From Wikitravel

[edit] Last set of edits

So this last round of edits by an IP address kinda bug me-- lots of changing "most Americans" to "all" and adjusting the tone/point of many sections. I'm almost tempted to rollback or unedit some of it. Can others take a look and tell me what they think? Majnoona 13:19, 26 Mar 2004 (EST)

I just rolled back the edits. I was going through re-adding information that was taken out, and eventually I just realized that it wasn't worth the effort. --Evan 13:58, 26 Mar 2004 (EST)

Mr. 193.231.238.215, it would be appreciated if you could explain why you insist on your version of this article. I am not in a position to judge whether your changes are justified or not, but it seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that you prefer a bowdlerized or politically correct version. Articles in Wikitravel do not need either -- what they need is to reflect reality in the best possible way. Dhum Dhum Akubra 18:01, 26 Mar 2004 (EST)

Mr Akubra: I prefer a version without the "left coast" political slant that seems to permeate the USA page. You say "what they need is to reflect reality in the best possible way" and I agree, but not only the "left coast" distorted reality presented here. Mr. 193.231.238.215

I think what we need to avoid here is the idea that every possible angle of every issue needs to be pointed out. What a travel article should do is alert a traveller to possible issue that may come up. In some cases this means pointing out negative aspects of a destination, but I really don't think the orginal article was in any way unfair-- I mean it was mostly written by Americans (I'm one too). I'd like to invite Mr/Ms 193.231.238.215 to discuss their problems with the article here on the talk page-- or better yet, direct their energy towards other articles than could use their help. I'm also going to rollback the .215 rollback. Majnoona 18:55, 26 Mar 2004 (EST)

The IP address is in Romania. Is this one of the Romanian Wikitravelers who doesn't have an account here? -phma 19:03, 26 Mar 2004 (EST)

193.231.238.215, several people invited you kindly to discuss and explain your views of this article. Until now, you haven't done that. Instead you insist on your version without any explanation. This is not how Wikitravel works and it is not going to get you anywhere. If you have reasons why you think the article should be changed, I advise you to use this talk page to communicate. Dhum Dhum Akubra 07:39, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

Would it make sense to add a note to him like Evan did in http://www.wikitravel.org/en/wiki/wiki.phtml?title=Pittsburgh&diff=0&oldid=17294 ? -Colin 07:52, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

That might do the job of getting his/her attention. I really hope his/her actions are the result of an unfamiliarity with the "wiki way". So, we should explore every option soft security gives us. Dhum Dhum Akubra 08:19, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

Okay, I did that. Hope it works. Colin 17:19, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

Wow, this is kinda new for us I guess. This person is really uncooperative. The latest change comments:

• "(no facts given to backup this statement (environmental...)"
• "(removed amateurish sounding redundency (really, really big))"
• "(should not be advocating illegal actions = abandoning a car)"

Suggest a very, very strong opinion that doesn't really agree with the WikiTravel Way-- I mean, since when do we care if something is illegal? Or need to back things up with stats (actually, I'd hate to see this start). Not jump to conclusions, but is this maybe a Wikipedia person? Things tend to be a little more confrontational over there, and this guy/gal seems to have started off ready for a fight. I'd really like to try all the soft security options anyone can think off... Majnoona 16:13, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

Since when do we care if something is illegal? What a statement... Next are you going to say that if you don't agree with the vegetarian hating cattle State wahoos that you should buy a gun and shoot them (then abandon it)? There is a big difference between making an observation of what people do (illegally abandoning a car) and giving the suggestion that it be done. The compromise of placing "illegally" in the sentence is better though. Mr. 193.231.238.215

OK, So lets try some compromising, OK?

• "(no facts given to backup this statement (environmental...)" The statement is that "Most Americans..." well, I'm an American and I'm concerned with the environment so that means that it is a fact that "Some Americans" are concerned-- how's that?

Look at the sentence: Although some question their busy lifestyle and its effect on the environment, most consider technological progress to be beneficial and inevitable. Some? Who is the writer talking about? Some Americans, some Europeans, some Asians, some cats and dogs...? And worse, before the compromise it said "Many..." If you are talking about Americans then say "Some Americans..." - the sentence is not clear. I also question the reason why an environmental statement like this is even included in a travel website. I realize that the people who have contributed the most to this page (you and Evan) are "left-coasters" and probably have very "liberal views" on the subject, but why not just leave this out? It is politically slanted and doesn't belong here. If you want to say something about pollution in the US then it would be better to cite examples than to make a unsupportable and generalized statement like this. Mr. 193.231.238.215

The point is about American culture, and thus it makes sense to talk about Americans' love of technology and faith in technological progress. Saying "All Americans consider..." would be factually inaccurate. --Evan 03:20, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

I agree. Still it is not clear who is "some". I have edited this passage. Roll it back if you want... Mr. 193.231.238.215

• "(removed amateurish sounding redundency (really, really big))"

Uh, this wasn't "amateurish" (who/what would be "professional?"), but why don't we nix it for the sake of cooperation?

Oh, come on! It reminds me of a statement a brain dead cartoon character would make... weally, weally big... LOL! I am glad you finally removed this because it makes the USA page sound like it was written by a 3rd grader or worse... Mr. 193.231.238.215

• "(should not be advocating illegal actions = abandoning a car)"

Well, mentioning that some people choose to do something illegal is not "advocating," it's informing. So maybe mention that this is illegal and can get you in trouble?

Look at the sentence: Another option for long-distance car travel is to buy a car in the United States, and try to sell it again (or, just abandon it illegally) when leaving. Starting out with "Another option..." makes it seem that you are giving advice which included abandoning a car. This is irresponible. Even with the compromise (adding illegally) it still sounds like you are suggesting abandoning the car as a possibility. The whole sentence should be rewritten, actually. Mr. 193.231.238.215

Anyone want to try the others? All this rollbacking is making me dizzy. And there are so many other pages that actually need editing! Majnoona 16:22, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

OK, I went ahead and made the above compromises-- I hope this will put an end to this so we can all move on to something more useful. Majnoona 16:32, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

I like the sound of ... big. Really, really big .... Douglas Adams used this same phrase to describe the Universe; but then I suppose that means it is a copyright violation from The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy - So I suppose we will need to wait a few years before we can use the phrase again. -- Huttite 21:07, 27 Mar 2004 (EST)

See my comments above... Mr. 193.231.238.215

Actually I was observing that we cannot use that particular phrase as it could be a copyright violation, though it would liven up the article if it could be used. - Huttite 02:15, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

[edit] Mr. 193.231.238.215 Speaks

Actually I have commented in line with some statements above...

Regarding my attempted edit of the used car prices: "(even the cheapest used automobiles in the US run about $1000)" Change this to $500 and it would be more accurate on an average in the whole of the US. It would well serve the writers to remember that the USA is not only California and New York. Better yet, rewrite the sentence to say that "even the cheapest semi-reliable used automobiles in the US run about $1000" or "even the cheapest used automobiles worth owning in the US run about $1000". Fact in point - a friend of mine visting the US for a few months purchased a used automobile for $200, drove it from state-to-state with no break downs, and upon leaving and with a little cleaning sold it for $250. Mr. 193.231.238.215

I probably wouldn't recommend travelling the US in a $500 car, but, sure, fine. --Evan 03:20, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

I wouldn't recommend it either but it happens. I am not sure whether it is a good idea to travel the US in a $1000 car. Thanks for the edit though: $500-1000 is a better number and the illegal abandon revision is much better. Mr. 193.231.238.215

Regarding this paragraph: Vegetarians will normally not have too much of a problem in urban areas, but it can be difficult getting much more than the fast-food "vegetarian special" -- french fries and a vanilla shake -- in some rural regions. Be forewarned: vegetarianism is considered a dangerously extreme political statement in some regions of the country, especially where the cattle industry is a major employer. It's best to be discreet.

My former girlfriend is a vegetarian. We traveled extensively and even in small towns of 10,000 people she was able to purchase a vegetarian "Big Mac" at McDonalds or a vegetarian "Whopper" at Burger King (I know... still not very healthy but she was kind of nutty that way anyhow). So the statement that "french fries and a vanilla shake" is the only thing you can get is incorrect and slanted. Most all chain retaurants such as Bob Evans and Cracker Barrel also serve meals that are acceptable to vegetarians. Finding vegetarian meals throughout the USA even in small towns is not the problem the writer makes it out to be. I question the tone of the the statement about vegetarianism in cattle industry regions. Is this from direct experience by the writer or just a "left coast" distortion of reality? Mr. 193.231.238.215

That's from my direct experience growing up in the Texas Panhandle and travelling North America by car for 15+ years, as well as from recommendations from other vegetarians.

Finding vegetarian meals is difficult in some areas; considerably more difficult than in, say, Europe. I think it's fair to say that if you have to check menus at a few restaurants before finding something to eat, it's "difficult". Often you have to put together a number of side dishes -- fries, a salad -- or eat breakfast food like eggs or pancakes for dinner.

And, yes, in many places vegetarianism is frowned upon as a threat to local industry. There are states in the US where "denigrating" meat is a civil offense.

McDonald's restaurants have vegetarian burgers in most of Europe and in Canada (that I know of), and in parts of the US but not all of it. Burger King has the recently-introduced BK veggie.

Lastly, thanks for joining the conversation. --Evan 03:20, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

Points taken... I still would like to see the writing a little less slanted (or a little more moderate) towards the anti-vegetarianism side. I think your personal views are tainting the main points that should be made in the discussion . Basically you make it sound like most of America is anti-vegetarian except the "enlightened" urban areas. I call that biased writing. I take it you are a vegetarian?Mr. 193.231.238.215

I want to get across a couple of main points for vegetarian travellers (after all, this is the "Eat" section), and especially for ones who aren't from the USA. I think the two main points are a) it can be hard to get veggie food (for an admittedly arbitrary definition of "hard"), and b) vegetarianism has a political angle.

If I was going to add anything else in for vegetarians, it might be c) America has some really great food choices, and d) you can really get some great produce in the US.

The last thing I want to do is make Americans come off as some kind of superstitious yahoos about vegetarianism or anything else. I don't think it's ever necessary to denigrate the local population in any article on Wikitravel. Personal bias would probably make me more adamant about citizens of my country in particular. Sad to say, there are some things that it's hard to be "neutral" about.

Anyways, I'll make an attempt to rewrite the veggie paragraph a bit. --Evan 04:29, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

Just to put a little twist on things, I'm a vegitarian, and pretty much have always been, and I'm from nowhere near either coast originally. That said, I think that any warnings about being able to feed oneself as a Vegi are in fact overdone. It could be that I stick close to college towns, or maybe it's because I really don't mind a grilled cheese now and then, but I've never had much trouble. Heck, I like truck-stops. In my travels I've found that a vegetarian lifestyle is actually harder in say, Lyon than it is in Champaign-Urbana. I don't feel like playing the "can I word it perfectly?" game so I'll leave it to y'all to fix up the USA page... but if I was gonna contribute to the vegi bit I'd say something along the lines of how a vegetarian can actually do pretty well across almost all of the country.

Meanwhile, Mr. 193.231.238.215, consider registering for an account. You seem to have a really good grasp of how Wiki format works, and you're not shy about contributing. You and I might have words on a particular edit somewhere down the road, but I think it's always better to have these conversations rather than to not have them. -- Mark 14:53, 29 Mar 2004 (EST)

I agree that very few people who are vegetarians will have a problem when traveling the US. My former girlfriend is a vegetarian and she had very little problem in all the traveling we did in the US with vegetarian meals. Agains, I think the vegetarian comments on the USA page should be moderated a little.

I've reworded the vegetarian paragraph to remove the value-laden word "difficult" and "hard", and rather point out what you need to do to eat veggie in the US. --Evan 11:41, 30 Mar 2004 (EST)

As far as registering, Mark, I am still undecided. When I came to this website I read the section "newcomers" and "plunge forward". One point made in "plunge forward" was this: "Ignoring authority. You have as much right to edit anything on Wikitravel as anyone else does. Don't bother asking whether it's all right to edit something. It is!". This all sounds fine and dandy until you make some edits to the USA page only to have them all undone by a few of the dictatorial-like members, hidden messages written to you, called "really uncooperative", etc... It really makes me want to contribute all right... Mr. 193.231.238.215

You're under no obligation to register; it just gives you a chance to set up a user page and have a more recognizable presence. I for one am really glad you took the time to "plunge forward"; I think this article is a better one thanks to your contributions. --Evan 11:41, 30 Mar 2004 (EST)

[edit] Abandoning a car vs Parking it long term

Is it really illegal to abandon a car on a street in the United States of America? Surely not. It may be illegal to take one if you do not own it, but to leave one that you do own... I think not. It may be an offence to park beyond the time limit, and city authorities and landowners may sieze vehicles that have overstayed their welcome, and sell the vehicle to recover costs, maybe even try to send the irresponsible owners a bill. But what ordinance makes simply leaving the vehicle illegal, meaning you can be imprisoned for doing so. If this were the case then the Police could arrest every driver who was issued a parking ticket! I don't think Homeland Security has got that strict.....yet. - Huttite 02:47, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

Sorry Huttite, but if you do just a little research you will see that it is indeed illegal for an owner to abandon an automobile. We are not talking about parking the automobile for a few weeks or months here. Also, if you look at most city ordinances, leaving a vehicle parked on a city street unmoved for more than a certain period of time is prohibited. They can tow and impound the car if it exceeds the stated period of time. All that aside: Do you think it is responsible or even ethical to suggest that someone purchase a car when visiting the US and then abandon it when they are done like some unwanted trash? I doubt that you would like it if someone put the suggestion on the New Zealand page that "Another option is to go ahead and throw you unwanted trash on the streets of Wellington, after all you are only visiting - you don't have to deal with it..." Mr. 193.231.238.215

But can they arrest you and throw you in jail for abandoning the car? Will they extradite you from another country or ban you from coming back. Or is abandoning a car simply littering, a misdemeanor, as it is in many countries, where you are subject to a fine, and a bill for the removal costs. I would say that imprisonment makes it illegal, a fine means you have been irresponsible. Huttite 03:37, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

Illegal means it is against the law. Do you think it is a good thing to suggest that someone buy a car when visiting the US and then just abandon it? Mr. 193.231.238.215

If someone buys a car when visiting for four weeks, surely the slugs at the DMV will not have sent you your new pink slip yet. And without a pink slip, how to you sell a car? Colin 03:57, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

You only get a pink slip when buying a car on credit. If you pay cash for a car then it is a one day process to get the title changed and registered with plates. The process is: The owner signs the title over to you if front of a notary (most banks have notories who will do this for free), take the title to the Title Dept. and pay the fee, they print out a new title and hand it to you, take the title to the Licence and Registration to pay for the license plates. All done in one day. Who would buy a car on credit then abandon it anyhow? Mr. 193.231.238.215

Sorry, pink slip is the official "Proof of Ownership" document that you get in the mail from the DMV. You get a pink slip in the mail after about six to eight weeks if you buy using cash, as I did with my last vehicle. (In the old days, the Ownership papers were pink). The Important Part is that, at least in California, you must fill out a form THAT IS ATTACHED TO THE PINK SLIP in order to resell your vehicle. So my question was serious.... what is the method used to sell a car when you do not have the pink slip in your hands? And will this method be a LOT more hassle than leaving your car on the street with a TOW ME sign on it? Colin 04:18, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

For details of the whole process visit the California DMV's website at http://www.dmv.ca.gov The "pink slip" that you are referring to is a California Cerificate of Title. I have never purchased a vehicle in California so it might be true that the DMV is very slow in issuing a Certificate of Title. Did you purchase you last vehicle from a private party with a clear Title or from a used car dealer? Or was it a new vehicle? Did you go directly to a main DMV office or through some DMV office that has to forward the request to a main office? Six to eight weeks seems like a very unreasonable delay when most other States take only minutes to print out a new Certificate of Title.

I have purchased vehicles in many other US States over the years and when paying cash for a vehicle it has usually been possible to get the Title and Registration done in one day unless it was over a Sunday. Purchasing the car on credit from that bank usually is a longer process since you will get a Memorandum of Title from the bank with the bank listed as the first lienholder on the vehicle. The bank (or creditor) keeps the Certificate of Title until the loan is paid off. So if it is not possible to go to the DMV office in California and recieve the Title the same day in the case of a cash purchase then what you are saying is true enough for California. Please realize that the USA is not just California when writing articles here though. Mr. 193.231.238.215

[edit] Left Coast Bias

What is, and where is, the left coast bias in the article? The article is written from a neutral point of view. Personally I disagree with most of the edits proposed by Mr. 193.231.238.215, however he has raised some valid points that need exploring. I believe the article generally follows a neutral point of view. The use of the words some and most are intended to indicate that there is a wide range of opinons and posibilities to be catered for. Saying it is difficult to find an item on a supermarket shelf does not mean it is impossible, but is something that the traveller needs to think about. I agree that the statements in this article are generalisations but that is what this article has to be - general - to cater for the wide range of travellers. Personally I have never had the opportunity to travel to the United States of America, but that does not mean I do, or do not, want to go there. Just I haven't been there yet. I have heard some interesting things about the USA, and have an opportunity to watch US TV news on occasions. It brings a different perspective to the world that I see from New Zealand. - Huttite 03:19, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

It does not surprise me that you do not understand the "left coast" bias comment since you have never been in the US. If you want a Californian's or New Yorker's view of the US then then the USA page supplies that. Fortunately the USA does not consist of only those regions. Mr. 193.231.238.215

I am glad to hear the United States of America is more than California and New York. Many of those other parts obviously have differing opinions. Perhaps you could contribute some commentary on the political bias that people in different parts of the country have so those from downunder can understand why a country that advocates free trade has agricultural and industrial lobbies that appear to be highly protectionist, isolationist and Americocentric. - Huttite 07:40, 28 Mar 2004 (EST)

Would you rather that the US government outlaw all special interest groups such as the agricultural and industrial lobbies you mention? I would rather see the representatives in Congress do what is good for the American people instead of being the whores of lobbyists like some are today. By definition the lobbies are special interests that do not represent the general population's wishes. You need to separate the acts of special interest groups and the desires of the American people. There are greedy people everywhere - I bet even in New Zealand. (I have spent some time in New Zealand.) I don't think I need to explain further to you about political bias in the USA as you seem to have already mastered the art in your preconceived notions above about the USA. By your own admission you haven't ever visited the US to form a first hand opinion. Try that first before coming to conclusions supplied by others or the news media. Mr. 193.231.238.215