Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

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The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

  • If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

Wikitravel Upgrade[edit]

Our site upgraded in June 2016!
We're happy to announce that Wikitravel has been updated to the latest version of mediawiki. We'd appreciate any help to catch and fix any bugs resulting from the update! Simply report bugs on our shared site.

Some of the new changes include:

  • an updated edit toolbar
  • an updated user toolbar
  • notifications
  • table of contents on banners now have dropdowns with sub-sections
  • multimedia galleries on every page
  • a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly
  • many small performance and efficiency changes

ideas for group travel, family that does not get together much[edit]

HI What a fabulous project! I cannot believe I never found this before. Some of my family wants to get together more often and we are trying to organize a group trip, 5 or so days, prepaid food options, lots of activities, and I don't think we care where we go but some need to keep the costs down. Most of the family is in the north east. Any one have suggestions about places to go, cruises to try, etc.

Hi there! If I had to make a suggestion, I would say Vermont! It's beautiful there and relatively less costly than a lot of places in New England. IBJoel (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Vermont is a great suggestion - especially during foliage. You can check out activities and tours in different locations at - should help you get inspired!

Hello! Ignore having family trips during Spring months March and April because of Spring Breakers. Cabo San Lucas has many beach hotels with cheap all-inclusive packages and fun water attractions for the kids. Puerto Peñasco aka Rocky Point has many affordable beach houses to rent. Catalina Island is chalk full of family visitors and easily noticeable activities all along the beach. I suggest renting a house or condo near the main city of Avalon. Catalina is my top preference for you because of the darling city and the family-friendly environment. IBrobin (talk) 16:12, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Re: Appearance of external links / Front-Linked listings[edit]

I am a new user and trying to find an answer to what I think is a simple question: What format should external links have? This is one of the most basic things that people would do in the wiki (adding links to sites) and yet I'm seeing an incongruity between formatting and policy. As it stands in the external links help page [1] we should add labels to web pages and I'm fine with that, but then when I use the code for listings (e.g. " < sleep name="Test Listing" address="" phone="" fax="" url="" price="">Description.</sleep > " ) it automatically goes back to footnotes and I can't seem to change it.

I would not bring this up if it was a recent issue but people have been talking about this (using / not using footnotes; replacing the number of the footnote with a nice icon [2]) since 2007 and yet the code is still doing its same old thing.

As a new user, trying to add info to the site and then having to spend hours (trying to figure out what's going on with external links and why I can't get them to display in the way that I've been told to display them) seems very counter productive and demotivating. It makes me wonder how many other laymen have tried to make changes to pages and then just end up abandoning the whole thing cause guidelines don't match what's really going on and it all just takes to long to find an answer. Latest discussion I've seen about this, just makes it seem as if nothing is being changed and so what [3]

Similarly, the whole discussion about front linked listings has been going on since before 2005 [4] with no clear resolution in the primary guides (help file) on formatting (from what I can see, correct me if I'm wrong). Whilst I at first preferred front links for their aesthetic and simplicity, reading other people's counterpoints make it clear why front links aren't a good idea: As stated by Texugo 21:52, 17 July 2007 (EDT) [5], he points out how some listings appear worse because they don't have hyperlinks or that having longer hyperlinks (thanks to the hyperlinked name being longer) would make them more likely to be clicked.

If icons were to be used (a nice globe icon, easily recognizable as world wide web) this wouldn't need to be a discussion and the points raised would be resolved, using footnotes does solve the issue but people also complain about the aesthetics of it etc. Rhetorical (talk) 14:17, 23 May 2016 (EDT)

Cannot edit my own user page[edit]

Hi I am trying to edit my user page while logged in. I have just created an account so that might be the issue. Error is "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Dark Tower" Is there anyway this can be fixed?

--Wandering Roman (talk) 03:51, 26 May 2016 (EDT)

Hi Wandering Roman, thank you for reaching out here. I've added a test message on your user page just now. Seems okay to me. Can you please try again (please blank my test message) now and let us know if you still have this error? Thank you! --Binbin (talk) 04:19, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry to say that it is still happening. Though I think there is a problem with the back end of the site. Have a look at the Abuse Log and you will see other people are having similar problems.
Thanks for your help. Its very fast.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:24, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Looking at the log more closely looks like it was miss-configured and that this has been a reoccurring problem since 2012, though in 2012 the problem was occurring under the filter named The Beaver. You may want to contact IBobi, the administrator to look at the filter list as from what I have read it can only be fixed by admin/bureaucrat groups on WikiTravel
--Wandering Roman (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Hi, are you trying to add a certain link to your user page? The filter you are mentioning is blocking certain links, if you just add text you should be ok. Let us know what exactly you are trying to add ok? Thanks! Adzas (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
Sorry, Adzas I am not just trying to post some basic information about my self. There are no internal or external links. Thanks for the help tho.
--Wandering Roman (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2016 (EDT)
I have disabled the Dark Tower abuse filter. Thank you for the heads-up, Wandering Roman! IBobi (talk) 15:56, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

Electric vehicle charging stations on Wikitravel/Autonomous vehicles for the future?[edit]

With these types of cars becoming increasingly popular and fully autonomous vehicles quickly becoming reality, should things such as charging stations be listed? In the future, what about autonomous pickup/dropoff locations as well? --Tyen (talk) 12:48, 2 June 2016 (EDT)

I for one hate driving with a passion especially in Los Angeles, the traffic hell of the universe. Charging stations wouldn't be useful listed on pages as they need specific address locations and individual city pages are too vague. Ibrshao (talk)

I don´t know how many of those charging stations would be available in a location, I think a mention that charging stations are available would be beneficial, but individual listings I don´t think that would be needed, it would be like posting all petrol stations in a location. Just my thought.... Adzas (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2016 (EDT)
True, posting them all would be indeed too much. --Tyen (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2016 (EDT)
Did anyone see that news article about the guy taking up three whole charging spots? IBJoel (talk) 12:59, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

New Update Today![edit]

Woohoo, hopefully everything goes smooth! Tyen (talk) 16:36, 7 June 2016 (EDT)

So far, so good I haven't noticed any problems. Has anything been reported so far? Koavf (talk) 09:42, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Luckily not too many issues with the switch! IBJoel (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
Just a bit of spam but not too bad! Tyen (talk) 18:13, 8 June 2016 (EDT)
I do an edit, and write an edit summary, but when I try to save it a pop-up asks me to write a another, separate edit summary. Nurg (talk) 04:45, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Well, sometimes it does it, but not always. When it happens, the heading of the pop-up is "Publish to {{SITENAME}}". Nurg (talk) 04:47, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
Shared This should definitely be posted to the Pub on Shared. That's a serious bug. Koavf (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2016 (EDT)
OK. thanks. Nurg (talk) 05:46, 15 June 2016 (EDT)

Space travel[edit]

When it becomes available at what price point will you partake in space travel. Not the near earth orbit/ vomit comet stuff but actually leave the atmosphere to the moon type stuff. 10 thousand? 20 thousand? Ibrshao (talk)

Honestly, I can't even handle rollercoasters, so I'm not sure how well I'd do when pulling the Gs of space flight. And I mean, there's enough stuff on the planet I need to see IBJoel (talk) 14:02, 9 June 2016 (EDT)
I think once the technology allows the cost to be more reasonable, I'll be willing to spend 1k Tyen (talk) 13:51, 14 June 2016 (EDT)

If you were stranded alone on any island in the world, which island would you want it would be?[edit]

Imagine all islands are now deserted, left only with the remaining amenities left behind by its former dwellers. (think zombie apocalypse) IBrobin (talk) 13:39, 16 June 2016 (EDT)

I'd have to go with the old standard: Hawaii. Lots of rain, lots of sun, great views. I can think of worse places to spend the rest of my life (although hopefully a few other people can stop by, so it's not so lonely haha). IBJoel (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
Judging by google earth, Anuta island (part of the solomon islands) looks pretty cozy! Tyen (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2016 (EDT)
The Americas please!!!!!! Ibrshao (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Bora Bora!!! Adzas (talk) 11:49, 13 September 2016 (EDT)


I just want to ask - what is the criteria for the banner photographs and what they can be of for the articles on Wikitravel? The main thing I noted was a banner photo of the wrong place, as I noted on the talk page! Wetter88 (talk) 12:17, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

Banners Wetter88, there are no hard and fast rules, except for the size and ratio of the photo. It's best to choose something engaging and illustrative and those can change over time if someone finds a better one. Koavf (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
I noticed that the banner picture on the Woking article wasn't in Woking, so I was wondering whether this meant it was invalid as it was the wrong place! Wetter88 (talk) 02:47, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Hi, you're right, the Woking banner is wrong. We will create a new corrected one very soon (unless you want to try and create a new one). Thanks, GiulioC (talk) 05:02, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
Accuracy It's definitely better to have a photo that really represents the place you're going. Personally, I'm not very hung up on it, especially if the photo is of somewhere nearby or comparable. This example is just a busy train station--honestly, I don't think anyone will be disappointed if he gets to Woking and this scene isn't there. Koavf (talk) 09:53, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Fitness Around the World[edit]

I'm US-based, and (especially in California) we have a major fitness sub-culture. Weightlifting, yoga, running, and the outdoors are all very big here. I was wondering about the fitness cultures of other countries and how those display themselves. Like here, running and physique are definitely the major areas, then probably yoga. What about Europe? Asia? How do different countries express their physicality? IBJoel (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2016 (EDT)

I like the British way-- Ibrshao (talk) 17:57, 21 June 2016 (EDT)
Interesting article, to be sure! IBJoel (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2016 (EDT)

Embassy and consulate listings[edit]

What are your thoughts on having the embassy and consulate listings in the "Cope" sections of the main pages of every city? These listings also include code for the flag icons and add a lot bytes to the size of every page. They are also very distracting in the cases of some cities that have over 100 listings in this section and are rarely useful for the average traveler. I don't think many travelers will rely on wikitravel if they run into trouble or need a visa as most countries have a certain procedure for addressing these issues and travelers will visit the webpage of the applicable embassy via a google search. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I agree. I remember in the past we had a discussion about this, let me see what I can find about it. Adzas (talk) 05:09, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
I think that these listings are most useful in the non-capital cities like Denver or Manchester. A traveller might be able get a visa needed for later when in such a city, and would probably not have though of looking for a consulate there. Conversely a list is probably not so useful in London where you would expect almost every country to have an embassy. AlasdairW (talk) 17:14, 6 August 2016 (EDT)
That can be addressed by noting the countries that have embassies/consulates in a single sentence for these smaller cities.

Site usage data[edit]

Hi Folks,

I have a quick question, is it possible to get page view counts for a particular period, from Wikitravel? For example, could I get a list of the top locations that are searched for on WT and associate a location with them? Kind of thinking of a heatmap for WT page popularity for london.

Thanks, Omar

Hi Omar, I'm terribly sorry about the delayed response, but that is a great idea! Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of feature at the moment. However, I will do my best to see if that's something we can implement in the near future. I will most definitely keep you updated and you'll be the first to know! IBkataoka (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

Conflict Photojournalism[edit]

Hello Everyone,

First and foremost I'm aware of the dangers present, please do not convince me not to do this, although you could suggest similar career paths. Lately I've been interested in photographers in poverty/war/conflict stricken areas. I'm not interested in the dangers per se but I am interested how people act in wartime and other dire situations. Let this be a place where we can discuss these things. Is anyone a photojournalist in the first place? Misuta trent (talk) 12:51, 29 August 2016 (EDT)Trent

Hi Misuta! That sounds like a very interesting career path. It reminds me of HONY (Humans of New York) where he interviewed Syrian refugees and American veterans affected by PTSD. It's crazy to think that these amazing/sad/inspirational stories are coming from people we see on the streets. What made you want to pursue this particular career path? IBkataoka (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2016 (EDT)

External Links Style, two interpretations[edit]

Hello. Some time ago i came across 2 different interpretations of external links style policy. Some admins approved the "blue bold clickable“ external link style (avoiding footnotes) and encouraged me to revert footnotes to "blue bold clickable“ style, while some other admins reverted existing "blue bold clickable“ external links back to "footnote“ style. Also deleted some edits by other users who added listings in "blue bold clickable“ style stating it was "bad format“, although it exactly conformed the example presented on WT policy page. Would like to know which interpretation is now valid and correct.

And would like to avoid off-topic comments about external links content, formatting and other policy because i ask about external links style. I know WT policy too, no need to redirect me to those pages which i already know well. Those two opposite interpretations coexist in written policy, it‘s like some of those policy texts are slightly incoplete or something, but when it comes to adding useful info which is encouraged by one admin but deleted by other admin, i start to feel as if WT is busy with anything else but not with creating a proper guide. How to be a useful contributor if even to trust admin is risky. Could someone provide a strict statement which external link style must be used, a "blue bold clickable“ one or a "footnote“ one? Local

And sorry, but where is a "sign" button after the site was upgraded? Local

Hi Local thanks for stopping by! I'm one of new hired admins overseeing Wikitravel from Internet Brands. I'm aware that you previously discussed this issue with several admins and it was brought to my attention by Triskelle not too long ago. Despite some confusion, we are allowed to use both the "blue bold clickable" style and the "footnote" style for listings. Upon discussing this with Triskelle, we decided that it was in our best interest to stick to the footnote style for the Vilnius page. Most listings on this page used a combination of the two formats so I've been fixing it to reflect the footnote style listings. However, the only time footnote styles are not allowed is when a user is trying to link to a source to prove a point or back up a fact. Hope this answers your question! Also you can sign off using "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Let me know if you need more clarifications, I'd be happy to answer them. IBkataoka (talk) 19:36, 16 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for matter-of-fact answer. Vilnius article or not Vilnius article it's irrelevant to me - can you confirm that previous policy change (March 2013) which made a switch from the "footnote" style to the "blue bold clickable" style is not valid anymore (with that exception you pointed out) and the corresponding policy page will be modified accordingly? Now it is only your "private answer" to my "private question", so to speak, i have no reason not to trust your explanation just don't see (so far) how it reflects on written policy (i.e. it does not reflect now). There was similar confusion back in 2013 but the policy page was quickly modified immediately when agreement among admins was met. As for the Vilnius article, you probably don't know all details, it was a Washington, D.C. article (a star one) which was taken as an example of how a nice article should look like. And Vilnius article was formatted after it. Discussions about it can be found in corresponding archived talk page. Can you confirm that Washington, D.C. article, in this respect, now can't be taken as such example? (I assume you do confirm). I ask for those details because there are no other confirmations of what you were discussing with that other admin, only those few lines above. I just want to be sure that i understand correctly. Whether it is this style or that style is irrelevant to me, i just want to be sure which one and that it won't be changed soon to the other one again. So thanks so far for your brief clarification, it is useful. And i assume there is no a "sign button" anymore, one have to sign only manually, is that correct? I'm a bit surprised that after the upgrade one have to do more manual work LOL... Local (talk) 06:58, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
MediaWiki help In case some of how the site works seems confusing, there is a wiki just about the software as well. That site may be able to help you but you can also ask for assistance here. Koavf (talk) 03:14, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks for that link, at least so far i don‘t see how, why and when to use it (i know how to navigate and edit), but there are many (too many) little confusing things (maybe too little to bother admins with), and one, for example, is about recent upgrade, namely it reads above: "a new, easy to use photo upload form that will be live shortly". Is it about the option "Upload a picture" – the WT Shared page opens, then it reads "Upload Wizard" but it‘s pending, nothing happens – is it about it? When i open WT Shared and click "Upload a file" – the same good old upload page opens, it seems everything OK, will it work if i decide to upload a picture? I have uploaded many pictures to WT Shared previously so the "procedure" is no problem, and i have a little pile of new pictures i was going to upload later. Judging by how the "Upload a file" option works i will be able to, and judging by how the "Upload a picture" option works i won‘t be able to upload using this option. Is that correct? Because if that is correct, the statement at the top of this page seems misleading, it implies that currently any upload of pictures is temporalily impossible. Local (talk) 07:46, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Uploads There is an upload wizard that is being deployed (I have no insider information on this) and if it's like at Commons, it will not replace the standard method but complement it. Are there more things confusing or misleading about this wiki? I'd like to help if I can. Koavf (talk) 16:16, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Aha, it won't replace the existing method, that's clear then. I know that wizard at Wikimedia Commons, i uploaded many pictures there. Well, i always appreciate any practical help from anyone and so far i have implemented it (all that i've learned from some of admins) in the form of texts or parts of texts, including some listings, here on WT, so some travelers could avoid some misunderstandings or so. Still it looks like a swamp to me.
By "confusions" i mean things that i encountered from the very beginning when i decided to correct some mistakes, and later to add this and that, and later implementing advices of admins, and later implementing advices of other admins and that's not mentioning conflicting or duplicated expressions (statements) on policy pages. I tell that as a user who was willing to make this guide more usefull. Those little confusions are the actual obstacles. I feel that i will give up, like many other potential contributors that i have encountered. I don't know if this is a proper place to clearify such small things? Two examples of such actual obstacles (it's like anecdotes, actually). First one, banners. It reads: "If you'd like to update an article's banner with a new image, please post on that article's talk page. Make sure the community and admin team are in agreement that the new image should be featured." Looks clear, so i, as a newbie, uploaded banner to the article's discussion page. After a while one of admins transfered it to the article itself. So i uploaded several more banners with no problems and no objections. Then i came across that some banners depict other localities, i found out why admins who uploaded them made such mistakes (there were some mistakes made by the Flickr photographers too), understood their way of thinking and understood that they do not know pecularities of location while i do know. Here starts the anecdote: according to banner guidelines, admins can't make mistakes. There is only option "If you'd like to update banner" (a bit sarcastically). Well, i accept that, authorities is authorities, so i wanted to "update" those banners, made the relevant ones and uploaded in corresponding discussion pages, provided brief explanations - and started to wait when "the community and admin team will be in agreement that the new images should be featured". Still waiting. I think, it's more than a year already, so not so long. What else should i do? I can easily replace wrong banners with correct ones, but one of admins made a clever remark to my comment: "you know, the existing banner looks better, i think". So, authorities is authorities, i don't argue. I want to reach agreement untill i make any moves. Because i constantly see how relevant info (including pictures) are deleted or reverted due to the lack of competence. This is not bad, anyone can make mistakes. Me too. I am used to this way to solve such situation: someone makes a mistake, another one points out, and then the one who made the mistake corrects it. This is normal in my business. But WT does not have any guideline that explains how to behave when you see the mistake you can't so simply correct, let alone mistake made by admin. Second anecdote. Say, i need help. Policy pages and guidelines tell "do that", "don't do that", and supposedly there are all answers to all possible questions, and if the question still arise one can post it at the Pub. What if it's silly question, or say, uncomfortable question like mine (just look to the amount of my text above) - it would be useful to receive a sort of "private consultation" or something. No. Don't bother admins, read policy. If you don't understand, learn english. It took several month to discover that polite and formal "Please feel free to contact me..." which is a sort of a private attitude or just a formal expression on admin user's pages, because such legal possibility does not exist in policy. I was reading policy, why should i look at admin's pages? Why stranger who want to learn how to edit properly should look to admins pages? One of admins politely agreed to answer my questions but i suspect finally got annoyed with my ignorance. Can't complain, it was a favour. Do you now offer me similar favour? It's a swamp, i generally tend to obey policy, which is a real swamp and i actually don't understand how it can be advantageous to WT or IB or anyone else to maintain it in current state. If policy had no conflicting and semi-duplicated sections and statemens it would be beneficial to all, and the new (potential) contributors would act in more reasonable way, at least many of them. Let alone misunderstandings between admins and regular users. So, is it a proper place to be helpful? My talk page would be a good place to me but nobody will reply there, and your talk page will be ruined with such ridiculous amount of texts, just look to my reply LOL. Anyway, i'd like to obey policy, i don't want to criticize or edit it, this is not for me. My little questions are endless, i don't dare to post them here. Plus that new admin didn't reply, probably he won't. I'd be glad if that what was mentioned here by me would be solved LOL Local (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2016 (EDT)
Help I'd be happy to help, Local. Obviously, if you are willing to put forth this much effort, you are willing to do some work to make this travel guide better. You can always post to my talk if you want or email me directly if you would prefer to not post it on a public forum. Koavf (talk) 20:22, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks. Actually i was falling asleep when i was writing all this, so don't know what actual impression it made LOL... I'll have in mind what you say. Now it's not urgent because admin IBkataoka didn't confirm any detail i was asking above, at least so far. So i won't edit now because editing (or adding new info) involves some listings, and those listings have certain style, i.e. 2 possible styles, one of which is described in policy as a "must", while according to opinion of admin one must stick to another style. I don't want to do a double work, let admins do it if they see sense in that. So i'll simply wait and see. I can explain why opinion of admin is not sufficient: there is no any paragraph in written policy about double standards where guidelines are provided with explanation when one must stick to general policy, and when personal opinion of admin applies. So if now i start to write something and use the footnote style - someone else may revert or delete everything (or part), and he will be right because i violate existing policy. But i can see that potentially i may have actual "technical" questions in the future, i almost know what kind of. So i will contact you at your talk page, thanks. But so far i give up, i'm too busy to let me involve into confusions created by others :) Local (talk) 09:30, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Hey Local! Sorry about the delayed respond, but rest assured I wasn't ignoring you :) I've taken some time to figure out the best answers and options to help clarify policies regarding Wikitravel. I understand your frustration- few policies that exist now can contradict other policies and some even clash with each other. The admins and I are going to work together to re-edit some of the policies to make information more easily understandable. In the amidst of all this confusion, admins do and will make mistakes from time to time and that's okay! Since we are all human, it's pretty inevitable. We do however, try our best to keep mistakes to a minimum though. Also, there is NO such thing as a silly question-ever. We encourage questions and discussions such as these because that's what the Traveller's Pub is all about! And Wikitravel wouldn't be where we are today without the help and keen eye from our wonderful users.
Which brings me to the next issue. The sign off button that existed before have temporarily disappeared and the Upload Wizard is currently down, but we're glad you pointed this out to us because we are now working hard to get both back up and running. So thank you for pointing that out to us.
As for the external link style as I have stated before, we are allowed to use both formats. The only time footnotes are not allowed is when someone is trying to support their arguments or prove their information. The listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy. Yes, I also understand you are well aware of all the policies but this is the one I strongly urge you to follow. Because of this, many pages will need re-editing, but with the help of the admins and fellow Wikitravelers, we will able to restore the pages accordingly. If you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know! I would love to further discuss them with you and the rest of Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 19:42, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
Oh and one more thing I forgot to add. Banners. Would the best solution be creating a central banner page where users can submit their banners? This would be a page that admins will check everyday. Let me know what you think! IBkataoka (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2016 (EDT)
No need to be sorry ;) . Really appreciate your professional response. And professional approach. So far it was like dealing with kindergarten kids, except Aleksandra who alone obviously couldn't be responsible for all nonsenses of others. Your comments are crystal clear. Your attitude regarding footnote vs blue-bold-clickable style is crystal clear, and even the reason why it is such is clear to me. Also, i think i see the reason why my attitude regarding those styles seems not exactly clear for you, let alone others. So i do not have and didn't have complaints, thus how everything will be solved (this way or that way) is not my business, that is, i don't insist that this or that must be solved in this or that way. So i close my questions - you have answered them, and now i'll simply comment few things, as if responding to your "if you have an idea that might resolve this issue better, then please let me know!".
  • Banners. I don't trust admin team and don't care about their competence because i'm perfectly competent myself to judge about technical and aesthetic qualities of banners, pictures, composition of them within text, aesthetics and composition of text with and without graphics, value of templates, how and why templates make impact on general appearance, and how details and specifics of formatting of both text and images make impact on the whole, that is, on general appearance of the page; also what is primary and secondary for the guide and how it fit or don't fit policy and guidelines. So, first of all, criteria provided at banner upload page are pretty sane, or normal if you like. I know that my banners meet all requirements and know why they do, and why there may be some doubts at some points - this is because for some particular places it is very difficult to find a proper source to create the banner, the sources (photos, that is) are scarce and i know that they are scarce and why. I, to be honest, do not need advices in this respect; my questions about banners were triggered by my bad experiences and distrust. Which turned out to be sane tactics. So i don't know - do you experience some confusions with users who make banners? That is, are there cases when they make wrong or inappropriate banners? I can say that initially, when banners were just introduced (not so long ago), i experienced one inconvenience, asked at Pub twice and received the reply of admin once, reply was off-topic and useless. By that time there were only few banners, now there are many but the question is still relevent to some extent: where are they? I don't talk about pages - where are the banners stored? I store my banners among my uploads at WT Shared. The point is that it is very useful to have a possibility to see them all (created by others) at one glance. When you see them all (like google search images, for example) you can judge about both whole and details in all aspects: content, aesthetics, trend. You then can judge yourself what are the requirements, what is considered "nice" and "appropriate". So they must be already approved by admin team. This would be genuinely useful. Maybe it could be just display, while they could be stored where they are now.
  • Footnote vs blue-bold-clickable styles. You say "listings should preferably be in the footnote style listing because this is what is written in the Examples section of this policy" and I know why you do but you don'y know why i stubbornly don't want to accept that. At least i have such impression - do you see where the point is? In chronology and laziness. Did you check chronology and did you take into account human laziness? I now don't ask anything nor complain about something - i simply tell you in playfull manner what one can clearly see if he properly investigates the issue. I take into account that you are a new admin, i am newbie too so there are not so much differences in some aspects. So, initially there were only footnotes, it was not even a style but simply the "technical solution" or so. One option, one style. And all policy was written accordingly, there were neither confusions nor doubts nor misunderstandings in this respect because external links were supposed to be placed in those footnotes, sorry my english vocabulary is very limited, especially when it comes down to "technical" expressions, so please take that into account. Then, both WT community and admin team, found that the footnot style is visually annoying and practically inconvenient. Arguments were provided. Small discussion took place. No objections were raised. Aleksandra approved - but i have to say that i have no clue whether others were aware about this decision at all, i assume they are obliged to be aware but i think they simply silently accept such things and immediately forget. This is about 2012/2013, i also want to point out that your friend from Russia became admin later. So - i stress that - needful corrections on appropriate policy page were made. They still present. There is some pecularity: everything was designend, especially at "technical" point, that external links can be reached using footnotes, so if you want to make a blue-bold-clickable external link you have to do that manually. I don't know - maybe after recent upgrade this was improved? I don't see much difference, manually or not manually, simply when something works automatically it is more obvious. But this is secondary because the policy is primary. Changes in policy were made and requirements were described extremely clear, citation: "No footnotes. Travel guides do not use footnotes!". I was and am constantly pointing this requirement of policy because any other opinions are just private opinions and violate WT policy. Create a section of double standards or revert those changes or make other appropriate changes instead. It would be professional. Now it is a kindergarten. So, i continue about external links style. Here laziness comes into force: appropriate changes about style were made, having in mind that this applies to all external links. Now see - all policy is written in footnote style, to edit entire policy is a decent work, to say the least. So it was supposed that if policy has proper description about external link styles, it should be sufficient and everything else goes without saying. So let's see Listings page: humble change was made there too - "the URL for the official Web site for this listed entry. To display properly as a working, clickable hyperlink, either http:// or https:// must be included before the rest of the URL! (see external links for more guidelines)". Nothing special, one should see what kind of edit was made at 18:27, 15 March 2013 right after changing the Style Policy - very minimal correction, editor had in mind that the new style policy applies and this goes without saying. Isn't all that sufficient and doesn't it go without saying? Now the new admin comes. Indeed, why it should go without saying, all policy is written in footnote style, all articles have footnote styles, so what should here go without saying? In my oppinion, here should go without saying that admin team can't be a kindergarten, and that private opinions are not even secondary - they are nothing. And i indeed lost my temper during that silly conversation with your russian friend. I had idea to improve some articles of RU WT, but now not interested. So I continue. Blue-bold-clicable style was some sort of novelty, having in mind that all articles will be gradually changed from footnote style to blue-bold-clickable style. So both styles coexist, but since all texts are experiencing edits from time to time, it was expected that all footnotes will be smoothly replaced with blue-bold-clickable links. Like you pointed out - "many pages will need re-editing" LOL. Are you aware what you are re-editing and why? If you have professional approach, relax first, make appropriate changes in policy, then act according to the policy. Your choice what and how to edit in policy, but i have to say that if your coworkers didn't explain everything what i have told you here - this is not admin team, it's a kindergarten. Local (talk) 08:41, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
Hi Local! Glad you stayed around to discuss this with me further. The admin team is a group of one the hardest working people that I know and although you may disagree, I know that they are doing their best. We may have had some miscommunication here and there, but please don't blame them. I assure you that from here and on we will all be on the same page. I sincerely apologize and take full responsibility for all the stress Wikitravel has caused you so far. As I've stated before, the admin team and I will need to thoroughly re-vist some of the policies and edit them accordingly so please be patient with us :) I will be sure to take your suggestions/comments and keep them at the top of my mind! Especially having the option to view all the banners made by users in one glance (That's a great idea!) I do however, still stand by my external link format that I've stated earlier. I'm glad that you find my reasoning for them crystal clear. Should you choose to accept them, I hope that you will continue to stick around to make contributions and edits to Wikitravel. Best IBkataoka (talk) 12:42, 20 September 2016 (EDT)
As some of the edits that are mentioned above were done so long ago, it is hard to remember all details. I would just like to add something about the changing of banners (and other information). Usually if you see incorrect information, everyone here is entitled to change information, as long as you put a reason in the comment field, so all understand why something was removed/changed. With the banners, many people spent a lot of time finding pictures and uploading them, so just changing a banner because you don´t like a picture we don´t do, we try to discuss first on the discussion page of the article, in order to respect all editors here. Obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion. We always try to answer any questions asked by users, at times questions are not seen due to high amount of spam, some edits are auto patrolled and only seen later etc etc, so if you don´t get an answer somewhere, feel free to send a message to a user or admin directly, that usually works. The external link discussion has been going on for a while, mainly because the "add listing" format comes up with the footnote style and it could not be changed at the time of discussion (tech issue). There were other priorities to focus on, and to be honest, my priority has been content, and when editing a page and I notice something totally against our policies I will change it. That´s why it is so great to have so many editors here, one looks specifically at the policies, one looks at content, another looks at pictures etc etc. Since the latest upgrade there is much less spam so all of us will have more time to look at the details, on the EN version and on the language versions too. Participating here is not meant to be stressful, enjoy it, we all work together on this great project. Adzas (talk) 09:45, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Thanks Adzas for your matter-of-fact comment, there is nothing to disagree with, it all goes without saying, so to say. You told some totally new things that i didn't know. This guide (WT) is rather widely used, i know that from some travel forums, and from those forums i discovered that source of some misleading info comes from WT (there may be more sources of course). So basically i'm interested in content too, and one of annoying things was that admins revert correct content to outdated content and provide explanations (different in different cases), and those explanations always are statement that this edit is totally against policies. I don't want to focus now on this (it's endless), i'd like to clearify those new to me things in more detail, say, some things about those banners. This is quite handy example. Your statement: "obviously if an incorrect location is displayed, it should be changed without discussion." . So this is a case, this is what i wanted to do. To me no discussion is needed, just i expect that admin will come and revert it, stating that my "knowledge" is wrong because he knows better (or so, i'm simplifying). So, to prevent that, i posted simple question, something like "this one is wrong" and "let me know if i can replace it with the right one" (actual coment was longer). That is, i wanted and still want to reach agreement before i make any move, no discussion is needed. It was rather long ago indeed, i stopped editing because i don't know how to behave with those wrong banners. Wrong by content, not because i didn't like it. It was admin who didn't like correct one. So, as you see, it's such a simple thing and everyting turns into such a mess because there is no clear guidance what to do in case of mistakes. That option "if you want to update the banner", well, it is more relevant to photos that illustrate the text, while banner is more for representation, but yes, this option is usefull, but it does imply that existing banner is still correct, still represents the article, and may be replaced with simillarly correct one but with more qualities etc. While wrong content, incorrect location is a different thing. I assume it's a rare exception. Maybe even hardly possible. But still. If this is some obscure station (like in other discussion above) i agree that this is not very relevant but why not to replace it if you can make a correct one... and besides, this would be professional approach. But i talk about panoramic landscapes, manors, castles - i agree with you in all details, that is, that such banner should be replaced, but how one can do that if policy does not explain how and whether this is allowed? Once it's absent in policy - it goes without saying that this is not allowed. I assume(d), this is a prerogative of admin team. It would be quite normal. Editing is editing, adding new text or images is still editing, but mistakes left because of lack of knowledge, competence, by mistake, intentionally is a different thing, it's not always clear that and whether this is an actual mistake (otherwise it would not be left). So it would be normal if admin team has prerogative to deal with all obscure mistakes of content that occur. My attempt to clearify that ended in stern silence. Long or not long ago, it's secondary - it could be many more recent misunderstandings that ended in silence, just i got fed up. Now summer ended, i decided to try to clearify some things. So who can correct mistakes, like in case with those banners? Anyone? Or admin team? Or anyone can report to admin team and they will take care? I don't ask to answer, i'd like to see what policy says :) . Maybe there is some explanation, i could miss it, that's quite possible. I just want to add about that what is "obvious", like in your saying about banners with incorrect locations - there were many obvious things to me, but when admin says that for him it's obvious that he's right and i'm wrong and provide arguments that illustrate certain gap in his certain knowledge - what one should do then? This turns your reasonable advice to behave reasonably and sanely into impasse. And that is what wasted majority of my time on WT. Local (talk) 15:59, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Admin issues Local, I can't speak to any other admins but I am an admin here and I am not affiliated with Internet Brands. If you feel like someone did something wrong or that you simply don't understand, you can of course contact him directly or if you want an outside perspective, you can ask me. I'm glad you're here and have been here for awhile--I hope you want to continue contributing. If you'd like, you can send me an email. Koavf (talk) 16:08, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Thanks again for your input Local. Sorry you feel your time is wasted here, we appreciate anyone´s input and edits. For future edits, just plunge forward, also with banners. We are all human, we can all make mistakes, admin on this site too, so as Koavf says, if you feel you are not getting a response or the incorrect response or there are doubts, contact an admin directly. We are looking forward to further edits from you! Adzas (talk) 17:10, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
Wait, wait, i assume there is no policy that allows to "contact directly", no? It's a bit anecdotically but i was reading "Plunge forward" policy a minute ago and guessing what does this mean: "Ignoring authority....Don't bother asking...". Maybe there is no doubts for you, but policy tells quite different... LOL .. I'll better wait for the updated policy version and see. If won't die until that LOL.. Local (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
You are always welcome to contact an admin directly as Koavf and Adzas have suggested. But yes! Please do stick around for some updates and we hope it's to your liking :) Cheers! IBkataoka (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
IBkataoka, thanks for your polineness and good will, I appreciate it, but clarity in our "semi-private" conversation is not a policy; i'm now starting to suspect that i was wrong thinking that admin team should act more reasonably - how and why to act reasonably if policy is a mess... LOL Local (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2016 (EDT)
This project has been running pretty well since 2003 with the policies/guidelines that are currently in place. Times change so policies/guidelines could be updated where necessary, but I don´t think they are a mess, sorry again you feel that way. As IBkataoka says, some updates are looked at so probably best to take it from there. Happy editing! Adzas (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2016 (EDT)

Evil website wants to steal your content[edit]

The evil website that started with stolen content wants to steal even more content. I cannot link because of the filter, but you know which website I am talking about. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

Fork The content forked to another site is totally within the bounds of the license that Evan and Maj chose for this project., there is nothing "evil" about reproducing it (and building upon it as well)--it's part of the purpose of Wikitravel/voyage. Koavf (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2016 (EDT)
I wouldn't say duplicating this site is "Evil", just pointless—The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

External links to printable PDF maps[edit]

I would like to add links to printable maps I created on Inkatlas (example), but it seems like this is against the current External Links policy. I think a free, detailed, up to date printable atlas is something that's very useful to travellers. There is no way to include this external content in Wikitravel itself. Are such links, in fact, against the policy? If so, can an exception/change be made? Full disclosure: is a project I'm working on in my spare time. Kontextify (talk) 10:57, 14 October 2016 (EDT)

Hi Kontextify, thanks for expressing your concern! I agree with you, a map is an important tool to travellers. However, external links such as yours have been reverted because it requires a user to go to your page and download the map in a PDF format. Popular pages such as Manhattan and San Francisco already have maps displayed within the pages that users can refer to. We do appreciate you looking out for fellow travelers though! --IBkataoka (talk) 14:21, 14 October 2016 (EDT)
I do appreciate the maps already included in articles, but I find they're often too small or not detailed enough to serve as a proper paper map of a place. Would it not be useful to link to a detailed printable map in addition to having the embedded ones? For example, articles about national parks and similar destinations can have links to printable maps with trails and terrain data (useful for hiking). Unfortunately, there seems to be no way of adding the PDF directly to Wikitravel. Kontextify (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2016 (EDT)
Adding files In fact, these maps are made from OpenStreetMap data, which we can add to Shared. The licensing is not a problem. Koavf (talk) 22:05, 17 October 2016 (EDT)

Destination of the Month[edit]

The end of the month is right around the corner, which calls for a new Destination of the Month! If you have any suggestions on where it should be for the month of November, be sure to stop by the Destination of the Month page and nominate a place! Cheers :-) --IBkataoka (talk) 19:41, 20 October 2016 (EDT)

North America In the United States, it is Thanksgiving season, so something related to our colonial history or the harvest would be appropriate. Additionally, it's autumn in the Northern Hemisphere, so somewhere that has beautiful vistas for seeing the leaves change could be good. Alternately, we could go the exact opposite route and encourage our Northerner readers to hit the beaches of New Zealand or Tuvalu... Koavf (talk) 21:21, 20 October 2016 (EDT)
That's a good idea Koavf! Do you know of any nice places in particular? --IBkataoka (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2016 (EDT)
User:IBkataoka Not off-hand. Of course, the trick is that we would need to have a germane destination that also has high-quality content here. Koavf (talk) 23:00, 21 October 2016 (EDT)