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User talk:TVerBeek/archives

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Contents

Welcome[edit]

Hello TVerBeek!

Welcome to Wikitravel. Please take a sec to look at our copyleft and policies and guidelines, but feel free to plunge forward and edit some pages. Scanning the Manual of style, especially the article templates, can give you a good idea of how we like articles formatted. If you need help, check out Wikitravel:Help, and if you need some info not on there, post a message in the travellers' pub.

Thank you for contributing to Akureyri. Your uploaded images are very nice too. However, please read the Wikitravel:Image policy. The Image:Akureyri.jpg for example has the face of a person on the right hand side. Unless you have a model release, we cannot use this image. It would be OK if it were cropped. Also, all images need a release statement. A simple statement saying something like taken by me, released under CC-by-SA is enough. Sorry about the bureacracy but we need to be careful where images are concerned. The text is fine. If it is a bit old, someone else with newer information, can update it. --Huttite 22:02, 1 Jan 2006 (EST)

My family's always complained that there are never any people in my vacation photos. I can't win. {wry grin} I've edited the photo to comply, and fuzzed out an iffy face in another snapshot. Todd VerBeek 21:06, 18 March 2006 (EST)

Isle Royale National Park[edit]

Just a note to say that you've done a great job with Isle Royale National Park. Thanks! -- Ryan 13:28, 18 March 2006 (EST)

I'm just trying to keep myself occupied while waiting to go back there in June. Todd VerBeek 21:06, 18 March 2006 (EST)

LNT[edit]

Thanks for linking my blurb about Leave No Trace policies on the Acadia National Park page to the LNT page that I didn't know existed. I was trying to figure out an easy way to summarize effort without plaigurizing, so this works well. -- Derek 13:12, 25 March 2006 (EST)

Hey TVER[edit]

HELLO i would like to ask you for help editing my pages since Tom is not liking me and is probably busy at the moment as of windhorse and somone else? Traveler2006 14:37, 28 March 2006 (EST) thnks asap?

On Vandalism[edit]

Certain vandals appear to get their jollies by pissing people off. If you think you might be dealing with an attention-seeking vandal, it is best to avoid all communication with it once the initial attempt at corrections have failed. And if you get tired of them, always feel free to walk away for a bit and assume that someone else will clean up the mess -- it's a team effort! -- Colin 16:36, 28 March 2006 (EST)

aim? mine is feverwarrior todd to say hello and no bad stuff. thank you

Map[edit]

Hi Todd, just wondering if I could get your technique for creating your map of Isle Royale. I've attempted a couple maps of Mount Desert Island but haven't been satisfied with them. This page is one of my babies, so I want to do it justice. Thanks for the info. -- Derek 10:27, 6 April 2006 (EST)

Rail travel in North America[edit]

Todd, yesterday you persuaded me on the case for Tips for rail travel and adding a "See Also" section to the various rail travel articles. However, I have a question for you about the future of these rail articles. In your opinion do you think Rail travel in Canada and Rail travel in the United States should be merged back together or remain seperate articles? I know the benefit of having the articles seperated is that the US can be expanded, however at the same rate I'm worried that the Canadian article will be unable to be grow much unless commuter rail info is added in. What do you think? Sapphire 15:30, 6 April 2006 (EDT)

From my talk page:

I suppose they could be separate articles, but I think the information for Canada, the US, and Mexico would fit well into just one. Sadly there just isn't that much to tell (especially Mexico), and there's a fair amount of overlap, so it makes sense to me. For example, I live as close to Ontario as to Illinois, so if I were looking into taking a rail trip, seeing both Canadian and US routes listed in the same place would be helpful. - Todd VerBeek 09:16, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

Right, that's was my concern too, but I seperated them because Evan saw it turning into something like that, but there seems to be only one noteworthy rail passenger service in Mexico and very little passenger service in Canada. The US is the bulk of the information. So should I merge them back and then VFD Canada and the US articles? Sapphire 09:24, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

From the Japan talk page

The issue is how much information does there need to be in a country's continent's "get around" section? The NA/ EU articles allow for the excessive amount of information to be available for travellers. This would be my idea for coming to a consensus:
  • Rail information should be in a country's "get around" section provided that there is little information that is available or that rail travel is of little use in that country.
  • If there is an excessive amount of information then explore the possibility (does not give a guarantee for the creation) of a [[Rail travel in xxx]] article.
The case for the European article (as an example) many travellers use rail to cross Europe. The information provided in the EU article would therefore be useful, because then the traveller knows what to expect in some cases of traveling by rail across Euroland.

Sapphire 13:41, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

rm status tag[edit]

So, I realize that our article status isn't well-defined for much of anything besides city destination articles, but I think we should probably try to define them for e.g. travel topics, rather than removing the tags completely. I think the same kind of 5-point system would work well. Do you want to take a poke at it, or do you want me to? --Evan 16:39, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

Wow! That was fast. Nice job. I've just done a cursory review and it looks good. I'll make the rest of my comments on Wikitravel talk:article status, but thanks a ton for getting the process started. --Evan 22:00, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

Danger that way lies[edit]

So, I wanted to warn you: every time you change a Template: file, the cache is invalidated for all the articles that use that template. That can mean thousands of invalidated files, and lots of thrashing and high load, for high-usage templates like the status templates. So, it may be a good idea to test them in a workspace first, get them straight, and then update them once or twice. Obviously, it's not killing us, but it'll be a sloooooow process if you do it a lot. --Evan 20:18, 10 April 2006 (EDT)

NA Solution[edit]

I just wanted to get your thoughts again. I'm going to Merge the Canada and US rail articles back together and Redirect Canada and US to Rail travel in NA. Does that sound good to you? No one else has responded to your post about that possibility. Plus if a consensus is ever reached we can just revert it. Sapphire 21:27, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Tornado[edit]

I realized that you changed the map of "Tornado Alley" on Tornado Safety Did you do this because of my comments on Image:TornadoAlley.png? User:Sapphire

New article status pages[edit]

Hi Todd - when you're happy with them, can you add your new article status pages (and any other new pages created in the Wikitravel namespace) to the Wikitravel:Namespace index? I do my best to keep that page up-to-date, but I'm on the road right now and will probably miss any new pages created during the next few days. Thanks! -- Ryan 02:54, 15 April 2006 (EDT)

Your Michigan map[edit]

...is awesome. I just had to tell you how much I enjoyed it! Great job. Haem85 16:51, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

Yellowstone?[edit]

Did you mean to add Yellowstone (which has not been nominated) to the upcoming Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates or did you mispell Yosemite? -- Colin 15:38, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

Bah! Those big western-US parks all look the same. :) - Todd VerBeek 15:48, 27 April 2006 (EDT)

Hanover edits[edit]

Thank you for your edits on the Hanover page. I think it looks better than ever now... - Sixzilly 22:20, 3 May 2006 (WEST)

I suggest...[edit]

You take a peek at Wikitravel:Administrator_nominations. Majnoona 15:23, 6 May 2006 (EDT)

Admin[edit]

So, your admin bit is now flipped, and you should see some extra tabs on the top of each page. Please use them for good, not evil, and remember that with very slight power comes very moderate responsibility. B-) --Evan 23:08, 20 May 2006 (EDT)

The troublesome ampersand[edit]

Just so you know how I finally zapped those pages containing ampersands...when I hit delete, I got an error message. The URL of the delete message contained an ampersand in the wrong place, which I replaced with "%26" and hit return. That did the trick. -- Jonboy 05:28, 22 May 2006 (EDT)

Template:Disambig[edit]

Hi Todd. Could you please tell us why you created Template:Disambig when we already have Template:Disamb doing the same thing? Thanks. Ricardo (Rmx) 18:28, 22 May 2006 (EDT)

Template:Disambig[edit]

Hi Todd - since there is already a Template:Disamb in use, and since it sounds like the Template:Disambig was just an experiment, can you delete the new template? It would be better (IMO) not to have two templates that perform the same function. If you feel the new template should be kept, could you leave a comment as to why on its talk page? Thanks! -- Ryan 10:53, 23 May 2006 (EDT)

Geez, you don't have to nag me. - Todd VerBeek 10:58, 23 May 2006 (EDT)
Sorry, didn't mean to nag. I missed Ricardo's comment above and figured you had missed the comment on the template talk page. I'm a bit of an organization freak, and having unused & duplicate templates hits a sore spot with me for whatever reason. -- Ryan 11:02, 23 May 2006 (EDT)

Infobox[edit]

TVerBeek, Would you please reword the infobox on Berlin#Eat. I like how you rewrite phrases to be more illustrative. Thanks. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 16:02, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

Beautiful! It's appreciated! - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 16:31, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

Comments direct at the wrong person[edit]

I believe the comments made on User_talk:Bill-on-the-Hill#Linz were directed toward you, but the user somehow confused you with BotH. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 18:46, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

I have a hunch you're going to need to go into hiding. First Linz now the bus article (if this turns into an war over the article). If you need a place to hide we have some good places to hiding places in Cincinnati. I'll bring you food and water every day. :) Unless you attack anything about my Cincinnati article. In that case I'll tell everyone where you're at. - User:Sapphire
Many years ago I made plans in case I ever needed to go into hiding. My first phone call would be to a certain person I don't get along with (so no one would ever think of looking for me there), but whom I have enough respect for (and vice versa) that I know I'd be safe with them until things cooled down. But thanks for the offer. - Todd VerBeek 23:32, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

Linz[edit]

Quote: "Those are the headers we use on pages throughout the site, and they're part of our Manual of style. Granted, they're a little unusual, but they're part of what makes Wikitravel different from other travel guides, giving it a more active personality."

Who are "WE"? Are you talking for the whole of Wikipedia? Who decides the style? Who decides the Manual of Style?

A little unusual? They´re not English. Maybe I should have written, "Me eat, you eat... good..."

Does making verbs into commands (See, do, eat) give them a more "active personality"? What does that mean? Can words, or a web-page, have an active "personality"? Hmmm...

Writing "Understand" is also a command/verb, and something that should never be written as a command. History/Overview/Lifestyle is better, or? Tell me I´m wrong.

I changed the words because I think that Gerunds are important. "Eating", as in, "Eating in Linz", (which is what the article is about, after all) is grammatically correct.

Please don´t think this was written hastily, or nastily, but I hope you get my meaning.

andreasegde

Really down there[edit]

Congratulations for all the stuff you're putting into the Antarctica and South Pole articles. They really made me curious and are very enjoyable to read. Ricardo (Rmx) 21:52, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Deletions[edit]

I caught some of the discussion about shortening the wait on deletion of images and articles. What consensus did you guys come to? I'd appreciate a response so I know what to do in the future. Thanks! - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 22:14, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

No consensus has been reached. See Wikitravel talk:Deletion policy. - Todd VerBeek 22:59, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

Geo[edit]

Todd,

Do you know where I can find info about how to insert the Geo tag? It's been a while and I can't find any page about the template by searching. Thanks. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:21, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

See Wikitravel:Geocoding. - Todd VerBeek 15:32, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

Factbookectomy[edit]

Todd rocks.

These barnstars remind me of the stickers that teachers give out to grade school kids, but as goofy as they seem they remain Wikitravel's best way of noting good contributions, so here's one for you. Nice work on cleaning up the last of the factbook imports, as well as for everything else you've been doing around here. Hours and hours of work rewarded with a random bunch of pixels. Cheers! -- Ryan 15:29, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

The Barnstar Award of Doing Tedious Work Everyone Else was Waiting for You to Do.
P.S. Thanks for getting back to me on the geo thing, but I had eventually discovered it. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 15:34, 5 June 2006 (EDT)
They're done? Really? All the factbook articles? That's SO INCREDIBLE. Hooray for Todd! --Evan 12:03, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

Apology[edit]

See my talk page...

Andreasegde 16:01, 5 June 2006 (EDT)

Gardena and Hawthorne[edit]

Gardena and Hawthorne are both cities in Los Angeles County. Typically, when a page has bad content, the best thing to do is blank it, then add the appropriate template, rather than deleting it. --Evan 12:02, 7 June 2006 (EDT)

Section headers deletion[edit]

The article guidelines do say that sections should be left out if the content is not relevant. In the case of small places, where there is no onward destination without going back the way you came, they suggest the Get Out should be left out. In the case of Bergen (Netherlands), which you can walk through in 15 minutes, a Get Around section is inappropriate. I think that the village does not even merit a separate article, but others disagreed. Wesopa 07:49, 9 June 2006 (EDT)

The guideline on an onward destination, as I understood it, was if you would normally visit village B as a day trip from city A, then it should be listed under in the article of city A. 'Onward destinations' are places where you would go to stay for at least one night. I originally put Bergen in the Get Out section of the Alkmaar article, but other people objected precisely that 'nearby villages' don't belong in the Get Out section. (Bergen is within walking distance of Alkmaar).

Since Bergen is near the coast, going anywhere else in the Netherlands normally involves taking the bus to Alkmaar station, and that is how most non-cycling visitors would get there anyway. It is not always the case that places are strung out along a logical itinerary, with an evident content for the Get Out section. Wesopa 09:01, 9 June 2006 (EDT)

Thanks for pointing out the "Respect" irony. I hadn't noticed it out. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 10:27, 9 June 2006 (EDT)

About Cúcuta[edit]

Sr. TVerBeek don't change the page of Cúcuta.

THANKS.

Ricardoramirezj

Perdón? Lo siento, Ricardo, pero voy a continuar editando esa pagina, corregir los errores usted higa cuando usted la corrigio. - Todd VerBeek 14:30, 9 June 2006 (EDT)

About Cùcuta (again)[edit]

I am not copying information from the Spanish Wikitravel, because I created the article of Cúcuta in spanish... check up the history.

Don't change the article of Cúcuta or you will be in the list of vandalism.

PD: If you can't speak well spanish.. just don't do it.

Thanks!!

Ricardo Ramírez

(No soy vandal; soy un admin de Wikitravel ingles.) Y yo hablo espanol (mas o menos). Si puedes leer ingles, puedes leer Wikitravel:Manual of style donde explica como articulos en este website deben ser ajustados a formato. - Todd VerBeek 14:41, 9 June 2006 (EDT)


Grand Canyon[edit]

Thanks for your edits on the Grand Canyon page today. I think we were battling for edit time! We were trying to figure out how best to insert a book, and you did it well. Thanks again. Findbgs 16:57, 9 June 2006 (EDT)

Speedy delete, please.[edit]

Would you please delete Image:Existingbiketrail.JPG. After a second look, the license the Ohio DNP isn't as compatible with Cc-by-sa as I thought it was. Thanks. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 22:03, 14 June 2006 (EDT)

I'd love to, but I don't seem to have admin privs on Shared at the moment. {scratches head} - Todd VerBeek 22:24, 14 June 2006 (EDT)
I found out that I do, so I deleted it.
Ravikiran 02:15, 15 June 2006 (EDT)
For your information: I asked Evan to give me the super powers on Shared too, whenever he gets around to flipping the bit for me. I also told him that you were unable to do the speedy delete for me, because you didn't have admin privs on Shared and he said he would add you. - Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 14:11, 15 June 2006 (EDT)

Stay safe[edit]

Hi Todd. I was recently reviewing the 'Stay safe' section of the USA article and was a little concerned at some of the "don't worry, problems are unlikely" attitude taken. Could you review it a bit too? I'm feeling a bit underinformed on some of it, and wondering if I'm being unduly concerned. -- Colin 18:46, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

Quickbar templates[edit]

Looks like we're down to four articles still needing quickbar templates: Isle of Man, Guernsey, Gibraltar and Republic of Ireland. Rather than risk starting one only to find out we were both working on the same article at the same time I'm gonna take a break for a bit, and if there are any left later tonight I'll take care of them.

As an aside, the Isle Royale National Park article, which was great before, is now off-the-charts awesome with your new pictures and other additions. Very nice work. -- Ryan 21:03, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

Quick question on quickbar formatting - I've been changing "450 sq km" to "450 km2" as I figured it's more concise and clearer for non-native speakers to use the "2" notation. Additionally, I've been capitalizing the first word of each section for consistency ("government=Republic"). I see that you reverted that for Brazil, and I'm curious about your reasoning? Is it due to the changing of line height with superscripts? I'm not married to my way of doing things, but I also don't want to "clean up" your changes while you're cleaning up my changes at the same time. -- Ryan 18:40, 3 July 2006 (EDT)
I've been going with "sq km" because A) that's how the original data was written, so it was the path of least resistance in conversion, and B) the unfortunate ugliness of most browsers' support for superscripts. Other than that, I don't have a strong preference for one or the other. (It'd presumably be trivial to write a bot to do a global search-and-replace to standardize it.) To be honest, I don't see why we'd want to capitalize the government descriptions, as the factbook had it right to begin with: they're not proper names. i.e. "The Republic of Ireland", but "Ireland is a republic". - Todd VerBeek 18:58, 3 July 2006 (EDT)

Image:Compass star emblem coolvetica logo.png[edit]

Would you happen to have any idea what I did to the image? All I know was I was looking at past versions of the image and mistakenly hit rev(ert) and now I can't revert my actions. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 12:54, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

I don't know. It sometimes takes a while (hours, maybe a day) for the history on images to actually show up, so maybe if you wait, you'll be able to revert whatever you might have reverted. - Todd VerBeek 13:01, 4 July 2006 (EDT)
Will do. BTW what do you see? Do you see the Wikitravel logo or a picture on Don Rumsfeld? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 13:03, 4 July 2006 (EDT)
I see the logo. (I only see Rumsfeld when I eat spicy foods too close to bedtime.) - Todd VerBeek 14:22, 4 July 2006 (EDT)

Happy[edit]

I would be really happy if you went here. The thing 10:35, 8 July 2006 (EDT) P.S. I'm NOT a spammer.

why deleted[edit]

hi Todd.

I tried to put a link to wheretostay.com on some pages and I noticed you deleted them. This is a cool site that allows travelers to post reviews and share experiences with others. Can I ask why you deleted my edits?

Tom

Wikitravel is a travel guide. We like to include all the necessary information in our own guide, rather than linking to other people's guides. In particular, we do not have an "External links" section, because the only places we link to are primary sources: the hotels, restaurants, etc. that we list, and the official tourism agencies of the cities and countries we have guides for. - Todd VerBeek 00:05, 9 July 2006 (EDT)

Understood. I have read the "Goal and non-Goals" and get your point. Sorry, should have read that first. To clarify, on a page like this (http://wikitravel.org/en/Barbados) would is be appropriate to create a link to a list of hotels in Barbados in the Sleep section?

Tom

No, not really. See Wikitravel:External links for some details. --Evan 00:27, 9 July 2006 (EDT)
We'd much rather have a list of hotels in the Barbados article itself. - Todd VerBeek 00:30, 9 July 2006 (EDT)

D.C.[edit]

Thanks for beautifing the article. Do you also think the DC article should be called Washington, D.C.? I raised this point sometime back on the DC talk page. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 18:44, 9 July 2006 (EDT)

nl:[edit]

Question: did you put the nl-0 template on your user page because you have a Dutch name and you don't want people to think you speak Dutch? Or is it because you speak a little Dutch?

I'm asking because the main go-between on Wikitravel nl: is traveling in South America, and there's been an uptick in activity on the nl: site. I've been trying to do some welcome messages, but my Dutch is practically non-existent. If you're at all interested in checking out nl:, it'd be a big help. --Evan 13:56, 10 July 2006 (EDT)

Kentwood[edit]

I'm about to get a Wyoming, MI article up with some content. Would you happen to know far is Kentwood from Wyoming? Thanks. -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 21:55, 11 July 2006 (EDT)

Ko Samet[edit]

I queried the Ko Samet article status as it's "usablecity" and Ko Samet is a (very small and extremely un-city-like) island, and I wasn't sure if that's how "usablecity" is supposed to be applied or not. 125.24.4.216 01:00, 14 July 2006 (EDT)

"city" is the closest match of the six different kinds of "usable" templates we have. The others are regions (with cities in them), countries (with currency and visa info needed), phrasebooks, travel topics, and itineraries (which are completely different kinds of articles). - Todd VerBeek 01:05, 14 July 2006 (EDT)
Cheers. And thanks for fixing my botched == Get out == edit!

Talk Main page[edit]

Hi Todd! 83.76.218.153 was me I reverted the spam at the talk of the main page. Ravikiran showed me that yesterday. Did I do it right? Thanks Jan 07:52, 14 July 2006 (EDT)

Mainer2006[edit]

This is likely the same person as User:Traveler2006... just be paitent and bide your time... it only lasted a few days last time. -- Ilkirk 13:49, 14 July 2006 (EDT)

Oh, I know who it is. I'm not being patient with him or nice to him because I want him to go away and not come back. -Todd VerBeek 13:51, 14 July 2006 (EDT)


Time Zone of Sri Lanka[edit]

For the past decade or so, Sri Lanka, has been GMT+6. The GMT +5:30 was correct some years ago, but no longer is. - MMKK 02:55, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

Pisew Falls[edit]

Hi Todd The Missus and I are taking the 22km kike to Kwastickiwan this week.... should be a blast, and hopefully Environment Canada gives us some good news on the weather. I already asked this in the IRC chan, but since you seem to be fairly active, do you think that stub tag still needs to be there? I can't think of much more to add. Weaponofmassinstruction 15:32, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

Delete vandal[edit]

Thanks for dealing with that. I know that stuff is really, really tedious. --Evan 16:21, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

User contributions, middle-click, middle-click, middle-click, click, click, click. Lather, rinse, repeat. No biggie. :) - Todd VerBeek 16:24, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

Images[edit]

Can I delete Image:Manhattan midtown from brooklyn bridge.jpeg and Image:Manhattan downtown from brooklyn bridge.jpeg and move these images to Shared? -- Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 18:00, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

I don't have any real emotional stake in them; my only connection is that I fiddled with their brightness levels. My only concern is whether their full attribution history (crediting User:Mark as creator) will be maintained in the process. - Todd VerBeek 18:12, 18 July 2006 (EDT)

I just caught this[edit]

"If you have a flair for the English language, give the text a full-body massage with a happy ending, and make it sing." I think I'd feel used afterwards. --Evan 08:34, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

Deep down, you know you want it! - Todd VerBeek 08:40, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

Damn you're good[edit]

Outstanding job on the full article copyedits for Cruise ships. I am humbled. Do you write for a living? One bone to pick: you make the balconies seem even smaller than they are! Anyhow, thanks for being wicked smart and for being here. OldPine 16:36, 21 July 2006 (EDT)

Thanks, but... People can get paid to write? Damn my guidance counselor for not mentioning that! All the writing I do costs me time, money, or both. - Todd VerBeek 18:03, 21 July 2006 (EDT)

Guess who[edit]

Boy... I thought I was being helpful and then this happens. Oh well. It was worth a shot.  :( -- Ilkirk 12:27, 24 July 2006 (EDT)

IB concerns[edit]

Thanks for your comments, I agree with your reasoning here. I shall carry on editting and adding for the time being, and if such a time comes, I will protest a bit more loudly if IB does start messing things up. I guess I'm rather wary of a corporate entity being in ownership of such a community driven site like this - can't quite see how it will work beneficially for them without some serious changes to the site. But, as I said, I shall continue until these changes come! Tsandell 12:57, 26 July 2006 (EDT)

Warningbox[edit]

of course you are entitled to believe that a warningbox is not required, however there was significant uproar over the allegedly unjust arrest of a British Citizen, many British people are unaware of the US procedure, and it would be much better for all concerned if our citizens weren't being arrested for having slightly odd senses of humour! Dan, 30 July 2006, 19:34GMT

That's not being arrested for having an odd sense of humor, it's for being incredibly stupid. I was given a stern lecture not to make jokes of that sort when I visited London ages ago (due to "the troubles" in Northern Ireland), so I know that most Brits of normal intelligence know better. The only difference is that now U.S. security agents take it just as seriously as you folks have been doing for the past several decades. We do not include warningboxes on Wikitravel articles to protect against incredible stupidity. - Todd VerBeek 18:38, 30 July 2006 (EDT)
And what happens in case of a difference of opinion like this, I believe the warning is required, you do not, but I was under the impression that there was no hierarchy of command in wikitravel?
Wikitravel operates by consensus. Whenever possible, we try to work out differences of opinion by discussing them and reaching an agreement about what to say that's reasonable and fair. If an agreement can't be reached through that process, and it's a situation where one person wants something and no one else agrees, the one person cannot expect to get his way. And by the way: I've been that person a couple times. - Todd VerBeek 08:09, 31 July 2006 (EDT)

Hypocrisy[edit]

Although I am not normally the type to disagree, it irritates me that you have written derogatory information regarding political freedoms in Iran, but refuse to allow any information about the immoral practices of your own government, perhaps this is right-wing totalitarianism, perhaps this website is not neutral after all and is controlled by Americans? dan

Although there are quite a few editors from the US, Wikitravel's contributors live in many countries (including the two founders in Canada). I assure you that I am no jingoistic patriot; I've protested at the gate of the White House over some my government's moral failings. But I'm not about to turn a travel guide into a political screed against anyone's government. So unless a government's moral failings have a direct impact on travelers (like Iran's possible death sentence for homosexuals), I'm not going to support adding them to the article. While you might argue that detaining a feeble-minded person for making an unwise and disruptive joke about carrying a bomb onto a plane is "immoral", almost any government on the planet would probably do the same. So adding that warning to just the US article would be rather unfair, and adding such common sense advice to every country article would be absurd. - Todd VerBeek 08:09, 31 July 2006 (EDT)

Counties[edit]

I know you generally dislike the idea of using counties in Wikitravel, so if you have any opinion on the matter could you add your comments to the region discussion on Talk:Ohio? In the case of Ohio, which is a big and mostly flat state where the license plates display county and, in the opinion of this former resident of Northeast Ohio, counties are fairly well known, they seem to be an easy way to determine regional boundaries, but you've made strong arguments against them in the past that should probably be considered. Thanks! -- Ryan 18:01, 1 August 2006 (EDT)

Polish pronunciation and its perceived difficulty[edit]

By paroxytonic I meant that in Polish the accent is always on the penultimate syllable. My point is that the perceived difficulty may be different than the real difficulty. If you think Polish pronunciation is difficult, try for example Danish. And then try a tonal language, like Mandarin. Now this is difficult. Not mentioning clicks, which are not just difficult but impossible to master for an adult person.

Of course, there are no easy natural languages. There always is some challenge, but where would you how would you rate Polish pronunciation relative to Danish and Mandarin?

Polish has its difficulties but they are in the grammar, not in pronunciation. In Polish you can actually read the pronunciation from the spelling. You are correct that you need to know the letters and digraphs first, but that's the case with every language. However, in Polish it ends here because knowing how the letters and the digraphs are pronounced plus a few rules you can pronounce almost every word.

Believe me or not, you would be able to pronounce perfectly intelligible Polish instantly if I transcribed a word or phrase into English for you. Of course, you wouldn't be able to reproduce certain phonemes, but it wouldn't matter, as it would not introduce any lexical difference (like sh*t/sheet, sorry for the example). And it can be like that because Polish only has 6 vowels: a e i o u y as compared to twentysomething in RP English and the vowels are not reduced (they sound the same whether accented or not).

It's not trivial, but it's easy. Sorry for such a long tirade but I know that I'm right, It's just that I can't pronounce it :)

Edit: I've forgotten the signature. Here it is: CandleWithHare 19:48, 1 August 2006 (EDT)

Another edit: fixing my typos

"Polish only as 6 vowels"... Is that per sentence?
I am sorry if this is overly blunt, but if you really believe your flippant remark that "no Indo-European language is... a difficult language for a speaker of English," you don't know much about native anglophones' linguistic skills. Many of them have trouble with even Spanish. English is my native language, and even though I'm pretty darn good at Spanish, and I'm good enough at French pronunciation to not be sneered at by Parisian waiters, I can enunciate German and Dutch pretty well (even if I don't know what the words mean), I still find Polish pretty inscrutible. It's a whole different branch of Indo-European, after all. (Since you ask: Danish, being fairly Germanic, wasn't too intimidating, but I relied mostly on their English for the couple days I was in Copenhagen.) Maybe each Polish letter only has a single pronunciation, but they're apparently different from how they're pronounced in English (especially the letters we don't have). I've looked at Polish names and I've heard them pronounced, and the code is not obvious to my eyes and ears. (That and we're used to finding vowels every two or three letters.) Understand that because English is not very phonetic, we don't necessarily learn it phonetically, using whole-word recognition instead, so phonetic languages aren't inherently easy for us. I'm not asking for lessons; I have little chance of using them any time soon. And don't give me linguistic arguments proving that what I know from my own experience is wrong. I'm asking you to spare me the "I know better than you" attitude, because you do not. Are you aware that most anglophones think that English is an easy language? (They learned it when they were only a few years old, after all.) They're wrong. Any chance you might be? - Todd VerBeek 21:15, 1 August 2006 (EDT)


The link about vowels ;) http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Great%20Vowel%20Shift

Ha![edit]

This is why I love reading your comments on various posts - "...a certain class of Chinese masseuses will go the extra five-and-a-half inches..." - Andrew Haggard


Other destinations[edit]

Greetings. I notice that you dismantled the list of nine places I listed under 'Other destinations' on the UK article. I couldn't find a policy that states that there should only be one list of nine, and I orginally began this list in order to take the pressure off the 'list of nine' cites, where there seems to be a continuous battle for places. However, I can understand your concern that the establishment of a second list of nine may be stepping on a slippery slope. Still, though, I believe that some of the places listed are of sufficient interest to the traveler to merit a front page listing. So, taking into consideration your comments and with the view to saving the traveler time in locating these famous landmarks, I have re-written the list. I hope it is agreeable to you. I don't need a reply. If you agree, leave it. If not, then hit the edit button. Cheers. WindHorse 3 Aug 06

Hello from wikia[edit]

I have moved the discussion as suggested below. - Todd VerBeek 15:51, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Please see (and maybe move this more general community discussion to...) Wikitravel:Cooperating with World Wiki. Maj 15:24, 4 August 2006 (EDT)
Should that be Wikitravel talk:Cooperating with World Wiki? ,-- Colin 15:31, 4 August 2006 (EDT)
Yup, but I leave it to TVerBeek if he'd like to move/copy the above to that talk page... Maj 15:40, 4 August 2006 (EDT)
Thanks Todd -- Colin 16:08, 4 August 2006 (EDT)
FYI - I talked to Evan - and calmed down a bit. Sorry about that. What set me off was this: Acura at wikicars was under CC until today (when they changed it to GFDL), and also does not provide attribution to Wikipedia for the same article Acura. I went slightly crazy, seeing that wikicars had stolen the content, without attribution, and put it under CC with what looked like an attempt to fork wikipedia, which would really suck. Gil

Deleting my work??[edit]

Even though, it would be utmost polite not to delete my work on Lower-Saxony, but move it to where you think it belonged. Aside Grafschaft is the German word for County or Duchy, and some regions are counties, i.e. Grafschaft Bentheim, an Lower Saxon enclave in the Netherlands. This was just deleted as well. Although the dukes have -as in the UK nothing to say in the political affairs, the regions are still historically named after them. Then you might also find a way to have the Canadian Lunenburg distiguished from the German one and to have Nienburg removed for it is really not a great tourist attraction. Last, but not least, there are just 8 cities in Lower Saxony, most of which is rural, but has with 8.5 million inhabitants the same population as Sweden. Of the 8 cities there are maximally 5 tourist attractions (or do you like box like housing estates and shopping centres?), but towns like Hamelin (the pied piper) would not feature at all, if we would go by the city notation.


Cheers mate. Kris. How do I create an account then?


Russian region names[edit]

I took the names from Wikipedia, but have changed them as per WT policy. WindHorse 12 Aug 06

I have made further changes. Please have a look, and let me know if there is still anything outstanding. Otherwise, no need for a reply. Thanks. WindHorse 12 Aug 06

Where's VerBeek?[edit]

You can be a crusty pain in the butt sometimes, but I miss ya. I believe you would be the litmus test for my idea to break Bermuda into parish articles and am holding off pending your return. There was a report of a VerBeek sighting in Montana, but later it was corrected to be Elvis. I'm sure you're "enjoying the journey"(tm) wherever you are. OldPine 11:40, 2 September 2006 (EDT)

When you get a second[edit]

Could you send me an email at evan@wikitravel.org? I'd like to add you to the admins mailing list, but I can't do that because you gave a fake email address when registering for Wikitravel (shock!). --Evan 10:07, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

Michigan Divisions[edit]

Hi Todd. While fixing up a disambiguation of Bay City (Michigan), I noticed Bay City and Saginaw are linked to both from Central Michigan and Southeast Michigan, which doesn't seem right. I'm not much up on Michigan nomenclature, so I was wondering if you might be able to sort this out. Thanks! -- Colin 02:12, 28 October 2006 (EDT)

WikiOutdoors[edit]

Todd, when you get a second, could you share your opinion on Wikitravel:Cooperating with WikiOutdoors? I think there's some possible (dare I say it) synergy here, but I'd love to see your opinion. --Evan 20:02, 4 December 2006 (EST)

Admin nomination[edit]

I've nominated User:Cacahuate to become an admin; please comment on Wikitravel:administrator nominations when you have some time. --Evan 01:30, 6 January 2007 (EST)

Hey Todd[edit]

Good to see you... hope things are going well. --evanp 22:36, 11 January 2007 (EST)

Aside from recently spending much of a Mexico/Belize/Honduras cruise quarantined in my cabin and unable to go ashore, and working 50-hour weeks when I'm not on vacation, I can't complain. - Todd VerBeek 22:49, 11 January 2007 (EST)
Yes, but in those specialized situations you've perfected it to an art form. B-) --evanp 10:06, 12 January 2007 (EST)

Recent Changes[edit]

Hi Todd! If you go to Special:Preferences and "Editing", you can check "Mark edits I make as patrolled", so we can concentrate on patrolling the real troublemakers! -- Jonboy 19:47, 25 January 2007 (EST)

Copyleft?[edit]

Would you please read my comments here, think about the issue, then comment? It's fairly important and I'd like to get as many comments as possible. I'm quite worried about the compatibility of CC-by-SA 2.5 (or other non CC-by-SA 1.0) images in a CC-by-SA 1.0 guide. Thanks! -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 16:52, 5 February 2007 (EST)

Weather[edit]

How's the weather up there in the frozen tundra? Cincinnati has seen its first serious snowfall and we were hit by a whopping (according to Cincinnati standards) six inches in five hours. My brother moved up to Detroit a month ago and I bet he's missing the tropics of Cincinnati. How do you Michiganders survive? -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 19:04, 6 February 2007 (EST)

Och, this is nothing compared to the subzero blizzards we had when I was a wee lad. Snowdrifts over my head, I swear! Detroit always gets it easy compared to out here near the west coast, where Lake Michigan acts like a gigantic snow-making machine. To stay warm, we just share body warmth... like the male penguins during the long winter night in the movie Happy Feet. :) Besides, thanks to the SUVs Detroit keeps making, it won't be too many decades before oranges and pineapples replace apples and blueberries as Michigan's main crops. :( -Todd VerBeek 09:05, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Poland[edit]

I reverted your revert of the deletion of the quickbar image. I finally discovered it as a copyvio from our dear friend, Shalom Alechem. It's currently awaiting deletion on Shared. -- Sapphire 21:26, 11 February 2007 (EST)

But I didn't revert anything. I chose a different (public domain) image which is not up for deletion. The mountains/lake photo is confusingly contradictory with the text in the intro paragraph saying how flat Poland is. :) - Todd VerBeek 21:38, 11 February 2007 (EST)
I don't know how I did this, but I've apparently mistaken that photo for a different one, that I think may have already been deleted. It looks kosher to me so I'm going to take the liberty of reverting myself. Sorry. -- Sapphire 21:42, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Happy Birthday![edit]

The Wikitravel Birthday cake — Ravikiran 11:11, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Hope you have a great one! — Ravikiran 11:11, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Happy birthday indeed! --Evan 12:48, 11 March 2007 (EDT)
Happy birthday from me too! Ravi's cooking is scrumdiddlyumptious so be sure the share the cake! -- Sapphire(Talk) • 14:55, 11 March 2007 (EDT)
Thanks, guys! I'm already stuffed from dinner and cake at my parents' house, but I'll put it in the fridge for later. -Todd VerBeek 20:44, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Hell[edit]

Should Hell be our OTBP guide? That way we attract more contributors? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 23:48, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

I've just promoted it to DOTM. - Todd VerBeek 23:54, 31 March 2007 (EDT)
The T-Mobile bit is pretty funny, though it's an accurate description of the service I often received. Bast#%*@! -- Sapphire(Talk) • 00:00, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
Credit where it's due: that was just added by Cacahuate. - Todd VerBeek 00:02, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
So, we also have Earth. Wanna figure out how to show both on the Main Page? --Evan 00:13, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
OK :) - Todd VerBeek 00:26, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
Nicely played! I was wondering how that was going to work out. Man, we've got a surfeit of humor in this crowd. --Evan 00:32, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
cosmetology schools? How in the hell did you think of that? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 01:11, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
Where do you think I got my degree? ;) - Todd VerBeek 01:43, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

Politics[edit]

Sorry about creating the sub header, but the endless opportunities was just far too appealing. I figured out last five Republican presidents three are prime candidates to be the Anti-Christ and I wanted to give the Dems a chance at something greater than mediocrity. BTW, I'm actually a member of the Our Ukraine Party so I think it's fair for me to rip on both of them (hence the Ashcroft reference). :-) Keep up the fight! -- Sapphire(Talk) • 10:58, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

Images[edit]

Hi, TVerBeek. Thanks for your message. I apologize for the confusion. I did it was by mistake. I intended to inform that I had obtained the Forte Brum pictures from the Cultural Foundation of the Brazilian Army (FUNCEB) website. In this site, there is a note in Portuguese saying that (1) the pictures are public, (2) they can be used by others (respectfully), and (3) the foundation would appreciate it if the source was cited. Thus, I have cited the source of the picture in the Recife Wikitravel page.

hi[edit]

could you please come online to the hi version ( http://wikitravel.org/hi/). I need a bit of help with the quikbar. Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 09:33, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

hi:Template:झलक -- Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) •

Muchas gracias :) Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 06:21, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

but the topimage is till giving probs, a small place for a heading comes above the quickbar. see the article on india for eg (hi:भारत )

Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) •

Some anon logged on to the hi wikitravel a few minutes ago and solved the quickbar prob. Was it you? Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 12:27, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

P.S. If it was, thanks a lot. Check out the new hi main page and let me know if it looks good. Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 12:27, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

Well, thanks a lot!

The barnstar's from me -- Upamanyu

Citizendium[edit]

Greetings. Final Licence determination for Citizendium content has not been decided. Articles incorporating Wikipedia content are under GFDL. If you would like to discuss interlinks further, jpotkanski @ cz.org and/or sanger @ cz.org. Replace CZ with citizendium. --Jason Potkanski, Citizendium

Redirects[edit]

Thanks Todd, am I right in assuming that you are only referring to the Arabic redirect I made? Thanks for your heads-up. Koavf 23:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Okay I see what you're saying about the Arabic redirect being superfluous and I agree that furthermore, it probably shouldn't be obligatory to create every possible redirect for a name, but considering that Arabic transliteration is not exactly standardized, it's desirable to have more spellings that someone might use than not, right? My only concern is that someone who has an Arab background would search for a city and not find it because he is accustomed to a certain Latinization and Wikitravel does not have that spelling. I haven't included any that I haven't seen somewhere else in print. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:43, 30 April 2007 (EDT)
Good, good Thanks again for your instruction; I'm new here, and I didn't put forth the effort to read all the relevant policies, so encouragement is appreciated. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 13:20, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Todd[edit]

Todd,

After about one day of contributing here, I can see that this project is not going anywhere. The number of contributors is very small, and their concept of the scope of the project is in some ways bizarre. There appear to be very few talented contributors working on the site. It has huge gaps. It doesn't at all cover what a normal guidebook covers. Sadly, it is proof that not every effort to produce a wiki produces a successful wiki.

You seem like a sincere and dedicated writer with a few strange obsessions about what you want the site to be. Doesn't everybody have a few of those? I hope you are not offended by me saying this, but I wonder why you are spending so much of your time working on this. I can't see that wikitravel is ever going to produce a useful travel guide.

I did look at your profile and I read your article about Isle Royale National Park. It seemed like a very good article. I've backpacked from one end of the island to the other myself.

I hope you'll find some other on-line project that makes better use of your time and skills. Good luck.

HLM HLM 15:02, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Marquesa Islands[edit]

I came across this page today, and, according to Wikipedia, it looks like it should be moved to Marquesas Islands. Since you created it, I was just wondering if you know something that WP doesn't. -- Fastestdogever 00:40, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

I like to think that I know one or two things that Wikipedia doesn't :), but in this case I just used a less-common version of the name. - Todd VerBeek 12:56, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Can I mark an article as Guide?[edit]

I've made considerable changes to the article titled Kanyakumari. I've changed the article status to a guide article from a stub. Is it ok or will it necessitate a review? Please respond on my talk page. Mugunth Kumar 02:54, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Jeffreys Bay[edit]

Thanks for adding that tag, I always forget about doing it, even when I vfd an article. Will have to put a reminder for myself somewhere. --NJR_ZA 03:30, 4 May 2007 (EDT)

Cloudcroft[edit]

That's about 250 miles from where I live, and I've only passed through, so can't speak to the article with any authority. Nothing remaining looks completely crazy, however. The author obviously lifted from the Las Cruces article for formatting purposes -- Las Cruces is the second largest town in the state, NMSU is there (my son's a student there), and so on -- and failed to remove the LC-specific stuff. So I don't think he's being a wise guy, just careless. I'll check some things when my current wide-band interruption ends -- thanks. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:23, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Welcome Wagon[edit]

Nice work on welcoming a new crop of users! Maj 09:14, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

Icons[edit]

Would you be able to improve those icons? Also, what's your thoughts about the current look? Should there be icons or should they be removed? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 18:48, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Talk:USNP revert[edit]

Just FYI, I reverted your deletion of the "Lessons for Mexican National Parks" section of Talk:United States National Parks, at least for the time being. That discussion is (or at least I intended it to be) as much to stimulate some thinking about our usual what-is-an-article question, in the context of all national parks, as it is about specific aid to the Mexican parks. Eventually the same issues will have to be dealt with for other national park systems as well, and keeping the discussion here might maximize the chance of knowledgeable people seeing it. BTW, thanks for getting the Mexican National Parks article started. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 12:13, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Welcome changes[edit]

I had meant to tell you about the changes, especially since I too was annoyed by some changes. Also, since you've been personalizing a lot of messages I figured you'd want to know, but before I told you I got off at the exit of inaction. Sorry. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 20:45, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Quick Question about user accounts[edit]

Hi Todd! Thanks for the welcome, it's great that you give such personalized welcome messages! Anyway, I have a quick question. I created an account with the user name MandarinManMark, but decided that the one I'm using now would be much better. Is there a way to delete my other account, or should it just let it sit there unused? I wasn't sure who to ask the question to, so I though I'd just bug you about it :)

Thanks! - Mark

PS - I love the Wikitravel project, so thanks for all of the work you've did! I'll be doing my part adding content and looking out for inappropriate content/changes!

Yucatan[edit]

Thank you for reformating the Yucatan Page. I have been trying to come up with something that would make that page look proper. It is one of my favorite places in the world and I am trying to do it justice. I regret not taking better photo's at the time, but really never expected to share them in this manner. The majority of photo's I submit are scans taken before 2005, likely someone will have a better image later. 2old 15:50, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Contact[edit]

Hello Todd,

This is Ryan from Internet Brands. I know we haven't really interacted, but I have been monitoring Wikitravel for several months now, during which time I've been in touch with Evan and Michele, and I felt it was time for a proper introduction. I would like to get your thoughts on something I'm working on, so please shoot me an email at rfujitani@internetbrands.com so that I can give you more details about it. I look forward to hearing from you soon, and keep up the good work! - Pastrami on Ry 17:59, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Reply sent by e-mail. -Todd VerBeek 10:05, 18 May 2007 (EDT)
So what did Mr Pastrami want? – cacahuate talk 02:25, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Universal edit button[edit]

interestingcacahuate talk 02:24, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

And another dumb question.[edit]

I enjoy browsing Wikitravel - it has changed my priorities of places to travel (almost daily). You seem to be the fellow to ask this question. I have thought of several topics I think would be of interest to visitors to the USA. 1. Surfboards - for Hawaii 2. Car shows-swap meets. I do not think I could write either topic, but might be good for inclusion. I saw places to request "Articles, but not "topics". By the way you are very good at tweaking photo's and I do not mind a bit - see if you can help the ones at Key West Cemetaries mmm, they are "hidden". 2old 12:22, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

  • Part two: Topic-shipping items back from: Mexico-USA-wherever. Most guides do not address this, but it is always a problem when deciding what to buy. I have passed on some real treasures, too big for luggage. 2old 15:32, 23 May 2007 (EDT) again.
    • You are one heck of a "tweaker". Thank you for the help with photo's. I have a gallon ziplock bag of my favorites, that I have not found yet. Must have been my medication. 2old 14:30, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

wwu.edu[edit]

So the new thing in wiki spam seems to be to find an open university system and then throw a trojan on it to redirect to porn sites. We've had dozens of these at all sorts of schools for the past few months, and rather than blacklist the school's entire domain we usually just blacklist the subdomain in question. Hopefully there's no offense taken by my modification of your addition of wwu.edu - not all of the Western Washington kids can be bad. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:25, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

aligning right[edit]

So after thinking outside the box I finally figured out how it'd be possible to add the "click here for a NOAA forecast" link to the Template:ClimateFahrenheit. I then realized how to left align the first cell in each row (which I'll revert if you have a problem with it), but still keeping the data right aligned. Would you take a look at Cincinnati#Climate and tell me your thoughts? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 08:25, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Bumpity bump? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 00:28, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

New Zealand[edit]

is included in your travel plans, I see. Send me an e-mail before you come to the South Island and my numerous relatives will fix you up...Gaimhreadhan (kiwiexile at DMOZ) • 16:46, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Star nomination[edit]

Care to comment before Ann Arbor is starred? – cacahuate talk 22:47, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

Apologies![edit]

Sorry about that, just trying to be helpful ;) --Peterfitzgerald Talk 00:02, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks[edit]

Thanks for smoothing out the image. I think I added it just after I discovered WT, and really should have done something to enhance it myself. Anyway, I appreciate your efforts. WindHorse 10:51, 1 June 2007 (EDT)

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