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User talk:NJR ZA/Archive

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November 2006[edit]


Some great contributions! — Ravikiran 11:13, 11 November 2006 (EST)

Thanks, still a lot of work to be done down here, especially on my favorite place, Jeffreys_Bay, but it will get there in time :)
-- Nick Roux 13:10, 11 November 2006 (EST)

Welcome and wiki markup[edit]

I see no one has properly welcome you so here's the standard welcome:


Welcome to Wikitravel. You can edit your preferences to change how the software works for you. Please take a second to look at our copyleft and policies and guidelines, but feel free to plunge forward and edit some pages. Scanning the Manual of style, especially the article templates, can give you a good idea of how we like articles formatted. If you're new to our wiki software, MediaWiki, look at the Wiki markup to get an idea of how to edit a page. If you need help, check out the help desk, and if you need some info not on there, post a message in the travellers' pub.

I've also noticed that you're somewhat new to wikis so I want to recommend that you use colons (:) when replying to people because this will indent your comments. For example:


Thanks for all the great work on Appleton, New York! -- ~~~~

:Thanks a lot, but I'm not finished yet! -- ~~~~

::Well thanks for turning it into a better guide! -- ~~~~

That will show up like this (notice the indentation):


Thanks for all the great work on Appleton, New York! -- Sapphire 12:30, 11 November 2006 (EST)

Thanks a lot, but I'm not finished yet! -- Sapphire 12:30, 11 November 2006 (EST)
Well thanks for turning it into a better guide! -- Sapphire 12:30, 11 November 2006 (EST)

Lastly, when you leave comments for someone always sign your name by typing four tildes (~) like this: ~~~~. This will leave your signature and a time stamp like this: -- Sapphire 12:30, 11 November 2006 (EST)

Thanks for the welcome and the tips. I'm still finding my way around, but I'm generally a fast learner so things will get better and easier as we go along
-- Nick Roux 13:08, 11 November 2006 (EST)


Hi Nick, I started a district section on the Jo'burg page, and have listed Soweto under Region six. However, I'm not sure that these politically designated districts are the best way to divide up the city in terms of providing info for visitors. So, please feel free to change as you feel appropriate. Thanks. WindHorse 10:51, 12 November 2006 (EST)

I also don't think the administrative regions are the best way to divide the city from a traveler's point of view. I think Soweto deserves a page of it's own as it is very big and cultural tourism is growing in that area. It might be better to break it up into six: Central, Northern and Southern Johannesburg, West Rand, East Rand and Soweto.
Let's leave it as you have broken it up for now, but also leave the option open to change it later. Maybe add an entry on the discussion page for people to comment of how they would like to see it broken up.
- Nick Roux 11:02, 12 November 2006 (EST)
OK, I'll move this discussion to the Johannesburg Talk page. WindHorse 11:13, 12 November 2006 (EST)
OK. While we are on the subject of Johannesburg. The "Mrs Franky Toussaint" entry under ==Do== smells like spam. I can not find any other reference to them on the internet and would like to remove it and replace with some real tour operators, but would like a second oppinion before just deleting it. - Nick Roux 11:21, 12 November 2006 (EST)

South African phone numbers[edit]

You left this message on my talk page. My answer is below WindHorse 06:30, 13 November 2006 (EST)

I notice that you have changed the phone numbers for Soweto. Note that South Africa is changing to manditory 10 digit dialing. +27 11 123 4567 will be a valid number when phoning for outside South Africa, but internal call will require you to dial 011 123 4567, even when in the same city. Dialing just 123 4567 still works at the moment, but will not work after 16 January 2007. See this notice from Telkom for deta

Thanks for the feedback. According to wikitaravel policy, all numbers are written as they would be dialled internationally. You can find this policy and example of style on this page: Wikitravel:Phone numbers. WindHorse 06:30, 13 November 2006 (EST)
Ah,ok. I missed that somehow. What do we do in the even that an additional digit is required to dial locally as is the case with the 0 in South Africa? Do we just leave it out completely?
If the digit is required to dial local numbers, then I would say that it is part of the greater number and should be included into the non-italics section - I am assuming, however, that it is not dropped when calling internationally. Anyway, all policies are flexible, but as a rule of thumb in this case, place any digit that is used when dialling locally in the non-italics section, while put in italics any numbers that are only used with overseas calls. Is that workable with this system? WindHorse 10:52, 13 November 2006 (EST)
Unfortunately a digit required for local calls is dropped when calling international, i.e. a local call 011 123-4567 will be dialed internationally as +27 11 123-4567, the 0 is dropped. I've used the format +27 (0)11 123-4567 with the brackets to indicate that the 0 is sometimes optional, unfortunately it does not indicate if it is optional for local or for international calls. If there is a better solution let me know and I will retrofit all the South African numbers. Thanks for all your feedback. - Nick Roux 12:04, 13 November 2006 (EST)

World Cup 2010[edit]


Fantastic work with Wikitravel! You've made alot of really good edits - we really appreciate your help! Also I see you beat me to the World Cup 2010 map! I have been meaning to do that one for a long long time.

I noticed that in the World Cup 2010 page that you have been adding a load of information about clubs etc. Basically we're trying to keep it a travel guide, so whilst it's okay putting a bit of information like that on here, we don't want to go too far down that route! For an idea of what should be in a Sports event page, check out World Cup 2006 - we basically need to fill out all the sections that I put in earlier on with practical info like good places to visit/stay whilst your there etc etc. -- Tim 12:24, 14 November 2006 (EST)

OK, the 2006 page is a nice example. I'll reformat a bit. -- Nick Roux 12:37, 14 November 2006 (EST)

Kruger National Park[edit]


I noticed you put contact numbers next to the camp listings in the KNP article. I think the best place for putting all the nitty gritty details like that should be in the actual camp pages. There's not much of a precedent for doing things this way on Wikitravel, because KNP is (as far as I am aware) the most developed of the safari park guides we have on Wikitravel, but I was treating the camps as districts but with small city templates... On the KNP article I think that all we really need next to the list of camps is a brief sentence on the kind of accomodation and facilities available and maybe a bit on what animals to see there and maybe if there's an amazing bush walk on offer there then that as well. It should stay brief and anyone who is interested can go to the camp page and get all the info they would need there.

I reverted the edit where you put the phone numbers next to all the camps, but I added back in all the other changes you made in that edit.

As for Camps in the Kruger National Park I didn't even notice that was there when I was blitzing the KNP article (which I never really finished!) It's definitely duplicated info and the fact that I didn't even realise it was there whilst I was going through and editting the KNP article means that it probably wouldn't be found by anyone casually using Wikitravel. I'd vfd it, but before that we could do with getting any info that's not on Kruger National Park or the various camp pages transferred.

Let me know what you think! -- Tim 16:37, 30 November 2006 (EST)

I think you are right. KNP is quite a big beast and it is probably best to keep detail on each camp's own page. I'll do some work on those camp pages, but probably only next year and after I've updated Jeffrey's Bay and surrounds. I'll be down there for the holidays two weeks from now. As for Camps in the Kruger National Park, there is not really any detail there that we can not get from SANParks site. -- Nick 17:49, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Okay, I'll vfd it now then. For future reference, if you want to reply to people's posts on your talk page, its usually best to write a reply on their talk page and give it a title that links to the original post (in this case, [[User_talk:NJR_ZA#Kruger National Park]] ) - that way people will definately notice that you've responded and thus the dialogue continues! (Good work on that map! You seem to be working through the list of maps that I want to do with the SA World Cup one as well!) -- Tim 18:45, 30 November 2006 (EST)

December 2006[edit]


I wanted to point out that Wikitravel doesn't believe in Wikipedia's NPOV philosophy, because Wikitravel is not an encyclopedia. Wikitravel, as a travel guide, has a POV and that's the traveller's POV. For the most part Lonely Planet has the same POV that we do and if a spade is a spade then we call it a spade. I'm not saying Lonely Planet is not always right, but Robertson is a dull town then we need to say so or at the very least be honest and say something along the lines of 'Robertson isn't an interesting town, but may be worth an hour's visit or two.' I guess it comes down to this - we sometimes want to make something NPOV, but we shouldn't, because we're trying to be useful and if a travel guide is unbiased then it, well, sucks. -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 15:52, 1 December 2006 (EST)

I saw your comments and I think that's fine. I always prefering giving honest reviews, because sometimes when I'm travelling I think: 'Now, why couldn't they just tell me there were only two buildings in this town and absolutely nothing to do!' Anyhow, thanks for your contributions! -- Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:02, 1 December 2006 (EST)

Mozambique - what region???[edit]

Hey there Nick, I also agree you do some nice work! I'm working on Mozambique these days, and noticed that on the Southern Africa page (and the map you made) it's included in that region, and on the main Africa page it's included in East Africa. Personally I vote for East Africa (but not very loudly), but one way or another it should be consistent... I'm not a map maker, can you maybe fix your map (or the other one if you disagree with me). Thanks! P.S... what app do you use for mapmaking, I've been traveling for quite some time now but will be home in a couple months and want to start getting my fingers into that... Cacahuate 09:54, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Hi there. Most South African's will consider Mozambique as past of Southern Africa, but opinions might differ for people outside the region. Have a look at the wikipedia entry on Southern Africa, they have a short discussion on why it is sometimes included in Southern Africa and sometimes in Eastern Africa. The best thing to do would probably be to raise the question on the Mozambique discussion page and get a concise from a couple of people. Once we have a decision and I'm back home in Johannesburg again, I'll happily change the maps.
For mapmaking I'm using Inkscape at the moment, mostly on linux, but it works just as well under windows.
I'm on holiday in Jeffreys Bay at the moment and won't be online very often, but I do check emails and wikitravel every other day or so.
NJR_ZA 11:24, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Done - Talk:Mozambique#Southern_or_Eastern.3F - we'll see what happens  :) Happy surfing! (I'm assuming) Cacahuate 13:33, 20 December 2006 (EST)

January 2007[edit]


So, first of all, once again thanks for the awesome job you're doing on Wikitravel. I'm concerned about the way you're using Wikitravel:Listings for activities like skydiving. Can we discuss this on Wikitravel talk:Attraction listings? I think there are some alternatives. --10:29, 12 January 2007 (EST)

Hiking in South Africa[edit]

Hiker that I am, I've been watching your development of this article with interest, and I think it may be a good candidate for testing our incipient cooperation with WikiOutdoors. I think they're having a bit of a hard time getting off the ground; developing some articles there out of what you've done here would be a service to both Wikis and their readers. Check the place out and see what makes sense. (Note that their CC-by-SA license is such that images uploaded here should be transparently usable there, but not vice versa.) I personally would very much like to see such development, as South Africa is on my want-to-visit-before-I-die list. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 21:04, 19 January 2007 (EST)

I second Bill-on-the-Hill's feedback on this article. It's great! If you have any interest in writing more detailed information about hiking trails, we'd love your help on WikiOutdoors. And, I'd welcome any feedback on how to make the cooperation with Wikitravel even better. Kirasw 23:48, 9 February 2007 (EST)
OK, lets see what we can do. -- NJR_ZA 01:49, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Good job, yet again[edit]

You're still doing great! It's great to see someone working so hard on maps, since it's such a needed part of WT that's often missing... I'll be following your lead soon when I get back home to a laptop! ::: Cacahuate 10:04, 20 January 2007 (EST)

Inkscape takes some getting used to, but one you have done the first map it gets easier. I normally use the GIMP to do any post processing if required, like adding combining two maps as with Western_Cape NJR_ZA 06:09, 21 January 2007 (EST)


You've done some great work around here, so I'm wondering if you'd be interested in getting a few extra buttons. The difference between admins and normal users is fairly small - the distinction is basically that you've proven that you can be trusted with the delete and ban buttons, and that you understand how things work around here fairly well. If you'd be interested please let me know, and I'll be happy to nominate you. -- Ryan 14:42, 21 January 2007 (EST)

Ryan, thanks for the offer, but I'd rather not. That will just be more buttons to distract me from working on article content.
I'm enjoying working on wikitravel as I do now, it's an escape from responsibilities and politics and having to make decisions. At the same time I am learning a lot and finding places that I will just have to go visit. For now, I'd rather just stay a grunt and get some articles sorted. NJR_ZA 15:06, 21 January 2007 (EST)
Fair enough - the buttons are shiny and pretty, so I can understand the fear of distraction :) Should you ever re-consider please let me know! -- Ryan 15:16, 21 January 2007 (EST)
I was thinking the same thing. You would make a great admin and if you reconsider, you have a vote from me also. Thank you for all your good work. I really enjoy your posts. -- Tom Holland (xltel) 15:21, 21 January 2007 (EST)
Me three. --Evan 19:42, 21 January 2007 (EST)
Me four! -- Tim 13:28, 22 January 2007 (EST)
Might you have reconsidered this recently? I see that you've been helping deal with the latest round of vandals, which is much appreciated, and believe me, it's far easier to do that if you have those magic buttons. Maybe power corrupts, but personally, I don't think I'm any more corrupt than before I had them available :-), and they really do help you be a Good Guy. (It also helps the rest of us admins: admins' changes are "autopatrolled," so that it reduces the amount of stuff the rest of us have to wade through to find and deal with the vandals.) If you've changed your mind, we'll get a nomination going. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 16:13, 10 February 2007 (EST)
Is this what they call peer pressure? But you are right, it will probably save the existing admins quite a bit of work and make it easier for me to revert those vandalism when I see it. I've been around for a while now, so I should prove to be more useful than a risk. You can go ahead and nominate me. -- NJR_ZA 00:22, 11 February 2007 (EST)

It is partially done. See Wikitravel:Administrator nominations#User:NJR ZA and give us your official acceptance. -- Sapphire 00:34, 11 February 2007 (EST)

Cleanup of Cape Town[edit]

Just letting you know I reverted the edit on Talk:Cape Town where you deleted the reasons you did a clean up, because (even though its done) it could be useful for future editors to see the reasons why you cleaned up the article and what you thought should be there. I added a little note to say that on the page. Cape Town can't be far off star level at the moment - it could do with a bit more info on certain listings, and it could also do with a map, if you're up for doing one! Might nominate it for DotM if it hasn't already been that. -- Tim 13:28, 22 January 2007 (EST)

  • Scrap the DotM idea - it has already been DotM in September 05, which is pretty annoying because it's a lot better now than it was then. -- Tim 13:31, 22 January 2007 (EST)
I'm happy to do the maps (Cape Town will need two, inner city as well as one including the peninsula and surrounds), but not just yet. Maps are time consuming and I'd rather get the article info complete first, that way I can get the map annotations correct and complete first time round. NJR_ZA 13:50, 22 January 2007 (EST)
Make that 3 maps. We will need the metrorail network as well. I always forget about metrorail as it is not really something one want to use up here in Jo'burg, but in Cape Town it is a viable means of transport. NJR_ZA 13:54, 22 January 2007 (EST)

February 2007[edit]

Zimbabwe rollback[edit]

Sorry, I reverted to the wrong version; it's supposed to be "Other destinations" with a small d. Jpatokal 00:03, 6 February 2007 (EST)


Thank you for your message. O.K. Now I can understand what you want concerning the Shared:Category:Südafrika. I have no intention to disturb your work any more (please go ahead). But after your work will have completed, would you please delete that unusable category (or perhaps I can do for you if you will tell me)?--Shoestring 07:30, 7 February 2007 (EST)

No problem, I'll clean it all up as soon as we are done.

Thank you[edit]

Just saw your articles on WikiOutdoors. Thanks for contributing and please do let us know how we can improve the experience. We're trying hard to make it easy for folks to share their knowledge about the outdoors. Happy hiking this weekend! Kirasw 12:38, 10 February 2007 (EST)

I'll see how it works out. I'm probably not the best person to be creating the articles on wikiOutdoors as it's been a while since I have done any serious hiking, but I'll add what I can and I'll put crosslinks in place.


Did you find the template was easy enough to use? The biggest problem I see is finding information to fill the values out with. Though you may be able to find something on NOAA. Did you notice any problems or whatnot? -- Sapphire 08:00, 16 February 2007 (EST)

No problem using it, it's simple enough. Weather Services around the world usually keep records and compile climate averages; I'll be using data from the South African Weather Service for most South African articles. Coastal water temperature might be more difficult to find, but I'm sure there are some stats available from thermal satellite imaging or offshore sensors. Any specific reason why you used cm as the unit for rainfall? I think it is generally measured in mm. -- NJR_ZA
I used centimeters to give us poor saps a chance. I don't know about other Americans, but I relate to centimeters easier than millimeters. Should it be reverted? -- Sapphire 14:39, 16 February 2007 (EST)
I think mm will look better as we will then not need the decimal point and it seems to be the norm for rainfall measurement. -- NJR_ZA 15:27, 16 February 2007 (EST)
Also, I looked at the SAWS website and there's a copyright notice on the bottom of the page. Is it legally possible to use that information? -- Sapphire 14:46, 16 February 2007 (EST)
I missed that copyright notice. I'm going to send SAWS an email regarding copyright on the climate stats, it used to be freely available (some of it is collected by volunteer observers), but I can't keep up with all the changes in South Africa so I'll rather double check. SAWS is funded by public money and there should be an act describing access to the data, I'll see if I can find that as well. -- NJR_ZA 15:27, 16 February 2007 (EST)

NP maps[edit]

Yosemite map - stage two

Hey there Nick! It seems like we're maybe heading in the direction of needing WT style maps for National Parks to be promoted to Star Status... Yosemite National Park is already at Star, but has an NPS map... just wondering if you have a little time you might be able to WTify it... it doesn't look like a horribly complicated one, and will possibly save the page from being destarred... since you're once of the current mapmasters and all - Cacahuate 03:18, 18 February 2007 (EST)

I'll have a look; NPS does provide GIS data for all their parks so it should be doable. I would really not like to see Yosemite loosing it's star status, even if it is for the right reasons. I've started working on a maps for Zion already, but the GIS road data is rather big and grinds Inkscape to a crawl. Yosemite looks a lot simpler so I'll grab the data and see if we can convert it before the article is demoted. --NJR_ZA 09:54, 18 February 2007 (EST)

Got the initial map ready for Yosemite, tomorrow I'll add the trails, camps and additional annotation and it should be at least as good as the NPS map. Then we can start looking at what is missing and how we can improve it. This one was done by hand, I'm still looking for tools that can do a good job converting those NPS shapefiles to SVG that Inkscape can use. --NJR_ZA 15:39, 18 February 2007 (EST)

You're amazing! I should have a laptop in the next month or so, then I hope to be able to help you out! - Cacahuate 16:12, 18 February 2007 (EST)
This is great - I hate asking you to do even more work, but any additional information that can be provided on Wikitravel:How to draw a map would be a huge help to others who want to make maps. I'm generally terrible with anything requiring aesthetics, but given step-by-step instructions I suspect that even I could create a decent map, meaning that others can probably create amazing work given proper instruction. If you're willing and just want to do a quick brain dump feel free to spew forth on Wikitravel talk:How to draw a map and I'll take a stab at formatting your notes into something with more general usefulness. -- Ryan 17:08, 18 February 2007 (EST)
I'll do that during the next week. I use Wikitravel:How to draw a map myself, but it is bit hard to follow at the moment. I always have to search to find the correct colors to use. A more step-by-step howto will work better. --NJR_ZA 23:53, 18 February 2007 (EST)

That's an awesome map -- thank you! A few suggestions: it's "June Lake" not Lakes. If it doesn't clutter the map too much, El Portal is located on 140 immediately outside the Park border. The winter closure of 120 should be located about between two-thirds of the distance from the Park border to 395 (so closer to 395 than the Park). Cheers! -- Colin 15:56, 19 February 2007 (EST)

Fixed, thanks. --NJR_ZA 00:19, 20 February 2007 (EST)

King of Maps[edit]

For intrepid contributions of cartographic knowledge.

You've done an awesome job with your maps, but given the "give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach him to fish you feed him for a lifetime" principle, I daresay your work on Wikitravel:How to draw a map is even better. I suspect that by the time you're finished even someone as Inkscape-challenged as myself could draw a map, so following the Wikitravel tradition of rewarding hard work with virtual stickers, here's a barnstar for you. Cheers, and thanks! -- Ryan 02:27, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Not the king, just building on the work that others have already done. Without the existing Wikitravel:How to draw a map I would never have started drawing maps.
It's like most things in life. Before you attempt it,it looks very difficult; once you have tried it, it looks a lot easier. Wikitravel:How to draw a map still need quite a lot of work. The map template is not quite good enough yet, we need an example map and some of the information that is in the talk page should be decided on and taken into the article. The easier we make it for users to start mapmaking, the more maps we will see.
Thanks for the star :) --NJR_ZA 02:48, 21 February 2007 (EST)
I second that... Whether it's perfect yet or not, you and a handful of other users are paving the way, and hopefully soon maps won't be such an issue... keep up the good work! - Cacahuate 03:04, 21 February 2007 (EST)
I third that. :) I just looked at the How to draw a map page, and it is way more detailed and helpful than before! PerryPlanet 19:44, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Zion Map[edit]

Great job on the Zion maps! They are really well done. But I wanted to point out something on your Zion Canyon map. I know its just an initial map and it's not finished, but you're missing the Weeping Rock shuttle stop. That's a big attraction, so be sure not to miss it.

Also, the black/grey dot that represents Springdale, I know it's normal to use that for towns, but I think it might be a little unnecessary to use it for such a close-up map, and I think it looks just a little obstructive.

But other than that, they're fantastic! I look forward to seeing the finished map! PerryPlanet 17:27, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Thanks for the feedback, I'll wait till tomorrow and see what other feedback I receive, then I'll fix it all up at once. --NJR_ZA 17:29, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Related page[edit]

I restored the template that was deleted in the upgrade. The "Related pages" section should now display correctly. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 16:00, 23 February 2007 (EST)

Still broken at the moment. --NJR_ZA 14:12, 24 February 2007 (EST)
Ah, it works :) Thanks! --NJR_ZA 15:00, 24 February 2007 (EST)

Re: Carlow map[edit]

Hey there! I started the map before I noticed the template, and I was wondering how to go about including items and symbols on it. I was delighted when I noticed the template, and found it very easy to use. The only thing that was noticably absent was a Police (Garda) Station symbol, and when I deleted the template from the file first time round, it also deleted all the icons on the map. I didn't notice this and saved the file, meaning I had to put all the symbols back in again, but that's a problem with the program I'd imagine, not sure if there's anything that can be improved on there. Otherwise, it was handy enough and made the job much easier than it would have been, so thanks a mil! Alan1989 20:21, 23 February 2007 (EST)

Awesome, glad to see it's catching on quickly! Can't wait to use it myself... soon soon... - Cacahuate 13:57, 24 February 2007 (EST)
When copying symbols from the spare parts layer you should paste them onto a different layer, annotation in most cases, else they will be deleted if you delete the spare parts layer. Thanks for letting me know that happened to you, I'll work that info into Wikitravel:How to draw a map --NJR_ZA 14:16, 24 February 2007 (EST)

March 2007[edit]


Hey man.....Thanx. Sorry only saying hi now but took me this long to figure out how to do it.

Yeah, I was in the Stander movie. Played his lawyer in court.....(but ended up on the editing floor.)

Speak soon.


Hi, I'm jus' curious...[edit]

This isn't related to any particular article, I just want to know something. You mentioned something about a country with 11 official languages on Andrew (Sapphire) 's talk page. Were you refering to South Africa, your home country? I never realized that it had 11 official languages. Could you just post a list of all 11 on my talk page [1] if this is the case. I'm kinda interested in linguistics. Thanks Upamanyuwikitravel 09:12, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Cool. I myself come from a country with 16. How many of them do you speak? Upamanyuwikitravel 00:03, 4 March 2007 (EST)
I'm not much of a linguist. I commonly use English and Afrikaans, but can understand some Zulu, Xhosa, Fanagalo, Portuguese, German and Dutch.

Kuwait - Mistake[edit]

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to lose the Eat section! I only meant to lose the word pervert I must have done a full revert! Sorry :S --MiddleEastern 17:07, 5 March 2007 (EST)

No problem, I've restored it. --NJR_ZA 17:12, 5 March 2007 (EST)


Hey, I've just about given up on creating a map for my hometown, the lovely Cincinnati, could I ask that if I give you a satellite image of the downtown area that you get the streets and everything laid out? If you send it back to me I can fill in all the sights/do/eat stuff. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 03:06, 6 March 2007 (EST)

Sure, we can do that. You will just have to give me a couple of days to get it all laid out. --NJR_ZA 03:49, 6 March 2007 (EST)
Actually, don't bother with the sat images. I can work of the maps provided at [2] --NJR_ZA 04:59, 6 March 2007 (EST)
Alright, well, I'm nearly finished with getting the basics finished up, but I have a problem.... Anytime I delete the "spare parts" box it causes the names of the streets to format incorrectly. I'll upload it to Image:Cincinnati map.svg on en: and I'd appreciate if you could take a look. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 19:50, 6 March 2007 (EST)
OK, got it. I'll give you feedback shortly --NJR_ZA 01:08, 7 March 2007 (EST)

The image which was givin' trouble[edit]

Thnks for helping out (Sacred sites of India is what I'm referring to). With regard to images and other links, when do I need to use a space ( ) and when should I use an underscore(__) ?? Any idea... Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 08:41, 8 March 2007 (EST)

You are only required to use an underscore when the original filename has one in the name. If the name really contains a space, then you can use a space. The real problem with this one was that you used .GIF, rather than .gif. The wiki is case sensitive for filenames.
The only place I know off where an (_) is required in place of a ( ), is when using the isIn template, but it's best to avoid even that and rather use isPartOf as it can handle spaces correctly. --NJR_ZA 08:48, 8 March 2007 (EST)
How does the isPartOf template work? {{isPartOf|South Africa}}?? Anyway, thanks for explaining about the capitals. Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 08:58, 8 March 2007 (EST)
Yes, {{isPartOf|South Africa}} is correct. --NJR_ZA 09:50, 8 March 2007 (EST)
Got it. Dankie! Upamanyuwikitravel( Talk )( Travel ) • 11:39, 8 March 2007 (EST)


Otheruses is not used for articles named Foo (Region). It's only used on articles named Foo which are not disambiguation pages. See Wikitravel:Article naming conventions. And thanks for all your hard work! -- Colin 00:02, 9 March 2007 (EST)

Oh damn, I missed that. Thanks for letting me know before I did even more. I'll go back and fix. --NJR_ZA 00:52, 9 March 2007 (EST)
OK, think I got them all. otheruses on all Foo (Region) type articles reverted or removed. --NJR_ZA 01:27, 9 March 2007 (EST)

Suspicious Image VfD here[edit]

Hi, I've sent this image to VfD as it seems to be blatantly from a brochure, any thoughts? Can images like that be speedy deleted instead? --MiddleEastern 11:51, 9 March 2007 (EST)

I think it's fine for it to follow the vfd process. Even if it is a copy vio, the fact that we have identified it and listed it for vfd should be legally acceptable. --NJR_ZA 01:28, 11 March 2007 (EST)
Thanks, no problem --MiddleEastern 07:58, 11 March 2007 (EDT)


If you're going to be on a while will you keep reverting anything that comes from this IP ( or any edits that delete or portions or entire pages? -- Sapphire(Talk) • 02:29, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

Unfortunately I'll going to be off for about 45 minutes shortly. Need to get to work, but I will definitely check when I get there --NJR_ZA 02:31, 19 March 2007 (EDT)

User pages[edit]

We've generally been pretty easy-going and hands-off with regards to user pages, so I've reverted the blanking of User:Property-in-bulgaria. It might be worthwhile to get a conversation going about how to handle advertising on user pages - I don't think any such discussion exists, although I just looked at Wikitravel:User page help. -- Ryan (talk) 12:49, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Pretty major vandalism![edit]

Thanks for helping out- if you keep an eye on pages that are being vandalised and revert them, I'll go through and block the ip adresses that keep on vandalising. -- Tim 11:28, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Weird. That one stopped about as abruptly as it started! -- Tim 11:31, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
Because I added the offending URL to the Wikitravel:Local spam blacklist. That's a better idea when you have spam from multiple IPs. Most probably, those IPs are innocent victims of some email worm. — Ravikiran
Neat way to stop a vandal, especially if it is a bot. --NJR_ZA 11:40, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Post-VFD tidying[edit]

Hey Nick, just a reminder: when you use the shiny new buttons to delete things after Wikitravel:Votes for deletion have run their course, make sure to move the discussion from that article to the archive page. (See Wikitravel:Votes for deletion/Archives and go from there to the appropriate sub-page for the current month.) That'll help the rest of the admins keep track of what has and hasn't been dealt with. Thanks for the help with the VFDs! -- Bill-on-the-Hill 17:21, 30 March 2007 (EDT)

April 2007[edit]


Hey there! Good work (in progress) on the map! FYI, it's Margao, not Margoa...

Also, I just created the North / South divisions so that hopefully we can just get rid of Beaches in Goa, since it's not really going to help us in anyway... Anyhow, if you feel like adding the divisions, here's the WP map - not sure if you'd just want to add the north and south division, or actually put all 11 divisions in... but I leave that you :) – cacahuate talk 21:02, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

I think we can add both the north/south and the talukas to the svg, but only use the north/south when exporting the png. That way the image will match the article, but if we ever decide to use the talukas in the article we can just re-export the png. If you or anyone else that knows Goa can you mark any important see/do places on the existing map (can be roughly done using Microsoft paint ect) then I can add those into the svg as well when I make the region changes. --NJR_ZA 01:13, 19 April 2007 (EDT)
Unforunately I don't! – cacahuate talk 02:06, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

Havelock Island[edit]

Hey there! I finally made my first attempt at a map... your criticism highly encouraged... let me know what I may have done wrong or could do better when you've got a sec. – cacahuate talk 06:37, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Cool, good idea about the symbols layer on the template. Also the default font was set to Bitstream Vera Sans instead of Blue Highway which is why I just stuck with that... do you want to change on your next template fix? I also like the Scale that you used on Kwazulu Natal better... the thinner lines look sleeker and nice. Anyhoo... 1 map down, 85,000 to go... – cacahuate talk 22:43, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Image:Map-USA-Mid Atlantic01.png[edit]

Isn't Long Island in New York? -- Fastestdogever 15:30, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

Erm...yes it is. I'll fix that map. --NJR_ZA 16:06, 28 April 2007 (EDT)


Hey there! I think Uganda should be in East Africa rather than Central... WP agrees, as does the latest contributor who added it to the country list on EA... or do you disagree? – cacahuate talk 03:05, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

May 2007[edit]

Tracing Maps[edit]

Hey Nick, you mentioned a while back that my maps would benefit from reducing the border (line) widths. I have traced a nice svg path for West Virginia#Regions, but the widths are uneven and too wide. Do you know how to reduce path width in Inkscape? --Peterfitzgerald Talk 20:26, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

One more question: I have noticed that on your maps, you have each region represented as an individual object, whereas I just have the one object from my trace consisting of all the borders together. How do you get from the original map-trace object to multiple region objects? Thanks again! --Peterfitzgerald Talk 22:59, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

Aha! I think I've figured out what is giving me trouble. My trace gave me an object comprised of filled paths, rather than stroked paths. So I would have to edit things like path width manually, node by node. How do I get an object with simple stroked paths from a trace? Or can I somehow convert my filled path object to a stroked path object? --Peterfitzgerald Talk 18:55, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean here. Did you use the Path→Trace Bitmap option and ended up with with filled objects for each line rather than just the paths? I don't use that automated trace for exactly that reason, it's more work cleaning up the resulting object than what it would have been to simply manually trace the stuff in the first place. --NJR_ZA 01:05, 3 May 2007 (EDT)
You understood exactly what I meant. I'm sorry to hear that there's no good way to work the automated trace, but I guess I'll just get started with manual traces ;) Thanks again --Peterfitzgerald Talk 02:51, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

Wow! Your Map-Russia03.svg looks really good! Autotrace sounds like it could save a ton of time, especially for such a large trace as Russia. Potrace was really unusable for maps.

Would you do me a favor and look over my first real regions map and let me know if you have any suggestions/criticism. Here is the svg base: WV regions.svg and the output png is on West Virginia. Thanks so much for all your help with this—I think I'm finally getting the hang of vector graphics! --Peterfitzgerald Talk 14:59, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

South (United States) map[edit]

I just caught this since I was translating the map, but you seemed to have included Lake Michigan in the Southern U.S. Would you fix that? I would, but I'm pretty pissed off with my idiocy and Inkscape at the moment. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 17:12, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

Wonder how the heck I managed that. Will fix it right away. --NJR_ZA 17:16, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

Asia map[edit]

Discussion moved to Wikitravel_talk:How_to_draw_a_map#Asia_map

Regionlist Template[edit]

Hi Nick,

I have seen you used the regionlist template in the Africa article. I have been searching for it, but did not find it. Can you please give me a link to it? Cheers --Fluglotse2000 13:30, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

You can find it here. Thanks for putting this together Nick, I'm going to update all the pages I've created region maps for tonight to include your template. --Peterfitzgerald Talk 15:25, 7 May 2007 (EDT)
Thank you very much for the quick reply. Looks really good! Cheers --Fluglotse2000 21:27, 7 May 2007 (EDT)
Nice, looks good! Is it possible for it to wrap around images? On Africa it isn't an issue, but on the US article can it go full-width once it's below the map? And is it possible for it to not show the parentheses when there aren't states listed (California, Alaska). But I think this is great! – cacahuate talk 00:08, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
I don't think it will wrap. I based it on the example that was used for Texas#Regions and that uses a table since ihe table is treated as one object I think it will size the whole table to fit next to the image. The parentheses I cam do something about. it just requires an if statement in Template:Regionlistitem to check if they are required. --NJR_ZA 00:52, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
One other thing that would be nice is a way to specify the map size—the map for Central Russia is showing up a good deal larger than it needs to. Thanks again! --Peterfitzgerald Talk 11:28, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
Cool, good work! Peter, I think the image looks fine on Central Russia... anywhere from 250-400 px I think is appropriate, depending on the map.... – cacahuate talk 01:05, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
Yes, I took care of my problem by just removing the image from the template. One other thing on my mind: is the "<br clear="all" />" necessary? With maps that are vertically rather long (e.g., Urals), the template makes the page unnecessarily long. But this is of course just a cavil ;) --Peterfitzgerald Talk 01:37, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
There is definitely still some issues with this template, but I am currently rather swamped with some work and personal commitments and just don't have the time to attend to it. Things will quiet down again in a couple of days and the I will address the issues raised. There is a couple of things I want to change, but I will do so without changing the interface to the template. That way we will not have to change any of the couple of pages where it has already need used. --NJR_ZA 03:35, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Nice work on the regionlist template, it is a lot more versatile now. I noticed that for United States of America#Regions you used colors that are not strictly html safe. Is this ok to do? If so, that would make my life easier. --Peterfitzgerald Talk 15:26, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

Mount Donna Buang[edit]

Nick, I think you may have been premature in deleting this. Ski resorts are another topic where there are exceptions to the rules as regards "what is an article?", owing to the possibility that the resort itself may be the most significant thing in the vicinity. See, for example, the discussion at Talk:Colorado -- Colorado is a place full of ski resorts, some of which definitely deserve their own articles, while others may not. I'd recommend that this article go through the usual VFD process and garner some comments before a decision is made. I've restored it, and will nominate for VFD. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 10:03, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

Map template[edit]

As a result of a discussion on Wikitravel talk:Copyleft I was wondering if you'd be so kind as to un-license your contributions to Image:Wikitravel-map-template.svg and release it to the public domain? This would make creating maps from templates easier, because as a technicality we'd currently need to attribute you and Jani in any and all maps. Also, did you use any other works from other authors from whom we'd need to gain permission to release the template into the PD? Thanks. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 23:11, 11 May 2007 (EDT)

I'll reply directly in Wikitravel talk:Copyleft --NJR_ZA 02:00, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Nail salons[edit]

Saw your note about Mountain View (California) - I've responded on Wikitravel talk:Where you can stick it. -- Ryan • (talk) • 11:50, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

Universal Wiki Edit button[edit]

Check out the pub for an interesting proposal... I point it out to you since you're design savvy and may be able to contribute over there – cacahuate talk 15:28, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

New Map[edit]

Hey Nick, I just made my first city map, using your new symbols. Would you mind taking a look at it to make sure I haven't made any missteps. Also, I would like to put in some internet cafes, but am not sure where to stick those on a city map. --Peterfitzgerald Talk 20:35, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Austin Map[edit]

Good stuff, but will do very little for the average traveler. I guess Texas cities are different, but nobody stays down town. In fact, I rarely go to a "down town" unless the town is tiny. Sure I should do it myself, but I don't have time for it, just to ramble. :) Jordanmills 16:40, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

June 2007[edit]

CotW unscheduled nominations are getting a bit thin![edit]

We could do with a few more suggestions for articles that could be future CotWs, so if you know of any please be sure to add them to the list! Thanks -- Tim (writeme!) 07:53, 4 June 2007 (EDT)


Thanks so much for adding the Brass Rail to the Allentown article. However, do note this from the page on "how to edit a page"|:

what makes your changes "minor" -- usually, spelling corrections, grammar, or formatting changes are "minor", and changes to the real information on a page are not. Jsharpminor 11:47, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

Destination of the month[edit]

Greetings I have made a proposal on Wikitravel:Destination of the Month candidates for changing the time slot for featuring Rietvlei Nature Reserve as OTBP. Could you take a look and offer some comments. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it WindHorse 12:03, 14 June 2007 (EDT)

I appreciate your feedback regarding the dates for featuring Rietvlei Nature Reserve as OtBP destination of the month. Your reply makes arranging the Fall schedule much simpler. Thanks. WindHorse 23:36, 16 June 2007 (EDT)


Would you tell me (and help me) about/with any problems regarding Wikitravel:Star nominations#Cincinnati. -- Sapphire(Talk) • 14:38, 16 June 2007 (EDT)


See proposed icons in the title bar discussion... Ryan may want some help designing some iconic icons if you've got a little time – cacahuate talk 03:04, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

Template talk:Star-iconcacahuate talk 03:08, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

July 2007[edit]

Seven new wonders[edit]

Thanks for adding the new list to the front page, but it should be the Taj Mahal in Agra, India. The page is locked, and so I cannot add the info myself. Could you do the honors. Thanks. WindHorse 04:37, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

Done – cacahuate talk 04:41, 8 July 2007 (EDT)
Thanks Cacahuate. --NJR_ZA 04:58, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

Trans-Kalahari Highway[edit]

This article has been entered for deletion Wikitravel:Votes for deletion#July 2007. As the South African expert, your input would be appreciated. Thanks. WindHorse 21:00, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

NJR ZA[edit]

Hello my name is ALexandra from Greece and I was hopeing if you could edit my portugal brazil and us pages thank you. --Alexandra 19:20, 14 July 2007 (EDT)

need help.[edit]

with jericho, ky --Wainwright 12:11, 15 July 2007 (EDT)

August 2007[edit]


... for resolving the redirects I've overlooked... There was a special page with a listing of double redirects but unfortunately I cannot find it any more!? --Flip666 writeme! • 14:25, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

isin -> ispartof[edit]

I noticed you changed one of my IsIn adds to IsPartOf. Is there policy on this yet or is it your preference? When I try to chase down the answer, I find dead ends that basically yield no answer as to which to use and I end up feeling like Cacahuate... that IsIn is just easier to type in. Seems like concensus was toward making both work. OldPine 16:00, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

Oops, I usually check for that. Must have slipped by me, thanks. OldPine 16:14, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

Thanks again...[edit]

... for your contributions to User:Flip666/offroad driving. Would be great if you could keep an eye on it, correcting my grammar and things that might not be wrong but sound weird to a native speaker! --Flip666 writeme! • 17:27, 15 August 2007 (EDT)

October 2007[edit]

WT "master"[edit]

Kudos on your incredible restraint. Frankly, I don't understand why we suffer these fools at all. OldPine 10:56, 7 October 2007 (EDT)

Just a note to say that the block on WTM seems fine, IMHO. Generally the best way to get rid of a troll seems to be boring them to death by ignoring them, but in this case they guy was being so disruptive (moving the main page, adding disruptive welcome messages to new user talk pages) that a block seems like the best approach. -- Ryan • (talk) • 12:36, 7 October 2007 (EDT)
I noticed your summary "old style revert". What does that mean and is there a particularly advantage to using it? -- OldPine 14:56, 7 October 2007 (EDT)
Ah, thanks, Nick. Yours is a better explanation and I now understand. -- OldPine 07:01, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

Meat market picture removed on Port Louis[edit]


I wonder why you removed my picture of the meat market in Port Louis. Can you explain it ? Thanks.

--DeepPurple 13:36, 14 October 2007 (EDT)

OK, I understand that's because there are some people on it. A pity, as it gave a good idea about the market.

--DeepPurple 15:13, 14 October 2007 (EDT)

Gozo cities[edit]

Hi I was very pleased to find a topic about my tiny homeland :).. However I was wondering about Xlendi and Marsalforn, these are summer residence areas, basically deserted during the other three seasons, would that qualify them as cities? And what about Imgarr? It is not even a village, it is only the name of the local harbor and it forms part of the village of Ghajnsielem.

As a Gozitan, born and bred on the island I can confirm that we only have one city here, that of Victoria, or as we refer to it, Rabat, all the other villages are classified as such... With a total population of 28000 people, Gozo could not really have two cities! Even Rabat with it's 6000 inhabitants could scarcely be classified as a city itself, but it is the capital of the island.

Keep up the good work :) --G-girl 16:04, 23 October 2007 (EDT)

November 2007[edit]

Rudythebear 17:10, 21 November 2007 (EST)[edit]

Hi - thanks for the welcome! Stupid question - The Enna page (and others) isn't linked from the Sicily page. I guess we can't link every place from the Country pages, but have you got any suggestions..

LGBT travel VFD[edit]

Thanks. Yours was the well reasoned response to that clown that I was hoping someone would write. I doubt if it'll shut him up, but one can hope...

BTW, see the latest change in Wikitravel talk:Community policies. That guy seems to be using open proxies for this vandalism. Perhaps the necessary policy change isn't about vandalism per se, but rather open-proxy use. Wikipedia has had to bar it, because of exactly the same problem we're having here. I don't fully understand open-proxy issues, so informed opinions would be useful. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 17:56, 25 November 2007 (EST)

December 2007[edit]


Thanks for the Oberndorf disambiguator. Small reminder: it's good to add a reference to such disambiguators to Wikitravel:Links to disambiguating pages‎, to reduce the number of orphaned pages floating around. I've taken the liberty. -- Bill-on-the-Hill 13:52, 11 December 2007 (EST)


Is it possible that Beira Alta, Beira Baixa, & Beira Litoral should be merged into Beiras - and that Beiras doesn't need any sub-regions (for now at least) - ? ~ 03:12, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Calendar of events and festivals[edit]

Did you see Talk:Calendar of events and festivals#Specific / Fixed / Movable - dates merger? ~ 15:55, 24 January 2008 (EST)


The file name seems to cause problems - maybe it should be uploaded again without the \\ prefix? [3] ~ 15:59, 26 January 2008 (EST)

I have no idea who origionally uploaded that one or why it is a problem, but I am planning a vitis to the Strekfontein caves within the next couple of weeks and will get us some new and up to date photos. --Nick 16:09, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Here's the upload: [4]. Have a good trip! ~ 16:13, 26 January 2008 (EST)
Only a 30 minute drive. Went past there today from Maropeng, but did not have enough time for a visit. Have not been there in years so it's about time it gets on my Saturday Outings List --Nick 16:27, 26 January 2008 (EST)

VFD listing[edit]

moved to here from User talk:

Please do not add additional articles under vfd listing you have already created. It makes it very difficult to archive them when doing speedy deletions. Rather list them as new listings at the bottom. --Nick 15:53, 29 January 2008 (EST)

You don't need to archive them, just delete them - see Wikitravel talk:Votes for deletion#Archiving of VFD discussion where the outcome is speedy deletion. ~ 16:01, 29 January 2008 (EST)
That's an opinion, not a policy. It may work for Jpatokal, but I'd prefer anything that was once listed on vfd to be archived when deleted. It makes it easier to keep tabs on what is happening, especially when there are large numbers of vfd nominations such as at the current time. --Nick 16:23, 29 January 2008 (EST)
Please add a comment to that effect to the Wikitravel talk:Votes for deletion#Archiving of VFD discussion where the outcome is speedy deletion discussion - and then it'll eventually get nailed down one way or the other, and then the policy can be clarified. ~ 16:37, 29 January 2008 (EST)


Re your last batch of reverts & speedy deletions - the alleurohotels URL has been added/reverted many times before, and they're ignoring Talk page requests to desist - alleurohotels\.com needs adding to the Blacklist. ~ 08:42, 30 January 2008 (EST)

I'll add that and revert the rest of them later...right now I'm first going to play in the traffic on my daily commute home --Nick 08:49, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Here's the full set from that particular spammer:

  • airporttransferistanbul\.com
  • alleurohotels\.com
  • allistanbultours\.com
  • bilsentravel\.com
  • istanbul\-airport\-service\.com
  • istanbulhotels\.org
  • istanbultourguides\.com
  • tourstravelturkey\.com
  • turkeytouristguides\.com
~ 09:40, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Image:Typical carpet shop in Baku.JPG|[edit]

Why did you remove image? --Nbumbic 06:59, 1 March 2008 (EST)


I actually don't know -- usually pages are just protected indefinitely and unprotected when things cool off. Jpatokal 07:41, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Hello Nick[edit]

How Are You? --Romeoenchanted 03:40, 6 May 2008 (EDT)


User:Mark has a DARCS repository of his extensions to the OSM code here:

And yes, we definitely should pool our resources on this! Jpatokal 09:16, 8 May 2008 (EDT)

Take a look at Wikitravel:How to create a map. Jpatokal 11:12, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Rock on![edit]

Just thought it was time for another well deserved pat on the back. WTG --OldPine 14:10, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Thank you, Nick![edit]

I've lived in and around Hackettstown practically my whole life. I have traveled some in the past, but right now I'm pretty stationary. My brother is traveling all over South America right now. Last year he went all over Africa and the year before that he did Asia and Australia.

I just was bored tonight and decided to add a whole lot of stuff to where I live right now (Hackettstown).

Who knows, maybe the local businesses will do better because somebody will have seen what I wrote.

I have tinkered on Wikipedia in the past, but this Wikitravel is like a whole new territory.

Admin nomination[edit]

Hey, I just nominated User:LtPowers for sysop status. I'd appreciate it if you would comment here. Thanks! --Peter Talk 19:01, 17 August 2008 (EDT)


was that deleted? Travelmeta 13:30, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

Please see Wikitravel:What is an article?, Wikitravel:Don't tout, and shared:Copyleft. --Peter Talk 17:02, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

Template:Regionlist localization[edit]

I've been using your template on the Russian version, and have noticed that the entered "regionmaptext" does not display (see ru:Грузия for an example, if you can figure out what's going on through all the Cyrillic). Is there something I forgot to do when localizing it? Another template that I needed to import? --Peter Talk 14:28, 6 September 2008 (EDT)


Gets me around psych-travelling and learning about places. Really one of the great things about Wikitravel--especially for those like me that are timid travellers. Some really good articles in that area! OldPine 14:17, 7 September 2008 (EDT)

hi there[edit]

could you take the time or someone else and look at my contributions? ty --RhinestoneRiver 01:17, 16 October 2008 (EDT)



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