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Wikitravel:Votes for deletion

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This page contains lists of articles and images which are recommended for deletion. Any Wikitraveller can recommend an article or image for deletion, and any Wikitraveller can comment on the deletion nomination. Articles and images are presumed guilty until proven innocent. After fourteen (14) days of discussion, if a consensus is reached to retain an article, it won't be deleted. Otherwise it will be deleted by an administrator. Please read the Nominating and Commenting sections prior to nominating articles/images or commenting on nominations.

See also:

[edit] Nominating

The basic format for a deletion nomination is the following: 

===[[Chicken]]===
* Delete.  Not a valid travel article topic. ~~~~

Please follow these steps when nominating an article or image for deletion:

  1. First read the deletion policy and verify that the article or image really is a candidate for deletion. If you are unsure, bring up the issue on the talk page.
  2. For the article or image being proposed for deletion, add a {{vfd}} tag so that people viewing the article will know that it is proposed for deletion. The {{vfd}} tag must be the very first thing in the article, right at the very top, before everything else.
  3. Add a link to the article or image at the end of the list below, along with the reason why it is being listed for deletion. Sign your vote using four tildes ("~~~~"). List one article or image per entry.
  4. If you're nominating an image for deletion, make sure it's actually located on the English Wikitravel... many images are located on Wikitravel Shared, in which case they should be nominated for deletion over there instead.

[edit] Commenting

All Wikitravellers are asked to state their opinion about articles and images listed for deletion. The format for comments is: 

===[[Chicken]]===
* '''Delete'''.  Not a valid travel article topic. TravelNut 25:25, 31 Feb 2525 (EDT)
* '''Keep'''.  There is a town in [[Alaska]] called Chicken. ~~~~

When leaving comments:

  1. First read the deletion policy and verify that the article or image really is a candidate for deletion.
  2. You may vote to delete, keep, or redirect the article. If your opinion is that the article should be kept or redirected, please state why. If you are in favor of redirection, you may suggest where it should be redirected to. Sign your vote using four tildes ("~~~~").

[edit] Deleting, or not

After fourteen (14) days of discussion, there will probably be consensus one way or the other. If the consensus is to keep, redirect or merge, then any Wikitraveller can do it. If you are redirecting, please remember to check for broken redirects or double redirects as a result of your move. Remove any VFD notices from that page, and archive the deletion discussion as described in the next section.

If the result is delete, then only an administrator can delete. Check if any article links to the image or article in question. After removing those links, delete the image or article. However, if the image is being deleted because it has been moved to the shared repository with the same name, do not remove links to the images, as the links will be automatically be pointed to the shared repository.

[edit] Archiving

After you keep/redirect/merge/delete the article, move the deletion discussion to the Archives page for the appropriate month. The root Archives page has a directory. Note that it's the month in which the action was taken, rather than when the nomination was first posted, that should be used for the archived discussion; that way, recourse to the deletion log can lead subsequent readers right to the discussion (at least for the pages that were deleted).

If the nominated article was not deleted, then place another (identical duplicate) copy of the deletion discussion on the talk page of the article being kept or redirected.

[edit] July 2009

[edit] Chinatown

This seems like a useless disambiguation. Does Wikitravel really aim to list EVERY Chinatown in the world? ChubbyWimbus 19:22, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

No, but we should certainly list the ones for which we have articles. =) LtPowers 20:08, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. It's an odd disambiguation, but better to have the links than not, both for the odd search and possibly for our own SEO. And actually, this one is a borderline travel topic. --Peter Talk 20:53, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. The question here is whether this is a true disambiguation, or whether it is just the start of a list of attractions of a particular type. If it is just a list, which I think it inevitably will be, is it one of true interest to travellers, or is it just a Wikipedia style obsessive list making type of list? --inas 21:37, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
  • I think Inas is right, and Wikipedia already has a list. See here [1]. Our "Chinatown" page is definitely moving to mirror the Wikipedia page as articles grow and are added (I added some myself to see what it would look like prior to the Wikipedia search). As far as helping the traveller goes, maybe we should give the travellers a little credit. Someone searching for a Chinatown would likely put the city in the search with it. If they don't, and they are just searching in the cosmos for any old Chinatown then I would question the seriousness of their travel plans. If it were made into a travel topic, then what sort of information would we add to make it useful? The name "Chinatown" is probably as good of a description as any. ChubbyWimbus 01:01, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
The wp list contains loads of travel-irrelevant junk. (I've heard rumors that a Baltimore Chinatown did at one time exist, but I'm skeptical of even that.) The current page is more useful (and interesting), since it only links to Chinatowns that we actually cover.
Our policy on disambiguation pages gives When destinations share identical names as one of the three cases when such pages can be used. This is clearly such a case—Chinatown is place in NYC as well as a place in Chicago, D.C., etc. I don't see any reason to delete it—a coherent collection of blue links like that may actually raise our search engine profile with people doing vague google searches for "chinatown". --Peter Talk 05:08, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
As long as we keep it to articles that we actually have, rather than any city that could be said to have a Chinatown, I think this disambiguation page is necessary and useful, just like Downtown. LtPowers 10:06, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
I can't believe Wikitravel has a Downtown disambiguation. A little embarrassing... Even the small town I am from has a "downtown" area. That's about as useful as creating a disambiguation page for McDonalds and listing every city with a McDonalds. So the real rationale for having these pages is to get Wikitravel on Google? I don't really consider them to be "destinations with the same name" as NYC and Chicago do not have the same name, and certainly "Downtown" is not a "destination". I agree that the pages aren't hurting anything, but they don't seem useful either. ChubbyWimbus 17:50, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
I agree. The downtown article is definitely useless, and verging on plain silly.
The suggestion of limiting entries on a disamb page to geographies for which we have an article isn't current policy or practice for disamb pages. If we are going to make a list of Chinatown's, then we should at least aim to be fairly comprehensive. --inas 20:21, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I think districts are a special case. Yeah, we list redlinks for every community with a particular name on most disambiguation pages, but Chinatown and Downtown are clearly going to be districts; I see no reason we can't restrict those to just the ones for which we have articles. LtPowers 21:01, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
Should we then add all of the districts titled with "East", "North", "South", and "West" to those disambiguation pages? Should "Uptown" get it's own disambiguation? What about "San"? These sorts of disambiguations just seem ridiculous. Travellers shouldn't need babied to such an extent that we create disambiguation pages for non-destinations. Just because someone types "ass" into the search, doesn't mean we need to create a disambiguation page to help them find Assisi.
Also, how do we distinguish which we "have articles" for? For example (going back to the Chinatown article): the Philippines entry I added is not Manila/Chinatown however, the page says it's the Chinatown of Manila. The Japan entries are just links to the city pages, because these cities are not large enough for districts, but they have Chinatowns (and they're quite famous). Is this supposed to be a disambiguation page just to list Wikitravel's travel breakdown (aka: city/Chinatown) or is it a list of actual Chinatowns? I feel like you are suggesting just adding the designated Wikitravel category breakdowns, but that seems rather arbitrary, because we would then need to delete all the Japan entries and the Philippines entry. ChubbyWimbus 21:45, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I'd be interested in your reasoning here. For example Sydney has a Sydney/Chinatown article. This looks like it is going to change to Sydney/City South. However, Sydney still has and will have always have a Chinatown district [2], regardless of how we choose to district the city on WT. If this article is a disamb, we aim to direct people searching for Chinatown to the appropriate district on WT. Assuming we want a list, why would we want the list to be less than comprehensive? --inas 21:23, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I didn't read LtPowers as saying that only articles called 'Chinatown' would be included on Chinatown. We have coverage for Sydney's Chinatown, whether it's on Sydney/Chinatown or Sydney/City South, so it would belong on the page. In any event, I think again it's more useful to think of this page as partly a travel topic as well. Chinatowns tell an interesting story about the Chinese immigrant experience, one that can be quite interesting to a cultural anthropologist. The more Chinatowns I've seen, the more interesting I find the next one. Gorilla Jones 21:58, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
I know this is under Chinatown, but concerning Downtown, it would have to work the same way, but that list would be insanely long! Otherwise, as stated for the Chinatown, it simply becomes an archive of Wikitravel category breakdowns rather than a complete list of cities with "downtowns". I don't see how either of them could be used. Although I don't necessarily feel that Chinatown is a "destination", someone is much more likely to use that page than the "Downtown" page.
I certainly don't want to put words into LtPowers keyboard, but As long as we keep it to articles that we actually have, rather than any city that could be said to have a Chinatown, sounds like it would exclude Sydney's Chinatown if there wasn't actually an article for it.
I agree that it could make an interesting cultural travel topic. This assumes that someone is going to come along at take it on. As I (and others) have said before, travel topics work well when someone takes on the initial work of getting them over the usable hurdle, otherwise they will more than likely languish and do the site a disservice.
And yes, obviously none of this reasoning applies to downtown. --inas 22:30, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
Agreed about Downtown. I'd vote 'delete' on that. Gorilla Jones 23:03, 26 July 2009 (EDT)
Since this could be converted into a travel topic, I suppose I will revoke my objections against Chinatown. ChubbyWimbus 00:04, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. Completely valid disambiguation page or even a travel topic, if curated attentively. Gorilla Jones 18:09, 25 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. Since it hasn't been receiving attentive curation, it's less useful than simply searching for "Chinatown". If an enterprising user comes along and decides to make it a true travel topic, they can recreate the page. - Dguillaime 14:22, 28 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep. The given reason for nomination, in my opinion, is completely ridiculous. --GnarlyLikeWhoa 19:21, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
Is that a substantive objection? I can see a line reasoning why we would want to build lists of Chinatowns around the world, and I can see a line of reasoning why we would benefit from a travel topic on Chinatowns and how they evolved, and where they are, and I can see a line of reasoning why having an index article to articles we have is a good idea. We don't quite know which one of these the article is trying to be, but there is some logic behind each of them. There is also a line of reasoning against each one. Building lists is best left for Wikipedia obsessives, we don't need it here. Having a travel topic as a long term stub detracts value from the site. There are a limited amount of resources, and an infinite number of travel topics are possible - we can't keep them all. If someone can't push them into usable articles then they should be deleted until someone is willing to step up. Having index articles as disambiguation article is a good idea, but when the name is so generic, it has little value to guide the traveller.
Which of these lines of reasoning do you consider to be "ridiculous", in your opinion? --inas 20:12, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
Inas, your comment doesn't make any sense. I considered ridiculous the reason given for the nomination. I agree there are many many different reasons for keeping it, including all the reasons you gave.
Do you understand how it may be baffling for me to ingest that last question? I didn't consider any of those reasons you gave to be ridiculous, only the thinking that we can't gather all the Chinatowns in the world. As I've stated on this site recently, this should be the most informative and inclusive site on the internet. To have all the information, or not have all the information, that is the question.
Simply deleting an article because it doesn't have all the Chinatowns in the world is not good reasoning.
In addition, I wasn't aware I even had to give a reason for my vote. If I do, sorry! Maybe I should have consulted you before I cast my vote for Obama.--GnarlyLikeWhoa 12:27, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
It does state above that commments should come with reasons under the "Commenting" header. My argument was not that it should be deleted because they are not all listed; I was questioning whether or not the list itself was useful. Also, once it was mentioned as a travel topic, I had asked what people suggested could be added to make it an informative travel topic. Both have been addressed to varying degrees. The comments may be difficult to follow, because upon mention of "Downtown" as an article, many of my comments (and others) were directed at that. Anyways, as a travel topic it has potential to be interesting, but I do question whether someone will actually make it a travel topic or if it will just remain a list. ChubbyWimbus 15:47, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
Gnarly - the votes for deletion page, is misleading, because it isn't actually just a vote, we are trying to reach a consensus one way or another. The only way that will work is if you try to convince others of your arguments, and you are willing, in turn, to be convinced by them. Sometimes, when the overwhelming sentiment goes one way, or you are convinced by someone else's arguments, there is not much use for reasons - they are apparent. But this one is a bit controversial, so substantive arguments and an effort to understand the other points of view get us closer to a consensus.
And your question To have all the information, or not have all the information, is right on the money IMO. I'm certainly in favor of not having all the information. Exhaustive lists is not what I think WT is about. -inas 19:17, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

To revisit this (in the hopes of perhaps reaching a resolution), what is our goal for the Chinatown page? Is this going to list worldwide Chinatowns (which there is a push against) or is this going to be a travel topic? If it is a travel topic, how do you propose preventing it from becoming a large list? ChubbyWimbus 02:21, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

We're pretty far from any consensus on this one, and it is part of a larger unresolved policy issue of when to disambiguate district articles that should not be resolved on the vfd page (it should be resolved at Wikitravel talk:Disambiguation pages). (If the article were curated as a travel topic, then it would clearly be a valid article, but it is not.)
So until we have that discussion, perhaps it would be better to keep for the time being, and copy this discussion to Talk:Chinatown? --Peter Talk 16:52, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Wikitravel:Cultural Expedition

I am bringing this up because of postings on the talk page that were rather unenthusiastic (and posted years ago). Even if it is kept, perhaps calling attention to it here will at least get some other opinions about whether this is a dead idea (which then should be deleted) or whether it is a good idea that just needs more attention. ChubbyWimbus 21:27, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

Even if we do declare it dead, I would recommend simply "deactivating" it rather than deleting the content. We can list it on Wikitravel:Expeditions as defunct or inactive. LtPowers 10:16, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
Delete. I'm not yet a card-carrying member of the everything on the wiki muct be kept for posterity club. This expedition has had no significant updates since it was created, no activity on the actual expedition. It never took off, was probably never a good idea, has no useful content, and we should blow it away, and move on. --inas 00:07, 29 July 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete. I agree with Inas, and besides the current format obviously is not working, if resurrected, it would need to be reformulated anyhow - besides the only expedition that really sees any sort of activity is the map making one. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 15:26, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
    • My thought on it is that if we keep it around as inactive, it will better facilitate learning from previous mistakes. If someone goes looking to start a cultural expedition in the future, they can see there once was one and that it had problems, then take steps to avoid them. LtPowers 16:43, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
Keep the article. Merely because the expedition failed to take off does not mean that it meets the criteria for deletion. The page documents an idea that someone had for Wikitravel. To delete it means we forget our history and are at risk of repeating it. It may be appropriate to reformulate the expedition at some time in the future, or it might give someone ideas to plunge forward and make it work. - Huttite 05:54, 3 November 2009 (EST)
If the purpose of keeing this is to show others who may wish to start this expedition again that it is not a good idea, then perhaps it should be transferred to a Failed Expeditions page or something. Keeping it on the expedition page as an expedition means that it is still an operating expedition. Most likely, if someone did try to create a culture page as proposed (ex: Jewish Culture Guide, Japanese Culture Guide, etc.), it would end up a nomination for deletion, because everything listed in the Topic List already has a place in the country/region/city articles. ChubbyWimbus 15:03, 7 November 2009 (EST)
Yes, my suggestion of marking it inactive would presumably include listing it as such on the Expeditions page. LtPowers 16:48, 7 November 2009 (EST)
I went ahead and added a section on the Expedition page for "inactive expeditions". Feel free to make changes as you see fit, but there seems to be a consensus that this expedition is not worth keeping, so perhaps this can be archived? ChubbyWimbus 18:30, 7 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] September 2009

[edit] Lake Bolsena

Per Wikitravel:Bodies of water.

  • Redirect after merging any relevant info with Bolsena or Montefiascone. Texugo 23:53, 26 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Retain as is. Wikitravel:Bodies of water states that Lake Tahoe region is an acceptable article. Apart from size and importance I don't see any difference in approach here.Shep 02:08, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
Lake Tahoe's article is allowed not because it is an article about a lake but because it is set up as a valid region article, fitting nicely into the hierarchy without overlap, etc., and listed in the parent article as a region. This is not the case here, nor with the two below. Texugo 04:22, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Retain all and improve Trasimeno. Neither Bracciano nor Bolsena are articles about lakes but about the areas around them. I don't see any overlap. I think what is relevant is how the area is perceived. In Reno they might say " let's go to Lake Tahoe". In Rome, people say "Let's go to Lahe Bracciano". For me the important thing is that, as individual cities, the towns around the two lakes don't really rate individual articles but as groups they come together nicely. Shep 06:43, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Lake Trasimeno

Per Wikitravel:Bodies of water.

  • Merge and redirect Texugo 04:21, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Lake Bracciano

Per Wikitravel:Bodies of water.

  • Merge and redirect Texugo 04:21, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep for all three lakes discussed above. I have just done a quick check. Lake Louise, Loch Lomond and Lake Garda are all on Wikitravel. I think they, and surely many others, establish a precedent.Shep 08:49, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep all three. None of these articles violate what WT:Bodies of water was designed to combat—they are not encyclopedia articles about lakes themselves, rather they are destination articles, with plenty of overnight options. Bracciano and Bolsena each group the villages ringing a lake into one valid "city" article, akin to how we use a city template for small, inhabited islands. There are thousands of such lake-resort/lakeside community destinations around the world, many of them much smaller than Tahoe, and the majority of them deserving a travel article (like Lake Placid). Trasimeno seems clearly a valid region article, and I'm not sure that it conflicts with the existing hierarchy in any way. And even if it did overlap other regions at the same level of the hierarchy, that is allowed, and is very often a sensible way of organizing travel content. The Chesapeake Bay and Navajo Nation articles clearly overlap all sorts of regions, but it would not be sensible to omit such well-known and coherent travel destinations from Wikitravel out of a desire to keep the geographical hierarchy more simple—a certain amount of complexity is necessary and IMO not a problem. --Peter Talk 14:21, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep - but review the region.

I disagree with much of the reasoning above for keeping the three lake articles.

  1. If the the reason for the bodies of water guideline is that we don't want encyclopaedic articles about bodies of water, it would be extremely simple to just put that in the guideline. There are many people who contributed to the guideline, and trying to assess their reasoning rather than following the text is the wrong way to proceed. The text of the guideline is quite clear, and we should follow the guideline, or fix the guideline.
  2. I also don't agree that because there are other examples of a type of article, that we have established a precedent. There are lots of things that slip through the cracks for want of attention, and other articles which we just keep even though they are against policy (some just because they are good articles and useful to a traveller). I don't think that means that a precedent is stronger than a policy or guideline. We shouldn't let Wikitravel documentation descend into unwritten policies, precedents, and conventions. If we think an article is good enough to establish a precedent, we should change the policy or guideline. To do anything else means that new users who want to follow the guidelines, don't have a clue where to look, and discussions here and elsewhere become excessively complex pointing to other examples, rather than building better guidelines.
  3. I don't think the fact that we allow regions that don't fit into the regional hierarchy, means that we should assume we keep regions that don't. Sure, we allow regions that don't fit into the hierarchy, but there should be a strong presumption against them rising to any more than just disamb articles. We should make new regions that don't form part of the hierarchy redirect/disamb articles, unless there really is additional information significant to the traveller that can't be sensibly placed anywhere other than the region. I see bare and poorly developed regions are a significant problem on WT, and we shouldn't add to it by encouraging other full regional articles. In this particular case, isn't clear whether the articles are going to end up as regional articles, containing towns, or city template based articles in themselves.

That said, this article seems to me to describe a land region named after the lake, rather than the lake itself, and Shep's arguments that it is a common name for the land region seem convincing to me. However, we should be careful that this article doesn't end up just a bare region. If this is a real grouping for a number of smaller towns, perhaps the towns themselves could be redirected to this region, if they all have something in common, and are close together? Or perhaps we could rethink the regional hierarchy in this area? If it is a clear region that the towns belong to, perhaps it should be part of the hierarchy? --inas 20:26, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

Ian, your rebuttal is borderline incomprehensible to me. 1) If the text of the guideline is quite clear, then why were we having this discussion (where I made it clear that I disagree with your reading of the policy, for that matter). Anyway, I've updated the policy in a way that will hopefully make more sense. 2) The examples I cited are hardly articles that slipped through the cracks, they are examples that should make it obvious that we should have destination guides named after lakes, provided (as the policy has always said), they are about the land destination surrounding the lake, rather than the water itself. 3) I have no idea why there should be a strong presumption against region articles just because they are not a part of our hierarchy, which exists for navigational purposes. If a region is a valid travel region, we travelers a disservice to arbitrarily refuse to write travel content about it. Moreover, bare and poorly developed articles are far more likely for regions created out of navigational convenience (like Northern X) than something coherent like a specific resort lake. --Peter Talk 01:27, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
I'm not familiar enough with the Italian lakes in question to be able to comment on the specifics, but I just wanted to chime in my support for Peter's interpretation of the policy. If a lake is a sensible destination/region -- and the pattern of having small communities dotted around a lake surrounded by mountains is quite common -- then there's no reason why the lake should not be a destination/region. Jpatokal 01:30, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
Agree much with Inas. For me the bodies of water policy reads that, if at all possible, we avoid having articles about them, instead preferring to redirect. Yes we know there are exceptions to the bodies of water guideline out there, but they all either have reasons to be exceptions, or they need to be re-examined. The ones already mentioned seem to have valid reasons:
  • Lake Placid is the name of the town, so is actually not an exception at all.
  • Loch Lomond is a hierarchically valid subregion article of Loch Lomond and The Trossachs National Park
  • Lake Louise is very remote with no logical nearest town to direct to, yet is a popular destination with its own places to sleep.
  • Lake Garda is a very large lake which borders three provinces, has attractions around it, but no single community big enough to warrant an article, so no logical place to redirect or disambiguate. This is the treat-all-the-villages-as-one-city example that Peter was looking for.
Since even our geographical hierachy states that exceptions need to be made on a case by case basis let's look at the three at hand:
  • Lake Bolsena - Has two town articles (Montefiascone and Latera which is no further away but not mentioned in the current article). Has one town, Bolsena which could probably do with its own article, having a castle, a cathedral with an interesting story, a theater, and several dozen restaurants and places to sleep. Has one small village worth mentioning in the Get out section of nearby Montefiascone because it has a castle and provides access to a small island. I don't see any information that wouldn't fit nicely into another article, given a disambig page, so I don't see any reason to make this an exception from current body of water policy on the basis of anything other than possibly naming a subregion after this lake. On that point, the question as to whether this article should stand as a valid region article can be answered by asking "Can (and should) the province of Viterbo be subdivided into regions, and would this be a logical component of that subdivision without causing overlap?"
  • Lake Bracciano - Currently has no articles of cities around the lake, but Bracciano is a city of 15,500, well deserving of an article, and we can redirect there. We can put info about enjoying the lake in the new city article, with the much smaller Anguillara Sabazia and Trevignano Romano covered briefly in the Get out section. Again, I see no reason we can't follow the disambig and redirect guideline. If, as above, we decide that subdividing Viterbo is necessary, this could possibly make a logical region with no overlap, though I'm not sure it would contain anything at all besides the aforementioned city article.
  • Lake Trasimeno could very well be a valid region article at some point. However, right now Umbria is not subdivided into regions, so, as in cases where someone creates a lone district article for an otherwise undivided city, I think it needs to be nothing but a disambig page, at least until such time as someone justifies and proposes subdistricting. The current article contains nothing but links to cities anyway, and is essentially already the disambig page I would have it be, except that it has a region template.
To respond to Peter's position about overlap, I agree that a little overlap doesn't hurt sometimes, but our guidelines still encourage us to avoid it when possible. So far the few exceptions we have made have been on a very case-by-case basis, sometimes hotly contested, and only about very large and famous regions which cross multiple macro-regions or countries. Many of the exceptions we have made have resulted in what are basically glorified disambig pages with little extra information. I really think what you are proposing is a slippery slope. If we start making exceptions for any little ol' lake with a couple of villages on it, we undermine both the bodies of water policy and the geographical hierarchy guidelines, and we'll end up with hundreds of new lake articles that overlap, confuse breadcrumb navigation, contain little information that couldn't be included elsewhere, and invite further rule-stretching to include rivers, etc. I get the feeling that you essentially disagree with the bodies of water policy, which is your right and we can of course discuss in the appropriate place and possibly make some changes. But as Inas said, the current policy is pretty clear on avoiding such articles if at all possible. In the above cases, I think it is very easy to avoid. Texugo 00:29, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
Lake Bolsena: I'm least sure of this one, but WP lists seven comuni on the shores of the lake, so it should be a fine region article. Lake Bracciano is small, as are the communities around it, which is why Shep recommended they be covered within one article. I haven't been there, so I'm happy to trust his judgment—and I certainly don't see a compelling reason not to (other than some arbitrary discrimination against articles with the word "lake" in the title?). Lake Trasimeno is a valid region article already, and is not suggested as a region in a subdivision of Umbria, nor should it be, as it would only be listed as an other destination on whatever parent region article. It's clearly a travel destination, and I'm baffled as to how this undermines the geographical hierarchy, confuses breadcrumb information, or otherwise creates any problems of overlap. It's a coherent travel destination, it can sustain a good travel article, and travelers heading there would be well served by an article for the lake region. --Peter Talk 01:27, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

Wow! If I had known that writing for Wikitravel was going to lead to so much debate I'd have read a good book instead. Anyway, I am happy to go along with the consensus, if there is one.Shep 13:43, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

This is a debate we had to have - because the relationship between wikitravel and bodies of water has always been odd, and it is good to see the points of view come out. Please don't feel you have to wait on the sideline for a consensus, a new opinion I'm sure would be valued by all. Hopefully we can get a better guideline as a result. --inas 19:09, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
I wrote the two lake articles thinking that it was a logical way to present the locations in the area. I'm trying to increase coverage of Lazio and as I noted above most places around the lakes do not really merit an article on their own. But I do think Wikitravel should avoid articles such as the present one on Lake Trasimeno, which is not much help to anyone, with no information and listings of cities that have no articles!Shep 01:06, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
This discussion is currently on hold because it sparked a larger discussion here. Please chime in there. Texugo 01:53, 1 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] October 2009

[edit] Peach Bottom

Village under 4500 people. Practically everything mentioned here is in Lancaster, 30 minutes away. It is explicitly stated that there is no place to stay, no place to eat, nothing to see, nothing to do, and there is only one very vague Buy suggestion that is basically universal to the region.

  • Delete - Texugo 21:38, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Merge then delete If there is anything that is not already on the Lancaster page, then I'd suggest merging first. If not, just delete it. It has a nice name, though. ChubbyWimbus 23:50, 5 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Merge & redirect. The name is nice; someone might search for it. Pashley 13:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Merge and redirect. Agree with Pashley Pbsouthwood 15:02, 9 October 2009 (EDT)

The only reason I made this page was because it was a project for Introduction to Tourism and Hospitality Class. We had to chose a place and make a site and I figured no one has ever really heard of Peach Bottom so I figured I would just pick that.—The preceding comment was added by Sarah.Osborne (talk • contribs)

It's not your fault; your teacher should have made sure your assignment was in line with our policies before letting you guys loose here. LtPowers 08:33, 13 November 2009 (EST)
I think we might need a Welcome, students page. Pashley 00:38, 22 November 2009 (EST)
I think that is a very good idea. Clearly Wikitravel is finding itself on more and more student assignment lists. Perhaps we need a Welcome teachers page as well? If nothing else, we should try to make sure that teachers do not irresponsibly set their students loose here without understanding the site themselves. --Burmesedays 01:18, 22 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Pakistani students coming to Finland

Not sure any explanation is required. Speedy I think. Apart from anything else it has been set up as a disambiguation page. --Burmesedays 21:14, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

I do not think it can be speedied. There is at least one valid travel topic that is very close to this. Perhaps "Foreign students in Europe" or "Studying abroad"? I'm not sure of the exact right title or scope. but studying — especially students from "developing" countries going to "developed" countries — is a huge reason for travel. Better to re-name and generalise the article than to scrap it. Some of the advice here, like get a driver's license at home because converting it is cheaper than getting one in the host country, can be useful and is not obvious. Pashley 22:14, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
I'd say it should be changed to Studying in Finland. "Foreign students in Europe" is likely to be too broad a topic, and the current title is too narrow. I certainly don't think there are enough differences to warrant having a separate topic each for Turkish students coming to Finland, Jordanian students coming to Finland, Iranian students coming to..., and every other country... Texugo 22:39, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Yes, but then do we get Studying in Finland, Studying in Germany, Studying in France, Studying in the UK, ... ? Pashley 23:04, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Studying in Finland makes sense. Anything more specific than that then a can of worms is well and truly opened with thousands of permutations. Also, I must say that it had not occurred to me that students formally moving overseas to study would look to Wikitravel for logistical advice; hence my suggestion for speedy. There are surely far more appropriate places? Do we really think that students will use Wikitravel as a source of such advice?--Burmesedays 23:06, 11 October 2009 (EDT)
Business travel and studying overseas (all those Learn sections) are well-established reasons to use Wikitravel. I agree that the original article is kinda ridiculous, but wouldn't oppose a Studying in Finland article. Jpatokal 00:52, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
We might, Pashley, if there is information to impart that would not fit comfortably into a Learn section. LtPowers 09:01, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
Rewrite is needed to fit the Studying in Finland proposal. The current article is not really helpful and more a list of commonplaces. I suggest we redirect first and then see how the article develops. jan 09:15, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
I'd prefer a single Studying abroad article with the suggestion of looking at the "Learn" section of destination articles. We don't have "Working in Finland", Working in Thailand", etc., just Working abroad and the Work sections of destinations. I think the same applies here. Pashley 01:19, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
How about starting things off with a Studying abroad article, and letting it expand from there? The original looks like it may have been written by a Pakistani student now in Finland, who found these things out the hard way and wants to help. This is good in principle, unless Wikitravel is going to limit the scope of its content to exclude this sort of information. If there is not an issue of space, why not provide this service? Those hints look moderately useful to someone with no travelling experience planning to go to a very different climate and culture. The format will probably have to differ from the norm to make sense, but as a possibility, consider a main article Studying abroad, with sub-articles for region specific hints like Studying abroad/Pakistani in Finland if/when there is enough content to justify the split. Pbsouthwood 02:24, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
I like the idea of starting off with a Study Abroad article and splitting as it expands. I think that's much more reasonable than beginning with a random Studying abroad in Finland article that will be likely to fall into obscurity, since there really isn't any place right now to link to it. It would just be a floater. Having an established Study Abroad page would provide a base for creating more specific articles relating to study abroad. If the information here is decent information, perhaps it could be moved to the the Talk Page of the study abroad article once it is created. That way we wouldn't lose content. ChubbyWimbus 02:58, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Only problem is, I'm not sure there's all that much to say about studying abroad in general? The Pakistani guy studying in Finland is going to be facing a very different set of hurdles from the Finnish guy studying in Japan... Jpatokal 06:24, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Saratoga County

Looking at the New York regional structure, a county article is not really appropriate. There is already a reasonably developed Saratoga Springs article so if anything, maybe a redirect there? --Burmesedays 13:08, 17 October 2009 (EDT)

Keep. The regions of New York are not, themselves, well-divided into subregions. Counties seem to be the default option until someone comes up with a better organization. LtPowers 13:59, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Redirect to Hudson Valley. It's a problematic county, as it is split across two parent regions. But more importantly it's not yet necessary, nothing links there, nor does it have any content. --Peter Talk 15:11, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
    • As you say, it's split across two parent regions, so why redirect to one? LtPowers 16:21, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
There's almost nothing northwest of the park border (to this we owe the beautiful views from Saratoga Springs!). I'm pretty sure miniscule Corinth is all there is—everything else is on the Hudson Valley side. --Peter Talk 17:33, 17 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep and disambiguate or redirect - I am not sure why there is such an aversion to creating US counties but to me it would seem reasonable to have county pages, simply because Wikipedia has them and there is a risk that someone will link to Wikitravel and expect to find a county organised the same way. It could be a disambiguation page at this stage that points to all the places you want to redirect it to. - Huttite 06:22, 3 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Kattoor kerala

No useful info, wrong title format, wrong capitalisation. We might eventually want an article for Kattoor, which WP lists [1]. Pashley 00:40, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

  • I think the solution is obvious. Move to Kattoor, add an outline template, wikilink to the Wikipedia article and keep it. - Huttite 06:28, 3 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Tollesbury

Seems like a load of bull to me --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 11:38, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

  • a point or two for humour (vibrant night life in Tollesbury is an amusing concept). --Burmesedays 11:48, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Blank and Outline. LtPowers 17:33, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep and add a destination template. It is probably worth a mention as a destination in Essex, so that it is no longer an orphan page. Then again the vibrant nightlife reminds me of Peter Sellers Belham with its beautigul flashing lights - green - orange - red and back to green again! - Huttite 06:44, 3 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] False Bay

Body of water, not a destination. One does not go to "False Bay" as such, one goes to the destinations on its coast specified by name. Most are part of Cape Town, but some are not, making a redirect inappropriate.

Scratch that, should have looked at it first. It's a valid region article, and is about the cities in the bay area, not the water itself. --Peter Talk 02:29, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Atlantic Seaboard

Not a useful name. So many places have an Atlantic seaboard that disambiguation is not an option

  • Merge and delete Pbsouthwood 02:22, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Keep — ditto what I said above. If there is a naming conflict with other articles, then it can be disambiguated. Or if you have a better name in mind, we can use that. But otherwise this seems a perfectly valid region article and subdivision of Cape Peninsula. --Peter Talk 02:31, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
So, is this one just going to have links to countries in South America, North America, Africa, and Europe that touch the Atlantic Ocean? ChubbyWimbus 02:37, 20 October 2009 (EDT)
There's no need to disambiguate yet, as there is only one article. And no, that would be a pointless disambig—it would only need to disambiguate region articles that actually bear that name. Mid-Atlantic is a similar case. --Peter Talk 02:57, 20 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Category:위키트래벌

Now that ko: has been launched, it's time to delete the articles in Category:위키트래벌. Deletions can be done speedily after it's confirmed that they've been transwikied (= check if English original has a link to ko and whether the article is there). Jpatokal 11:08, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

  • Isn't this a bit premature? It might be better to explain what to do about these article as part of the expedition, rather than simply VfD the the whole category here. Perhaps VfD later once we are certain the articles have all been created in ko:. - Huttite 06:50, 3 November 2009 (EST)
  • Delete All Korean, it's bogus translated and unusable. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 14:49, 8 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Phrasebook International

Getting rid of this has been discussed before; see its discussion page and User_talk:DenisYurkin#Some_questions. I thought it time to broaden the discussion.

It seems to me the basic premise that there's some sort of "international language" (words or phrases likely to be understood more-or-less anywhere) to be documented is just wrong. Given that, I do not think the article is salvageable, or at least not under this title. On the other hand, could we move it to Tips for coping with language problems or some such? Certainly this is a problem many travelers face; that's a valid travel topic and parts of this article might be a good start. Pashley 08:36, 25 October 2009 (EDT)

What sections/aspects could an article like Tips for coping with language problems include? --DenisYurkin 05:29, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
I mean that if there's any idea of what this article better become a part of, why vfding it at all--why not start with an outline of such a more-general article? I absolutely admit that it's impossible to have a complete phrasebook (complete in the sense we have other phrasebooks here)--and this article was never considered for that goal--. Yes, it's a helper in communicating when you can't find a common language--so if it's only a matter of renaming, let's just do it. --DenisYurkin 16:30, 27 October 2009 (EDT)
I like this idea better. An international phrasebook is too limiting, I think, because there is no such thing as an international language (although people like to say that English is the international language). Tips for getting through language issues seems easier to add to, as well as to forgive things that apply to many places but not everywhere. ChubbyWimbus 02:16, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Delete though Jani's idea of a sign language phrasebooks seems good if someone can come up with an idea on how to make it work, I learned booking whole railway tickets in China (before mass tourism arrived) using nothing but sign language and a LP guide (city names in Chinese) - See the talk page —The preceding comment was added by Sertmann (talk • contribs) .

  • Keep. I think it's useful to have a list of English words that are likely to be widely understood. LtPowers 14:33, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] November 2009

[edit] Penrioch

  • Delete. I'm doing some work to try and bring Arran into shape, and came across this article. This is a tiny hamlet, with no accomodation, shops, atttractions or anything else except some lovely scenery. I think the "Motorcycle Musem" mentioned is someone's wee joke: The 'motorcycle museum', with only one motorcycle, which is British, on display. You look at it through the window as you stand outside. Free. I'm not even sure that Pirnmill really needs a page of its own either. Tarr3n 06:00, 2 November 2009 (EST)
  • Delete. Does not meet the bar for a Wikitravel article. Like the joke about the motorbike museum :). Good work on Isle of Arran by the way. --Burmesedays 06:44, 2 November 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect to Arran? Pashley 07:41, 2 November 2009 (EST)
Unlikely search term, but I guess a redirect wouldn't do any harm. Now you mention it, it's probably worth setting up redirect pages for the larger villages on Arran, which users might search for. Tarr3n 09:28, 2 November 2009 (EST)
  • Always Redirect valid place names. Always. LtPowers 10:04, 2 November 2009 (EST)
  • Weak Keep or Redirect. No harm in having a article saying there is little to see or do there. Probably more useful to a potential traveller than a redirect to another destination article that contains no information on the destination. Of course if there was destination information in the target of the redirect, then definitely redirect to where the info is. --inas 17:37, 2 November 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect - No place to sleep but might be a search term. Texugo 19:19, 2 November 2009 (EST)
  • If the redirected city contains information about Penrioch, then redirect. If it does not, then we are not doing anyone a favor by redirecting them to a city where the destination they seek is not mentioned. ChubbyWimbus 00:38, 3 November 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect - It is a place that might be an attraction in the regional destination article, so the information about the scenery can be mentioned under See on the regional destination article page that is the redirection target. - Huttite 06:12, 3 November 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect per Wikitravel:Deletion_policy#Deleting_vs._redirecting. --Peter Talk 16:36, 7 November 2009 (EST)
  • I have redirected to Pirnmill, which already mentioned Penrioch. —The preceding comment was added by 82.41.225.31 (talk • contribs) Oops. Actually it was me, forgetting to sign. Tarr3n 17:01, 11 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] News articles and category in Korean

These are useless for en: since they are written in Korean. And they are also useless for ko: since ko: has no travel news section now. That language version is still translating policies and guidelines.

  • Delete. -- Tatata7 04:50, 4 November 2009 (EST)
  • Ask a Korean to delete. Only they can be sure if this is actually useful. They may be able to move it somewhere useful. Or they may be able to explain it, ask for a short-term exception that allows this oddity on English WT. I'd be inclined to say no since other versions have been started without visible problems on en:, but there is a precedent (see above) so perhaps we should just live with it for a while. Pashley 06:21, 4 November 2009 (EST)
Can't we just move the info to ko, and it can be sorted there? --inas 14:16, 4 November 2009 (EST)
  • Keep until the Korean language version has the equivalent articles, then ask someone on Wikitravel/ko: who is a go-between to nominate articles here. I would rather these articles hang around here until we are certain they have been translated and created correctly on ko:. And yes there are precedents for doing this. A few years ago, I recall one of the other language versions was set up on Wikitravel/en: until they could get the language version setup file translated. Huttite 08:45, 6 November 2009 (EST)
  • Delete Everything Korean, it's completely bogus and unusable for the guys over there, as it's all very poorly translated by a robot thanks to our "dear" mkPaolo. They're not going to use it, and we have even less reason too. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 14:45, 8 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Takane

It looks like someone attempted to make a regional article out of a city. This is listed as a city in Hokuto when it is actually part of Hokuto City. There is a Takane here, but there is also one in Niigata, and it's part of at least 2 other place names from what I found. I don't know whether it would be a useful redirect or just better off deleted. ChubbyWimbus 04:15, 8 November 2009 (EST)

Not really sure what to do here. Takane was merged into Hokuto in 2004, and while I'm unfamiliar with the area, quite often the old towns are actually much more coherent destinations than these sprawling administrative "cities" like 600 km2 Hokuto.
There's been a whole bunch of these lately (see also Kishine, Hamadayama, etc), it appears we've got another English class in Japan on our hands... Jpatokal 11:06, 8 November 2009 (EST)
Yeah, I don't know this area either. From researching it, the city seems to encompass most (all?) of the Kiyosato Plateau, which was also created by the same user. Kiyosato returns a lot more travel information about this area, such as: [3], [4], [5], etc. Maybe redirecting Hokuto to the Kiyosato Plateau would be better. As for Takane... I still don't know about redirect or deletion. It seems to be as obscure as the one in Niigata, and disambiguation sounds pointless. ChubbyWimbus 13:35, 8 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Ariel Lickton's images

All of these have duplicates currently on Shared. Admittedly, they're up for deletion there, too, but even if they're kept on Shared, we don't need the duplicates here. See also #Image:Sages.jpg LtPowers 20:22, 8 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Image:Sages.jpg

This one was uploaded to shared as shared:Image:Community flair.jpg by shared:user:Ariel (who appears to be the same as en:User:Ariel Lickton, see also #Ariel Lickton's images) but here on :en it was uploaded by User:WikiTravel. Hmm! Anyway, since it's duplicated on Shared, we don't need it here. See also #Monticello Railway duplicates LtPowers 20:22, 8 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Monticello Railway duplicates

These are all smaller-size duplicates of Image:Monticello Railway.jpg and thus unneeded. Image:Monticello Picture.jpg is the one in use, but I see no compelling reason not to switch it out for the larger image. These were uploaded here by User:WikiTravel, but a duplicate that exists on shared (shared:Image:Monticello 2.jpg) was uploaded by shared:User:Ariel. See also #Image:Sages.jpg. LtPowers 20:22, 8 November 2009 (EST)

  • Delete. I get the feeling we should just wait for the assignment due date, and then clean up Monticello --inas 22:24, 8 November 2009 (EST)
Agreed. Since they still seem to be at it, I let these slide for today's cleanup pass.

[edit] Monticello map

All three are copyvios from [6]. More uploads from User:WikiTravel. LtPowers 20:24, 8 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Image:Monticello Railway.jpg

Another one by user User:Ariel Lickton‎, no licensing information, and no responses of any sort on talk page. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 10:11, 17 November 2009 (EST)

Technically User:WikiTravel, but appears to be the same person based on uploads. If we delete this one, though, we should delete all of her images; this one is no more or less suspicious than any of the others. Lack of licensing information is hardly a barrier; as Jani has pointed out several times, all image uploads are licensed CC by-sa 1.0 by default. (I'm not a fan of this policy, mind you, but it seems to be established convention.) LtPowers 14:01, 17 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Image:Mapofghent.jpg

Looks like a probably copyvio to me. LtPowers 20:30, 8 November 2009 (EST)

  • Delete - It's far too small to be legible anyway. Texugo 22:04, 8 November 2009 (EST)
On shared, can't take any action here. - Dguillaime 00:49, 1 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Image:Glencairnexteriorsmall.jpg

Another one from Huntingdon Valley. I guess there is a WT school project in the Philadelphia area at the moment? The image is from glencairn.org. The page seems to have been taken down but you can see the identical thumbnail in a Google image search here. --Burmesedays 11:02, 13 November 2009 (EST)

Also on shared. - Dguillaime 00:49, 1 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Transfagarasan

It's just a road. I'm not sure if it's important enough to have its own article, though. ChubbyWimbus 02:16, 23 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] Kameo

  • Delete - According to Google, this appears to be the name of a Japanese company, not a place. - Huttite 03:33, 24 November 2009 (EST)
There is now some content in the article. As it is only 15 mins from Hakodate airport though, my guess is it should be covered in that article? I have found a ref to Kameo School in Hakodate and this implies Kameo is a district of Hakodate I think? --Burmesedays 10:32, 25 November 2009 (EST)
and a map here. --Burmesedays 10:36, 25 November 2009 (EST)

Let's keep it... I appreciate the need for oversight and realize that this action had good intentions, but obviously this deletion recommendation has jumped the gun. I worry that this action and others on the Wiki Travel Japan section recently (such as the editing of Sugamo and Komagome) are being influenced by a narrow perspective. Are we trying to make Wiki Travel Japan into a Lonely Planet type guide book? At this point in our project, I would prefer that we give more leeway to locals trying to introduce their cities... That means leeway with language use (correct errors but respect phrasing - No need to describe the price of Soba in a sarcastic way - although I did think it was funny) and leeway with the way things are categorized (there's no need to lump Sugamo into Toshima Ward, is there?). In short, let's err on the side of caution when we see an entry by a non-native speaker. This will allow more and more Japanese to take part in Wiki Travel which seems necessary, especially at this point in its development. By black turtleneck

This is a town of Hokkaido, so this isn't a company. By Mi

I can support keeping this while people add the info, but there are way too many Japanese destinations being created for places that don't need articles. I think this, as well as others, need to be merged. How long do we wait though? ChubbyWimbus 20:43, 9 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Fueda park

An attraction, not a destination.

  • Merge with Kamakura and Delete - Texugo 00:44, 26 November 2009 (EST)
  • Merge, and possibly redirect, as this would stop a future creation of the same attraction article. Peter (Southwood) Talk 06:09, 26 November 2009 (EST)
  • Merge and redirect. The capitalisation is wrong though so I guess a redirect should be there for Fueda Park as well. --Burmesedays 06:21, 26 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] A bunch of JR station/ward articles

Perhaps a university class is creating these articles the last few days, I'm not sure. Most should probably be merged somewhere and deleted or redirected, though in some cases it is not clear where, unless someone wants to take the time to nicely districtify Yokohama.

  1. Keio horinouchi - a station in Hachioji
  2. Center-minami - a station in Tzuzuki ward, Yokohama.
  3. Mizonokuchi - a station in Kawasaki, Kanagawa prefecture.
  4. Kouhokuku, better written Kouhoku Ward - a ward of Yokohama.
  5. Kikuna - a station in Kouhoku Ward (above), Yokohama.
  6. Hiyoshi - another station in Kouhoku Ward, Yokohama.
  7. Kounandai - a station in Kounan Ward, Yokohama
  8. Kamoi - a station in Midori Ward, Yokohama
  9. Sakuragicho - a station in Naka Ward, Yokohama.

There may be others I've missed, and there may be others created soon, if my hunch is correct. Texugo 00:44, 26 November 2009 (EST)

Districtifying the second-largest city in Japan might be too much to tackle at once. However, all of those station names seem to be unique, so redirecting all of them to Yokohama shouldn't cause confusion for other destinations. - Dguillaime 16:01, 27 November 2009 (EST)
I was wondering why the number of orphan pages dropped suddenly, then I find them listed here! I would suggest that each of the articles be tagged with a Merge notice pointing to Yokohama and the list of articles to be merged then merging and districtifying be discussed on the Yokohama talk page. When districtification of Yokohama reaches a point where merging and redirecting these articles makes sense then redirect the articles to the appropriate districts. - Huttite 05:30, 30 November 2009 (EST)
I would probably delete at least Hiyoshi. Someone looking up Hiyoshi will most likely want to find Hiyoshi Taisha in Otsu rather than Yokohama. I'm not really a fan of creating redirects for every station name in Japan. It just seems like a rather fruitless task. For ward names and districts within cities (like Kouhokuku), I honestly think it's better just to delete them, with some exceptions (like Shibuya, Harajuku, etc.). This one appears to be unique, but so many of them are generic and found in more than one location in Japan. ChubbyWimbus 00:58, 1 December 2009 (EST)
Speaking of Kouhokuku, the only thing unique about this name is that the creator chose this particular way of writing it. It is better written Kōhoku-ku, and when speaking about it people often drop the -ku part. In addition, I can guarantee there are dozens of places named Kōhoku, including　a community in eastern Osaka-fu, an area in northern Tokyo, and Kohoku, Saga-ken. Given that, I think a redirect would be pretty useless. Texugo 22:51, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Hello Texugo & other editors. Thank you for starting this discussion. I am part of the small effort to introduce more local places by locals on this nice web resource. I / we may need to apologize on one hand for some obvious errors. On the other hand(as I wrote above for Kameo), while I appreciate the need for oversight and realize that the suggestions have good intentions (such as making the site easier to use and navigate) and may adhere to larger Wiki standards that were not followed, I worry that the locals' efforts and then editing actions on the Wiki Travel Japan section recently (such as the editing of Sugamo and Komagome) may not be in the best interest of the larger Wiki Travel development. Are we trying to make Wiki Travel Japan into a Lonely Planet type guide book? I hope we can do better than Lonely Planet, etc. and introduce more and more local places... properly. To do this, the students / volunteers certainly need help, but at this point in this Wiki Travel project, I would prefer that we give more leeway to locals trying to introduce their cities... That means leeway with language use (correct errors but respect phrasing - No need to edit and then describe the price of Soba in a sarcastic way - although I did think it was funny) and leeway with the way things are categorized (there's no need to lump Sugamo into Toshima Ward, is there?). In short, let's err on the side of caution when we see an entry by a non-native speaker here. This will allow more and more Japanese to take part in Wiki Travel which seems necessary, especially at this point in its development. Sorry for the long memo & thanks for reading & considering. Looking forward to hearing back. By black turtleneck

We welcome contributions from all users, but the issue with these are that they are not cities: they are stations and parts of cities that already exist. Generally, wards do not get articles. If the district or ward is in Yokohama (for example), then you can add the information about that district or ward to the Yokohama page. There is no need to create a page for Kikuna, Sakuragicho, etc. We only split articles when they become too large and after discussion has taken place.
There is no limit on what local places can be added, so the locals of these places are welcome to continue adding content. We certainly do hope to provide much more information than Lonely Planet! The information simply needs to be put in the correct place. Most (or even all) of the locations they are adding already have city articles. If you know these locals, it would be greatly appreciated if you could tell them to add their content to the city article rather than creating new articles. It's good to know what is going on. Your response is appreciated! ChubbyWimbus 22:59, 2 December 2009 (EST)

Hello ChubbyWimbus. Thanks for the reply. I think I understand your point about local places. There should be a reasonable limit, I agree, but I wonder how that applies to the Tokyo Metro Area? I think this might be a special case warranting consideration, especially given the nature of the way Tokyo and other cities have developed as "station/cities." Are you saying that Wikitravel Japan is a collection of pages about "Cities" - is it referring to 市 Shi - as an official determination, which requires a certain population and designation? I'm not sure if I am entitled to make this counter-point being a very new user without any history or recognition by the Wiki Organization, but here are a few things on my mind... When a visitor (or a resident wants to use Wiki Travel, some may start with a large city and look around in there, but I have a feeling many others would enter the name of a specific station or town. If Wiki redirects them to a larger city, the feeling would be one of disappointment in that case, wouldn't it? Or maybe more satisfaction if the city is actually covered in Wiki. Thus, I do feel that many more areas should be given their own page and ask that Wiki loosen the devoted page requirement. Obvious examples are Kourakuen or Sugamo in Tokyo from the perspective of a "guidebook." Aside from those major areas, I see some value in devoted pages for many other areas as well. We know that "cities" arise around stations. Examples abound in Tokyo (Machida, Shin-Yokohama, Shimokita, Kanazawa-Hakkei, Kichijoji, Sangenjyaya, Futakotamagawa...) In one of the largest metro areas in the world (the largest?), these "station/cities" seem to merit their own page. When we get down to the small station level, I can understand the discussion on merging. One deleted was Hamadayama, for example. Even though this does not have a "city" designation and is, as we know, not a major train station, I wonder if Hamadayama's sheer population and number of restaurants, parks, temples, etc. would merit its own page. More to the point, I ask this: if we can't search for these "cities" (towns? urban areas? stations?) on Wiki Trvel, then where can we search for them? As far as Tokyo Metro area goes this seems the obvious route to making Wiki Travel a tool that surpasses Lonely Planet and can position Wiki as the go-to tool for English info on Japan. Thanks again for our talk as we collaborate. BT

I would begin by checking the Tokyo article to see if the area you are adding information about is already covered in one of the district articles. I was not part of the Tokyo districting discussions, but I think every area is covered somewhere. Once you find where it belongs, then add the information to that district.
If you know the area and feel that there is a need to separate sections, there are ways to do that without creating new pages. See Takahashi: The Fukiya area is separated from the rest of the content, yet it is still in the Takahashi article. I did this because it is often visited as a separate destination and there is enough distance between the inner city and Fukiya to warrant giving it a subheading. If so much information was added to Takahashi that the article became too large, then I would consider creating districts, and Fukiya would get an article. I don't think that will happen in this case.
I think that's the best way to show districts without dividing the article into districts. If the article grows, having these subsections will make it easier to divide it, but if it does not become large enough, they still serve a useful purpose for travellers. Other examples of these types of city articles in Japan include Kurashiki, Hiroshima, Okayama, Shimonoseki. All of these cities only have one article but important districts are identified. Every city/area is different, but the process is basically the same. If you think that Hamadayama should be identified, perhaps this is the best way to do it. The article that it is part of currently (Tokyo/Suginami) does not have many attractions listed, so things to do, see, eat, etc. from the Hamadayama area would be good to add to the article, if you know the area. ChubbyWimbus 02:29, 3 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Thirdie

  • Speedy . User advertising his social networking site. --Burmesedays 23:05, 26 November 2009 (EST)
I moved the content into his userspace. --inas 23:13, 26 November 2009 (EST)
Cool. Contemporaneous with the vfd I think :) Here's one to ponder though (and should probably be discussed elsewhwere): we are having these fairly fundamental discussions about business-driven listings and yet a user can fill his talk page with advertising and back-links with no relevance whatsoever to any travel matters :/ . --Burmesedays 23:19, 26 November 2009 (EST)
I suppose you could have guessed that I disagree with people being able to do that as well, but I think the integrity of the main namespace is more of a concern. I'm sure someone who recollects such things can give us a pointer to the relevant discussion. --inas 23:37, 26 November 2009 (EST)
After a lot of searching..... here is a discussion on that very subject: Wikitravel_talk:User_page_help. And I think the page in question could have been deleted as per Wikitravel:Deletion_policy#Speedy_deletion. Bizarrely (!), I see that Google indexes WT user pages and user talk pages. Therein lies the reason why any savvy person wants a WT user page with a link-back. Search Engine bots should be prevented from indexing and crawling user pages.... another IB tech issue. --Burmesedays 10:15, 29 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] McYörüks

[edit] Image:IMG 1228.JPG‎

Recognisable person in photo, uploaded as advertisement. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 16:09, 27 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] The River Tuul Nomad's Sacred Valley

The whole page is a copyvio and marked as such and it could well be treated as an attraction with a camp, rather than a destination. As it is only 25 miles from Ulaan Baatar I suggest emptying the page, redirecting to Ulaan Baatar and putting a description of the attraction in that article. The copyvio text also made it to the Mongolia page and I have deleted it there. --Burmesedays 04:54, 29 November 2009 (EST)

On closer inspection, the useful information is already in Ulaanbaatar. So emptied and redirected. -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 04:06, 5 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Image:Sunset_dinner_cruises_by cinnamon_cruises.jpg

Recognisable people, image uploaded as an advertisement to Hoi An. --Burmesedays 06:57, 29 November 2009 (EST)

  • Delete--Burmesedays 06:57, 29 November 2009 (EST)
  • Delete.

[edit] Mémorial Charles de Gaulle

Not an article but an attraction. The whole page is also a copyvio and I have marked it as such.--Burmesedays 06:49, 30 November 2009 (EST)

  • Therefore similar content on the contributor's user page must be a copyvio too? The page probably should move/redirect to the location of the memorial, but I cannot tell from the text where in France(?) the memorial is as the location/address is not obvious. - Huttite 07:12, 30 November 2009 (EST)
It's in Colombey-les-deux-églises[7] in the Champagne-Ardenne region. The address is 'Route du Mémorial'. It's a very small town apparently (pop. 650), maybe it should be listed in the Get out section of Chaumont, the nearest town of any size. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 07:45, 30 November 2009 (EST)
redirect to Chaumont. Leave the user a note asking about the apparent copyvio on the user page. He or she has username "Memorialcharlesdegaulle", so may be authorised to use the text. Pashley 01:40, 10 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Bangkok/Airport

Not an article, but an airport, which even redirects to the wrong page (as it redirects to Bangkok/Phahonyothin, the location of the old airport Don Muang. The new airport Suvarnabhumi is officially in Samut Prakan, but is covered in the Bangkok main article). I don't think airports deserve their own articles, with the exception of O'Hare International Airport ? Globe-trotter 12:25, 30 November 2009 (EST)

[edit] December 2009

[edit] Bannana

nonsence --Rein N. 08:35, 1 December 2009 (EST)

  • Speedy. First admin to see it will delete I am sure. --Burmesedays 09:14, 1 December 2009 (EST)
Or redirect to Banana Island? --Stefan (sertmann) talk 09:30, 1 December 2009 (EST)
Or indeed the city in Dem Rep of Congo, it is redlinked here. :) --Burmesedays 09:34, 1 December 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect to Banana, perhaps - this is starting to sound like a disambiguation page. There is also a Banana territory mentioned in Caribbean Costa Rica, though the article hasn't been created ... yet. I don't think deleting it is a solution, as Bannana is a mispelling of Banana that appears in several (I count 4) Wikitravel articles! - Huttite 05:40, 2 December 2009 (EST)
  • Delete. No question. Pashley 11:45, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • Delete. If no one has yet thought to create the page that we could consider redirecting it to, then any redirection is useless. --inas 17:57, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • The current page makes WT look silly. The Bannana page was clearly set up as a joke and here we are spending time and effort trying to justify it. --Burmesedays 21:30, 8 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Argkuda

No mention of a place on Wikipedia, and a quick google didn't turn up anything either. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 09:29, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Delete I kind of like the name though.  :) ChubbyWimbus 20:58, 1 December 2009 (EST)
Delete - top result on a Gooogle search is Wikitravel! Tarr3n 09:14, 2 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Image:Royston-map.jpg

  • Delete. Photo of map that is most likely copyright. It is highly unlikely the author obtained permission to re-publish. --inas 23:35, 1 December 2009 (EST)
By placing the map on display in a public place is the copyright owner giving an implicit permission for it to be photographed? Is the photo then a derivative work of the map, in its stand, on the street, with sunlight and shadows on the map and a street scene background. In that case isn't this image an artistic work that could rely on the fair use principle in copyright law to claim a separate copyright by the photographer? That said, I am aware of sculpture artists who had copies of their sculpture photographed and screen printed on tee-shirts that were witdrawn from sale because of the artists objected for copyright reason. My concern is that if we delete this image then it follows that all those other images of signs and maps in public places should probably also be deleted. If it was only a photo of the map, not of the map on the street then I would have said Delete - as it is I am not so sure. - Huttite 06:11, 2 December 2009 (EST)
Hmmmm. It is always nice to keep images rather than delete them, and I appreciate we don't want to go down a slippery slope towards deleting more than we have to.
However, I think this is clearly a copyvio. Under UK law a photograph of a map in a public place is a copyvio, so too in the US. Wikimedia commons has a good coverage of the issues involved. See [8].
I don't think this would qualify as fair use in the US, but even if it did, we don't permit images under a idea of fair use here.
I can't see any implied consent. I think if I made copies of the map by photographing this and started selling them on the high street, the council would probably kick up a fuss. And this is just what I could do under the CC-BY-SA licence the image is under.
In fact most map producers like this in the UK would normally be using Ordinance Survey data under a licence, and they would never give permission for it to be freely reproduced. It may not fall within the council's power to even give consent to copy it.
If we want to maintain a clean site, with no copyright violations, then we have to delete these things and work around the consequences. --inas 21:23, 2 December 2009 (EST)
  • Delete. I agree with inas's interpretation of the legal situation (assuming Commons has it right). But moreover, I can't imagine how this image is useful to us anyway, even if it was legal. The text on the map is too small to read, making the map pretty useless. LtPowers 11:35, 3 December 2009 (EST)
Ok - Delete - You have removed my uncertainty by explaining your thinking and providing supporting information and factors I had not considered. However, does this set a precedent for photographs of other sorts of signs? - Huttite 04:10, 4 December 2009 (EST)
I would say not, as that precedent already exists. Of course, different countries have different rules. LtPowers 09:45, 4 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Justin bieber

  • Speedy Deletion - Person's name - Huttite 06:23, 2 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] London/Oxford_Street

It's a road running through multiple districts, making a redirect not useful. Streets do not get their own articles right? Globe-trotter 20:13, 2 December 2009 (EST)

But the street name does defines a district, so I would think it is a common search term for shopping strip part of Oxford Street. A redirect to London/West End might set people on the right track? --inas 20:49, 2 December 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect to London/West End London/Mayfair-Marylebone. Oxford Street is unquestionably a search term that will be used and much of it is in this district.--Burmesedays 21:09, 2 December 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect Pashley 11:48, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect to London. London/West End will not be part of the new districts scheme. --Peter Talk 21:19, 3 December 2009 (EST)
  • If it is a likely search term, then wouldn't it be better to create a redirect for Oxford Street or London Oxford Street/Oxford Street London and then delete this? I don't know anyone who searches using the "/". If this is another one of those instances where it is not deleted in order to preserve credit then I suppose it can be redirected. ChubbyWimbus 00:37, 4 December 2009 (EST)
A search for Oxford Street in our box will still return London/Oxford Street. More importantly, the policy (Wikitravel:Deletion_policy#Deleting_vs._redirecting) is to redirect (and that policy exists largely to save us time). --Peter Talk 03:14, 4 December 2009 (EST)
And certainly a more likely search term for the district than the district name itself. --inas 17:45, 6 December 2009 (EST)

What about London/Bond Street? That seems to have been deleted, but I'd say it should also be a redirect since it is a likely search term. I don't know london well enough to be sure where to redirect it. Pashley 20:54, 8 December 2009 (EST)

Probably a valid re-direct I agree. It should re-direct to London/Mayfair-Marylebone. --Burmesedays 21:25, 8 December 2009 (EST)
Did that. Pashley 01:30, 10 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Www.niseko-gourmet.com

  • Speedy deleted - Advertising spam. - Huttite 06:08, 4 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Niseko gourmet

Not an article but a catering company.--Burmesedays 06:07, 4 December 2009 (EST)

  • Speedy deleted as listed. - Advertising spam that was same as Www.niseko-gourmet.com. - Huttite 06:15, 4 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Nottinghaming

Set up as a re-direct to London. No such place exists. --Burmesedays 00:56, 5 December 2009 (EST)

  • Delete --Burmesedays 00:56, 5 December 2009 (EST)
  • Delete -- for reasons above -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 03:26, 5 December 2009 (EST)
  • Delete doesn't exist. jan 03:41, 5 December 2009 (EST)
  • Delete. Globe-trotter 14:12, 6 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Trail guide

Just a list. Where is this article going? There are too many trails in the world. Looks like it will be a long list. ChubbyWimbus 02:47, 7 December 2009 (EST)

I'm not sure a page listing a lot of trails all over the place is useful, but it brings up a question: These trail articles that are linked here, are they essentially itinerary articles? or something else? An itinerary serves as a way to fit in seeing certain things in a certain order and time frame and leaves the descriptions to other articles, typically. An article for a hiking trails essentially exists to give distances and describe things along a set trail. I don't know if trails make good itinerary articles, but I do kind of like the idea of trail articles, since they give a chance to give more detail than a general national park article would.Texugo 09:35, 7 December 2009 (EST)
I wouldnt think of them as Itineraries in the usual sense, and they are a bit sparse on information at present, but they could become something useful if there is enough input. -- Peter (Southwood) Talk 13:47, 8 December 2009 (EST)
  • Delete. Trail articles are good, and welcome. They should be linked to the relevant articles and locations for the traveller to find. Nobody would start looking for a trail at the global level. If this is an administrative list that someone wants to maintain, then it should at least move out of the main namespace. --inas 17:04, 8 December 2009 (EST)
Tramping in New Zealand actually has useful information about long distance walks in New Zealand. It isn't just an index, but an introduction to the topic.
Long_distance_walking_in_Europe limits itself to a handful of well defined walks, where as this list is somewhat arbitrary. The trails are fine, but best linked from the regions and destinations where they are relevant. We should demonstrate a very clear traveller benefit before allowing an article that is just a list.
If we really really decide that an index of these things is necessary - surely a Category is a better way to accomplish it than a manually updated index? --inas 00:46, 9 December 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect to List of itineraries, move the items there, and slap itinerary tags on them. A trail article would seem to be as clear an itinerary article as we could possibly have. --Peter Talk 01:11, 9 December 2009 (EST)
A fine solution, Peter. Why didn't I think of that? Pashley 01:26, 10 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Llullaillaco

Had no real content --Rein N. 08:45, 11 December 2009 (EST)

  • Speedy deletion. Done by myself jan 09:01, 11 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Stockholm short

  • Delete or Move to talk pages. - Appears to be a clone of Stockholm. I would have speedily deleted it but for the discussion about districts. Suggest it could be used as a planning tool. - Huttite 15:18, 11 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Dallam County

This doesn't merit an article
This doesn't merit an article

Texas has well over 300 counties, many of them with only a couple of tiny towns, and so counties are not an organizational structure that we use for the state. This county article, in particular, is unlikely to ever contain anything more than Dalhart, and there really isn't anything else to mention there.

  • Redirect to High Plains. Texugo 08:28, 12 December 2009 (EST)
  • Keep as the destination can be a regional article for Dalhart. If it is only going to contain Dalhart, the redirect it there, not to High Plains. Also, the discussion on whether we should have US counties as articles, is only a discussion, it does not appear to have been turned into policy. - Huttite 18:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)
  • 'Redirect to High Plains. No point at all having a region article with one city in it and disrupting what looks like a sensible existing regional structure for this state. --Burmesedays 21:29, 12 December 2009 (EST)
  • Redirect. Actually, I redirected it before I saw this discussion. I referenced that discussion, since the consensus resulting (as I understand it) is practical: when U.S. counties make for sensible regions (like the ones with strong individual identities in the very dense population center of Capital Region (Maryland)), then it's fine to give them their own articles. When it's some tiny western county, arbitrarily drawn as a square, denoting a section of flat nothingness with a population of 6,000 (basically all of whom live in the tiny town of Dalhart), then it's not. Of the two other towns added to that article, one is a ghost town, and the other has a whopping 500 residents—neither pass the wiaa criteria. I think the standard practice is to redirect unneeded/non-article subregions to the parent region, but I'm fine with redirecting to Dalhart instead, if people think it worthwhile. --Peter Talk 21:44, 12 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Hongdae

Not an article but a hostel listing. --Burmesedays 01:38, 13 December 2009 (EST)

  • Move anything worth keeping to the relevant article and Delete. --Burmesedays 01:40, 13 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Parks

Looking at the article's talk page, it is a few years overdue for a deletion. ChubbyWimbus 17:50, 13 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Amusement

The very similar topic Amusements was deleted a couple months ago, and this one seems the same. The talk page proposes where this article could go, but do we really want it? ChubbyWimbus 17:50, 13 December 2009 (EST)

[edit] Image:200604240020.jpg

Picture of a hotel, uploaded the wrong place. --Stefan (sertmann) talk 14:29, 14 December 2009 (EST)

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