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Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates

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Here we determine which articles are featured on the Main Page as Destination of the Month (DOTM) and Off the Beaten Path (OTBP).

[edit] Nominate

You can nominate an article you would like to see featured; just say a few words about why, and select a good time to go. Well-known and/or popular destinations should be nominated as Destination of the Month, while more obscure destinations should be nominated for Off the Beaten Path. Any destination, region, itinerary or event that passes the "What is an article?" test is eligible for DotM/OtBP.

The basic format of a nomination is as follows: 

===[[Destination]]===
Great article and it's just luvvly-jubbly in the springtime. ~~~~

However, before nominating, please check that the article follows these basic guidelines:

  • The nominated article should have an article status of guide or star. This includes having at least one good picture, and listings/headers/etc. that match our manual of style.
  • The nominated article should be featured at a good time to visit.
  • The nominated article must not have been featured previously.
  • If the article has been nominated previously but failed, any objections should be addressed before nominating it again.
    • See Slush pile to check.
    • If you think a once-slushed destination is now ready to go, list it as new, but with a pointer to the slush pile entry.

[edit] Select

You can also comment on any previous nomination based on timeliness and adherence to the criteria above, just add a bullet point (*) and your signed opinion. 

===[[Destination]]===
Great article and it's just luvvly-jubbly in the springtime. TravelNut 25:25, 31 Feb 2525 (EDT)
* Looks nice, but shouldn't the Do section contain more than just quilting contests? ~~~~

If an article gets several comments in favor and none against for a week or so, it's eligible to be placed in an appropriate time-slot in the queue.

Please note that the following are not considered valid reasons to oppose a nomination:

  • "I don't like it." All objections have to be based on the guidelines above: poor formatting, missing information, etc. Personal opinions, dislikes, etc do not count.
  • "Wrong time of year." Articles are supported or opposed based on their content. Timing can be worked out later.
  • "Wrong type of place." Articles are supported or opposed based on their content. Whether it's DoTM or OtBP can be worked out later.

Discussions for previously selected destinations are in the Archive. Discussions for nominations that didn't make the grade are in the Slush pile.

[edit] Upcoming DOTM / OTBP

[edit] Schedule

The following queue should contain about six months' worth of upcoming destinations. Note that new DotMs are rotated in on the 1st of each month, while OtBPs are changed on the 15th.

Month DOTM OTBP
February 2010 Medellín Tobacco Caye?
March 2010 Bali Tromsø?
April 2010 Washington, D.C. Kawasaki
May 2010 Figueres/Gili Islands? Hilversum?
June 2010 Kabul? Sakhalin
July 2010 Newcastle-upon-Tyne? Ravello?

These are not cast in stone, and the order can be changed if, for example, an excellent guide for a timely event is found. Whenever a guide becomes a current feature, it should be removed from the list, the discussion archived, and a new month added to the end of the queue. Alternatives are OK; the whole point is to enable some discussion as needed.

[edit] Next change

The section below provides an opportunity to see what the DOTM and OTBP will look like on the Main Page. Please remember that main page real-estate is a valuable commodity, so keep the description brief and the photo small.

Bali, is the Island of the Gods, majestic mountains and long beaches...(more...)

Tobacco Caye is an extremely tiny island in Belize, popular with budget travelers. There's very little to actually do, so after spending the morning snorkeling, grab a hammock and a novel as you settle in to watch the sunset.(more...)

[edit] Nominations for Destination of the Month

[edit] Vientiane

The capital of Laos, an increasingly popular tourist destination (no longer OtBP) and a very comprehensive article that almost suffers from too much information. Best in the winter season (Nov-Mar or thereabouts). Jpatokal 08:40, 24 April 2009 (EDT)

Support but it needs in some sections (Get around, Drink) a traveller who was their as some dates (e.g. 2007 for deadline of bars) are totally outdated... jan 05:17, 1 May 2009 (EDT)
Support. Could use a manual of style wash, but it has great imagery and makes a strong case for visiting. Gorilla Jones
Support Although I agree that the page would be better if it were formatted properly and if the sites were organized according to locale, I think it's a nice page. ChubbyWimbus 20:41, 29 June 2009 (EDT)
  • Support Reluctantly. This is when I get mixed feelings about Wikitravel. Vientianne is one of my favourite places and the page well captures my feelings about it. But do I really want it full of Wikitravel readers next time I go there?Shep 14:30, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
Why not? We're a charming bunch. Most of us, anyway. Gorilla Jones 17:21, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
Well, you can have too much of a good thing!Shep 09:07, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
We promise not to invite the spambots. - Dguillaime 21:33, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
I don't think Wikitravellers are going to come in such droves that it will take away from the charm of the city. I guess you could try to think of it in other terms: Visitors help the local/nation's economy (don't know much about Laotian economics, but money is usually a good thing), you can showcase a city that you hold dear to you so that others can share that same type of experience, it can help fight against stereotypes that Laos is a war-torn Hmong refugee nation, etc. ChubbyWimbus 13:02, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
I note this has migrated to May — I've never been to Vientiane, but May is hot and miserable for much of the region, and according to this chart, it's also the rainy season. Gorilla Jones 18:56, 9 January 2010 (EST)
Wasn't this scheduled for this month? When and why did it get moved? You should not go anywhere in Laos in that period - stinking hot and wet. Best in October to March period.--Burmesedays 03:22, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Stefan replaced Vientiane with Nara due to 1300th festival of Nara. I agree it is not the right time. Shall we switch Gilis instead? jan 08:22, 15 January 2010 (EST)

[edit] Kanazawa

We aren't exactly running short on Japan DOTMs, but here's one more for sometime in 2010. Best in spring or fall. Jpatokal 10:08, 18 July 2009 (EDT)

Support. Good descriptions in this one. Gorilla Jones 11:21, 18 July 2009 (EDT)
It's a very pretty article, but there are few addresses listed—is this a Japan-specific thing? --Peter Talk 15:22, 18 July 2009 (EDT)
It wouldn't hurt to add them, but in general directions are much more useful for finding places in Japan. Jpatokal 01:27, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
Most other Japan pages have addresses. The listings on the Kanazawa page only mimic Wikitravel's formatting, but they do not actual use it. I suspect that's why the addresses are left out. There is a lot of time, though, to format the page properly before this is featured. ChubbyWimbus 17:27, 21 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Support Wish I had read this when I was there, all I remember seeing was the "clock fountain" and the park. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:50, 4 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Kunming

A good article on one of China's nicer cities, a provincial capital with some historical importance.

I live in China; to me this seems a major destination, DotM candidate. I wonder, though, if others might think it is more an "Off the beaten path" candidate. Among WT itineraries, Kunming is the jumping off point for Yunnan tourist trail (definitely well beaten), one end point for Overland Kunming to Hong Kong, and on some of the routes in Overland to Tibet and Long March.

  • Almost Support. The Do section is empty and the Eat section needs to be cleaned up, with some restaurants and preferably food pictures added, but other than that it's looking pretty good. I'd pop for DotM, it's a fairly major destination. Jpatokal 08:13, 3 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Not Yet It's a great destination, and is definitely more of a DotM, but I don't think it's ready yet. I think the "Understand" section could be more clear. Some of the entries/sections are not properly formatted. The organization of the "See" section would also be better if it were organized according to locale rather than arbitrary things like "Buildings" and "museums". The two temples could be presented better, also. Pictures are needed, as JPatokal pointed out. The "Do" section definitely needs content. No featured destination should have empty sections. ChubbyWimbus 20:59, 5 September 2009 (EDT)

Can an itinerary be DotM? Yunnan tourist trail covers four towns, three at guide & one a good outline, and two trekking areas, one guide & one stub. Could the whole thing be DotM? Pashley 21:29, 16 October 2009 (EDT)

Yes, the Dalton Highway was an OtBP, but...I believe it's the article which must have DotM-worthy content, and Yunnan tourist trail certainly does not contain DotM-worthy content. AHeneen 00:21, 19 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Bali

Burmesedays did an absurdly good job on all the Bali articles, amazingly within the span of a month! It's only our second guide-level region, and I'd call it the best one on Wikitravel. It's a perfect DotM, and I think it would be a crime not to feature it. --Peter Talk 16:35, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

  • Support. Err.... I guess nobody is surprised by that :). Best time to visit is April to October but Bali does not really have a low season --Burmesedays 21:11, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Hear yea, really insanely great work! So... looking over the climate section, March would be an ideal good month to feature it no? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 21:40, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. I would suggest that we feature Bali in March as it is the month when Nyepi takes place. jan 11:07, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Great article. Gorilla Jones 23:00, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. It is a very comprehensive article providing deep insight information for the traveller. Bali is also one of the best place for the holiday with its nice beaches, Hindu temples and unique culture --Hkurniawan 21:07, 02 December 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Good pretty much any time of the year. Jpatokal 21:08, 19 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Gili Islands

One of my favorite places in the world, and the article's in decent shape as well. Not ruined yet, but should be listed before it turns into the next Kuta. Best season is May-Oct, but quite usable any time of the year. Jpatokal 08:37, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

  • Support. Great article, and quite OtBP. Time to fill the queue with Indonesian articles, methinks. --Peter Talk 16:32, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. A lovely place. Certainly not ruined yet as Jani says but it might be going that way. This nomination has prompted me to do a bit of work on the article also. I know Gili T especially well and a few little updates would help an already good article. --Burmesedays 21:07, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Unsure It's a good article but are the Gili Islands still OtbP? It's definitely on the standard backpacker trail and even my travel agency in Zurich offered me Gili T as part of a package tour from Lombok to Bali. I will not disagree if we continue under OtbP but maybe users are surprised. jan 11:42, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Yeah, I was thinking about that too, but it's still pretty OtBP outside the backpacker set -- no branded hotels etc. Even the package tour you mention probably only stops over in Gili T, right? Jpatokal 04:23, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
The organised tour started in Senggigi, Lombok stopped two nights at Gili T, then onwards to Nusa Lemboggan for some snorkeling and finished in Sanur, Bali. I had a quick look and the two biggest german speaking travel companies now offer for all package tourists this option. They do this primarily because European travel companies are still not allowed to book indonesian airlines due to the EU ban. Regards, jan 05:08, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
Strictly speaking I guess Gili T (especially) is no longer OtBT. And even within Indonesia you could make an argument for many places better deserving of this tag. The very nature of the place, the absence of any name hotels and the good state of the WT article makes it a valid candidate though I think.--Burmesedays 05:15, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
I added the Gili Islands in the schedule for February because it's a good time to start the preparation for a trip but Bali is in March... How about feature Bali and the Gilis jointly in March? That would make an interesting combination for travellers. jan 05:34, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
I think it is preferred to keep the DotM/OtBP diverse. Although there may be instances when the same country occupied both features, I'd rather avoid that. It makes the features less exciting when one nation dominates, and it doesn't showcase the full scope of Wikitravel. How about instead of featuring this with Bali we switch it with Tobacco Caye? Although Vientiane and Gili Islands are both in Southeast Asia, at least they are not both in the same country. ChubbyWimbus 11:41, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
Chubby, I forgot the different changing dates for DotM and OtbP so you are right, they will be featured for two weeks. I will do the change with Tobacco Caye. Feel free to change it further if there are any other ideas. jan 05:17, 7 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Withdrawn support. The more I think about this, the more I do not think it is such a good idea. The article is great and I love the place. But I think we are stretching the definition of OtBP here. The destination is relatively well known these days and as Jan pointed out it even crops up as part of fairly bland European (especially) package tours. There is also the country factor....... We are proposing to feature Indonesia twice in the near future which in itself is great. But there are some good, well-developed articles for truly OtBP destinations in Indonesia and I can see those getting short shrift because we have featured the Gili Islands which does not altogether fit the OtBP definition.--Burmesedays 23:28, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
Well, what category it should feature in shouldn't be the basis of your support, neither should whether you like or don't like the destinition, or when it should be featured. It should be judged on it's merits as an article. Details like that merely calls for discussion of those issues. Destinations can be parked her for a year if need be for the right timing. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 23:36, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
Really? If the point of these nominations is to highlight a destination and then judge it on the merit of the WT article with no regard for whether it fits a set of criteria, then I have completely misunderstood. --Burmesedays 00:01, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
→ You might want to give the #Select paragraph a re-read then :o) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 00:07, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
Ah. Yes. Indeed. That'll teach me eh? :o) Not for the first time, thank you Stefan for pointing me in the right direction. So.... no problems at all with the article it is very good. It should though be a DoTM candidate not OtBP. There. :) --Burmesedays 00:43, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Schedule proposal I think we should feature the Gilis in late spring 2010 (May/June) as DotM as compared to the competition of Niamey, Tobacco Caye, Hilversum etc. it is not really anymore OtBP. I also read Select and think that with the partial lift of the EU ban on indonesian airlines the no. of package tourists will significantly increase and in 2010 no one will argue anymore that it is OtBP. I think we should keep Hyderabad as proposed in January 2010 as it is the best time for a visit but Christchurch could be an alternative to the Asian overweights in the list. Would anyone oppose a shift of the Gilis to the Dotm section? jan 07:44, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
May or June is good scheduling for the Gilis: good weather but before the islands become over-run in July and August. The months to avoid are December to February when rains can be fairly extreme and the islands flood (wading through one metre of floodwater on Gili T is not much fun!). For reasons already stated, DoTM makes more sense to me for this destination.--Burmesedays 22:39, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
I entered the Gilis for May as DotM jan 09:56, 19 November 2009 (EST)
Excellent jan. I pledge to have a Gili Islands map ready soon. --Burmesedays 09:59, 19 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Khartoum

Another African find. This one in a much better shape than Niamey. It's extremely well written I think, it feels complete. There are some missing addresses here and there, but must of them has GPS coordinates instead, and this is Africa so I suspect there is a reason for those. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:17, 10 October 2009 (EDT)

  • Support, definitely. I find myself rather shocked that we have a great Sudanese article! And one that seems to have grown organically, without love from any one contributor. --Peter Talk 14:20, 10 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Nice, but needs work A surprisingly good article for the region, but I think it needs more information before it is fit for DotM...this is a city of EIGHT million! As for coordinates, they are very useful to some people, not at all to others. I've been doing a bit of browsing the past few months on the [1] and coordinates are used (& more useful than addresses) by practically everyone driving themselves...but for other tourists (and there are lots doing Cairo-Nairobi independently or with an overland bus) addresses are more helpful (even just the street name, esp. for telling the taxi driver and watching for signs on a minibus).
    • Photos: There is one good picture and one that isn't really necessary.
    • Intro: Needs some history and certainly needs some climate info
    • Get in: (By bus) Where's the new bus terminal/name? (By train) So the station is chaotic and trains erratic, but how do I get a ticket?
    • See: Could use some more items and lengthier descriptions.
    • Do: Two things?
    • Buy: Lists places, but are there any particular items which are good to buy?
    • Eat: I realize this is Africa and so there are thousands of small, good places to eat which frequently open/close and relocate...so we don't really need more listings. But this section would be best served by dividing it into the three sections of the city.
    • Drink: Why does 'drink'='alcohol'. Is tea served anywhere?
    • Cope: A few more embassy listings.
    • Get out: Descriptions should be more brief and those destinations should have their own article. I think the Red Sea area and Jebel Barkal listings are too far away (and in whole other regions of Sudan) to be listed.
    • Stay Safe: A VERY important section is missing! While the city is considered one of the safest for expats in E.Africa (despite violence elsewhere in the country), there are quite a few cultural sensitivities. If you follow the news, you'd know that in Khartoum: a schoolteacher was imprisoned for naming a teddybear Muhammed, a Sudanese journalist was jailed and sentenced to a fine & 40 lashes for wearing trousers (deemed inappropriate attire for a woman), and a US embassy employee and his driver were shot to death last year by conservative Islamists (although terrorism isn't really a huge threat). Political topics should be avoided. Some are sensitive to the North-South conflict (I think the South will vote on independence in a year or two), the Darfur conflict (I doubt many will side with Westerners who blame the Sudanese gov't), and the warrant for Bashir's arrest issued earlier this year (which Western governments lauded).
So, while the article is much better than most African ones, I think a lot of info should be added to bring it to true guide status and to be featured. The second edition Bradt guide (the best guides to African countries) for Sudan should be released this December, [2]. The first edition is a bit outdated, and this one claims a big update to Khartoum info. I got the Bradt guides to Mali, Niger, & Nigeria this summer and they are truly incredible in their scope of these 'off-the-beaten-path' destinations...if someone picks up this guide, I guarantee we could have a star article for Khartoum. Another good source of info is over at LP Thorntree [3]. I'd do most of the updating myself, but I'm very busy (and it's quite late at night while I'm writing this)...hopefully I'll find time to contribute to this fine destination soon. AHeneen 02:57, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
The Stay safe argument is quite compelling, so should we slush this? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:31, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
NO. As far as safety goes, visitors must simply be careful to avoid insulting Islam (I think it's about the same as in Saudi Arabia or Iran) and avoiding politics concerning the North-South conflict and the president's role in the Darfur conflict (just like you shouldn't discuss politics in many countries). Khartoum seems to me like an interesting city in the region, and with just a little work (like I outlined) it could be a great DotM. AHeneen 23:13, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
I can't find much info to fix this article. I really hope it stays here and isn't slushed for a while as I would really like to see it featured. As far as timing goes, very important and (we hope not) potentially explosive elections are set to run from 5-12 April with results announced later in the month. While the city is not too dangerous to be rejected for DotM, these are the first elections since 1986 and the first after decades of civil war. As the capital and largest city of the country combined with very sensitive elections, I think it should not be featured earlier than June...to give time to see if violence (like in Iran) breaks out. Again, it is otherwise a fairly safe city. AHeneen 17:56, 13 December 2009 (EST)
Actually, I think featuring it during the elections period might be best, since people will be googling "Khartoum!" We are featuring Copenhagen during the COP15 summit, which clearly is not a great time to visit, but to great effect. The true goal of the DotM is really just to attract new users (aside from encouraging users to improve their pet projects with the reward of a front page feature, of course). Stefan noted that on 14 Dec, "Copenhagen" was the #3 "hot search" on Google trends, and our guide was the #3 search result! I think featuring articles when they are in the news can be a good way to give our site extra exposure. --Peter Talk 23:57, 17 December 2009 (EST)
Aw, I like to think there's a wider variety of goals in featuring destinations! ;-) ChubbyWimbus 00:22, 18 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Washington, D.C.

It's one of the world's top tourist destinations, the U.S. capital, my hometown, with a collection 3 star articles and 9 guides, something like 25 maps marking every last listing in the guide, and we've even managed to get the breadcrumbs to display! I've gone through the (rather stiff) travel guide competition at the bookstores downtown, and I think our guide is competitive with the best of them. I'm still polishing it before future star nominations (getting better photos, proofing, weeding out some of the stranger rubbish I've written, etc.), but I think it's certainly ready for a DotM feature. The only bad time of the year to visit is summer, but that's also peak season, so I'd consider it fine to feature any time of year. The "classic" visiting time of year, though, is of course cherry blossom season. --Peter Talk 16:27, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

  • Support Well, this is one of our best city guides across the whole site, so I really can't find any reason we shouldn't feature it. Is cherry blossom season April or May? --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 09:39, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
No way to tell in advance, as it depends on the weather, or perhaps whether the beavers see their shadow. I'd bank on global warming and say April. --Peter Talk 13:23, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support It's an amazing article and i think it is best featured in April because starting with the Easter holidays the main travel season starts.jan 08:56, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support Wonderful article and one that should be used as an example of how to write a large city article. Spring would be good.... best to avoid summer as the weather is truly foul. --Burmesedays 09:32, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Easy call on this. Gorilla Jones 23:00, 15 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Christchurch

Another find outside our core areas, this time found among our most edited destinations. We might have the (usual) issues with formatting again, but the content definitively seems up to standards. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 08:21, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

  • Almost support. I like the article and the city, and I'm not a stickler for formatting, but there are a handful of junk listings that would need to be cleaned out, and I'd like to see a bit more organization within the headings to emphasize highlights — as it is, they're all just long lists of listings. Gorilla Jones 23:00, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Great destination (when it is not foggy and raining... errr.... ). The article looks a wee bit untidy at first glance but nothing that a quick spring clean would not put right. And it needs a climate section as the weather is an extremely important factor down there. --Burmesedays 23:10, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Soft support The sleep section is weak with non standard listings (budget/mid-range/splurge), the article does not have a map and some minor formatting issues that can be handled until the article goes online. jan 09:13, 16 October 2009 (EDT) Withdrawn support no improvement and does not match our criteria. Shall it end in the slush pile ? jan 05:33, 1 February 2010 (EST)
    • With only eight listings, the budget/mid-range/splurge headers are not needed. =) LtPowers 09:41, 16 October 2009 (EDT)
    • The drink and sleep section are not up to our standards and we don't have a map for the city. I think the article is a bit weak for DotM if not someone rather soon starts to improve the article. Maybe we take the article out of the schedule until someone starts to work on the open issues. jan 11:58, 25 November 2009 (EST)
  • Needs work With only 8 listings, the Sleep section is woefully inadequate for a city the size of Christchurch. One sleep listing is probably better in a separate Lincoln article rather than Christchurch, while the other 7 are a rather incomplete selection of mostly downtown accommodation. There are many (hundreds, perhaps even a thousand) more places to sleep in Christchurch than those listed, both in the city and the suburbs. Enought to justify budget/mid-range/splurge headings with 10 or more places listed in each. Many of the other listings lack addresses or other contact details. Also, there is no mention of Canterbury University or other places of learning. - Huttite 05:49, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Bromo-Tengger-Semeru National Park

I have wanted to get one of the Indonesian park articles to a state where it could be nominated for some weeks now and here it is. It is not the longest of articles but it provides a good, accurate guide to the park. And you get to look at one of Mr Patokallio's finest which is used as the lead image.

A bit of history for this article. When I first had a look at the East Java region articles, there was one each for Mount Bromo and Mount Semeru and another one for the national park. Clearly that did not make too much sense so all 3 were combined into one. You could make arguments for this being DoTM or OtBP. It is not that well known a destination internationally but is very much on the domestic Indonesian tour package circuit. Hence I am fairly ambivalent as to which category is more appropriate. Best time to visit is April through September. --Burmesedays 01:33, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

  • Support but unsure if OtBP or DotM. I usually tend to think that a National Park is OtBP but maybe this is different jan 07:27, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. I'd just barely lean towards DotM, but wouldn't object too loudly to this being an OtBP. Jpatokal 10:34, 1 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support Nice, but we are really booming with Indonesian destinations at the moment. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:50, 4 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Lisbon

Although it was refused some time ago it is more complete now, and it's a very popular tourist destination. —The preceding comment was added by 188.81.106.36 (talk • contribs)

Not Yet Although I have never been to Lisbon, I have a sneaky suspicion that there is more to see and do in the city than what is listed. Also, the "See" section lacks organization. Districts make better subsections than the arbitrary headings like "Architecture". The transportation information does not really belong in the "See" section. It seems better suited for "Get around". ChubbyWimbus 22:30, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Oppose Lisbon is a fantastic city, and this guide still really doesn't do it any justice. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 02:52, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
  • More criticism wanted. While I completely agree that Lison is 'not there yet', I would welcome more criticism on what is missing and what should be improved. It could help me (and hopefully someone else) in improving the article. --DenisYurkin 16:39, 14 December 2009 (EST)
  • Comments. Some suggestions to improve the article:
  • Understand section is thin. Certainly needs a history sub-section and generally to tell us much more about the city.
  • Do section is tiny - there must be more - theatres, cinemas, sport?
  • Drink only has 3 listings.
  • Get out is full of red links. --Burmesedays 19:55, 14 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Kuching

Impressively comprehensive guide, with some nice pictures to boot. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 02:52, 30 October 2009 (EDT)

A few things: The "Do" and "Drink" sections need more descriptions. Are all of the food specialties specific to Kuching or could some be moved into the regional article? Also, many of the listings are not properly formatted. (To those who keep saying formatting is not required, I'd like to point out that it is listed as a requirement through the statement, "listings/headers/etc. that match our manual of style." Formatting is part of the manual of style, and "listings" are even mentioned directly. Please continue the discussion on the talk page if you have any thoughts on this.) ChubbyWimbus 16:32, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
Virtually all of those food items should be moved over to Sarawak, which already lists most of them with the same pictures to boot... Jpatokal 10:20, 1 November 2009 (EST)
Yeah, was thinking that might come up, what if we temporarily delete (move to the talk page) those empty listings while it's featured? there are plenty of others to go on. Aaaand, If you're going to oppose it on the merrit of the lack of "new style" format, I'll just go right ahead and slush this one again, cause I sure as hell ain't doing all that work, but I still think it's a pitty to disqualify good good guides on that basis. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 17:02, 30 October 2009 (EDT)
Unless the "Do" and "Drink" sections are deemed to be lacking too much, I don't think it needs to be slushed for the formatting. If it were next month's feature, it would be more urgent, but since this is unscheduled, there could very well be 6 months before it is featured. That would be enough time for someone (not necessarily you) to put the listings in proper format. ChubbyWimbus 03:49, 31 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. It would be very cool to have a Brunei feature, and this one is, I think, certainly up to guide status and thus qualifies for a feature. I don't think deleting the very few unfinished listings would be worthwhile—that wouldn't IMO be an improvement, and if anything we should hope that they will encourage a new user to fill them out! --Peter Talk 04:25, 1 November 2009 (EST)
    • Agreed, but I think you meant Borneo 8) Jpatokal 10:20, 1 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support, slightly grudgingly. It is good when DoTM are actually nice places and I dont't like Kuching much. I know likes and dislikes are supposed to be irrelevant, however... :) More objectively, it is a good article for sure and certainly worthy of a DoTM. --Burmesedays 10:32, 1 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support AHeneen 01:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Kabul

I've given some love to this article by updating, formatting/cleaning up, and adding history. An interesting destination for the most seasoned of travelers, you could make a case for it as OtBP--few tourists (mostly military, businessmen, & redevelopment people), it's close to a war zone (and thus perceived as dangerous and off the beaten track), and it has a history of isolation & war (including much of the past 30 years)--but I have nominated it as DotM because despite its historical isolation it is a name recognized by most Westerners as Afghanistan's capital, number of visitors is high despite low number of tourists, it is rather safe despite its proximity to war zones to the south (towards Kandahar) & east (towards Jalalabad), and it is a large city and a regional center of culture and trade. The first 2 arguments for were brought up in discussions(Nov 08) over the nomination of Riyadh as a DotM.

The article is not perfect, as I struggled to find addresses or locations of some of the "see" listings I wonder whether much of Kabul has much of a street numbering system (even the US embassy does not list a number in describing there location). So one of two things needs to be done: some of you could help find out locations or we could just leave it as is and assume taxi drivers know where these places are and how to get there. A recent map would be nice along with more info to fill the "orientaion" section (or else it can be removed) and another thing I couldn't find was info for "Get in/By bus"...a simple note of where bus stations are is all that's needed. Aside from these couple of small problems, the article is a beauty and I'm going ahead with nominating it so it can get a decent spot in line to fill summer DotM slots. May-August seems like the appropriate window for Kabul. AHeneen 01:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)

  • Support A great article, except for a few things which need to be cleaned up as mentioned above. AHeneen 01:39, 14 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support. I'm rather amazed at the quality of this article! I agree that it should be featured as a DotM for the reasons you outline above. --Peter Talk 07:12, 14 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support This is a nice article for an interesting city. Some minor things that I'd add to be worked on: The Bagh-e Zanana is a place where only women can enter, right? It says "dedicated to women", which is awkward English, so if it means what I suspect it means, the wording should be changed (even if it doesn't, the wording could be clearer). The Bagh-e Bala should probably have some information about it (history, significance, the usual). Stadiums and cinemas are "Do"s, right? Also, "Money" probably shouldn't be its own heading. I'll make it a sub-heading of "Buy". ChubbyWimbus 15:46, 14 November 2009 (EST)
Yes, the park is women-only according to its Wikipedia article. I guess I overlooked a couple of things, feel free to add info...I'll see when I have time if I can fill in some more info. AHeneen 23:07, 14 November 2009 (EST)
Okay, I've added some info for Bagh-e Bala and moved the stadium and cinema to the "Do" section. I also added content to the Bagh-e Zanana BUT most of the content came from this website:[4] The information is interesting, but I posted it in case someone wanted to challenge the info. I don't have any personal knowledge about the city, so if the article reeks of political agenda and seems false, feel free to get rid of the info and add a better description! ChubbyWimbus 01:20, 15 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support wow, nice work, i have also considered nominting Mogadishu for a while, since it's one of our most loved articles, if twitter is anything to go for, but I've no idea how to push it the last stretch. This one is already there, very good content. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 17:49, 14 November 2009 (EST)
If it is even possible to get it to guide status, given the difficulty of getting info about the city. How about Hargeisa, also in Somalia but DRASTICALLY safer, easier to visit, and very inviting to tourists. I read quite a bit about tourism in Kurdistan (Iraq) and looked through all its city articles, but only a couple (Dahuk & Arbil) were even at outline status and I knew I could not find enough info to bring them up to OtBP status. I would love to see some more articles from off-the-beaten-path countries. AHeneen 23:07, 14 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support Very good work. --Burmesedays 00:52, 19 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support This article is great and offers a DotM that most people would rule out as a travel destination. jan 03:27, 20 November 2009 (EST)
  • Maybe.... good work on the history section, that was much needed! However most of the listings in this article, especially the eat listings, were added years ago and I suspect are fairly outdated.... but I don´t know for sure. I worked on the few that I visited when I was there 3 years ago, but that wasn´t many. Also, for a destination such as this I think a good map is essential.... enough so that I would probably withold support until it has one. Re the question above about addresses, I don´t remember them being particularly relavent.... I don´t think taxi drivers use them much.... and I recall paying much more attention to intersections and dots on maps than addresses. Also about the bus stations.... I recall Kabul as fantastically complicated to get in and out of.... there are departure points scattered all over the place with minibuses headed to various locales.... tell a taxi driver where you want to go and he´ll take you to where the buses depart.... and probably get it wrong at least once – cacahuate talk 22:55, 19 December 2009 (EST)
Remarkably, OSM [5] has good coverage of Kabul! It shouldn't be hard at all to put up a basic import, but someone other than me will need to choose what part of the city needs to be covered in the map. Better to do that at Talk:Kabul. --Peter Talk 00:30, 20 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Death Valley

I was browsing when I saw this one. Although it's only at usable status, it has enough stuff for guide status--the only problem I see is the fact that nothing has an address. Not quite sure if it's a DOTM or OTBP, but I tend towards DOTM b/c it definitely has name recognition. Don't know much about time, other than Summer is a no. Rastapopulous 20:15, 18 November 2009 (EST)

  • Support, obviously. Rastapopulous 20:21, 18 November 2009 (EST)
  • Almost. A few things are needed first. In addition to looking up addresses, I think the article would need descriptions for the buy listings, and there are a few other significant mos issues related to content placement & section headers. Once those things are taken care of, I'd support it for OtBP—I don't think Death Valley is too often visited. Per the article's intro, Many potential visitors ignore the park.... --Peter Talk 20:47, 18 November 2009 (EST)
I've never been there nor do I know the area, but I can probably do some addresses. Should there be coordinates for the sights in-park? Rastapopulous 20:49, 18 November 2009 (EST)
  • So almost nothing actually has an address in Death Valley (even hotels and the like), but some things have GPS coordinates. Should those be used instead? Rastapopulous 17:32, 19 November 2009 (EST)
    • Presumably even a hotel is on some road, and that road has a name, yes? Do you have an example of one that is not? LtPowers 17:57, 19 November 2009 (EST)
Yes, they are on named roads, but Highway 190 South isn't a terribly useful address... Rastapopulous 18:01, 19 November 2009 (EST)
Sure it is; it's at least half the information you need. =) No reason to leave it out, is there? LtPowers 09:59, 20 November 2009 (EST)
I could certainly include it. However, I think I should add GPS coordinates too. Rastapopulous 10:50, 20 November 2009 (EST)
I don't see why not; that's what the "lat" and "long" fields are for. LtPowers 13:02, 20 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Figueres

User:Primecoordinator has done a fantastic job fixing up the guide for this smallish town in Catalonia the last of couple of days, good enough to put it up on the front page metinks.

  • Support --Stefan (sertmann) talk 18:07, 25 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support definitely. --DenisYurkin 12:47, 10 December 2009 (EST)
  • Support cool! Thanks for mentioning it. Just glad to help out and give 'Figui' a bit more credit as it's a nice place. Primecoordinator 00:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC+1)
  • Support. Very good work! Couple of tweaks: Eat and Sleep should be split into budget/midrange/splurge, and Drink needs a couple of bar/pub listings. Jpatokal 21:18, 19 December 2009 (EST)
  • Support Done and done. Primecoordinator 19:00, 22 December 2009 (PST)
  • Support, looks really nice, except for the 'get out' section which is really long. globe-trotter 19:10, 3 January 2010 (EST)
  • Soft support because get out section needs some work. It is almost entirely linked to non-existent or empty articles. I think, that this needs to be changed before it can be a DotM. jan 08:09, 1 February 2010 (EST)

[edit] Newcastle upon Tyne

Superbly written and even better presented. Not far short of star quality. And a fine, interesting city to boot. In summer, of course. --Burmesedays 11:14, 21 December 2009 (EST)

  • Support A nice article and looks like a great place to visit. The Drink section seems to be the longest in the article--is there a good reason for that (I guess this is England) or has every pub in the city been listed. A few "see" listings don't have an address/location. The Understand section in general could be lengthened...a lot of listings in the article are mentioned by district/street and so an "orientation" section would be useful; climate and more history (four sentences for 2000 years!?) would also be helpful additions to the article. Those few improvements aside, the article is very nice and I think it is a good choice to feature as DotM. As far as timing goes, would summer be best? There's three festivals that sound interesting in June, July, and August. AHeneen 21:53, 21 December 2009 (EST)
  • Support Surprised I never noticed this one before. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 19:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)
  • Support. This is pretty much exactly what we want from a featured article, it's a guide article in fine shape, covers an interesting destination, and immediately makes a compelling case for visiting. --Peter Talk 22:07, 22 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Jiuzhaigou Nature Reserve

Ooh, a non-city Chinese DOTM candidate! The information is all in there and pretty pictures too, although a little cleanup is needed (esp. Sleep). Jpatokal 20:51, 19 January 2010 (EST)

  • Support. I really like this article. It does need more clean up as Jani says (I have already done a fair bit). Would be nice if one of our China hands completed the job. --Burmesedays 21:16, 19 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support. Very nice article, with just a little bit of clean-up. In the intro the first thing mentioned that the park is famous for is pandas...any panda pics for the article or info on where to see them? AHeneen 23:31, 19 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support. Great article! Especially considering we tend to have relatively few good park articles outside North America. If I may speak for those more or less Sino-illiterate, it looks like an OtBP, but I'll leave that decision to others. --Peter Talk 23:49, 19 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support I definitely agree with AHeneen. If it is famous for its pandas, there should be picture of a panda (in the park) on the page. I also think the page could benefit from weeding out som pictures. I like the head image, and the Grass Lake, Mirror Lake, Suzheng Village. The other pictures could go (and add a panda), in my opinion. ChubbyWimbus 00:34, 20 January 2010 (EST)
Panda picture yes, as that is why it is a UNESCO WHS, but let's keep it honest as the writer did. You have a close to zero chance of seeing one. I would imagine there are Snow Leopards there as well - you also won't see one. I will have a good dig later and come up with a representative flora and fauna section for the article. --Burmesedays 00:46, 20 January 2010 (EST)
Peter made a good point: This park seems OtBP. I've been to China, but not here. Anyone know this park? Is it a DotM-worthy place or OtBP? ChubbyWimbus 21:33, 20 January 2010 (EST)
With 2.5m visitors, it's obviously not OTBP to the Chinese, but a case could be made that it's OTBP for an English-speaking audience. (Not the first time this has popped up...) Jpatokal 03:39, 21 January 2010 (EST)
Yup. And that's an issue that will crop up more and more. We have the same with Bromo. --Burmesedays 03:46, 21 January 2010 (EST)
I have added a bit more about flora and fauna. We also need to look at the name of the article. I think it should be National Park and not Nature Reserve. Or we could use the Wikipedia solution which is Jiuzhaigou Valley. The latter might be best as much of the attraction for general visitors is the natural scenery, not the ecology. --Burmesedays 05:03, 21 January 2010 (EST)

[edit] Antigua Guatemala

Anne has put a bunch of work into this guide lately, and I think it looks pretty great. It's a world heritage site and Guatemala's top city destination, so I think it would be fine dotm material.

  • Support. --Peter Talk 19:55, 30 March 2009 (EDT)
Wow! This looks good! Is there a more appropriate place to put the "laundry" information aside from the Buy section? It really doesn't seem to belong there. 58.191.155.98 04:51, 1 April 2009 (EDT)
It's normally a "Cope" topic, and I see that someone has moved it there. Support. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 14:19, 9 April 2009 (EDT)
  • Support And again, nice to see dotm/otbp ready guides, outside our "core" areas' of North America and Asia. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 08:45, 1 April 2009 (EDT)
  • Almost support. It is looking pretty good and has a ton of listings, but the see section is very weak, and should be one of the strongest. The article could also use a serious copyedit and a small beating with the MoS stick – cacahuate talk 17:52, 25 May 2009 (EDT)
Update: needs even more cleanup after today's verbose additions – cacahuate talk 21:27, 31 May 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, a lot of work has been put into the article post-nomination, which has added good content, but has also mangled the English and some of the structural style. It shouldn't take that much work to get this back up to a DotM level of polish, but that work should be done before we feature it. --Peter Talk 01:02, 23 June 2009 (EDT)
I tried to work on MoS items. I posted a thought about currency usage on the discussion page and changed most entries to local currency but left some in USD since some prices/locations seem to accept USD quite easily.Zepppep 13:34, 21 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support anew. I've restored this nomination from the slush pile, as I think Zepppep has resolved the outstanding issues, and this looks like it will be a good feature! --Peter Talk 15:44, 21 January 2010 (EST)
Hmm... The "See" section still isn't Wikified. It lists worthwhile places ("La Catedral, el Palacio de los Gobernadores, Convento de Capuchinas, Convento de Santa Clara, el Arco de Santa Catarina, Iglesia La Merced and the Handcrafts Market") but shouldn't they each then be given their own listing? They are kind of glazed over, but if someone were to visit using our guide, I imagine they would want that extra information. ChubbyWimbus 01:34, 22 January 2010 (EST)
  • Tentative support, as it is an interesting guide to a popular destination. But I would like to see some more work done on it. The first half looks a bit like an essay and would benefit from some sub-sections. A history sub-section is a glaring ommision from understand, when the destination is all about history. Most of the existing understand section could go into an orientation sub-section. Get in needs some categorisation. Perhaps split into "from the airport", "from Guatemala City" etc? I would support ChubbyWimbus' point about formalising attractions in the see section. Get out is very long and not really in line with the stated purpose of that section. All easy to put right I think. --Burmesedays 01:50, 22 January 2010 (EST)

[edit] Nominations for Off the Beaten Path

[edit] Tobacco Caye

In an effort to break a record for shortest time from article creation to otbp nom, ladies and gentleboys, I present you Tobacco Caye, in 4 minutes flat. You can stand on one shore, and with powerful lungs, spit across to the other. Aside from Caribbean hurricane season, there's not a terrible time to feature it. And no, there's not very much more you can say about it, it's a small article, and will likely always remain so – cacahuate talk 21:06, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Support Everything obviously looks to be in order :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 01:38, 23 January 2009 (EST)

  • Support - Great little article. Let's run this in November or December, after the hurricane season and as the weather in North America grows cold again. (It's when people start thinking about their Caribbean vacations). WineCountryInn 15:05, 24 January 2009 (EST)
  • Support -- with reservations. The article certainly qualifies on its merits, but I'm detecting a growing tendency not to consider a place "really" OtBP unless it's a dinky desert island in the middle of nowhere. If we do use this one (and make no mistake, I favor it), let's slot it in at a time when some other kinds of OtBPs have been in the spotlight for a while. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:57, 24 February 2009 (EST)
  • Support —The preceding comment was added by 188.81.114.167‎ (talk • contribs)

[edit] Flores (Guatemala)

I noticed it in the Star nomination slush pile and thought it had potential to make it as an Off the Beaten Track candidate. ChubbyWimbus 03:05, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

  • Support. This seems up to OtBP standards to me. And the objections last time around were fairly minor—I'm actually surprised that it was slushed, rather than moved to OtBP. Usually I'd nuke the tour operators, but Guatemala can be a hairy place, I suppose. (And I don't know enough about it to judge which ones to remove. --Peter Talk 03:41, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
  • Moderate support. Having visited it a few months ago, I realized how far off my old dreams of star status for Flores were. Unfortunately a lost passport thwarted my plans of making it an awesome star article while I was in town. Many of the listings are not on the map, and I think several of them may not even exist anymore, but I made a new map today and placed as much as I could. It is a decent article, but it can get a lot better.... and is still way behind LP's coverage ;) It would also be ideal for the Tikal article to be up to guide status, since that's the reason 90% of Flores' visitors are here (and if it were up to status, I would propose it instead). But I think it may suffice if nothing better comes along – cacahuate talk 15:14, 17 May 2009 (EDT)
  • Don't support Neutral - I ran into this a while ago, while looking for candidates outside our usual areas' (Asia & North America), and considered nominating it - but decided against it since I found a lot of the information really lagging. A good example is the do listings "rent a canoe/hire a covered boat" fine, but some listings - or in case it's to disorganised for listings, some information on where to do this/how much should I pay, would be nice. and Wes' comments above just add's to that. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 15:52, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Hilversum

Thanks to User:Globe-trotter, this page looks really great! At a glance, the only thing I can see that it needs is pictures. ChubbyWimbus 01:20, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

  • Support. Wow—Globe-trotter did a lot of work this week! It looks great. More pictures would certainly be nice, but I think it's already up to OtBP standards. --Peter Talk 04:04, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Thanks a lot for the nomination! :) You are right about the pictures, I came home yesterday and will try to make some and add them to the page. Globe-trotter 15:17, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Support Preferably with, but also without extra images. Very complete, and jaw-dropping maps :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 18:06, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Amazing work! What's the best time for this, spring? Jpatokal 22:34, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
  • I'd say April-September is the best climate here, in the winter it's not so pleasant cycling or walking around. Globe-trotter 10:10, 28 August 2009 (EDT)
  • I added some pictures, and I'll add some more later on. Globe-trotter 19:33, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Falun

Wow, this old mining town in North-western Sweden must be one of the best destination guides in Scandinavia! Very nearly a star even. I think many people explore our previously off the beaten path guides, so featuring it more prominently might push it the last stretch. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 07:21, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

Support. Amazing article! Jpatokal 08:06, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
Support. Very good article indeed. --Burmesedays 10:05, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
Chuckle. I'm in China and the Great Firewall won't let me read that article. Pashley 10:11, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
G-O-N-G! :) --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 10:13, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
Support Good article that should be featured in late spring or early summer. jan 13:56, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. A shame Jake forswore future mapmaking—that's a nice one! --Peter Talk 19:08, 9 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Superb photos, a map, and tight formatting. Nothing not to like. Gorilla Jones 23:09, 15 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Ravello

A little jewel on the Amalfi coast apparently, someone put a lot of work and love into this - unlike most of our other Italian destinations outside salvaged Rome. Guess we could have the whole DoTM OtBP path discussion again, but even though it's a relatively popular destination (in the hugely popular amalfi coast) but it's only home of 2,500 people. I really don't care either way, as long as it's featured - so be my guest to move it up there.

  • Support obviously --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 12:33, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Looks like you need another category. This a great little article. But perhaps Ravello is not big enough nor easy enough to reach for DoTM. On the other hand it's not exactly OtBP either.Shep 13:39, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Strong support Stefan, how do you find this great articles? Nevertheless Ravello is in imho a OtBP and excellent for the scenery and the good wine.jan 13:58, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support. Ravello is gorgeous—I always snicker a little when Americans rave about their profligate vacations in Tuscany (which I rather think looks like Virginia...), when they miss out on the Amalfi Coast. A fine little article, and I think it's fine for OtBP (whereas the Amalfi Coast as a whole or Sorrento would be DotM material). --Peter Talk 15:41, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Support I think the page would look better if the Ravello Cathedral image was removed. It looks like a postcard, and the copyright pasted onto the picture is annoying. Would anyone be opposed to getting rid of it? The page has plenty of nice photos and the church photo is not particularly grand anyway. ChubbyWimbus 14:10, 28 October 2009 (EDT)
Going to remove it, and vfd'ed on shared, it's under ND. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 14:32, 28 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Franklin (Venango County)

Surprisingly, there are not many American nominees, and if I'm not mistaken, this would be the first feature from Pennsylvania. Because the OtBP's operate from the 15 of each month, this would be best featured in September so that it would cover Applefest in early October. ChubbyWimbus 00:11, 30 October 2009 (EDT)

  • Support I thought support by the nominator was implied, but I guess most people also give support below, so I'll do the same. ChubbyWimbus 15:49, 14 November 2009 (EST)
  • Support - would like some section introductions, but it's up to scratch, and a nice example of what small-town, USA articles could be. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 17:55, 14 November 2009 (EST)
  • Meh I'm not sure there's enough things to see/do to justify featuring it as an OtBP. The way I imagine OtBP is featuring little-known places that WT browsers would want to travel from far away to visit. While Franklin seems like a nice place to stop by if I were traveling through, there's nothing spectacular about the town that I feel warrants it any special recognition. It has a church (as if there aren't hundreds of historic churches in the Northeast/Midwest), a couple small museums (none noteworthy), and a racetrack (again, not a noteworthy one). Everything else in see & do sections can be found in most small towns...park, ice rink, theater, bowling alleys. Plus, almost every small town in the Northeast/Midwest hosts some kind of fall festival. So, in my opinion, it's just another non-noteworthy small town. Use this for OtBP as a last resort only. AHeneen 00:19, 6 December 2009 (EST)
  • I am sort of with AHeneen on this one. Well written and presented but it is just not very interesting. Why would the article make anybody go there? The first thing you read is that there are cheap flights from Cleveland. An understand section would help I guess. I am all for American articles being nominated but I would have thought there are more captivating articles than this one? --Burmesedays 00:35, 6 December 2009 (EST)
I have wondered the same about some destinations, but we have featured Spring Green (there is less to do there than in Franklin, and I don't imagine international tourists wanting to plan a trip there. It looks like a place of interest to domestic tourists that have never heard of it before). The cities of Sligo and Saint Martins Island also seem to have nothing really to do or see, but they were featured. Is this article somehow worse than those? I guess I was under the impression that all cities that can sustain an article would be able to become DotM or OtBP once the article was up to standard. I think some OtBPs are the "hidden gems"-type of destinations and other cities may be more "if you're in the area, you may want to check out this city"-type of destinations. Do you think the second type should not be featured? ChubbyWimbus 16:24, 6 December 2009 (EST)
I can't agree with those comparisons, since they all have pretty clear angles. Spring Green is utterly bizarre, and a real top destination for American architecture fans—worth making the 3 hour trek from Chicago; Sligo is one of our nine Irish cities, and the principal population center in the northwest of Ireland, through which anyone in the area will likely pass; and St Martins Island is a tropical paradise, and one of our only 5 ODs for Bangladesh. These aren't simply useful articles, they're things that pique interest in trips (and in using our guides on those trips). The one tiny PA town that would fit that angle that I can think of would be the ever ridiculous Punxsutawney (if it were a good article).
The Franklin guide looks like a great one for anyone passing through the area, but is there a reason why people would seek it out? Per our criteria, personal affection for the destination isn't a valid reason to oppose a nomination, but I'd still like to remind of the consideration that the DotM/OtBP's sole purpose here is to get people interested in the site. It would at least be nice if the article had an understand section highlighting what makes the town really unique/important and worth seeking out. IMO, though, this is the kind of article I'd rather see pushed to star status (since it would be a nice example of how to properly do a small US town) than featured as a dotm.
Also, I think these two factoids need to make it into that article ;) --Peter Talk 16:57, 6 December 2009 (EST)
But even from as close as Pennsylvania, I can't imagine anyone planning a trip just to visit Spring Green. It just wouldn't seem worth it unless you were also going somewhere else. I agree that Spring Green looks interesting, but a three hour trip from Chicago is still a nice day trip. People make similar trips to Franklin from Buffalo. I would be surprised if people from Europe, Asia, etc. planned special trips just to go to either Spring Green or Franklin. That's why I think it's like Franklin, not because it's "boring". I thought it was a "cute" feature.
At any rate, to answer your question about "Why should someone visit Franklin?", people typically visit Franklin to view all of the Victorian architecture, get away from the city/see some nature, and to see the church (although AHaneen considers it to be like any other "historic" church, I think it's more liked than many American historic churches, because the windows are the focus rather than the history. Of course, those who don't like Tiffany will likely not be impressed). I don't know if that makes it sound any better... Franklin is part of the Oil Region (where oil was first discovered/drilled in North America and the Standard Oil Company was founded), so a visit to Franklin usually entails a visit to Titusville and maybe Oil City or Pithole. Probably if this were being featured with Titusville or as Venango County, its value and interest to travelers would be more evident.
I will work on adding some sort of "Understand" information, as there is actually no mention of the Victorian houses, and only small allusions are made to the oil history, which are both important. Feel free to add more critiques, though. I don't think it's that far off from a star, although there is no map. ChubbyWimbus 02:50, 14 December 2009 (EST)

Okay, I added an understand section that *may* make the page more appealing. I also added the "Walking Tours", since the architecture is so popular, and taking the tour would likely make visiting much more interesting. Does it need something more? ChubbyWimbus 21:38, 23 December 2009 (EST)

I quite like the article now, I don't see the reason why not to support it. I think this is the charm of Wikitravel: it features destinations that no other travel guide would ever think of. globe-trotter 20:19, 7 January 2010 (EST)
  • Now Support. Well done ChubbyWimbus with the changes. I suggest one this is ear-marked for September 2010. --Burmesedays 21:29, 7 January 2010 (EST)

[edit] Kawasaki

I've been involved with Wikitravel - mostly on Japan related articles - for a few years now. Can't believe it's been this long, and yet here I am making my first plunge into a suggestion for DOTM/OTBP. I would like to suggest for OTBP, IF we can expanding the article more or get help doing so, the city of Kawasaki. Overlooked between Kanto's two major cities, Tokyo and Yokohama, it has a charm all its own as well as a few interesting attractions... Kawasaki Daishi being the prime one. It would be a perfect fit for April, since the city's main matsuri occurs at the beginning of the month at Hachimangu. JRHorse 20:52, 19 December 2009 (EST)

  • Support, and agree that it's OTBP -- pretty much off the radar even for Japanese tourists. April is perfect, as it's Iron Penis Festival time as well! Jpatokal 21:06, 19 December 2009 (EST)
I can see a good burb text, but a 1,3 mio population and not a single bar? and one single restaurant? I think most of locals head of Yokahama and Tokyo, but still, at least a drink listing should be added before a feature. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 08:55, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Added a Drink listing today, HUB Kawasaki. JRHorse 00:24, 15 January 2010 (EST)

[edit] Tromsø

For reasons that still baffles me, someone decided to spend a great deal of time whipping up an amazing guide for this nice arctic city, but then flat out refused to include any sort of practical information like addresses or phone numbers in the listings. It's been bugging me for quite some time, so I've tried my best to remedy the situation, include all the missing practical information and bring it more in line with the MOS. Time to feature this I think - best June-August with the midnight sun February-March for the Aurora and many outdoor winter activities. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 18:19, 29 December 2009 (EST)

  • Support. Looks like a straightforwardly great feature, and I'll take your word that we should use it for dotm instead of otbp. --Peter Talk 10:52, 30 December 2009 (EST)
I'm not at all sure, are Murmansk/Nuuk/Fairbanks OtBP? if so, this should probably be as well. But as far as Scandinavia is concerned, it's a pretty major destination, and with a population of some 65.000, it's by far the largest city in Northern Scandinavia. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 14:10, 7 January 2010 (EST)

[edit] Sakhalin

This one is dear to me, my first feeble edits on Wikitravel was to the Korsakov guide, while sitting at the post office desperately trying to figure out where the hell I could by tickets for the ferry to Japan, information which it turned out was impossible to find anywhere both off and online. After a nice Russian grandpa type (who didn't speak any English) working in the harbour spend half a day helping me to find the small hidden-away office selling tickets, I got involved in Wikitravel, hoping to save other adventurers the same trouble. After that experience I'm quite confident that our information Sakhalin is unrivalled anywhere on the internet! (at least in English), it's certainly leaps and bounds ahead of my Lonely Planet guide.

You may find some sections of the Okha and Alexandrovsk-Sakhalinsky guides deceptively empty, but trust me, it has taken many hours of work, ploughing through books and Russian websites just to get the sections filled up with what's there now - I think the hotel in Alexandrovsk alone took 4-5 hours just to find an address and phone number. Many of the pictures are results of personal requests to get them released under the CC licence, I'm especially happy about the reindeer picture, Thanks Aleut!. The Literature section on the main article are waiting for Mr Fitzgerald to finish reading up on Anton Chekov, but it's easily fixed, or the section can always be removed before a feature. The reason I'm suggesting it now, is I want to swap it in for April or May, when the mountains go light green over the dark volcanic rocks - it looks amazing!

I want to try to do it as a double feature, also linking to Russia to Japan via Sakhalin itinerary in the OtBP blurb text, so please check that one for any show stoppers as well. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 15:53, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Support. It's a great work. Something about Russia that should be translated from English into Russian, and not the other way around. The information on the web about Sakhalin is indeed scarce, so the articles look fairly complete. Still, I should say that searching for the hotel in Alexandrovsk took me less than one minute (maybe, things changed). If you feel that it is worth to do more search through Russian websites, I can try this. It will also be a pleasure for me to do the translatations for Russian version of Wikitravel. Atsirlin 17:25, 9 January 2010 (EST)
He, it probably helps when you're not forced to rely on robots, any help on making those two cities look more complete in the eat, drink and buy sections will obviously be much appreciated.  :o) Though, Peter had many problems as well, and he speaks Russian. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 18:30, 9 January 2010 (EST)
It's tricky. You should scan through numerous travel reports (mainly from backpackers), and you have to know where to find them. OK, I will try, and let's see what comes out. At first glance, I can see that you missed one important thing about the ferry: it is strongly subject to weather conditions, especially in winter time. Once or twice a year these ferries just stop for a week (it is a disaster, because cars and goods get jammed in Vanino). I will start to translate the articles and will try to add things on-the-fly. Atsirlin 07:46, 10 January 2010 (EST)
OK, I have found this thing in the Kholmsk article, but the warning about the unstable ferry schedule should be stronger, I guess. Atsirlin 07:54, 10 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support. Great guide, and probably the only great guide, to a fascinating OtBP destination. And ah, I forgot about the lit section—I was about to do that before the drawn-out DDOS attack ;) --Peter Talk 17:31, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support I think you did a good self-assessment though with the need for descriptions in most of the "Eat" sections. Because the individual cities on the island do not offer much on their own, I think it is important for what is there to be complete (as far as descriptions go). Okha could also be improved with a picture or two (if possible).
For the Russia to Japan via Sakhalin article, I wonder if it needs a "Get out" section. If so, I guess that would just be a list of cities near the terminus Wakkanai? I think the article is great with coverage of how to make the trip. The article is meant to be only about the transportation, right? I ask only because it doesn't suggest what to do in each city along the way as an "itinerary" ChubbyWimbus 19:18, 9 January 2010 (EST)
I have 3 requests out for permission to use some images for Okha under CC, but no replies so far, and it's months since I send them emails. There are also many good pictures on Panoramio, but the one request I made have gotten no response either (probably doesn't speak any English). There are no usable CC licensed ones available at all (at least that I can find).
As for itinirary, yes only transportation, I wanted to leave what to see etc. to the actual guides, think it works better there. I'll try to get Khabarovsk and Wakkanai up to usable before a feature, just as a show-off :) --Stefan (sertmann) talk 19:32, 9 January 2010 (EST)
  • Support. Very, very interesting article. --Burmesedays 06:28, 10 January 2010 (EST)
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