Visitor information" (see the Rochester article for what I mean).

Thoughts?

-- LtPowers 15:42, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Definitely the official tourism organisation. http://www.kk.dk - the Copenhagen municipality website is relevant for residents, while http://www.visitcopenhagen.com - the official tourism organisations website, is relevant to visitors. Same goes for Rochester and NY above - and I suspect the vast majority of cities and countries (http://www.visitdenmark.com vs http://www.denmark.dk). My own policy has been to add the municipality website, only when there is no official tourism agency for the city or region to link to. --Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 15:50, 10 December 2008 (EST)

If there is an official tourism site then it goes in the first sentence. If there is a visitor's information center with a street address then that would go under "Understand". If they share a URL that's fine. Note if there isn't a physical location then the official tourism link shouldn't be shown twice. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:53, 10 December 2008 (EST)

[edit] Facebook

I think it is implied in the existing external links policy that we discourage links to faceoook groups - similar to discouraging links to flickr, youtube etc. Facebook is more a blog, photo collection, discussion board that an informational webpage. Does anybody have an issue if I add facebook to the end of that list we discourage linking to? --Inas 00:43, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

No objection here. Gorilla Jones 00:50, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

If a user wants to link from his user page to his Facebook page, that's fine. Anything else, no. Pashley 04:25, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

What is this Facebook of which you speak? and has anyone actually linked to it from a guide, anyway by all means go right ahead. --Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 04:35, 3 April 2009 (EDT)

Yes, Its happening over in Panama and one other place currently. Thanks all for their consideration. I'll make the updates to the main article. --Inas 00:37, 6 April 2009 (EDT)