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Wikitravel:Travellers' pub

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The Travellers' pub is the place to ask questions when you're confused, lost, afraid, tired, annoyed, thoughtful, or helpful. Please check the FAQ and Help page before asking a question, though, since that may save your time and others'.

Please add new questions at the bottom of the page and sign your post by appending four tildes (~~~~) to it, but otherwise plunge forward!

  • If you have a question or suggestion about a particular article, try using talk pages to keep the discussion specific to that article.

Please sweep the pub Keeping the Pub clean is a group effort. If we have too many conversations on this page, it will get too noisy and hard to read. If you see an old conversation (i.e. dormant for a month or more) that could or should be moved to another page, please do so, and note there that it has been swept in from the pub.

  • A question regarding a destination article should be swept to that article's discussion page
  • A discussion regarding a policy or the subject of an expedition can be swept to that policy or expedition discussion page
  • A simple question asked by a user can be swept to that user's talk page, but consider if the documentation needs a quick update to make it clearer for the next user with the same question.
  • A pointer to a discussion going on elsewhere, such as a notice of a star nomination or or a request to comment on another talk page, can be removed when it is two months old. Any discussion that occurred in the pub can be swept to where the main discussion took place.

Any discussions that do not fall into any of these categories, and are not of any special importance for posterity, should be archived to Wikitravel:Travellers' pub/Archives and removed from here. If you are not sure where to put a discussion, leave it alone—it's better to spend your efforts on those that you do know where to place.

Country's official name and type of government[edit]

It seems that I and User:Ttcf have reached a impass. Ttcf argues that adding the correct type of government to the infobox and adding the official name of a country in the article will make Wikitravel more like a inferior version of Wikipedia. While I argue that it will not, and if so, what about the infobox? If adding the official name and correct type of government will make Wikitravel more like Wikipedia, than the infobox shouldn't be in the articles about countries. And then the official name, adding the countries actual name like say adding officialy, Nation of Brunei, the Abode of Peace to the article about Brunei will make WT more like WP? It's not like I'm adding the countries leader(s) or defence budget to the article. Seqqis (talk) 18:19, 30 November 2014 (EST)

I think that this may well boil down to a question of tone.
I see that you are very active and experienced at Wikipedia but that encourages dry, encyclopaedic writing.
We're a Travel Guide and should write our articles from the point of view of the traveller. We're enjoined to ""Be conversational and informal when writing articles", and told that "Lively writing is welcome. The requirement of being fair should not be taken to mean that all writing must be bland and encyclopaedic. Wikitravel should celebrate travel, and you should feel free to share the adventure and excitement of the journey and the destination through your writing. For example, North Korea's human rights situation can and should be summed up as an "Orwellian nightmare", as opposed to noting that "some organizations have expressed concern about less than full compliance to international human rights standards, a charge vigorously denied by the Foreign Ministry.""
I do indeed think that
a) it's impossible to encapsulate most country's governmental systems in a few short words appropriate to our quickbar
b) trying to do so leads to endless unproductive tussles
c} most travellers are sincerely and resolutely uninterested in whether France is a "Unitary semi-presidential constitutional republic" rather than just a common or garden variety republic. (Is there any governement that claims to operate a "non-constitutional republic"?) For those that are interested we can add the information lower down in the "Understand" section.
d) we should remove the "governement" category from the quickbar (and perhaps replace it with something succinct and factual and possibly of more interest to the traveller such as the number of murders per 100,000 residents per year or the number of overseas visitors per year or just shorten the length of the quickbar altogether by leaving one less entry...)
None of the information you keep adding to various articles is being expunged. It's just that some of the stuff about the legal drinking age for alcohol or soliciting prostitutes or screwing the locals or whether France is currently on it's Fifth Republic, deserves a different prominence lower down in the body of the article rather than as the first thing that socks you in the eye when you start reading. (And please remember that the quickbar is all you get to read in the Mobile version unless you open other headings!)
While I have this opportunity, I also sincerely doubt that most practical travellers give a hoot about what languages are "Official" (Māori is the name of a people and not their language) and which are not -they just want to know what to expect. While it may be amusing to know that England and the US have no official language (no, not even their respective versions of English) and that New Zealand has Te Reo as an official language, what's really important in a travel guide is that English should get you by in all three. These kind of interesting tidbits about quirks of language and constitutional arrangements belong in the body text - not usually in the opening paragraphs (technically our H1 heading, and what search engines give most importance to).
Do you really think that an opening of
France (Officialy the French Republic) is a country located in Western Europe. Clockwise from the north, France borders Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany to the northeast, Switzerland to the east, Italy to the south-east and Spain to the south-west, across the Pyrenees mountain range (the small country of Andorra lies in between the two countries). The Mediterranean Sea lies to the south of France, with the Principality of Monaco forming a small enclave. To the west, France has a long Atlantic Ocean coastline, while to the north lies the English Channel, across which lies the last of France's neighbours, England (part of the United Kingdom). In the Carribean, France borders the Netherlands via the French territory of Saint-Martin which borders the Dutch territory of Sint Maarten. Five oversea regions also form part of France: Martinique and Guadeloupe in the Caribbean, French Guiana in South America, and Reunion and Mayotte, both off the coast of Madagascar. Numerous French oversea territories also exist around the Earth with varying status.
(complete with TWO spelling mistakes) is better for a travel guide than
France is the country that more people enjoy visiting than any other.
France is geographically one of the most diverse countries in Europe. Its cities contain some of the greatest treasures in Europe, its countryside is prosperous and well tended and it boasts dozens of major tourist attractions, like Paris, the French Riviera, the Atlantic beaches, the winter sport resorts of the French Alps, the castles of the Loire Valley, Brittany and Normandy. France is renowned for its gastronomy (particularly wines and cheeses), history, culture and fashion.
when the "missing" information about France bordering the Netherlands and Madagascar can still be found further down the page?
Please remember that most of our country pages were seeded by material being imported from the CIA Fact Book, and in many of them that US centric, what's-important-for-preserving-diplomatic-relations-or-for-invasion purpose still shows - right down to the formulaic and often imprecise "the country" scattered throughout many articles. The lead paragraphs for most countries are well overdue a complete re-write. --Ttcf (talk) 19:04, 30 November 2014 (EST)
The govt info line should be deleted from the quickbar template. We can't do it well in just a word or two and attempting the impossible just leads to edit wars - we should leave that sort of stuff to Wikipedia - especially since all of our country articles are already linked to the relevant Wikipedia article. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 07:18, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Additional information for images[edit]

Is there a suggested maximum length for a caption?

If the caption says it all, should the description repeat the caption or be left blank?

If the credit and the source would be identical should the source repeat the credit or be left blank?

Should credit be to Wikitravel ID or full name of photographer? Assuming work is being uploaded by the photographer. —The preceding comment was added by MichaelRpdx (talkcontribs)

Photos It may seem pedantic but the traveller comes first: is the caption you want to write more useful than blank space? There is no technical limit on photo captions as far as I'm aware but more than a few dozen words would probably not be useful. A caption shouldn't replace a listing and there will definitely be information that a caption would never include (like a fax number). Sourcing a photo shouldn't necessarily be the same as the credit but if they are, it's fine to put the same info. As far as credits in the caption of an article, it's probably irrelevant to most travellers who took a photo, so you could probably omit that. Koavf (talk) 12:08, 19 January 2015 (EST)

Right, OK, that clarifies the length of caption question. To clarify my question, it refers to the fields of the template one fills out when uploading an image.

Captions I don't want to be dismissive, so please don't read it this way but go for it: just try out whatever you think is best and let us know if it won't display properly or if it seems like it might be a problem. For what it's worth, I think you're doing a great job so far and you can always ask any question you want here. Koavf (talk) 12:26, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Hi, I also just left you a message on Wikitravel Shared, happy to help further if needed. Adzas (talk) 12:40, 19 January 2015 (EST)
Koavf, understood, you did not come across as dismissive at all. This falls into the "but my English isn't so good" realm. Do what you think fits and other people will come in and adjust as needed.—The preceding comment was added by MichaelRpdx (talkcontribs)

Misuse of Template:Warningbox[edit]

THere is an increasing tendency to misuse this template and cry Wolf too often and in too many places.

This is hardly surprising since both the strategic and practical advice about how to include governmental advisories at Template:Warningbox/doc is NOT linked or displayed on the actual template page itself!

I would edit the template myself - except that it has been locked so that only admins can edit it. -- 00:02, 24 January 2015 (EST)

BUMP! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2015 (EST)

I´m not sure what exactly you want to add to the template, as both the template page and the doc page seem to have the same information? Adzas (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2015 (EST)
I currently see this when I look at Template:Warningbox :

This template is meant for non-obvious dangers to life and limb, and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:

  • "civil war in this region"
  • "devastated by earthquake last week"
  • "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
  • "death penalty for marijuana possession"

Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).

Do not use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").

If the danger affects the entire region, the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localized or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".

Whereas if the documentation at Template:Warningbox/doc was being properly included and displayed, I would see much more, ie:

When to use[edit]

This template is meant for non-obvious dangers to life and limb, and should be used sparingly. Appropriate uses include:

  • "civil war in this region"
  • "devastated by earthquake last week"
  • "frequent grizzly bear attacks"
  • "death penalty for marijuana possession"

Warningboxes can be used in the immediate aftermath of natural disasters, but should be removed as soon as the destination becomes reachable again (airports open, hotels available, no more plague victims).

Do not use this for minor announcements ("closed for repairs"), minor dangers ("fine for littering", "do not feed the monkeys") or obvious dangers ("do not walk on railway tracks", "do not wander down dark alleys while intoxicated").

How to use[edit]

If the danger affects the entire region, the warning box can be placed at the very top of the article. If the danger is localised or avoidable, place it under "Stay safe".

The warning message should be placed after the | in the template.

To add advisories, insert the full and direct URLs of a particular government's country-specific information into the available country parameters: australia, canada, india, ireland, nz, southafrica, uk, us

Example: {{warningbox|March 2013: a large number of strikes and protests took place across the country in response to the trials of alleged war criminals. Both supporters and detractors of the accused are in civil disobedience campaigns. Strikes frequently turned violent, with over 60 people killed. Monitor local news for updates and try to avoid large crowds and protests. |australia= |canada= |ireland= |nz= |uk= |us= }}

Travel advisories[edit]

This template allows the addition of Government travel advisories. The following links may help find URLs of official advisories:

--Babaying balikbayan (talk) 20:26, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Recommendation that tout be blocked for 1 day[edit]

Despite several warnings at User talk:Candyline, this hotel marketeer has neither replied nor modified their touting behaviour. I recommend they be blocked for 24h as a "heads-up" not to ignore established and clear written policy on marketing campaign codes in URLs]. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 23:08, 3 February 2015 (EST)

Thanks, Binbin! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 06:58, 4 February 2015 (EST)

Cebu City[edit]

Please would someone with admin privileges delete the blocking re-direct and move the page name to the most common name in the English language ((and the name already in use in many of our articles): Cebu City. --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2015 (EST)

Have a look now, I removed a re-direct which seemed double, let me know if I missed anything that you wanted done. Adzas (talk) 09:45, 4 February 2015 (EST)
Thanks, Adzas! --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Listings Being Removed[edit]


I have tried to add multiple hotel listings to this site and majority of them are being removed. I can give several examples if needed but I am not sure why some listings are staying while others are being removed. We follow the same pattern for each listing so it does not make sense that some are added while others are removed. All the contributor says is our listing was removed for not following the guidelines. We have read through your guidelines to make sure we follow what is outlined. Further, the site welcomes business owners to add their listing as outlined here -,_business_owners

I work at the Corporate offices so I have a team of individuals that are working to 1) Clean up listings since we've changed URLs to many of our hotels. We have consolidated much of our properties into one site so that is the reason our URLs have changed. 2) Work with individual hotel owners to make sure properties are up-to-date and help them out by offering support in certain areas such as what we are doing here.

If you link to an individual hotel owners site then we leave the link as is. If the hotel is not listed on the page, we then move forward adding a listing. This is our process. Any insights into why a lot of our listings are being removed would be appreciated. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buash (talkcontribs) 18:58, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Thank you for reading the business guidelines and trying to be a good contributor. You may find that this is not the right venue for you, however. At its heart, Wikitravel is a resource by travelers for travelers - not by businesses for travelers. As such, we take a much wider view of what looks like "spam," and when a company or its marketing firm seeks to inundate our community-written pages with listing after listing that seeks to benefit itself rather than the community, you will find your listings get speedily deleted. The rules you read are a guideline. The spirit of the site is as I have stated. Hope that helps. IBobi (talk) 19:32, 5 February 2015 (EST)
For what it's worth, I also would have deleted your badly formatted listings (including the ones where you did not bother to log in) that did not include pricing information.
IBobi is the boss here and what he says goes, but many ordinary contributors like myself like to adopt a carrot and stick approach: if you bother to actually read our Manual of Style (and other advice hyperlinked in blue) and to reply to messages left on your talk page (where it would have been perhaps more appropriate to post this), then it's human nature that editors may give you a bit more rope, eh? Let's be clear about this, there can be some synergy and mutual benefit, but the traveller comes first and you need to do some serious reading - including how to add your signature to your posts on article discussion and talk pages such as this one ... --Babaying balikbayan (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2015 (EST)

Thanks for the reply. I fully understand that travelers take precedence however, I doubt I am the first business to add a listing to the site. For example, on the page you pointed out your badly formatted listings (including [,_D.C./East_End&diff=prev&oldid=2282349 I noticed that all of the hotels listed in the Mid-Range section are linking to bitly links which go to This is fully against your guidelines. Plus, they use bitly links which are usually used by SEO spammers. Anyways, I thank you for not removing my business owners hotel listing. Moving forward I will let business owners add there own listings to this site and hope you will allow them to add them. Thanks. --User:Buash (talk) 0940, 6 February 2015 (EST)

Thank you for noticing the bitly links. I just removed them as they breach our External links policies. Cheers! IBAlex (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2015 (EST)

Embassy policy[edit]

Including the list of embassies in the guide to a capital city of a large counties has not been thought through. For Washington and Beijing, there are far too many embassies. What are they doing there? Embassies serve the whole country, not the city. If I need an embassy, then I am not likely to already be in Washington or Beijing. What if I am in Nevada? I may need to go to a consulate, but where is the nearest consulate? Some will be in California and will be missed. For most countries no change is necessary as the capital is the only major city. For large countries, we should consider the traveller may be in real need of urgent consular assistance and unless they are already in the capital city, they will find the current system difficult.

The other reason for change, is that the capital cities are mostly enormous cities already. These capital city articles do not need to be made longer by having pages of embassy information added to them. Also what about embassy districts? Would we repeat all the information and make it difficult to maintain? Let's make it easier to visit major capital cities.

The appropriate policy for large countries (with more than 100 embassies) is as follows:

  1.  Put all the embassies and consulate details of one country on a single page, and keep that page maintained.
  2.  Provide a link to that page, from the country page, the capital city page, any city with consulates and any other page where a reader may look for consular assistance.
  3.  Provide only non-consular information about embassies on the capital city and district pages. An embassy or an embassy district would be discussed as worth visiting for non-consular reasons, such as cultural centre or interesting architecture.

Ideally, this should developed into a policy. Lawe (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2015 (EST)

This topic seems to be a bit overlooked which is a pity since it can lead to a valuable change in our pages and policies. I agree with Lawe, huge lists of embassies/consulates in a city's article aren't that useful and an "Embassy district" (or whatever we decide to call it) may be a good choice as well as having embassies/consulates pages for countries. I hope other users and Admins will join the discussion and share ideas. GiulioC (talk) 15:17, 23 February 2015 (EST)
I totally agree with above, huge lists are not useful, so great Lawe brought this up. However, I´m not sure yet what the value would be of different pages for each country with just lists of embassies, as we always say we don´t want wikitravel to become like the yellow pages. Many countries have a general link that lists embassies in that country, why not just add that one link (example, and just remove those long lists out of the articles? Either way, a change is definitely needed. Adzas (talk) 18:15, 23 February 2015 (EST)
In some cities, embassies may be a tourist attraction. In Canberra, countries use traditional architectures. In Beijing, embassies must be in designated embassy districts. In Paris, some embassies had cultural centres attached. Lawe (talk) 00:42, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Re: Wikitravel page User talk:VeritasVera has been created by IBilkka[edit]

Hello Wikitravel, A few weeks ago I got an email from user IBilkka about me editing some text on the Kampala page... ==========================================================================

Hi VeritasVera! Welcome to Wikitravel. I adjusted your edit on the Kampala page (just formatting), but can you double check the url of the Consulate you added, it does not seem to work. To help you further contributing, we've created a quick contribution guide and a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. --

IBilkka (talk) 18:55, 18 January 2015 (EST) ===========================================================================

But the truth be said: I have never edited anything on this page. My only aditing was on the page with Bosnian Common Phrases.

Thanks. Kind regards to all! Veritas Vera

Making Wikitravel Easier for Translators[edit]

Hi all,

I'm an amateur translator, with a few years of translation experience, mainly Japanese -> English, and I'm looking to fill in the gaps in some of the Wikitravel articles by translating them from better articles written in the local language. I'm sure I'm not the only one, and maybe everyone has been really efficient or something, because it's really difficult to find articles which need translating. I like to believe there are lots of articles out there written in someone's native language which would benefit more travellers by being translated to English, is there any way we can make an index for us translators?

I would be willing to translate Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Russian or Spanish to English, but all the work needed to contribute this technical expertise is really daunting. Thanks! —The preceding comment was added by HandsomeBoh (talkcontribs)

Hello HandsomeBoh! Help is always welcome! We do have one tool that may meet your expectations, the page! Hope this will help, otherwise, feel free to ask! Happy translation! PierrB (talk) 22:17, 21 February 2015 (EST)
I have seen that page, but it seems to have very few articles which need translating. Are you sure there aren't any others haha? —The preceding comment was added by HandsomeBoh (talkcontribs)
Hi, great that you want to help with the articles! We don´t really work with a list at the moment of articles to translate, we just plunge forward where we feel an article needs attention or needs translating. I am working on the dutch version where we just discuss with the users there and work on articles, and if I see a great article on the dutch version which is not yet complete on the english version, I would just work on that. Our main focus has been to improve existing articles so go ahead and jump in! Greatly appreciated! Adzas (talk) 06:27, 22 February 2015 (EST)

Inquiry about name change of article[edit]


I hope I'm doing this well. I would like an advice. I made a wiki page about my town Kaštela. Now I'm thinking if it's going to be a problem for people trying to find it, as the letter š is not really in use. So I would like to make it that if somebody searches for Kastela also arrives to Kaštela page. Any help?

Thank you, Gandor —The preceding comment was added by Gandor (talkcontribs)

Names If you want to know more about how this software works, you can check MediaWiki's homepage to get all the documentation. The quick answer is that anyone can easily make a redirect from Kastela to Kaštela. Koavf (talk) 03:27, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Thank you very much Koavf. I don't know a lot about changing that stuff. I'm amateur. I really appreciate your help. :)

Thank you once again, Gandor —The preceding comment was added by Gandor (talkcontribs)

It looks like Koavf already made a re-direct, so all will be able to find your town. Thanks for your contributions! Adzas (talk) 09:48, 24 February 2015 (EST)

Banners are coming to every article![edit]

The Wikitravel team has been hard at work with the newest addition to the site, banner images on every page! The banners provide two major benefits:

  1. They streamline the positioning of the table of contents on every article while respecting the various screen resolutions that are in use today.
  2. They provide a beautiful hero image to kick off every article.

We encourage all travelers to create new banners on articles that are still missing one and to suggest image updates on articles that do.

We hope you enjoy and as always please feel free to provide feedback below! IBcaldera (talk) 16:57, 5 March 2015 (EST)

The team may indeed have been hard at work but the idea came from that Other Wiki and so did the actual template, withour proper attribution. You (specifically IBcaldera who uploaded it) need to either add attribution to comply with the CC-by-SA license or delete the file. Pashley (talk) 05:02, 6 March 2015 (EST)
I do not know of any legal jurisdiction where ideas (as opposed to their novel implementation) are legally protected intellectual property. You're correct that copying the code of a WikiMedia Foundation template without proper attribution is a copyright infringement in most material jurisdictions. However, IBcaldera may have a plea in mitigation that appropriate attribution is mechanically prevented here by the various filters that are in place.
To me what is more important is that the banners have been implemented in an even worse way than at that other place.
There's certainly an argument to be had that large images at the top of every article give a fresh and brighter feel to our guide (the downside being that there is no switch for logged in users who are on slow or expensive connections to turn them off - as they can do with the adverts).
However, it's pretty stupid to then go and uglify them by plonking a (defective and deficient) horizontal mini table of contents in their lower part.
(Was this a conscious decision or just the inadvertent result of unthinking plagiarism?)
It's then adding insult to injury to configure the template so that it irredeemably prevents a proper multi-level ToC from being displayed even if the magic word of __TOC__ is used to try and force the display of the multilevel table of contents that is often needed for effective copyediting or efficient use. 07:57, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Hello. Encouragement to create banners is interesting to me - but how can i look at the existing banners, other than on corresponding articles? Eg, i have checked this one and it has no its location (directory) on WT Shared. It looks like pending somewhere in the space. It is relevant to look at the existing banners before starting to create new or replace existing ones. Or did i miss something? And if i create the new one for some article - i assume i have to upload it to WT Shared, so do i need it to post on that article's talk page to make it available for admin review? I'm not entirely confident that my banner will be 100% suitable, at least technically, so i'd like to show it to admin first. Once i uploaded it to WT Shared i can show it. Isn't it enough, should i upload it to talk page too? I'm a regular user and am quite ignoramus, all i'm asking about is probably supposed to go without saying, but how i'm supposed to know those things if nobody tells them? :) . Most of the problems I face here is that i don't know almost all things that go without saying. --Local (talk) 05:00, 9 March 2015 (EDT)


Hi! Your banners are really nice, but regrettably, there can be errors. If you look at Surat Thani in Thailand, and Surat in India you will find that both have the same banner!!!!!! Please rectify! Avemario (talk) 06:40, 28 April 2015 (EDT)

Hey, Avemarino! Thanks for the feedback! I've updated the banners on Surat Thani and Surat now. IBcaldera (talk) 15:59, 28 April 2015 (EDT)
"Beautiful banners are coming to every article" - but is it worth the collateral damage of losing the table of contents in Country articles? 20:17, 8 May 2015 (EDT)
Absolutely Not! See what happens to itineraries: It's ridiculous.
By all means have a standout, panorama style image at the top of some articles, but keep a working table of contents! 14:54, 16 May 2015 (EDT)

Thai Phrasebook[edit]

Hi yet again!

As much as I hate to be a total pain in the arse, I really do need to comment on the Thai phrasebook.

I did send a message to the person who wrote it, but did not get an answer.

Problem with the phrasebook, is that it tells how the Thai - English transliteration system works, and not how Thai is correctly pronounced. So if you use this phrasebook in Thailand, I am certain that you will get blank stares!!

As an example - ก is definitely pronounced G, as in English, and not K as quoted in the article. I can guarantee this from my own knowledge of the language, from what friends of mine in Thailand (who also speak good English) tell me, and from how I hear Thai people speaking. As an example - ไก่ is pronounced Gai and means chicken. ไข่ means egg and is pronounced Kai. Both have the same low tone. So does the chicken or the egg come first??

If you see signs there written in English, the transliterations are totally inaccurate - for example - Phuket is really Pooget; Krabi is Grabee, Kanchanaburi is Garnjanaburee etc etc etc!

Sure, some of the problem is caused by a couple of Thai consonants we do not have in our language (in particular BP ป (as the P in spit), and DT ต (as the T in stop)), as well as the fact that only 8 consonant sounds can end a syllable (so if it ends in G it must revert to K, in D it reverts to T etc etc) - confused?? Especially when at the start of a syllable they are pronounced G and D respectively. In addition, there are many vowels in the language which we do not have.

So what do we do?

Leave something totally inaccurate and useless to travellers there? Or fix it?

I am no professor of languages, although I am lucky enough to have a head for them (thanks to my Father)and I do speak Thai well enough to get around non English speaking areas easily, although at age 72, learning is not quite the same as at age 16!!

I have no idea how to rewrite it, and I have no idea how to insert the tone marks your Writer has used (and I add that many of those are inaccurate, with many of the words with a tone not recorded as such.) The best I can think of is to do a brief write on just how the language is actually spoken, at the start of the article, and comment that what is there is merely a transliteration which is not accurate if speaking Thai.

You can get further information online - try "Thai Language.Com" which says the same thing as I have above.

Your call...................

Avemario (talk) 04:24, 13 May 2015 (EDT)

ttcf What will help a traveler most? Koavf (talk) 23:56, 13 May 2015 (EDT)

To be honest, I don't think that the phrasebook will help very many travellers at all! The overwhelming majority are only over there a month at the most, as you have to pay for a visa to stay longer. Also, most people are only there for a brief enough holiday, so there is little point in them learning the language at all, and if they want to, a far better option is with a book and CD, which can be obtained cheaply enough. Sure, it helps to learn to say "hello, how are you?" and similar simple phrases even if the majority of visitors go to the usual tourist ares where there are plenty of English speaking Thai people. Even in the out of the way places there is always someone who speaks some English - it is a compulsory subject at all schools there. Since most people have access to the internet, and carry an phone or laptop, they can access the far more accurate "Thai" website which gives a full range of words and phrases in Thai.

So my opinion would be to delete the phrasebook altogether (in the other languages also - the French one is even worse than the English one). Maybe a simple article helping people to read the English signs over there would be far more useful, in addition to a few short phrases as above. Also how to pronounce the Thai vowels and consonants, without too much detail, as there are 44 consonants and 32 vowels in the language!

Avemario (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2015 (EDT)

Anybody interested in my answer????????????????? Avemario (talk) 03:51, 20 May 2015 (EDT)

I think that now Google is offering instant voice translations on smartphones, etc, the utility of phrasebooks is diminishing. I think it's good that you are discussing these issues here but, absent any pertinent replies, you have the usual facility to plunge forward and edit the phrasebooks as you feel fit. Personally, I wouldn't support deletion - it's entirely possible that someone may come along in the future and greatly improve them. 06:26, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Deletion I am keenly interested but I wanted to see if anyone else responded. I have actually thought about your suggestion daily. I think it's still worthwhile to have a phrasebook for a variety of reasons: imagine that someone wants to go off the beaten path in Thailand, in which case he may encounter someone with low English proficiency. Alternately, it's simply pleasant and a sign of goodwill to speak (e.g.) Catalan with someone in Barcelona, even though everyone there knows Spanish. Plus, it might be useful for reading signs in the local language. I can easily imagine several reasonable and commonplace instances where having a (e.g.) Danish phrasebook would be useful even though virtually all Danes have a very high competency in English. Does that not seem fair? Do you still think that deletion is a good idea? I'm interested in discussing this further. Koavf (talk) 23:02, 23 May 2015 (EDT)

Hi Koavf!
Thanx for your opinion.
Problem with the phrasebook is that it will be of absolutely no use to read signs in the Thai language at all, let alone speak it!
I understand what you are saying about a Danish phrasebook, as I also speak French, German and Spanish (but again, not fluently).
But these are languages with the Latin alphabet (and I learned Latin at school and loved it!) Thai has 44 consonants and 32 vowels! And some of them are difficult to get your tongue around (trust me!)
The main problem with the Thai phrasebook is that it does not pronounce Thai at all correctly! As I said, the letter ก which the phrasebook says is pronounced "K", is in reality pronounced "G" - same as we pronounce this letter! I know where the mistransliterations come from because I know the Thai language. There are also other notable errors - ie the consonant ป (bp in the phrasebook, pronounced like the "p" in "spit")is not given a Thai letter, nor is ต (dt, pronounced like the "t" in "stop"). Both of these are VERY commonly used consonants.
There is no such thing as "KH", "PH" or "TH" in Thai - there is only "K". "P" and "T".
For instance in the phrasebook - "I'm sorry = "kho thot" (just pronounce that in English as written!). The correct pronunciation is "Kaw Tot" (which is as close in English as I can transliterate. In reality it is the "aw" as in the old American TV series " LA Law", and the "O" is extended to double the way we pronounce the letter - not like in "cool", but more like in "cold" (but longer).
Maybe we leave the phrasebook there, but I write an introduction explaining it has something to do with the transliteration system, which is the main way the Thai English signs are written.
A simple explanation to understand how to reasonably pronounce the signs will I think be far more useful than the phrasebook.
Maybe also a few easy phrases with a correct transliteration.
Your call..................
Avemario (talk) 07:17, 24 May 2015 (EDT)
Thanks for bringing this up! I really like the idea of the introductory explanation. I feel like deleting it completely could create a "hole," by which I mean readers would see French, Italian, Mandarin, and other phrasebooks and then wonder where the Thai phrasebook is. And I agree with Koavf, these phrasebooks are(in their in own little way) additional pieces of goodwill towards different communities around the globe.
I digress, the introduction paragraph would be awesome! =] IBcaldera (talk) 15:06, 26 May 2015 (EDT)

OK, thanx for the answer, but it will have to be more than a paragraph - more like a page or two, so people can more accurately read the English signs over there, and also understand how the Thai letters are correctly pronounced. Will this be OK? I won't get too detailed)

Avemario (talk) 03:51, 27 May 2015 (EDT)


Please would someone who has the relevant tools revert the self-serving recent edits from the IP address of 11:57, 18 May 2015 (EDT)

Mmmm, does nobody with admin privileges read here or wish to respond?
Surely this page should be on their watch lists - or is there another page that they read? 12:20, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Hi! Thanks for your message! Edits from this user have been removed yesterday and IP has been blocked yesterday as well by our admin IBcaldera. Thanks again for keeping an eye on edits in this community! Warm regards, IBAlex (talk) 13:57, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Hey there, forgot to reply - handled it yesterday. Thanks for the heads up! IBcaldera (talk) 14:06, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Thanks for your response and effective action.
Is this the best place for these kind of alerts to be made, please? 20:21, 19 May 2015 (EDT)
Spamming I didn't respond because IBcaldera had already reverted it and blocked the IP--I figured that addressed your concern. Please feel free to post here. Thanks. Koavf (talk) 00:43, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Thanks for your reply Justin - I'll assume it means that there is no "admins' noticeboard" or similar on this Wiki and, unfortunately, this is the best place for these kind of alerts to be made. 06:26, 20 May 2015 (EDT)
Yep! I'd say this is the best place. It was definitely just my goof to not come back to confirm the changes were reverted/deleted. IBcaldera (talk) 14:03, 20 May 2015 (EDT)



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