From Wikitravel

[edit] Do? Eat? Verb tense?

Only curious: Why don't we use Eating, Seeing, Understanding, etc. instead of Eat, See, Understand, etc.?

Lesseeee... We actually did use the participial form for a while, but we changed it to the present tense (or imperative, take your pick) because they're shorter and punchier. --Evan 11:52, 20 May 2004 (EDT)

I would prefer the present continuous form also. In fact, there was someone on the Madrid page that changed the headings to something that I would consider more meaningful to the first time visitor. His edits can be found on this version of the page. I would certainly prefer the templates changed to reflect those sort of headings. --Colin Angus Mackay 02:29, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)

There's a lot to be said for short and punchy. On the other hand, the Get out header seems to generate the most problems -- see Wikitravel talk:Big city article template for an active discussion of this. (I also don't like Drink because it means more than just places that service beverages.). -- Colin 03:19, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)

I'm not into the change for a couple of reasons, firstly I just don't like the present participle form as a headline. I read the short form of the verb as imperative and I like that. The real reason not to use the Madrid example above for our templates though is that those headlines were taken directly from what Lonely Planet uses, and while they make excellent guides I don't want to be seen as copying them in any way. Wikitravel should have its own proper style and not borrow that of any other guide.

I do however see that Get out has been causing problems, and so I would like to consider switching to Get away, and then perhaps switch Drink to Get out maybe... -- Mark 03:24, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)

I like Picapica's headers, but a) I don't think they're sufficiently better than the ones we have now to warrant a change, and b) I am extremely averse to copying anything from other travel guides -- styles, formats, etc. --Evan 10:53, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)

I would still prefer to change the headings to something more meaningful. The current, imperative, form seems to much like a drill instructor barking commands. How about something like this: How to get in, What to see, What to do, Where to eat, Where to sleep, etc.

Anyway, at very least could we update the "Get Out" heading? I thought about "Get Away", but to me that is a statement of disbelief. How about "Day Out"? According to the template guide it is for "Other nearby destination suggestions or day-trip ideas" which is certainly what I've been using when I've added anything to the "Get Out" section. --Colin Angus Mackay 15:01, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Here's the description: Wikitravel:Big city article template#Get out. I think it's for any exit info.

As for your suggested headers: Eat doesn't just list where to eat, but what to eat, and when to do it. Same goes for most of the other headers. Having very general headers gives us some flexibility. --Evan 16:14, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Yes, I've read the description. It says don't repeat "Get In", but exit information is usually just the reverse of Get In so the same information applies but in the opposite direction. However, my main point was that the current headings are not actually that great. The more I think about it, the less and less I like the current headings. I don't want to be told what to do (which is what the imperative verb tense's function is) I want to be doing things of my choosing.

To make it clear, my problem with the headings is that the imperative tense makes it sound like an army drill instructor issuing commands rather than a travel guide suggesting ideas. --Colin Angus Mackay 18:23, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)

It is bad English. Is this the English version or the Cave-man version?

--Terry 20:40, 9 Aug 2005 (EDT)

I agree. As a native English speaker (from the UK), 'Get In' is definitely bad English - you can't 'get in' a country or a city. Perhaps 'get there' or 'getting there' would be a better section heading. In fact, the phrase 'get in' is a slang celebratory expression in modern UK English (e.g. "Arsenal beat Man United. Yes! Get in!").

--Anon 00:30, 17 Jul 2006 (EDT)

"Get in" is a commonly-used synonym for "arrive". "I just got in to London late last night." "Oh really? What time did you get in?" See http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/get%20in . --Evan 19:58, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

I don't think there are rules in English for how you title chapter and page section headings. Long latinate words aren't always "better" English; short saxon words aren't always worse. --Evan 10:19, 23 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Short + Fast + Clear = What Your Readers Want: this is the Web. Short clear headings that read at a glance are best for this material. Fancy language that slows the reader down is NOT what your readers want. Edit with your audience in mind. Be brief and keep navigation (headings are navigation) *short* and *clear*. The short headings are right. Look around the Web and observe what works. Thanks for your generous writing and ruthless purpose driven editing :-).

[edit] We need suggested itineraries

(Copying from Wikitravel:Travellers' pub#We need suggested itineraries -- Ravikiran 09:42, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT))

Thought: Wikitravel should be a useful guide for someone who wants to look up a country, and answer the question, "What should I DO AND SEE if I travel there?" Right now, the information on countries and regions/states is somewhat dry doesn't live up to this. Moreover, the templates don't have a section where you would write about this.

My suggestion: We should add to the templates for countries and regions a section "Suggested Itineraries". As usual, anyone could add to this section. So you might see a number of links for different users' suggestions, like:

- <link>2 week itinerary</link>: Travel from Cochin to Trivandrum, taking in hill stations and backwaters along the way. - <link>3 days on Mt Rainier</link>: A 3-day, 2-night hike on Mt Rainier that takes you away from the crowds. - etc.

I'm sure there are more things to consider in implementing this... for example, how do we add such a section to all the existing countries and states? It won't get added by luck. Thoughts? -- Jeremy_S

Do you mean like this? --Ravikiran 14:10, 11 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Exactly! That's beautiful. My concern is that I don't think such a thing will automatically spread unless there's some encouragement. E.g. Including "Itineraries" in the templates, and actually updating many of the existing travel pages to have such a section (even if it's blank). Jeremy_S 15 Sept 2005

I agree! This is a great idea. This kind of info is hugely helpful and remarkably scarce. 15 Sep 2005

There is a section for See and Do in region articles, which might also help. --Evan 09:28, 15 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I plunged forward and added an "Itineraries" subheading to the Region template. Revisions welcome. Jpatokal 21:53, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I'm not crazy about this, but the way I want to do it (with metadata markup) isn't implemented yet. So I'll reserve my objections until such time as I get Turtle markup working on Wikitravel. However, it would be great if instead of "Itineraries" we used a verbal form for the section. Lastly, wouldn't this work well in "Get around"? --Evan 09:23, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Well, if the articles are called itineraries, it would rather obfuscatory to use any other term in the section heading. IMHO Get around would be entirely the wrong place, because itineraries aren't about how to get around, they're about what to see and do. Jpatokal 10:19, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I'm going by Wikitravel:Itineraries. I think you're trying to describe what Three days in Singapore is about. That's a pretty interesting article, and I think there's a lot of value in it. I don't think it fits the dictionary definition of "itinerary" (a description of a route with destinations and timetable), though. Maybe we can give it another name? Or maybe it just makes sense to call them both by the same name. Anyways, putting a "See also" under the "Understand" or even the intro would be pretty good. Sorry, but I'm a big fan of parallelism and "Itineraries" just doesn't fit well.

I think that the question we're trying to answer (what should I do and see while in Country X or Region Y?) is already covered by having "See" and "Do" sections at the region level. This is kind of a "Top 10" list for a region. (See the examples in the template.) I think that could be easily generalized for the country guides, too. But taking those suggestions and linearizing them ("First go to A, then go to B, then go to C") does make sense as an additional article. --Evan 10:52, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Actually, Three days in Singapore (as well as its evil cohorts One day in Tokyo and One day in Bangkok) fit the definition "a route with destinations and a timetable" perfectly, it's just that a 'destination' here is more granular (single attractions) than Wikitravel's usual definition (a place to sleep). Come to think of it, for all three you could argue that they're itineraries even in the strict (Wikitravel) sense, as they all describe trips through districts of huge cities and thus different destinations... Jpatokal 12:21, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

So do we go ahead with Itenaries in a template? Rehanyarkhan 10:13, 19 March 2006 (EST)

[edit] Contact section in every city template?

I just realized something today... shouldn't the Contact section be in every city's template? The reason I say that is because we're supposed to be listing all of phone as you would dial them locally. The problem with that, though, is what if I'm travelling from outside of the local area and would like to call ahead? If I'm only dealing with a printed version (or even the online version, because it would still be a pain), I won't know how to contact them!

If the contact section is in each city's template, there could be a quick sentence along the lines of:

The local area code is 229 and is not required for local calls.

Short, sweet and to the point. I sure would feel more comfortable trimming the area code off of phone numbers knowing this would always be there. -- Ilkirk 14:35, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I haven't been keeping up with the phone number debates, but if I'm reading Wikitravel:Phone numbers correctly the area code should always be listed with the phone number, shouldn't it? I think it's just the country code that gets left off. If the policy is that the area code isn't listed, then personally I think the policy should be changed. -- Ryan 15:09, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Oh. Wow. I totally didn't see that change... or I've misread it. Hmmmm... except I don't really remember seeing that exact policy - it may be that it isn't stated that way in the manual of style entries? I'll have to investigate further... and change a bunch of stuff! :( -- Ilkirk 15:40, 22 Sep 2005 (EDT)

As I read Wikitravel:Phone numbers, the country code is there. In the example, it is just the "1" for North America, but it is given.

[edit] Island is a region?

Which template should be used for islands? E.g. for Santorini, for Crete? --DenisYurkin 11:51, 28 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Well, if it is a country, use the country template. If it is small enough to be a city, use the city template. If it is large and has cities inside it, use the region template. Any specific reason you think islands would require special handling? - Ravikiran 11:59, 28 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Ravikiran is right. See Singapore and the Falkland Islands for exmamples of "country" islands, Maui for an example of a "region" island, and Saunders Island for a "small city" (*cough* four people live there *cough*) example. Basically, if the island has multiple cities & isn't its own country, use a region template. If there is only one city, use the city template. If none of those can be made to fit, plant a flag in it 'cause you've discovered something new. -- Wrh2 13:01, 28 Sep 2005 (EDT)

This is old, but I wanted to revive it. Shouldn't this point about islands specifically be stated on the How to add a page section? Especially since so many popular travel destinations are islands. Sailsetter 18:36, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] The best Wikitravel articles are too damn long

Moved to shared:Tech:Optionally split long guides into one page per section by User:Evan

[edit] External links

OK, I've been sitting on this one for a long time. I think we need to get rid of the External Links section. This is why:

1. Probably over 50% of the edits I do on this site are rolling back external link additions. I think this is true for all of us who haunt the recent changes page. See an addition in the External Links section by an IP address and there's a 95% chance that it needs to be rolled back.
2. People add unwanted links for 2 reasons:
   1. They are spammers and they see a place to spam
   2. They are well-meaning folks who have links to an external site and it appears that we want those. They think we want these links because the sections is called External Links.
3. What we actually want is the official link to the tourism authority or what have you.
4. According to Wikitravel:Where you can stick it the information on the tourism office goes in the Understand section-- why doesn't the link go there as well?

Looking over Wikitravel:External links I think this policy should be amended to stress that all external links need to be incorporated into the content-- i.e. be part of a travel listing. Leaving it open to "other links" just invites abuse and misunderstanding and nixing this heading is the first step to clarifying this issue. Comments please... Majnoona 21:18, 22 Nov 2005 (EST)

I agree that keeping the Official Sites is not worth the effort of maintaining the extlink section. (But I sure would like a place to stick the occasional up-to-date nightlife events guide exlink first). I think pretty much anyone should be able to google their way to the Official links if that's what they want, plus DMOZ already covers the official extlinks along with the unofficial ones. -- Colin 22:24, 22 Nov 2005 (EST)

I second the motion! I think the official sites should go into the Understand section because most of them are tourist promotion/information sites anyway. Besides thats where they belong anyway. -- Huttite 03:17, 23 Nov 2005 (EST)

Me too. But how do they go in Understand? A one-liner at the end? We can't really create a "Further reading" section either, because that'll turn into the next home of link spam. Jpatokal 03:28, 23 Nov 2005 (EST)

How about including them the same way we do for a hotel with a URL? It would basically be the listing for the tourism office including address, phone, email and official site. As for a nightlife guide, if we wanted to include one it could be part of the Drink section, incorporated into a paragraph about how to find shows and whatnot. Majnoona 09:46, 23 Nov 2005 (EST)

Count my support too. I'd say we insist that any link that conforms to policy should be worked into the text. That will discourage people casually adding a link and not adding any useful content --Ravikiran 13:04, 23 Nov 2005 (EST)

I think this idea has universal support. The only problem I see is that we have an awful lot of "External links" sections to re-incorporate into the Understand section. Unless there's some reason to wait any longer, I suggest someone plunge forward to change the templates. I think we can then discuss what to do with the existing sections. --Evan 11:53, 2 Dec 2005 (EST)

One question before anyone launches on this. Yes, there is a problem with spam links. But is it clear that removing the external links section solves it, or even lessens it? I've seen spam showing up in other sections of some articles I work on. Won't this plan just force people to embed more of the spam in those other sections? Think about it -- I'd just as soon have the spam all going to the same place (i.e., the external links section) so that it's at least easy to deal with.

Not trying to be a nuisance here, just wondering whether the plan will meet the need, to use 30-year-old debater language. :-) -- Bill-on-the-Hill 12:34, 2 Dec 2005 (EST)

Wha!? You want the solution to be actually applicable to the problem?!? That's crazy talk! B-)

Seriously, I don't think that the point here is anti-spam, really. It's that we've got this whole top-level section that's mis-labeled and should really only have 1-3 entries. The information we want there (links to official tourist sites) is much more appropriate for the Understand section. --Evan 14:21, 2 Dec 2005 (EST)

I agree that it might not make a huge impact on actual spammers, but I think it will cut out the unintentional spammers-- i.e. those people who think they are helping by doing a google search on a place and then adding links under external links.

If there's no real disagreement here, I'm going to go ahead and edit the template pages to reflect this. I think the transition will be a slow one, but better now than later. Majnoona 14:49, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)

I'm in favor - thanks for volunteering to take the plunge! -- Ryan 14:51, 4 Dec 2005 (EST)

Just a thought. Maybe we could make a an { {Official-site}} templeate, that would put in the "Other sites/languages" together with Wikipedia, etc. --elgaard 19:35, 9 Dec 2005 (EST)

I wonder how to re-incorportate the external links currently found in destinations that use the small city template i.e. have no Understand section. Even the "one-liner" solution doesn't quite seem to work there. Rmx 22:02, 19 Dec 2005 (EST)

[edit] Place for official links

So as a follow up, I'd like to suggest the following:

1. Official destaintion site links appear after first mention of destaintion (see Clark for an example)
2. Official tourisim office site link appears in the listing for Welcome center / visitors booth what have you (ie where you'd go for a map...)

Comments? I'm happy to plunge forward and make the changes to the templates as well as add notes to Wikitravel:External links and Wikitravel:Where to stick it. Majnoona 14:23, 25 Jan 2006 (EST)

It looks like several editors are already following this policy, so can it be officially added to Wikitravel:External links? I'm in favor, and no one has objected since Maj proposed making it official. -- Ryan 16:39, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)

I like it, I'm doing it... thanks Maj for suggesting this -- Xltel 16:43, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)

[edit] Maps

What about Maps? Should we encourage mapmaking?

Yes. See Wikitravel:Mapmaking Expedition. --Evan 20:40, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)

A general map for orientation is highly usefull in any travel guide article, notwithstanding that for finer detail maps can be best obtained locally when one arrives in a destination (often at arrival points such as train stations, bus stations or local tourism info centers).

So . . .

[edit] Copyright

Do copyright laws permit mapmaking using other maps as the source material (I think so)?

Absolutely. It's not possible to copyright information (X street crosses Y avenue). You can't copy a map outright, nor can you copy exactly the same data as on another map, but it's OK to use another map as a source. --Evan 20:40, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)

Some maps include deliberate traps to snare you into a copyright violation (see Trap street on Wikipedia). Do not copy any item, item labeling, or item position from a map that you cannot verify as completely factual. -- Colin 01:20, 29 Dec 2005 (EST)

[edit] Map Links

What about links to useful maps on other websites (at least where WikiTravel lacks useful maps)?

USE CASE: I put some Map Links on the Hangzhou page and someone else deleted all my 45 minutes worth of work finding useful maps on the Web and linking to them for Hangzhou - DISSAPPOINTING! Some community thought and guidance regarding maps would help.) Rogerhc 19:08, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)

We have a guideline called Wikitravel:external links. Our goals include creating tourist-style maps for travellers, and linking out to external maps hurts, and doesn't help, this goal. We have a Mapmaking Expedition to discuss how to create and publish maps. --Evan 20:37, 28 Dec 2005 (EST)

I'd be a little less absolute on this — even the best static Wikitravel map will never be able to match, say, kartta.hel.fi or www.streetdirectory.com.sg for dynamic address lookups and such, so IMHO these are good, handy extlinks (and in kartta.hel.fi's case it's an official city government-run site to boot). But random flat Googled maps don't qualify. Jpatokal 06:19, 29 Dec 2005 (EST)

[edit] Template Changes

How about adding {{isIn|Destination}}? And on a related note, do we still need the "Foo is in Bar" text since it will just appear below the breadcrumb anyway? Majnoona 13:50, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)

Yes, I think we do. A lot of places do not have the IsIn added when the article is started and this might also need to change over time. Also if a region article is still to be written or does not have an IsIn reference, all you get is the article and its IsIn parent in the breadcrumb. Then there is no guarentee that any printed or redistributed text will understand what an IsIn means, and may not be able to extract the data if all they have is the article text. Articles without internal links also show up as dead-end or orphan pages, indicating a lack of Wiki-interconnectedness. From a parent article this would also mean you could not find all the related article using the what links here utility. Finally having the full locality hierarchy in the beginning of the article at least forces people to think and put the link back to one article where the destination is linked from. I have come across a few new pages with just the template without the Place is in region introduction at the top. Faced with a blank template I immediately ask the question Where in the world is this Place? The template only says that every destination must have a link back to a parent article. This may be a bit redundant, but at least the introductory paragraph can be changed around to be more descriptive. One of the most frustrating things I find with other travel guides is the complete lack of location information. Almost everybody else who writes about or promotes tourist places always seems to assume that because you know the name of a destination, you know where it is in the world; as a result the location of many destinations is their best kept secret. As they say in the real estate business its location, location, location.... -- Huttite 17:16, 18 Jan 2006 (EST)

Wow. I agree with you many times now! Majnoona 19:14, 31 Jan 2006 (EST)

[edit] Airport Codes?

Swept in from the Travellers' pub:

I was just editing the Miami Beach entry and noted that neither local international airport was linked from its airport code, nor had any article at all. I would like to suggest that stub articles be added for at least all major international airports, as these definitely constitute places of interest to travelers.

In our guidelines for deciding what is an article, airports don't usually get articles because they are not destinations, and should be folded into the content of their containing city or region. Some airports are complex enough that they do get articles though. If you want to write an article about a particular airport, you might want to raise the issue at Wikitravel talk:What is an article? and generate a discussion about whether the airport really should have its own article. -- Colin 20:19, 23 Aug 2005 (EDT)

It would be nice to have a stub page on each airport, if only for the purpose looking at reverse links. I guess a search might accomplish the same purpose, though.

No, it seems like search doesn't accomplish the same purpose. Search for "IAH", and you get 0 hits. The hit you most want is Houston, which does include the string "IAH". The problem may be because the search software eliminates all words of 1-3 letters from its index because some, like "an" and "the", are too common to be helpful. See Wikitravel:Search_help for more information. JimDeLaHunt 20:19, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)

I propose creating redirects for each three-letter international airport code. The redirect points to 1. an article on that airport, where such an article exists; or 2. the article for the city to which that airport belongs. For instance, KIX would be a redirect to Kansai International Airport, while IAH would be a redirect to Houston. JimDeLaHunt 20:19, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)

I further propose some change to the search mechanism such that searches for airport codes give useful results that point you to information on that airport and its city. Creating the redirects for each code might be sufficient, but it might not. JimDeLaHunt 20:19, 4 Jan 2006 (EST)

I'd love to see the IATA (probably ICAO as well) airport code added to the Get In sections in a standardized way. Some places do not have an airport code at all. Other articles give directions to the airport but no airport name or code. Looking up airport codes is a crucial task when planning travel. It might be possible to refer to airports with a new tag and create a database on these to lookup articles that refer to a particular airport code.

[edit] Icons for kid-friendly attractions

Swept in from the Travellers' pub:

I really like how Fodor's has the little duck symbol next to kid-friendly attractions. Could we do the same thing? We could indicate recommendations (as mentioned above in "lists versus recommendations"), photo-op points, and maybe a few other things. This could be easily done by linking to a standard image, or perhaps creating a WM macro.

[edit] Dedicated pages for hotels and restaurants

Swept in from the Travellers' pub:

Where can I put a REALLY detailed information about a hotel? I have spent some effort in collecting travellers-oriented info on the hotels I recently stayed at. Each hotel worth at least a separate page with multiple sections each -- how is it better to contribute it? I'm sure the information would be helpful for those planning their trip careful enough to know details normally not available through hotel web sites or even reviews. And I would be happy to help Wikitravel.org to become a place to find such kind details next to overviews.

Same question for restaurants: I visited a dozen and ready to share some feedback, both overall and on specific dishes, recommended and not. I can publish a content for one of them if the idea doesn't look counter to Wikitravel goals at this stage.

-- DenisYurkin 19:01, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Wikitravel isn't really designed for incredibly detailed reviews, so you should try to compress the data into a single paragraph.

That said, one of the things I'd like to see in the future is a link to a detailed review page for each attraction, where travellers can contribute their personal opinions. Jpatokal 21:13, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Agreed here; interested in the personal opinions idea, but it's going to be a delicate operation. I think that about a paragraph per hotel is the most we can accommodate reasonably. At the outside, for "destination" hotels -- ones that are a site in and of themselves -- I could see doing a sub-section format like we do for attraction listings. But I think that'd be a rare exception. --Evan 11:08, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Could you detail what do you mean by a delicate operation? I'm ready to write a single paragraph about each, but I wouldn't want to throw away my experiences that I believe valuable for other travellers, but too detailed to find space in that paragraph. Is it ok that I start with a single paragraph, then try to create a separate page for hotel or two? What are the chances the content will survive, and efforts will be not wasted? --DenisYurkin 14:34, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

A paragraph is plenty. The last person to re-write it can pretty much do whatever they want to it. If there's dissagreement then it can be taken to the talk page. There's no reason to have a separate page per listing. That will just make our guides seem really empty and useless, basically turning us into another World 66 or worse. -- Mark 15:15, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

> one of the things I'd like to see in the future is a link to a detailed review page for each attraction, where travellers can contribute their personal opinions.

Why wait for a future? Encouraging people to just share their opinions -- even from a single visit -- would become another source of information for compressed, one-paragraph summary. After all, most travellers visit every place one or two times per trip -- why loosing their insight? I am not too experienced in Wikitravel realities, but from my personal experiences, experts in the region are rare and, normally, well-paid -- while amateurs are many, and it's them who are willing to share with others. --DenisYurkin 13:49, 26 Sep 2005 (EDT)

The reason I'm filing this in the Mysterious Future is that Mediawiki doesn't currently allow any easy way to automatically insert "See reviews"/"Add reviews" buttons that would allow inserting and maintaining one-person reviews, not the usual collective editing. Manually maintaining these would be a massive headache. Jpatokal 06:15, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I think I can easily make it reality with MediaWiki templates -- are we ready to give a try? Promise the page won't be deleted (as it happened with GreekWines) if it works? SeeReviews / AddReview can be achieved easily. The only thing I'm not sure about is signing each review automatically with user name and timestamp. However, I believe we can start with existing Wikitravellers -- and they are smart enough to sign their opinions. What do you think?

As I said in the thread above, I can propose some structure for hotel pages -- providing place both for objective, factual info, and subjective opinions. Chances effort won't be wasted? --DenisYurkin 14:34, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

I'm really not so much into this idea I'm afraid. I think it has the potential to make our articles really lopsided and to disperse effort away from our destination guides. Meanwhile if you have additional comments for or against one of the restaurants/bars/hotels on a given destination guide it seems to me that the destination's talk page is pretty much the perfect place to put it. We do not need, nor does it serve our goals to have pages per listing. -- Mark 15:09, 27 Sep 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Leave them out or keep them in?

The current article says:

If there are sections of the template that don't really fit your destination, well, just leave them out.

I'd suggest changing this to say that every article really should have at least the Get in, Get around, See, Eat and Sleep sections. Only clearly unnecessary sections (eg. Get in/By boat for a landlocked country) should be removed. Jpatokal 22:56, 20 Feb 2006 (EST)

Sure, should we just indicate which ones are optional? Majnoona 10:20, 28 February 2006 (EST)

Yes we should. It will be good for housekeeping. --Ravikiran 11:17, 28 February 2006 (EST)

[edit] Needed: Insider's Choice Section

See, Do, Eat, Drink, etc are all too broad in most cities here. We need an Insider's Choice section where specific activities & venues can be posted that can serve as an opinionated guide within the respective city. This is much required because an travel guide needs to give an opinion on what needs to be done in a particular place. Going forward, MediaWiki could support a rating system and each listing within Insider's Choice can be rated. Rehanyarkhan 10:23, 19 March 2006 (EST)

As User:Ravikiran r has stated elsewhere, I think that all listings in Wikitravel should be considered "Insider's Choice", and that articles should (and mostly do) already call out any particularly special destinations. For example, the Wikitravel:Accommodation listings page states that accommodations should be formatted as:

• Name of Place, Address (extra directions if necessary), phone number (email, fax, other contact if possible), [1]. Days and times open. One to three sentences about the service, atmosphere, view, rooms, what have you. $lowprice-$highprice (extra price info).

If a hotel or sight is just so spectacular that it has to to be seen, mention it in the description. For some articles we even single out "must-see" destinations in the first paragraph of the article - take a look at Agra for an example. I just don't see how adding yet another heading, and one that will be endlessly debated, will really improve the usefulness of articles. -- Ryan 12:13, 19 March 2006 (EST)

The challenge is to provide information in large-city guides that are still immature, such as Bombay. In a mature guide like Bangkok, where there are a fairly large number of contributors and editors, the best destinations remain and the rest get filtered out. In the case of low volume contributors, the template needs to encourage contributors by not requiring them to feed in a lot of data; and providing focused direction. Keep in mind that many contributors are not yet tuned into the fact that this is a travel guide and needs to be from the perspective of being useful to tourists. They end up contributing informative listings which does not keep the TA (Target Auidence) in mind. Possibly a section like Insider's Guide or a better titled one like "Tourist Must Dos" will tune in contributors and get from them the very special contributions that can build Wikitravel into the guide it is intented to be. I even suggest a seperate template for high contribution destinations from low contribution ones Rehanyarkhan 12:46, 20 March 2006 (EST)

I don't see any need to expand the current structure. I really doubt that the problem is contributors holding back information that might be elicited with a fancy new heading category ; rather most places are lacking in listings simply because there are few or no contributors that have been there or know them well enough. I for one pretty much dump every single lodging, restaurant, and sight I come across in destinations, even ones which are obscure and less-than-stellar. In doing so I never feel restricted in what I can/should include -- everything goes under the Eat/Drink, Sleep, and Do/See sections. And my impression is that there are very few articles with a glut of listings that need to be trimmed to remove the well-known and overrated for the obscure "Insider's Choices". Places (sights, restaurants, hotels) that really are outstanding should stand on their own, and there's no need to force a rank or recommendation on them.

"Keep in mind that many contributors are not yet tuned into the fact that this is a travel guide and needs to be from the perspective of being useful to tourists."

OK, all Wikitravellers who are not aware that this a travel guide raise your hand... :) And seriously, the target audience is not just tourists, i.e., short-term pleasure travellers. I've written a lot of material on places I've been on long-term business trips, and in such situations, knowing where the post office and internet cafes are may be more important than the off-beat museums and bars.

I also think that the exclusivity of the heading "Insider's Choice" might cause apprehension in new contributors. After all, who are the implied "outsiders", and how can they contribute? -- Paul Richter 01:53, 22 March 2006 (EST)

Agree with Paul. If you want an opinionated guide to the best things in a city, then write an city itinerary like One day in Bangkok. Jpatokal 02:00, 22 March 2006 (EST)

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Wikitravel is not graining much traction. You need to figure out how to make it no. 1 in Travel. I don't think anyone uses Wikitravel as a destination guide, even for fully fleshed out destinations. In my opinion the templates are far too neutral ever to become a guide. And yes, a guide does differ from an information resource. I think itenaries are a great idea and the kind of thing required. Make them a standard part of every template. Rehanyarkhan 14:03, 23 March 2006 (EST)

According to the web stats, we're more than doubling in traffic nearly every six months, so the statement "Wikitravel is not gaining much traction" seems a bit harsh, if not completely inaccurate. The consensus so far seems to be that the existing templates cover your ideas for "Insider's Choice". That said, you are welcome to find other ways to add more "opinion" to articles - the official policy is to be fair, so if a place is great, say so. If it's crowded and overpriced, say so. See Walnut Creek for one example of a Wikitravel article that is fair yet opinionated, and plunge forward to create others. -- Ryan 15:06, 23 March 2006 (EST)

Further to this, is there yet a way within destination places, esp. cities, to explore aspects that may be considered niche by some and not by others, such as live music, LGBT activities/attitudes, 'alternative' areas? Do people feel this kind of thing shouldn't necessarily be included in Wikitravel, should be broadly summarised under the destination description, or that there may or may not be a cause for some kind of new way of putting this information accross. I'm guessing from what I've seen on here that the second of the three will be favoured, but was wondering if anyone had any ideas? (No more bongos 10:43, 20 July 2006 (EDT))

[edit] Needed? Attribution/Credits section

I think we need an additional section to record attribution/credits/permission of text brought in from other compatible sources (such as World66, for instance). Recording that on talk pages as proposed here may be useful for other contributors to know the content inserted is not copyrighted material before we delete/revert it etc. I think, however, that it's not really useful when it comes to:

1. Article printouts, because their talk pages normally won't be printed too.
2. Users that are unfamiliar with Wikitravel, because our current credits footer can be leading people to think those are the only authors, when in fact they're not.

Or maybe that credits section doesn't have to be part of every article, but it should be required by our guidelines to figure at least on those that have imported content. What do you think? Ricardo (Rmx) 11:46, 29 March 2006 (EST)

I strongly think that this should be put into RDF code. I will amend the bottom-of-the-page credits generation to use source and author information from a template ("Template:Source"). I really strongly dislike the idea of giving attribution for external authors in a different way from internal authors; it's not only unfair, but might even be a licensing issue. --Evan 12:34, 29 March 2006 (EST)

[edit] Suggestion: New field for nearby locations

Swept in from the Pub:

For people unfamiliar with the geography of towns they visit on this site, I think it would be a good idea to have another sections "nearest places" much like Wiki does for city entries. This would then list links to other places that have entries on this site so one can plan road trips etc.

This is especially useful for small towns. A user may not be interested in what just one town has to offer, but being able to hotlink to other towns nearby and identifying what all the towns provide together makes one more likely to visit the area and plan their excursions... Dawtcalm 09:35, 3 Feb 2006 (EST)dawtcalm

The "Get out" section of each article is meant for nearby destinations. See Wikitravel:Article templates for discussions of templates and what each section is used for, and this discussion for comments about why the section is called "Get out". -- Ryan 12:08, 3 Feb 2006 (EST)

[edit] Adding the quick templates to this project page

As an idea, couldn't we replace the "quick version" link with the template code, as this is an even quicker way to do a template? -- DanielC 13:42, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

It'd probably make the page too big, I think. --Evan 14:16, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

I've had a go on User:DanielC/Templates. It doesn't seem much different in size terms and more closely follows what experienced people actually do on the site. It could hopefully encourage a few more first time users to use templates. The links to the longhand quick templates still exist, but on the full template pages. -- DanielC 16:58, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

Oh! I thought you meant to put the full text of the quick templates for each kind of article onto the page. No, that's fine. How about having the links to the quick versions and the subst: style? --Evan 20:28, 9 April 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Templates for hiking trails

I've got it! It';s called wikioutdoors! [[2]] Nankai 21:52, 25 February 2007 (EST)

I just wrote a brief page for the french GR 10 trail, and couldn't find a template for a hiking trail. This is a 7 week hike, and for people sleeping in tents, eating out of their backpacks, I don't think the usual template should apply. There are a lot of trails out there, such as the Appalachian_Trail and Pacific Crest Trail in the US and the many Grande Randonnées in Europe. Do people have any ideas? And, should Trail, a city in Canada, be changed to Trail_Canada if we want to have a section on hiking trails? bcnstony 03:15, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

See Wikitravel:Itinerary article template for how this is currently handled. There is an article started for Appalachian Trail already, but be careful - while the Appalachian and Pacific Crest Trails might deserve their own articles, it's probably not appropriate to create an article for every walking path out there. See Talk:Flower Ridge Trail for a previous attempt that kind of fizzled out. -- Ryan 03:23, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

Also see Wikitravel talk:What is an article?#A Comprehensive Travel Guide? -- Ryan 03:30, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

See also "trekking" at the bottom of this page. Somebody should move it up here.Nankai 03:52, 25 January 2007 (EST)

I also think we need a trail template, I think short little walks are "travel" so it's ok for wikitravel to describe them. I don't really get the idea why little day trips don't count. My one is Careys Creek Track Nankai 03:52, 25 January 2007 (EST)

[edit] New article type suggestion

Swept in from the Pub:

I was walking around in Paris today and found a great walking path from central Paris to Chateau de Vincennes in an eastern suburb. My immediate thought was: 'I want to tell other people about this on Wikitravel!' But, as I see it, we don't have any place to put such info...

I therefore suggest that we create a 'Walk'/'Stroll'/(insert better name suggestion here) type of article as a sub-article to cities. The layout could be about the same as Itiniraries and the articles could include photos, recommended stops, etc.

What do you think? Comments, suggestions? -- Jelse 13:20, 1 April 2006 (EST)

I think Itiniraries would already cover that. Or if the walking path is very short, just add it as something to "Do" within the city/district. -- Ilkirk 13:27, 1 April 2006 (EST)

Yeah, "walking tours" are a very nice way to see a city or part of one. I think this fits in nicely with itineraries, since a) it's directed and b) it will have waypoints. Jelse, why don't you get it started, and let's see how it goes? --Evan 13:37, 1 April 2006 (EST)

OK, plunging forward. I started the Walk to Vincennes itinerary. I have limited internet access at present but expect it to grow in the coming weeks. -- Jelse 10:06, 3 April 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Other races

you should add a section for other races for countries such as. what the countrys residents are like towards other races or religous groups maybe?.

I don't think we need to create a new section for this, because there are already good places for this information. When the situation is bad enough to possibly affect visitors' safety or make them very uncomfortable, this sort of information is included under "Stay safe". When it's simply a matter of pointing out to visitors how to avoid offending the locals due to religious differences (and getting treated badly in response), it's covered under "Respect". If it's particularly difficult for a visitor to practice his religion (e.g. vegetarian diet, dress code, sabbath observance) that might be mentioned under "Cope" or "Understand", but that's the kind of thing that the individual would mostly have to look out for himself, since we can't anticipate what those needs might be. - Todd VerBeek 08:30, 13 July 2006 (EDT)

ok thanks

[edit] Trekking template

Slowly we are getting more articles covering long treks, but currently there is no adequate template. The itinerary template, for example, doesn't have options for 'sleep', 'eat' or 'cities/villages', nor does it offer provision to add info on climate, fauna and forna or permit or fee requirements. Personally, I think a combination of 'National Park' and 'Itinerary' template would cover most eventualities. Anyway, if people think that a template specifically designed for trekking is useful, I'd be happy to make an attempt, but if not, then...well I won't - thoughts? WindHorse 12:49, 19 October 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Article lead

The first section of the country article does not have a heading. This is where you should put identifying information about the country, so that the traveler has some idea what you're talking about. Try to link to the continent or continental section the country is in. Rough borders for the country, and names of neighboring countries, give context here, too. You can pull off a few sentences of interesting tidbits, but try to leave detailed information on history, culture, etc., for the Understand section.

A guideline like this makes the typical article start in a very boring way. Discuss. — Ravikiran 05:09, 8 February 2007 (EST)

[edit] Quick versions = Template:X?

Should the "quick version X" articles just be redirected straight to Template:X, which have the same content and are used by the handy new article creator? Eg. I thought I fixed a type on Wikitravel:Quick phrasebook template, but it was still popping up from Template:Phrasebook. Jpatokal 06:24, 19 February 2007 (EST)

Bump. Jpatokal 12:06, 23 February 2007 (EST)

Agree. — Ravikiran 12:07, 23 February 2007 (EST)

I disagree. As I understand it, the quick version is for copy-and-paste, so it shows things wrapped in a nowiki-pre combo (I think). It might be possible to automatically import the template, though, either with normal template processing or in a "subst". --Evan 12:23, 23 February 2007 (EST)

[edit] More article templates?

could we not have article templates or a template for attractions? foe example:

• theme parks and zoos etc
  
• Gardens
  
• Castles - since they are often tourism hotspots and may dominate a towns page
  
• Or anything else people want to think?
  

anyone support me? or other ideas?

Thanks Jack ( User:ProfJack )

I think all those you mentioned can be handled quite well within a city/town article as they are now. The same goes for most other attractions one can think off, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between and are handled successfully on an individual basis. --NJR_ZA 17:53, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

"Attractions" is a key word that usually means "not a good subject for an article" on Wikitravel. Information about attractions goes in the articles for the destinations they are in. While a nearby castle may be the main tourism draw for a small towns, there isn't much need for it to dominate its article, because detailed information about individual sites is beyond the scope of this project. Our goal is to give people enough information to plan and execute their visit, so for a castle, we'd include a description, directions, cost of admission, hours, that sort of thing, and let the site's brochures, guides, and the visitor's own exploration handle the rest. Unless an attraction is so large and complex as to offer on-site lodging, dining alternatives, and so on (e.g. Disneyland) there isn't enough information within the scope of Wikitravel to fill out an article. - Todd VerBeek 18:23, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Itinerary template

I would like to add a quick-add version of the itinerary template to MediaWiki:Newarticletext, but Template:Itinerary is already in use as a note that goes on top of itinerary articles notifying that it's an itinerary. Would anyone object if I moved that notification template to something else (perhaps Template:isItinerary), and turned Template:Itinerary into an article template, so that it matches the rest of the article templates? There's a couple hundred articles already using the Itinerary banner that would need updating, which I don't mind doing, but wanted to hear feedback first. It would be simpler to just name the itinerary article template something else, but then it wouldn't be consistent with the other templates. – cacahuate ^talk 16:30, 7 July 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Article Templates Vs Good English

When I wrote my first - and possibly last - WikiTravel page I was surprised to see the Wikitravel:Article_templates. I hesitated about contributing, but then I thought the headings were so inappropriate that everyone would probably be ignoring them. I went ahead, uh, plunged forward, and did my article.

There was an 'Introduction' which someone immediately changed it to Understand and an 'Information' section (the local tourist information office) which was changed to Contact. I mentioned somewhere that I was unenthusiastic about the "jokey (and in some cases inaccurate) headings" and received a little (virtual) tap on my shoulder from a 'friend'.

. . . I would highly recommend that you use your time on something other than trying to change article section headers. While you are perfectly within your rights to do so, it is extremely unlikely that you will succeed in building a consensus for any changes because the benefit of any change will be very small relative to the cost of changing our headers throughout ~9,000 articles. So, you're not alone in thinking the vague imperatives are weird, me too. But trying to get them changed just isn't a good way to use your energy here.

Hmm. Not the kind of advice I like. (Vaguely reminded me of a scene from On the Waterfront or was it The Godfather?) I like wasting energy (keeps my weight down) and my Scots side rebels against taking the easy way out when it's expressly indicated to me. 9,000 articles is no big deal. I've been involved in a project developing 3,500 articles on Wikipedia. Managing them all is not an insuperable problem, though this isn't the place for technicalities.

Evan writes (16 July 2006) "I don't think there are rules in English for how you title chapter and page section headings." Not really true. There is good English and bad English - and that applies to headings as much as text! Grammar still applies! There are a number of different ways of doing headings - using simple nouns is the easiest and most basic - but consistency in grammar and tone is essential if the reader is to use them, efficiently and transparently, to locate information.

Unfortunately the present headings are neither consistent or simple. They are also difficult to understand! Instead of reading the heading to understand the text, you have to read the text to understand the heading! (Given that they are unpunctuated, many of them will be read as nouns rather than imperatives.)

Let's look at the city headings, one by one:

• Understand - imperative - threatening (‘’Just leave Chicago by the first train, OK? Understand?). What is it supposed to mean here? The reader won't know.

• Get in - imperative - vaguely threatening, but what does it mean? Get in what?

• Get around - imperative - a slang expression from somewhere? ("Hey Joe, I've just been in Milwaukee!" - "Get around!").

• See / Do - imperatives - understandable but awkward.

• Learn - imperative - Learn what? Local traffic signs? Local pickup expressions?

• Work - noun or imperative? - will be read as a noun.

• Buy / Eat - imperatives - understandable but 'Cave man' level communication (as noted above).

• Budget / Mid-range / Splurge - nouns, imperatives - Inconsistent in tone. Budget / Mid-range are 'plain' words which will be read as nouns. Splurge will be understood as an (unpunctuated) slang imperative.

• Drink - noun (slang?) or imperative? - Only bars? No dancing for example?

• Sleep - noun or imperative? -

• Contact - noun or imperative? - Contact who? Why? Emergencies? Tourist offices? Free accommodation with English speakers? A list of phone numbers?

• Stay safe - imperative -

• Cope - imperative - Don’t we all! But what does this mean here? Cope with what? Language? Dirty clothes? Paternity suits?

• Get out - imperative - Why? Emergency exit routes for people who don't pay their hotel bills? Or for WikiTravel editors who offend 'The Consensus'?

Comments? Missiles? Nukes from Jpatokal? Have a good day to all! -- Kleinzach 23:13, 6 August 2007 (EDT)

Well, first off you can refer to me as a friend w/o quotes if you like and that really just was friendly advice because, while I do agree with you on all your points, I just don't think that a) you will gain support for such a major change and b) I selfishly hope that you will instead write some more excellent destination guides ;) I don't know, perhaps such a change could be done via a script, but that's not an area I know anything about. In any rate, I would like to be clear that policy challenges are welcome and encouraged here; my "time-waste" advice was purely pragmatic.

On a related note, I came up initially with section headings for the new Russian language version similar to the English ones, and our Russian contributors have objected with basically the same rationale that Kleinzach has outlined above. I tend to agree, and think that there are stylistically very superior options available, but would like to hear if anyone over here thinks that we should maintain the WT vague imperatives that are established on this and the other versions that I can read. --Peter ^Talk 03:18, 7 August 2007 (EDT)

I agree that such a set of headings looks quite odd in Russian, but maybe it's only a matter of a good translation, which we didn't reach in :ru yet.

Personally, I don't find some of the headings in :en as intuitive enough (like Splurge instead of Highend, or Drink "includes coffee shops? and place to dance?", or Cope "what exactly it includes", or Work and Learn "why we welcome both, but don't welcome active outdoor adventures"), but maybe it's only my poor knowledge of English? On the other hand, I realize that using standard set of headings you can find in any paper travel guide will add boredom to Wikitravel. --DenisYurkin 17:39, 7 August 2007 (EDT)

Just for comparison, but Lonely Planet, the world's soon to be second most successful travel guide, uses section headers similar to ours. I don't see a problem with the current headings, especially when you consider Wikitravel is not course material for English Grammar 101. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 15:55, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Well, typical Lonely Planet sections (based on four guidebooks) are: Introduction, Facts for the visitor, Getting there and away, Getting around, Things to see and do, Places to stay, Places to eat, Entertainment, Shopping, Excursions, Language. So these are not similar to those used by WikiTravel. They are fairly standard guidebook headings - clear, unambiguous, and in good English, transparent to the reader who wants a bed for the night rather than a cute subheading. (In the last Lonely Planet Guide to Japan, the big city sections have: Orientation, Information, Sights, Activities, Tours, Fesival and events, Sleeping, Eating, Drinking, Entertainment, Shopping, Getting there and away, Getting around. A bit less standard, but still not like the WikiTravel ones.)

Obviously we shouldn't use the same set as Lonely Planet, but we should use clear, simple, correct English. Sapphire thinks correct English is not important ( . . . Wikitravel is not course material for English Grammar 101.), but correct English is easy to read (especially for non-natives), while bad English makes it more difficult to access information. -- Kleinzach 23:54, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Actually, I do care about correctly using English. However, I think there are a few other areas where the proper usage of English is more important. That said, changing this is likely not to be overwhelmingly difficult with the help of a bot. Before this can be changed, you need to get a consensus from the community to do so, but I'd rather use my energy and the community's energy on writing and improving guides and descriptions. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 00:41, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

P.S. My LP uses headers similar to ours, but that is apparently on a guide-by-guide case. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 00:41, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Aside from "Drink" and "Cope", I think they're all incredibly clear. We're never going to find words that everyone LOVES. If we go with LP ones like "Places to stay" some people will say it's too boring. Someone will find a complaint for just about anything, so at a point, you just need to go with something. What's wrong with "Sleep"? Who cares if it's a noun or an imperative? It's pretty clear what is supposed to go in that area. Any guide you pick up will require a minute of trying to understand their particular format, and I really don't think Wikitravel is that hard to decipher. Also keep in mind that on Huge City articles we have districts... so the sleep section needs to have a title that makes sense on the main page which will just be a quick description of the types of accomodation to expect, and in the district articles, where there will be actual hotels listed. "Places to stay" wouldn't make as much sense then on the main city page, since there then wouldn't be any places to sleep listed below it.

Drink has been debated over a lot, since it is supposed to cover nightlife and well, there's more to do than just drink. Cope is also a little strange, I would agree. The best thing for you to do is to come up with some alternative ideas and propose them, and see if several people agree with you and we can build a consensus to change. If that happens, then we'll need to figure out how to change them, and find someone willing to write a bot. Anyway, if you have ideas, let's hear em! – cacahuate ^talk 01:49, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

I think you'll find that a lot of people feel passionately about the section headings, and it probably splits nearly 50-50 for those who love the current headings and those who strongly dislike the current headings. Over the years there hasn't really been much (read: any) success in coming to an agreement on what better terms to use for any of the headings, and as a result the status quo has been maintained. An unfortunate side effect of having many discussions with no changes to show for them is a significant number of contributors now view the issue as something that's simply unlikely ever to change, which is why you may be receiving advice that building a consensus to change the article headings is likely to be a much less fulfilling endeavor than contributing to the project in other ways. You are of course welcome to try, but it will take some very persuasive and more importantly NEW arguments to create a result that differs from past attempts. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:29, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Ryan, could you please give some references to the previous discussions? I think it might help a bit in understanding whether arguments are new or not. --DenisYurkin 03:07, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

I'm not attached to the current headers one way or another, but I don't remember struggling to understand the different sections the first time I looked at a Wikitravel article (New Orleans). They're window-dressing. I think we can credit our readers with enough intelligence to figure out that 'See' is shorthand for 'Places to see', not someone hiding in their computer and making demands of them. The issue with these headings is one of style, not grammar. Some people like that early 00's minimalism, and others don't. I'm fairly confident that snarky comments could be made about any potential heading. ("Information? What, is this a spy movie? Have you got the information from Lyvbnskya? Places to eat? Who eats places? Can I get some ketchup with these bricks?") A better way to effect a change in consensus would be to propose a full set of alternatives and negotiate forward from there. Gorilla Jones 03:17, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

In response to Denis, the talk pages for most of the article templates (including this talk page) contain discussions about changing headings, and I know that there are other discussions out there. Off the top of my head, some of the arguments people have cited for changing the headings is that they are confusing, bad grammar, dumb, and not descriptive enough. Arguments cited for keeping them have included that they are unique to Wikitravel and help "brand" the content, reflect the irreverent tone of the site, are completely understandable (common comment "'Get in' is the heading describing how you 'get in' to a place"), are different from LP and other travel guides and thus dissuade copying from those guides, and that people "just like them". There is significantly more to be found by reading old talk pages, but hopefully those examples provide an idea of the discussions that have happened in the past. -- Ryan • (talk) • 03:59, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Before we stop repeating old arguments... "Get out" is rotten and no one understands it unless they are looking at an already-filled out section. And "Drink" stink. --Peter ^Talk 04:03, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

See Wikitravel talk:Big city article template#Get out --> Nearby for a discussion about the pros and cons of "Get out". That's the discussion that earned me my asbestos pants on this site. -- Ryan • (talk) • 12:07, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Developing a discussion like this one to a satisfactory conclusion is always difficult. If there is a consensus that the present headings are not ideal, then we should look at possible alternatives, trying to identify a set that is broadly acceptable. Is there a consenus to do that? If so:

Proposal: that we write a set of city headings (set A, set B etc.) in a new section. After we have some complete sets we can consider them (and if necessary make changes to them), trying to reach agreement on a series of headings that are suited to WikiTravel. Does that seem reasonable? -- Kleinzach 05:12, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Some days it seems incredible to me that anything gets done around here, much less redone. OldPine 07:03, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Sorry. That wasn't even snarky enough to register, and really not helpful. But hey, I'm old. What seems to be needed here, and in many other instances is a simple user poll. Probably one for each heading in this case. I don't see that "complete sets" are necessarily called for and agree that some headings are "incredibly clear" as stated above. However I repeat the call above for actual suggestions. Otherwise, I feel we've covered this. (You guys make me proud. Think I'll take the day off.) OldPine 07:23, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

David, you are a trip. By the way, I hope you enjoyed your day off. -- Sapphire • (Talk) • 06:56, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

See my comments above - there isn't a consensus that the present headings are not ideal. There really are a lot of contributors who really, really like the current headings and don't want to see them changed. -- Ryan • (talk) • 12:07, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

I attempted to write my requested-for "nuke" earlier, but it was re-nuked by highly reliable Internet connections here in India. Let me try again before the lights do that neat strobe effect, the TV says "pop!" and the UPS starts beeping again.

So... attempting to dissect headings from a grammatical point of view is kind of misguided. Do you find "iPod"'s implication that you are an organ of alien asexual reproduction offensive? Am I mortally insulted that "youTube" is comparing me to plumbing supplies? No, they're just snappy, memorable and unique, just like Wikitravel's headings. (And I'd even posit that WT headings make a lot more sense at first glance.)

I would be in favor of renaming the perennially misunderstood "Get out" to something else, although there isn't much consensus as to what that something else would be. "Move on"? Jpatokal 13:05, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

"Onward"? Gorilla Jones 12:07, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

"Next stop" or "Next move" - ? ~ 202.71.45.37 07:38, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Template suggestions

Here are four suggestions. They are in sets - the headings need to be consistent in tone and form, also it should make for an easier decision process. -- Kleinzach 11:13, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

• Style A, Simple nouns: Introduction, Access from abroad, Local transport, Sights, Activities, Resources, Shopping, Restaurants, Accommodation, Night life and entertainment, Information and internet access, Safety, Troubleshooting, Excursions + Low end, Mid range, High end
  • My preferred option - simple, unambiguous, transparent. -- Kleinzach 11:13, 10 August 2007 (EDT)
    • Those are incredibly ambiguous (and boring). "Get in" isn't for access "from abroad", it's for access from anywhere else: the other side of the street, the next town or the other side of the planet. "Information" and "Resources" are thoroughly meaningless. "Troubleshooting"? Is this a guide to debugging your PC? Jpatokal 13:05, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

No one understands what 'Get in' means, hence I didn't either. But this is missing the point here. We are talking about a style (using nouns) not individual headings which can be made appropriate to the content if we know what it is. -- Kleinzach 05:37, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Take a look at Wikitravel:Huge city article template — the long version, with explanations — if you're still confused by what's supposed to go where. But my actual point, which also applies to "Style B", was that I'm not at all convinced that "simple nouns" or "-ing forms" have a major leg up on our current "simple verbs". Jpatokal 11:10, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

We can't expect readers (or writers for that matter) to read template explanations. -- Kleinzach 11:55, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Nobody understands 'Get in'? My mother always said that I was special, but there's the evidence, because I don't recall stopping in bewilderment at those two words. Or is it not just me? I definitely don't mind asking writers to do the simple mental calculus to figure out what the sections mean. Consider it a screening process. I could handle 'Get there' an alternative, but 'Get in' is fine to me. Gorilla Jones 12:07, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

• Style B, -ing forms: Introducing Minsk (or wherever), Getting there, Getting around, Seeing the sights, Pursuing outdoor activities, Shopping, Eating, Finding accommodation, Drinking and dancing, Getting information and internet access, Staying safe, Solving problems, Going further + Slumming, Staying mid-range, Splurging
  • Mm, "pursuing" and "staying mid-range" -- I can hardly contain my frisson of excitement. Plus half of those are copyvios from LP. Jpatokal 13:05, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

So LP are selectively copyrighting the English language? No, I don't think so. Many guidebooks have used these forms in the past. Also headings are not supposed to be thrilling, any more than road signs are supposed to be. -- Kleinzach 05:45, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Slumming is terrible - not all hotels in the 'Budget' category are crappy (and if they are, they shouldn't be listed here in the first place). If you thought splurge was bad, why is its present continuous form (which I have never seen used) any better? Drinking and dancing leaves almost as much uncovered as Drink does. Solving problems? Why can't these people solve their own problems? Up by yer own bootstraps, people. Gorilla Jones 12:07, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

• Style C, Local language (as appropriate) + English: Introduzione/Introduction, Come arrivare/International access, Come spostarsi/Local transport, Da vedere/Sights, Attività/Activities, Acquisti/Shopping, Ristorante/Restaurants, Vita notturna/Night life, Alloggio/Accommodation, Sicurezza personale/Safety, Escursioni/Excursions etc. (my Italian is poor but that's the general idea)
  • This is the English Wikitravel, why on earth should we stick other languages in the headings, of all places? Jpatokal 13:05, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Because it could be useful? Many of us try to speak the local language when we travel. It would also be original and make WikiTravel more distinctive. -- Kleinzach 05:51, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

And what do we do for destinations where English is the main language? This would also be tons of fun to attempt to lay down and enforce for the umpteen thousand languages on the planet, esp. when you've got a place like Singapore which has 4 official languages. Jpatokal 11:10, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Use common sense? It works well enough on Wikipedia! -- Kleinzach 04:33, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

You didn't answer the question. So to state the obvious, "style C" doesn't actually apply to any English-speaking destinations, you'd still need to adopt one of the others as a "base" style. Jpatokal 09:53, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

Plus it would be a pain in the ass to write links directly to article headers, like Kyoto#Buy. One virtue of keeping brief section headings is preventing the Table of Contents from covering most of the top of the page. Gorilla Jones 12:07, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

• Style D, Sentence (FAQ) style: Why should I go there? How do I get there? How do I get around? What are the main sights? etc. etc.
  • Why do I think this is silly? Perhaps because it's hard to read and a waste of space? Could there be a consensus against this? Jpatokal 13:05, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Waste of space? What space? This is the internet not a book! (But it is wordy and so wouldn't be my choice.) -- Kleinzach 05:58, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I think you missed the news a few days back =) Jpatokal 11:10, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Yes, I'm just beginning to catch up with all this now (including the breakaway of WikiVoyage). Does this mean the whole of WikiTravel will be commercialized? -- Kleinzach 04:31, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

Umm... It will be commercialized by anyone who feels like using our content for commercial goals. Same goes for WikiVoyage, seeing as both sites use a copyleft (like Wikipedia's) that allows anyone to use their content for any purpose, provided it remains in the commons and is properly attributed. In any rate, one of the principal goals of Wikitravel is to be easily used in print format; this makes sense, being that it is a travel guide. --Peter ^Talk 05:20, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

Wow. I second Jpatokal's analyses. And I feel much better about the existing headings now. Thanks. OldPine 21:20, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

To OldPine: You asked for suggestions and I've attempted a broad approach to finding a generally-acceptable solution. Maybe the ideas are good, maybe they aren't . . . (The present set obviously don't qualify given the opposition to them in the past.) So would you like to return the compliment by jumping off your stump and having a go yourself? -- Kleinzach 09:12, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

No, as I am fine with the current set and do not see them as "not qualifying". You were the one wanting change. If you demand change you need to offer solutions. That was the point. Thanks for offering them. I feel you were initially given good advice preceded by a tap on the shoulder (or was that already clear). OldPine 09:29, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Kleinzach, thanks for making the effort to offer alternatives headings, but I also prefer to stick with the original, except perhaps for changing 'Get out' to something clearer. WindHorse 10:06, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Good on you for coming up with alternatives, as was suggested, but I don't see those as preferable. Gorilla Jones 12:07, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Conclusion

I started this discussion, so it's appropriate for me to bring it to a close.

I will not after all be contributing to WikiTravel - I wouldn't write for any publication that turned my prose into grunts - however as an exploration of group dynamics this discussion has had positive as well as negative aspects. It has been revealing!

To anyone considering joining WikiTravel I'd recommend checking it out before starting to write, also looking at the alternatives, in particular the local City wikis. My guess is that the future lies with them.

Goodbye WikiTravel! -- Kleinzach 05:03, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

Let's see: you proposed changing the article headings of 17,000 articles that 19,019 registered users have worked on for over three years, and you didn't manage to get anybody to support any of your proposed alternatives, so now you're taking your marbles and going home. Yes, this does indeed tell you something about group dynamics, but not necessarily what you intended... Jpatokal 07:24, 11 October 2007 (EDT)

Scribimus indocti doctique (People who can write, can't necessarily read!). Quite a lot of people here have agreed with me. Maybe some of them are no longer around? The 11 extracts are all from this page - no need to go further!

• Why don't we use Eating, Seeing, Understanding, etc. instead of Eat, See, Understand, etc.? (Anon 20 May 2004)
• I would prefer the present continuous form. . . .Colin Angus Mackay 02:29, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)
• . . . the Get out header seems to generate the most problems . . . Colin (Jensen) 03:19, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)
• Get out has been causing problems, and so I would like to consider switching to Get away, and then perhaps switch Drink to Get out maybe... -- Mark 03:24, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)
• I would still prefer to change the headings to something more meaningful. The current, imperative, form seems to much like a drill instructor barking commands. . . . Colin Angus Mackay 15:01, 24 Jun 2005 (EDT)
• It is bad English. Is this the English version or the Cave-man version? Terry 20:40, 9 Aug 2005 (EDT)
• 'Get In' is definitely bad English' - you can't 'get in' a country or a city. . . . Anon 00:30, 17 Jul 2006 (EDT)
• I came up initially with section headings for the new Russian language version similar to the English ones, and our Russian contributors have objected with basically the same rationale that Kleinzach has outlined above. I tend to agree, and think that there are stylistically very superior options available . . . --Peter ^Talk 03:18, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
• I don't find some of the headings in :en as intuitive enough (like Splurge instead of Highend, or Drink "includes coffee shops? and place to dance?", or Cope "what exactly it includes", or Work and Learn . . . --DenisYurkin 17:39, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
• Cope is also a little strange. . . cacahuate ^talk 01:49, 10 August 2007 (EDT)
• "Get out" is rotten and no one understands it unless they are looking at an already-filled out section. And "Drink" stink. --Peter ^Talk 04:03, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Jpatokal will now wish to have his customary last word.

I only get the last word if you stop responding. =P But I'll note that you forgot this tidbit:

I would be in favor of renaming the perennially misunderstood "Get out" to something else. Jpatokal 13:05, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

Shock horror, I actually agree with you that "Get out" is unclear, and would be happy to change it! There's even a big ol' debate where I and a bunch of other regulars lock horns with Evan over the issue. Problem is, nobody has yet figured out a better name... Jpatokal 03:56, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

As you are good on statistics, Jpatokal, tell us: How many editors have you lost in the past year in this kind of debacle? How many editors have logged on and then given up? How many editors have left and gone over to other sites, including notably WikiVoyage? -- Kleinzach 02:05, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm fairly sure you're the only one who has ever decided to leave in a huff over the section headings, but feel free to prove me wrong. Consensus is a tricky beast: as they say, you can make everybody happy some of the time, or some people happy all the time, but you can't make everybody happy all the time... Wikis lose contributors all the time and it's very hard to figure out why.

And, in an odd way, I'm happy Wikivoyage exists. Competition is always good, and the threat of another site stealing WT's lunch is what keeps our corporate masters in line. Jpatokal 03:56, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Internet access as a standard section

Hey, I would like to see Internet access (cafe's, call shops) as a standard section of templates, maybe a subsection of do, or get around. Why? Well, because, when the online guide takes itself serious, this is the first point where one could plan further travels. For me it my most used tool. But then, of course, it is interesting to have online where to find the internet cafe, and you need to know where the internet cafe is to go online. But travellers might make a print out of the place they are going to, or maybe put wikitravel in their portable device or so. And then it is handy to have an address to go online. So what do you think?

Daniel - from Civitavecchia - I walked around for hours to get into this cafe 88.44.122.242 15:36, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

There actually is a standard section for internet hotspots and cafes, and it is "Contact." Unfortunately this information is often missing, so do everyone a favor and put up the address of the cafe you're at! --Peter ^Talk 16:03, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Hm, but it isnt in the template. Theres little incentive for people who make new pages to add it. x 88.44.122.242 16:19, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

You're right, it's missing from the small city template. I'll fix that pronto. --Peter ^Talk 16:30, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Get out

I'd like to confirm the following guidelines for "Get out" section listings:

1. Should not use the Wikitravel:Listings#Listing tag (listing tag example)
2. Should use the Wikitravel:One-liner listings format (like Regions, Districts, Cities)
3. Should be limited to nine, per the logic behind Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy#Dividing geographical units (too long example)
4. Should contain no external links as these belong in the article being linked to

Please comment if you think otherwise - thanks. ~ 203.144.143.4 02:48, 20 January 2008 (EST)

I agree on three of the points. Listings tags should be out as this is an example of a one liner list (so yes, we should apply the one liner listings formatting guidelines). I strongly agree that we should not allow external links in the get out section, as that encourages contributors to not create the corresponding article.

But I'll disagree with the limit of 9 suggested destinations. A major destination like London often serves as a hub for travel, and in my opinion, the Get Out section should be extensive. I'd recommend instead that we mandate subdivision of the Get out list, as we do with Wikitravel:Accommodation_listings#Avoid_long_lists Sleep listings (based on Wikitravel_talk:Accommodation_listings#Avalanche_of_hotel_listings this long, but productive discussion). I would venture that the best way to subdivide Get out lists is by region (which also allows us to link surrounding regions)—the Chicago guide provides a useful example. --