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Talk:Sydney

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[edit] Sydney Districts

The current consensus on what suburbs and areas belong in which districts, and what suburbs or areas have sufficient content to warrant their own articles can be found at

Talk:Sydney/Districts

If you wish to discuss any districts, please start a discussion below, and update the index once a consensus has been reached. If you are adding information on new areas or suburbs, please just insert them into the index.

The discussions that led to the current consensus are archived here:

[edit] Sydney vs Sydney (New South Wales)

I didn't think the disambiguating NSW was necessary -- this is by far the most famous Sydney in the world. -- Evan 18:56, 29 Oct 2003 (PST)

[edit] NSW South-Eastern?

I think that Sydney should be labelled as the capital of the eastern state, not South-Eastern state (victoria).

A quick look at a map of Australia reveals that there are three south-eastern states on the continent.... The usage in this article is merely generalised in order to give a location. It doesn;t necessarily imply that there is only ONE SE state! Pjamescowie 00:52, 25 Apr 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Walking tour

That walking tour is enormous -- it looks like an itinerary to me, not part of the main page. I will make it so soonish if there are no good reasons not too. Hypatia 22:29, 7 Feb 2006 (EST)

Now at Walking tour of Sydney. Some of the attraction listings should move into district articles from there. Hypatia 06:19, 10 Feb 2006 (EST)

[edit] Accessibility

If anyone's interested in marking venues as being wheelchair accessible, there's a good guide at http://www.accessibility.com.au/sydney/sydney.htm Hypatia 21:01, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Gay and Lesbian

I've moved the following here for a couple of reasons:
  1. Bars belong under Drink (see Wikitravel:Where you can stick it)
  2. Specific bars belong in their district page, though it might be OK to mention one or two 'landmark' establishments in the main city guide
  3. See also Wikitravel:Information for gay and lesbian travellers
  4. We also dont need to cite Wikipedia or make links of the bar names (see Wikitravel:Cooperating with Wikipedia and Wikitravel:Welcome, Wikipedians).
Thanks Maj 10:00, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

Sydney is famous for its gay community, centred on Oxford Street, and the annual Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, which is mentioned in under "festivals". Gay and lesbian bars according to Wikipedia in Sydney include:

[edit] Harbour Circle Walk

The Harbour Circle Walk described at http://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/harbour/walking.asp might be worth a mention somewhere. There's probably other useful source material at that URL too... Spiv 02:59, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Large Boat Charter

I just want to make sure there is consensus that listings to Charter Boats on Sydney Harbour are not relevant here. I'm not talking about a water taxi, or small boat, or group tours, but I just don't think we need entries for boats that need to be char need 20+ people in a group to charter them. They aren't of interest to an average traveller, and I think charter boat companies should find somewhere else to place their ads. Any contrary thoughts? --Inas 21:19, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Climate

Sydney's climate is actually sub-tropical, and not temperate - according to climate definitions. London is temperate! However, I can see it is probably a little confusing to the traveller, that may not want to bother with climatic definitions, and may (mistakenly) expect that sub-tropical means that you can comfortably hit the beach in June. Climate is an important travel topic for Sydney. If people are coming to Sydney for the beaches and a suntan, then its no use coming in the clear and warm spring days of September. The latest version with temps to the first decimal place, and referenced also seems too wikipedia-ish. --Inas 18:03, 4 November 2008 (EST)

[edit] District map

I've also had a go at a rough map of districts. There's a draft here on picasaweb [1] and I'd be interested in comments before having a go at a polished district map for the main article. --Ronaldo123 02:05, 27 January 2009 (EST)

In general, I think we need to just have one final go of saying where the districts are, before we draw the map. Especially Inner/Outer West boundary. Hills District can't really include everything North of the Harbour and west of the North Shore. Ryde and Macquarie Park can't be grouped into either region. Is Parramatta dot, or a region? It can probably take in most of the area between Olympic Park and Westmead, making inner west everything west of Olympic Park, and Outer West everything west of Westmead. As far as the map goes, I think whatever we develop has to be in SVG, because it is going to need to be changed. I dno't think a bitmap background is going to work. --Inas 17:06, 27 January 2009 (EST)
Thanks for the quick feedback. Agreed that SVG is the preferred format .. I uploaded a JPG just to kick off discussion. This first map had its boundaries drawn along the lines of the district descriptions in the main article, finessed by descriptions in wikipedia and the NSW Govt Metro Strategy [2]. The Inner West's western boundary approximates MR3 (King Georges Rd, etc), although I did consider MR5 (Fairford Rd, etc) as an alternate. Anything west of this would be difficult to defend in reality. The Hills/North Shore boundary is going to be difficult, if not impossible. Perhaps a softer alternative to hard lines would be better suited to avoid constant arguments? I'm inclined to fancy a centre-based instead of district-based map, although this is probably a backward step given the need to somehow get Sydney's districts into a useful grouping for travellers. The NSW Govt concept along this line is clever [3]. Overall, we've got ten districts on this map which I personally think is too many, but consider this gives the best chance for a consensus. There probably are some important centres which are missing and can be added later. Here's an idea of how to soften the boundaries [4]

--Ronaldo123 20:56, 27 January 2009 (EST)

I have to say, I like the look of it. But, I think it is probably just wimping out. We are just making it fuzzy so we don't have to make an absolute decision. People are always going to be wondering where to put that attraction or listing, because we haven't decided absolutely on what district is where. You have missed Sydney/Northern Districts from your map. It just can never be right to put North Ryde/Macquarie Park/Macquarie uni in the Sydney/Hills District, and this is a destination for many travelers. (Although maybe we get rid of Hills District altogether as a district, and merge into Sydney/North Western which includes Ryde/Macquarie/Hills? I also think we need another Sydney/Hawkesbury district. I also think Richmond (New South Wales) and Windsor (New South Wales) don't deserve their own articles, they can be merged. What to call that district? Could they be in a Hawkesbury district as well, or does that make it too long a skinny east/west? I don't think it is right to put Wisemans Ferry in Western. --Inas 21:49, 27 January 2009 (EST)
The fuzzy one is probably what most Sydneysiders carry around in their head as their concept of Sydney's districts, but as you say it doesn't really work for Wikitravel, so we have to make functional boundaries for our districts. Regarding Sydney/Northern Districts, that wasn't one I was familiar with, but I suppose it could be incorporated by chopping off a bit of the North Shore. It doesn't really get much of an entry though - are we sure it needs to stay as a separate district or as you say merged into a more general Sydney/North Western, which is probably more logical for our purposes. Richmond/Windsor should be merged as you say - but this isn't so much a district of Sydney as "satellite" towns which should probably also include Camden. Ronaldo123 08:41, 29 January 2009 (EST)
afterthought ... Hawkesbury (New South Wales) would make a good fit as a region, not district of Sydney Ronaldo123 08:46, 29 January 2009 (EST)
Okay, lets say we merge Hills and Northern into North Western. As you say, if in the future the articles are overflowing with attractions, nothing is unchangeable. Although I agree Camden/Richmond have things in common - once we try and fit it into the wikitravel template, we will have two articles within an article. Two Get In sections, two Get Around sections, two Sleep sections. We may as well have two separate and smaller articles. Its not as if people are going to visit Camden and Richmond in one "trip". What do you think of my idea of Parra being a region between Inner West and Outer West, i.e between Olympic Park and Westmead. Strathfield essentially being the last western suburb in the inner west, and including Auburn/Lidcobe,Granville, Harris Park, Flemington etc in the Parramatta district? Also, what do you think of the Forest area? Have a look at the Sydney/Northern Beaches article, to see how the division between the beachside suburbs and the "Forest" suburbs is really ugly. --Inas 17:42, 29 January 2009 (EST)
I meant to say that Camden and Richmond/Windsor just fit as "satellite towns" as the main Sydney article already does. They wouldn't fit on the map anyway, so they can fit there or through other regional articles pointing to their own separate (albeit small) articles. I agree with your Parra suggestion above, making that a district between Inner and Outer west. I tend to think Forest can just be a grouping either with Northern Beaches or the North Shore (where the defining line has Beacon Hill as the most inland part of Northern Beaches, along the lines in my original map [5]; it isn't particularly worthy of its own region). I should have some time next week to redo the Parra boundary, then if it looks OK will have a go at a SVG version. Would you also think it good to have a mini-map for each district? Ronaldo123 03:50, 30 January 2009 (EST)
Here's a version of the map with revised boundaries. [6] It's a link to the png version but it's all ready for SVG. I'd appreciate as much feedback as possible to get a big load of fixes for the first release version for the article. Ronaldo123 00:48, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I'm happy with that for a first pass at districts and areas. It includes places like Newtown and Stanmore in Inner West, rather than Southern, which I think is the right place for them. I think the map still needs a little work to tidy it up. I think we may need an outer limit, rather than the outer districts disappearing to infinity. Still, the sooner we get a first draft up in svg, the sooner we can start improving it. --Inas 21:14, 15 February 2009 (EST)
Trying to make sure everything has a home, and started on Talk:Sydney/Districts. Let me know what you think. I still have difficulty with finding a home for Canada Bay area, and also for Wisemans Ferry to Windsor, and Brooklyn to to Berowra. I can't seem to think of Canada Bay as either Parra or the Inner West. Can't think of Wisemans Ferry as Outer West, and can't think of Brooklyn or Berowra as the North Shore. Don't think we are completely there yet. --Inas 19:17, 23 February 2009 (EST)
I've put back the Northern Districts and Hills pages. They are separate areas and the North West page was completely dominated by the Hills area - with nothing in there except the new rail line and Macquarie Centre. We may as well call the Hills District that because that's its official name, not the "North West". The Northern Districts area has plenty of restaurants, accommodation, the Lane Cove National Park, parks, etc. - there's plenty there for a separate page. I don't appreciate not being consulted and the changes just merged. JRG 07:46, 27 February 2009 (EST)
Inas - Canada Bay is definitely inner west; Wiseman's Ferry can go under Hills or Hawkesbury. JRG 07:47, 27 February 2009 (EST)
I only had a day or two before you reverted it, in which time, I added all the information you mention above. Give me a break please! During that time I also produced a region map for New South Wales, merged Sydney/East Sydney and produced a suburb district listing for at Talk:Sydney/Districts, work which now needs to be redone. Talk about not consulting, who did you consult before reverting the changes? I discussed it here for a momth. Did you discuss it before reverting? It is just as valid to call Ryde, Epping, Carlingford, and Baulkham Hills the same district, as it is to call Bankstown, Liverpool and Campbelltown part of the same district, as it is to call Blacktown, Fairfield and Penrith part of the same district. You say that the official name is Hills, and then proceed say we should include areas that aren't part of the Hills. Anyway, I don't really care what the districts are. I just want to agree on some districts, that don't miss areas and suburbs, so we can start building on it with maps, and articles, and not have the districts stagnate like they have for the past couple of years. --Inas 22:16, 27 February 2009 (EST)
It is not "Hills" - it is "The Hills District". Please give it the right name. For your information, I was working on the NOrthern Districts area to improve coverage and expand it. I haven't had much time at the moment to work on this, I was hoping that people would let me increase the changes. The area is far too big to keep on one page. At least give me the chance to expand on it - it's a natural progression that as the pages get bigger you will split them off and create new ones. Sydney is one of the biggest cities in the world in terms of geographical areas, so it's only right that we increase the number of areas. JRG 21:12, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
Again, it is no bigger the other Sydney districts. Can you please define the district accurately? It is more than just the Baulkham Hills LGA? I agree that starting with larger districts to get content and direction, and the split smaller ones as required by the content. Neither of these articles have the content to justify a split currently. At the moment Northern Districts has no content. Hills has very little real content, mostly fruit shops in Dural and so on. Not really useful to the traveller. --Inas 21:20, 17 April 2009 (EDT)
It is probably worth reading back through the prior discussion, and also reading Wikitravel:Geographical hierarchy#Districts. The idea is that in making districts for Sydney, we make sure we leave no gaps (including all suburbs), make an understandable division, and ensure each article has content. We don't want to be constrained by political and local government boundaries.
I am coming around to the opinion that where we use the names of political areas, that we should avoid using them differently to their actual administrative definitions. --Inas 23:58, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

[edit] East Sydney / Northwestern Sydney

Commencing redistricting as per discussions above. Any issues with the changes, or further discussion, please raise them here. I'll be implementing over the next week or so from now. --Inas 01:53, 23 February 2009 (EST)

The changes I made have been largely reverted by User:JRG. Any futher comments on the preferred districts are welcome. I'm certainly hoping after 2 years of waiting to get Sydney districts right, that it can be implemented with discussion, and not editing and reverting edits. --Inas 21:56, 27 February 2009 (EST)
The hard work put in over the long term to build a solid consensus and a careful districts hierarchy for Sydney has been a model of proper wiki practice and an impressive amount of work. JRG's reverting of this work without even so much as acknowledging the work done on building consensus, and without discussing his own changes is baffling to me, and a clear violation of the core principle of how Wikitravel works. Accordingly, I have rolled back his edits. If he would like to see things changed, discuss, do not edit war. --Peter Talk 23:31, 27 February 2009 (EST)

[edit] Using LGA's as district boundaries

I'm considering again whether we want to choose political boundaries or Wikitravel boundaries for districts. Although using Local Government Areas as the basis for boundaries would provide us with some oddly organised districts, not necessarily in the best interest of the traveller at least we won't have an issue with any ongoing debates as to which suburbs are part of which districts, even if we end up merging several LGA's into one Wikitravel district. Again, if you have just been a lurking on the Sydney districts discussion, now is a good time to jump in and give your opinion. For those not familiar with Sydney Local Government areas, you can see a map here [7] and see Penrith and Campbelltown here [8]

Three reasons why using LGA's is good:

  1. No arguments about what goes where - every suburb and area has its place. Mapping the districts is easy. If you use terms like the Northern Beaches, Eastern Suburbs, Inner West, it is never going to be 100% certain what goes where.
  2. Each LGA has its own website, do it is easy enough to link to the official site for parks, swimming pools, cycle facilities etc.
  3. LGA's tend to be smaller around the city centre, and larger further out, reflecting in some way the amount of attractions and traveller facilities there

Three reasons why using LGA's is bad:

  1. They often carry the name of a suburb or a feature that can confuse. Botany Bay LGA doesn't include Brighton (in Rockdale) or La Perouse (in Randwick). Manly is a region, and a suburb, so requires disamiguation. Hornsby again, is a suburb and a very large LGA, with places nowhere near Hornsby.
  2. Many people don't know where they are or what they are called. Most Sydneysiders not in the local area wouldn't even know where the line was between Willoughby, vs North Sydney vs Mosman LGA's. Again, with Kogarah, Hurstville and Rockdale LGA's. All locals will know the Western Suburbs, South West, Northern Beaches, etc Not many would didn't live in the area could tell you whether Narrabeen was in Warringah, Manly or Pittwater. Everyone could tell you it was on the Northern Beaches. Most are familiar with the major suburbs, but not the corresponding LGA's. As it to reinforce this point, the current districts on Wikitravel don't correspond to LGA names, except for possibly Sydney/Sutherland Shire and Sydney/Parramatta.
  3. LGA's split suburbs, areas, and other features into different districts. Gladesville is half in Hunters Hill and half in Ryde. Forest Lodge best grouped with Sydney Uni, rather than Leichhardt etc.

Again, what do you think? --Inas 22:51, 2 March 2009 (EST)

From my purely ignorant viewpoint (I haven't even so much as visited Australia), it would seem that the biggest benefit of using the LGAs would be to have ready-made and exact borders for the districts. Personally, since the administrative boundaries are not widely known nor used by Sydneysiders, I would prefer to see ad hoc districts, provided it's possible to define precise street/geographic boundaries for each district. (Of course, this preference might have something to do with the fact that I won't be a part of the defining effort!) --Peter Talk 23:16, 2 March 2009 (EST)

[edit] Yellow Pages (Central Centre Refactoring)

The Sydney Yellow Pages local directories are..

  • Manly, Warringah, Pittwater Districts
  • St George, Cronulla, Sutherland
  • Liverpool, Fairfield
  • Blacktown, Parramatta
  • Central & Inner Eastern Suburbs
  • North Shore, Pymble
  • Inner West
  • Hills District
  • Western Region

If we wanted to use those, then we would obviously separate City and East. Southern goes into either Inner East or West as far south as St George. City gets split into more or less current regions, and we have 9 remaining regions, already split for us courtesy of Sensis.

Again, we could always further split if content is overflowing..

Comments? --Inas 00:08, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

  • I'd use the categories that we have now but divide into a number of "zones" (with the coloured labels I have used elsewhere) and in some cases don't use a page for the particular zone but have a number of sub-zones each with their own page. My suggestions are for zones (with sub-zones in brackets) which I think reflect each zone's importance for travellers:
    • Central Sydney (CBD, The Rocks, Darling Harbour, Haymarket & Chinatown, East Sydney)
    • Eastern Suburbs
    • Inner West
    • Northern & North-Western Suburbs (North Shore, Northern Beaches, Hills District)
    • Southern Suburbs (Southern Sydney (this needs a better name, but St George is too narrow), Sutherland Shire)
    • Outer Sydney (Hawkesbury (ie. North West, incorporate Richmond & Windsor into this), Outer West, South West)
I'd leave SOP, Parramatta, Bondi and Manly as "Other Destinations". They're too important as tourist destinations not to be. Maybe under each zone put where they are. How about a "Sydney Harbour" page too? Sydney has enough attractions on its harbour to warrant a completely separate page.
The names would be up for changing of course, but my understanding from doing a bit of reading is that this is how Wikitravel works. Only a few big zones with lots of smaller pages underneath. This is markedly different to how I have approached things in the past but I'm convinced this is a better way to go than make big zones of cities for each little part. That way when pages get too big they can just expand.
What do you think? JRG 09:29, 2 June 2009 (EDT)
I see your concept, and it appeals to me. I started down this path when I divided the regions into "suburban", and "central". I'd like to have a go at seeing how it would end up, so I apologise if I get down to the grit before accepting the big picture.. I also apologise because I'm now leaning towards a more precise geographical classification - in that when we use a name, we should try and use it correctly, otherwise we will be forever fixing up changes made by Wikipedians who have got lost, and it is always hard to argue with someone who is right.
So, where would Strathfield to Parra end up?
Fairfield, Liverpool, Bankstown, are they outer, South West? Flemington? Inner?
Are we still going to put Mosman and the Zoo in the same article as Hornsby, North Shore? Hornsby is further out than Bankstown, are we going to call Hornsby North Shore, Palm Beach Northern Beaches, and Bankstown Outer? I can see some people possibly taking issue with this.
Where does Lakemba,
I would say Chatswood north is a very distinct from Chatswood south, north having natural attractions, walks, bush, and south having commercial, and much more tourist interest, especially along military road, north Sydney, Milsons Point, etc?
What about Ryde, North Parra River, Putney, Gladesville? I assume Northern, but sub-zone?
What about Davidson, Belrose, Garigal National Park? Northern Beaches? Doesn't really fit..
Lane Cove National Park? North Shore? Northern?
I agree Windsor and Richmond should be merged - is Hawkesbury the Best name? Wisemans Ferry? Hawkesbury too? Brooklyn? Berowra? Not North Shore surely?
Ku-ring-gai?
I agree attractions like SOP, Bondi Beach, Parra need their own articles, but they could be listed as sub-zones too, couldn't they rather than other destinations? That way people might look at Bondi, and see they can visit Bronte, and Watsons Bay in a trip.
I agree Sydney Harbour Islands could one day be an article, but at the moment, it is essentially living in a section of the Sydney article, and it seems happy for now, so I'd suggest leaving it be until we get the rest of the stuff sorted..
Overall, I think we have East sort of under control - we need to decide the boundary between East and Central, and East and South.
South looks good, Zetland, Airport to the Georges, Sutherland Shire forms south. Excludes the La Perouse Peninsular which is East. Includes Kurnell, etc. Boundary on the west? Hurstville north to the cooks river, after than it is west or central?
Hills? What are the boundarys..
Sydney central is still a mess..
If we define Central Sydney as the LGA (city of Sydney) it roughly corresponds to what we have now..
The City of Sydney defines the zones as
  • CBD - currently Sydney/City - This sounds right..
  • Chinatown - currently Sydney/Haymarket - This sounds right too..
  • Darling Harbour - currently Sydney/Darling Harbour Matches.
  • East Sydney and Darlinghurst - currently Sydney/East Sydney - a little confusing that we use East Sydney in a different way
  • Glebe, Forest Lodge and Broadway - current Sydney/Inner West, - but grouping this area walking distance form the City, with Strathfield and Canada Bay does travellers a disservice, IMO.
  • Kings Cross and Surrounds - currently East Sydney, this sort of fits to me, maybe Inner East is better, if uncommon..
  • Newtown and Erskineville - East Sydney - even though this is south,
  • Oxford Street and Paddington - we include Paddington in the Eastern Suburbs currently..
  • Pyrmont - this is in Darling Harbour - probably okay from a traveller perspective, but will distress the geographically minded..
  • Redfern, Cleveland Street and Waterloo - currently East Sydney - this could really be grouped with Surry Hills?
  • Surry Hills - East Sydney?
  • The Rocks and Circular Quay - We have the Rocks, Circular Quay is part of the Sydney/City.
We also need to find a home for Moore Park, and Centennial Park, which are really inside this boundary too. I can see all these areas as being of interest to travellers. Ultimo is with Broadway. Rushcutters Bay is currently pushed into Eastern Suburbs. The city of Sydney group Wooloolooo with Kings Cross, when they have very different personalities to the traveller. --inas 20:39, 2 June 2009 (EDT)
  • I agree about geographic accuracy. The Wikipedians will have a field day otherwise, and I know how frustrating they can be with nitpicking details and obsession with doing things in a certain way - that's precisely why I stopped editing there. Anyway, can I ask what you think of my big broad zones (forgetting the subzones for a minute)? This would at least be helpful on a map of Sydney.
  • Re subzones, I know there are some gaps. The two I might suggest adding are "Lower North Shore" which would add in areas like Mosman and Neutral Bay and separate them from areas between Waitara and Chatswood, and possibly Berowra (which I would put in "Upper North Shore". There's really no other place to put it. The other one would be "Canterbury-Bankstown" which would do all those suburbs which aren't south west or greater west, but are a bit closer. Greater West can include anything west of Strathfield - it's a big area but there really isn't anything to distinguish it.
  • Re the city zone and subzones, let's start on this:
    • CBD - self explanatory - Central to Circular Quay (except for Chinatown & DH)
    • Chinatown/Haymarket (use either name) - self-explanatory
    • Darling Harbour - self explanatory.
    • East Sydney - as you say. This area would be Wooloomooloo, Elizabeth Bay, Potts Point, Kings X, Darlinghurst, Taylor Square, Paddington and Moore Park, and Cleveland Street. Centennial Park is definitely eastern suburbs.
    • South Sydney - Redfern, Waterloo, Surry Hills, Chippendale. Not much here for tourists.
    • Pyrmont - I agree with you and would add a new subzone (including Pyrmont, Ultimo, Broadway, Chippendale etc. but not Glebe or Sydney Uni or Annandale).
    • The Rocks - self explanatory. I would put Circular Quay under the CBD.

Thoughts, comments? JRG 10:45, 5 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay, Inner City..

* I think Central, down to Railway Square, Capitol Square, fits with Haymarket, Chinatown better than CBD. Anything south of Goulburn (Liverpool?) St and west of Elizabeth is more aligned with Haymarket than it is with the CBD, I think.
* Star City, Powerhouse Museum, Harris St are really more closely aligned with Darling Harbour then they are with Ultimo. I know that Darling Harbour turns its back on Harris St, but Chippendale to Pyrmont Bay and Star City is a very thin zone stretching north south.
* East Sydney - We are saying that anything further along Oxford St than the end of Paddington shops and the start of Cententenial is eastern suburbs, anything closer is central. I don't like the name, though. The name East Sydney is used for the unofficial suburb that is around the Australian Museum, and it is confusing for it to go all the way out to Moore Park.
* The Rocks - well defined, good.
To avoid the geographical issues with names, perhaps we should manufacture some. Say Sydney/Centre East, Centre South, Centre West, Haymarket, Rocks, CBD, Darling Harbour?
Outer. Again, agree with the zone concept, but I think we need to think carefully about the grouping. I agree with are going to need a lower north shore. Cremorne, Mosman, and the national park areas along the foreshore are definite attractions, and putting them in the same group as Berowra is going to confuse. I agree that where the attractions are sparse, we can have larger zones. However the real challenge is covering the gaps, with Sydney's geography. The more precise we seem to get with our naming, the more gaps seem to be created. --inas 19:45, 8 June 2009 (EDT)
I like your suggestions - but can we have "City East" instead of "Centre East", etc. They're a bit artificial otherwise. What would you describe as "Centre West" or "City West"? Pyrmont/Ultimo/Chippendale? JRG 07:06, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
Okay - agree City East sounds better than Centre East. How to distinguish City West from Inner West is the question. Saying Chippendale is City West, and then Newtown is Inner West sounds confusing doesn't it? Perhaps City West isn't a good idea.
So, for the central zones. We have
* CBD - the area north to Circular Quay, and the Opera House, including the Botanic Gardens, South to Liverpool Street, West to the Western Boundary with the Rocks, and West to Western Distributor at the Rocks, and Sussex St and Darling Harbour. East to incorporate all of the Botanic Gardens and the Domain, and the Art Gallery, but not Woollomooloo. Including Cook and Philip Park, Bounded south of William St by College St,
The Rocks - North of the Cahill overpass to the west of Circular Quay. North of the Western Distributor on Kent and Sussex. incorporating Walsh Bay.
I think we are essentially agreed on that?
Okay, City East... West bounded by the CBD. East of Botanic, Domain, College, Wentworth. South to include the end of the Moore Park Precinct as far as Cleveland. East as far as the end of Paddington Shops on Oxford, not including Wollahra or Centennial. Include Elizabeth Bay, Potts Point, Darlinghurst, Taylor Square, Kings Cross, but not Rushcutters Bay. Include Crown St Surry Hills, Forveuz st East of Central.
How does that sound? Redfern isn't really attraction. We could include the few things there either in City East or whatever our Southern Sydney zone name becomess?
Now more controversially..
Okay City South, West of Central, North to Liverpool, includes Chinatown, Capitol Square, Paddy's Markets, Entertainment Centre, Haymarket, Ultimo west of Harris, Chippendale, but not Glebe, not Newtown. Includes Broadway, UTS, but not Sydney Uni, not Victoria Park Pool, etc. Includes the backpackers zone, but the CBD extends to include World Square. By using City South for this area, we don't have to worry about the actual definitions of Haymarket, and it sort of corresponds to the signage around, with uses the City South signage.
More controversially still
Darling Harbour - includes King St Wharf, Cockle Bay, West of Sussex St, Darling Harbour Precinct, not the Entertainment Centre, and Ultimo East of Harris (including the Powerhouse), and Pyrmont West of Harris, including Star City. Star City, the Power House and Harbourside are all close, the Get In, Around methods are all the same..
Getting closer? --inas 00:41, 11 June 2009 (EDT)
Absolutely, I'm happy with that. Just define an eastern boundary for City East that is easy to work out. What's next? JRG 07:00, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

Okay, for the wider Sydney region. Okay, lets firstly define what the outer boundary of Sydney should be. Sydney is bounded by Wollongong/Illawarra, Central Coast, Southern Highlands and the Blue Mountains. We can include/exclude Helensburgh, which is effectively more part of Sydney than of Wollongong. We can include/exclude Brooklyn, which although in Hornsby is more part of a Central Coast trip. We can include/exclude Windsor/Richmond which have the feel of separate towns, or we can go with the standard Sydney Metro area LGA's, which is consistent with our new policy of using geographical names correctly when we choose to use them. Any opinion?

We have essentially already decided that the compass points around Sydney give us the outline of our major regions, so lets go aronnd the compass, starting east, which is the easiest start.

The region there is Eastern Suburbs, it has a western boundary with City East, and a Eastern Boundary at South Head all the way to La Perouse and Bare Island along the coast. It follows the northern side of Botany Bay as far as the western side of the airport, then everything east of Southern Cross Drive as far Moore Park, where it joins with city east again. If we wanted to subdivide this district into neighborhoods, they would probably be Harbourside, from Rushcutters Bay to Watsons Bay. Bondi/Bronte, Southern Beachside suburbs, Bayside, and University/Randwick area. How does that sound as a region? --inas 00:06, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

Also, to backtrack one step, what we referred to as Sydney CBD previously, is currently Sydney City. Do we actually want to rename this as Sydney CBD? Would a name City North per preferable? --inas 00:16, 16 June 2009 (EDT)

Let's exclude Helensburgh (very north end of the Illawarra as far as I'm concerned), include Brooklyn (not really Central Coast, though if we have a separate "Hawkesbury" section it could go in there), and include Windsor and Richmond - they are now really outer parts of Sydney rather than their own towns. This is consistent with the Sydney metro area. As for the Eastern Suburbs, that sounds good. Let's just do the main articles for now, and make sub-articles (Bondi, etc will be the obvious ones). Bayside sounds a bit artificial - another name would be needed I think. As for the CBD, I think "City Centre" or "CBD" is better than "City North". JRG 02:27, 20 June 2009 (EDT)
Regarding City North, City Centre, City South. These are the general directional signs coming into the City, anywhere between central and the Quay. If we use start using that terminology, City South, City Centre... Hmmm...
Including Brooklyn in a Hawkesbury district? I just can't see that working. It must be well over an hour's drive Richmond/Windsor up to Brooklyn, must be close to 3 hours by public transport. If it doesn't go with the central coast, it will have to go wherever Berowra ends up, I think.
Okay, next around from the east, to the south. The Sutherland Shire forms such a distinct region between south of the Georges, north of Wollongong. West to Alfords Point, West to Heathcote National Park. East to the coast.
Where does south divide from West and South West. Well the council areas of St George, Hurstville, Rockdale and Kogarah are generally regarded as south. Bankstown is generally regarded as southwest. Marrickville is generally regarded as Inner West. Do you agree? A consideration here is that we would like all the airport hotels, etc to be in a single article, rather than scattered amoungst several. --inas 21:05, 22 June 2009 (EDT)
I'll start work rearranging the centre bit in a week or so.. --inas 01:27, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

Been away from here a while, trying to digest all the talk, so pardon me if I've missed something. The visitnsw website uses the concept of Inner Sydney and Greater Sydney, which I know has been discussed a little already. While it works similar to our current groupings (Central Sydney and Suburban), it's a little more focussed. It then breaks down only into precincts of interest. IE, inner Sydney goes as far west as Leichhardt but also includes Manly and Northern Beaches, which to me seems to cover most travellers' focus areas. Greater Sydney includes Parra, Olympic Park, Cronulla, Hawkesbury, etc. They have a fair few blank zones but I suppose they can get away with it, whereas we must draw the line. Still, the site is worth a peek.

From the chat above I'm a little confused as to how the inner ring is going to be split up. I mean there's distinct Glebe/Balmain/Leichhardt, Newtown/Erskineville/Enmore, Waterloo/Surry Hills, then the Paddinghurst/Potts Pt zones. Do you group them like that, or as a single ring-shaped precinct? Also Southern Sydney currently includes all the airport area - not good enough? Ronaldo123 03:19, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Inas - sounds good. Let's not use the City signage terminology - it's simply for use of motorists, not tourists. City Centre is fine. Ronaldo123 the areas are still a work in progress, but there's no "inner" and "outer" as such - the names are common names in use, Inner West, etc. We are splitting the areas up primarily according to the commonly used names. JRG 09:16, 20 July 2009 (EDT)
Ronaldo123 - I've looked around at many of the regional groupings, used at NSW tourism, LGA's, other tourism sites, and even the yellow pages at the top of this thread. None of them are really inspirational. I agree that Leichardt does form a border of sorts, as far west as a city tourist would naturally go. What is your point about Southern Sydney and the airport, I don't understand what you are saying. --inas 00:56, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
I'm starting to roll the central city changes through. --inas 20:51, 29 July 2009 (EDT)

[edit] break in discussion

The City changes as outlined above are nearly in place. I've moved a few listings around. I'd like to suggest that we use this opportunity to create a Harbour Islands district. These have distinct features and ways of getting in, and currently the info is in the Sydney article. That would assist us in getting the last of the detailed content out of the Sydney article and into the districts. If we don't create this district, I'm at a loss where this info should go. --inas 01:42, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
I'll proceed to add the district - if anybody objects later we can change.
This gives us our final Sydney Central areas as City Centre, The Rocks, City South, City East, Darling Harbour, City West, and Harbour Islands. --inas 21:29, 5 August 2009 (EDT)
Let's change it to "Sydney Harbour" - not "Harbour Islands". I agree we should have one for the Harbour islands but I think it can be expanded somewhat. Sydney's Ferry services and the places to which they go are an attraction in themselves. JRG 00:39, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, but we don't have articles on WT for bodies of water, so I don't think that is an option, without changing policy. But certainly I agree, it would be useful to have the harbour cruises in one place. Note that there is currently a Sydney Harbour article, which attempts to direct travellers to what they may be looking for, the harbour cruise information in Sydney/City Centre or Sydney/Darling Harbour, or the Harbour Islands information, that is now developing in Sydney/Harbour Islands. --inas 20:13, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
You are misreading the policy -- bodies of water can be used as the names of region articles when appropriate, and it would be stupid to separate cruises in the harbour from islands in the harbour. Jpatokal 23:54, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
I'm not misreading the policy. If we create a Sydney Harbour article that covers cruising the harbour, sailing the harbour, ferries on the harbour, etc, you may as well delete the bodies of water guideline and be done with it, because it breaks every part of that guideline. --inas 00:04, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
That may be the case, but it would make sense to put the ferries (as a tourist attraction rather than a means to get somewhere) in with the article. The article could be more comprehensive in that way and cover more. But I'll leave it up to you. JRG 21:23, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
I kind-of agree. I think mentioning the ferries as an attraction, and not just as a utilitarian means of transport is good. I think mentioning them near the cruises is good, because lets face it, the ferry trips are just as nice, and can save you significant amounts of money over a cruise. The reason I put the harbour islands in a separate article was that it was the only land region within 10km of central Sydney which didn't yet have a home in any district. I considered just putting them in Sydney/City Centre, but that didn't seem quite right, and I like the idea of covering them in more depth on Wikitravel, because the coverage of them elsewhere is limited. Still, I don't agree with Jpatokal that not mentioning harbour cruises and islands in the same article is stupid. I think the most popular harbour trips are probably Manly, Parramatta and the zoo. I think the harbour cruises don't have a focus on the islands, and they are not often visited this way. The choices seem to be to put the info in the district where they arrive and leave from, or in the main Sydney article, or in the some other article focussed on the harbour. Still, this is all just a peripheral issue really, so for now we might was well progress with the other districting stuff, and just return to this a little later, hopefully a few others can jump in with their opinions. --inas 00:37, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
In relation to North Sydney - let's keep the page but change the link at the top so it is a sub-page of Lower North Shore. There's far too much in that article to just merge into the area article. The idea was not to delete suburb articles if they are significant enough but to set out with a set of "area" articles under which we can put other information if need be. North Sydney is like Sydney's second CBD so it should probably have its own page, but definitely only as a sub-page of Lower North Shore and not linked on the Sydney page. Select some of the best bits for the Lower North Shore page. JRG 08:08, 27 August 2009 (EDT)
Sure, there is lots of material there, but little of it is actually about North Sydney suburb. I've removed the merge notice. I'll relocate the Lower North Shore info to that article, and beef up the North Sydney info too, and when we see what is left we can decide if it is an article worth keeping. --inas 16:33, 27 August 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Inner Radial Refactoring

In line with Ronaldo's thinking, I propose a concentric circle model. With most of the visited areas closer to the city covered by smaller districts, as they have more attractions. I propose that we have a Inner Radius, which would consist of Eastern Suburbs, Southern Sydney, Inner West, and Lower North Shore. Southern Sydney would include down to the airport and Brighton, and up through Tempe to the Inner West. Inner West goes from Glebe to Strathfield, up to Five Dock and Drummoyne, Balmain and the River. Lower North Short includes Lane Cove West to Mosman, North to Chatswood. If the districts sound generally okay, then I'll define the boundaries more precisely. --inas 02:55, 10 August 2009 (EDT)

Sounds good Inas. JRG 00:40, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
Hi Ians - I love the inner city map. It's good, and sets out the districts really well. For the sake of accuracy, can we add the Harbour Tunnel (as a dashed line) and Cross-City Tunnel (as a dashed line), and draw in the city railway lines and light rail just to help people? I know it's supposed to be a very general map but public transport markers (I know you have written in the station names) will help people get their bearings. JRG 02:15, 12 September 2009 (EDT)
I'll at least put in station markers, that is easy, and useful, and quick. The location of the underground railway would be guessing, as I'm not aware of any free source of the location of the lines.. --inas 23:24, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Outer Radial Refactoring..

We seem to be progressing well.

Lets have a shot at the outer radial refactoring.

Starting from the North and East.

If we look at the region bordered in the south and east by Manly, North and East by Palm Beach, North and West by Terrey Hills South and West by the Spit, and Roseville Bridge/Middle Harbour.

This is a large region, with quite a few accommodation options, beaches, national parks. Some of the places are even holiday and travel destinations for Sydneysiders.

It is also distinct. Middle Harbour and bushland, and the lack of a rail network isolates this area somewhat from the rest of Sydney - really the Roseville Bridge, Mona Vale Road and the Spit Bridge are the only road access points. The only other access method would be by ferry to Manly.

So, it makes sense for this to be a distinct region for the traveller.

Currently we have an fairly bare Northern Beaches district, and many beachside suburbs, and a few forest ones have separate articles. Where these exist they tend to be fairly light.

The question arises, whether to make it one large region, or whether to split it.

if we split...

  1. we could do a Northern Beaches/Forest split (sort of an east/west split) The advantage of doing this that the beachside suburbs get lumped together, and the the suburbs like Belrose, which really aren't beachside suburbs have somewhere else to go. The disadvantage would have to be that the forest suburbs are not really major destinations, and many are really only residential, so we end up with a heavy article for the Northern Beaches and a light on for Forest.
  2. we could split of Mona Vale to Palm Beach as a third region. This option makes more sense if we get ride of the Palm Beach and merge into this region.
  3. We could expand the Manly article to be the Manly LGA, to take in Seaforth, and Balgowlah, up to Brookvale, and make the Northern Beaches article cover from Curl Curl to Palm Beach.
  4. We could use the LGAs. Manly much as above, Warringah and Pittwater. This gives us clear boundaries, three distinct regions, but buts the Forest areas together with the beaches.

My preference is a three districts. Northern Beaches, with Manly being a separate article. Forest, with no separate articles, and Pittwater, with no separate articles. Merge, Palm Beach. The advantages I see of this division are..

  • The district stay small enough, so there is not a great deal of need for lots of smaller suburban articles.
  • Forest, Northern Beaches, and Pittwater regions are well known names.
  • Even though Forest may be a bit bare of attractions compared to the others, this in itself is imformative to travellers.
  • The Forest areas, Pittwater and areas south of Mona Vale have different get in and around type options. Forest you are always going to go via bus from Chatwood or similar, or through Roseville. Northern Beaches via Ferry or via the spit, so we won't have to put distinct sections within the Get in and around.

Any comments, ideas for this district? --inas 23:01, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

I really don't like the terminology for the "Forest" area as a major area of Sydney. It's not really a term in common usage (the only site I get looking it up on Google is Wikipedia, which is hardly reliable, and local sporting clubs). The "Forest area" is really only 5 or so suburbs that don't fit into either north shore or northern beaches, but Northern Beaches is closer. We can't just create top-level districts just because a few suburbs don't fit. Let's make "Northern Beaches" include those suburbs as well and make it "Forest" or whatever you call it a sub-article. Also, putting Palm Beach, etc. as Pittwater is going to be confusing. Most locals will talk about them as Northern Beaches. Yes, "Northern Beaches" goes from Manly up to Palm Beach, but we can just add sub-articles underneath. The whole idea was to have a few sub-Sydney articles and to put some below that, not to merge everything into one article at this stage.
    • Let's have four sub-articles under "Northern Beaches"
      • Frenchs Forest area (or "Forest" if that's what you wanted to call it, I'm ok with the term as long as it's not a main district in Sydney) - could include Garigal National Park, Oxford Falls and Terrey Hills area;
      • Barrenjoey Peninsula/Pittwater (or whatever you want to call it) - Mona Vale to Palm Beach area
      • Manly (as is, enough on its own); and
      • Warringah (everything else, essentially north of Curl Curl up to south of Mona Vale)
I'm happy to include Mona Vale in the most appropriate category - Warringah could be a better place. Let me know your thoughts. JRG 09:45, 19 September 2009 (EDT)
Okay - so essentially you agree with me (with minor reservations) on the Forest - Frenchs Forest is worse, because it is a suburb. You have things like Forest Coach Lines, etc and plenty of sporting clubs with the Forest in the name. I think it is an identifiable district.
Pittwater you agree also.
You think we should use Northern Beaches as a second level encapsulating district, with sub-districts. I'm not sure you really mean to have three level districts, but have an organisation like Chicago. If so, I don't really have a problem with that. There are still only two levels, but we group them in the main article.
I think we agree on Manly.
I don't agree on using Warringah for the area for Curl-Curl to Mona-Vale, because it is a name of a LGA, which also incorporates the Forest area, and doesn't include Seaforth etc. I think it would be confusing. Do you think Seaforth is a better fit with the Forest, Manly or this "lower northern beaches", area? --inas 01:23, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
I picked "Warringah" as in "Manly-Warringah" - it is the common name of the lower part of the Northern Beaches. I'll accept "Lower Northern Beaches" as a compromise, although that's technically not accurate as it doesn't include Manly. Warringah may be the LGA but it doesn't matter as long as we explain what it is. Seaforth is also unacceptable because it is the name of a suburb. JRG 06:41, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
Wasn't suggesting Seaforth, I was just pointing out that whatever region name we decide on should include it, and I'm not sure that Warringah necessarily does. Maybe we just use Northern Beaches for the area, which is definitely inclusive, and a common name. We can then direct people off to Forest, Manly or Pittwater for more information on those particular regions/suburbs, and use the Northern Beaches article to cover the remainder of the area. I agree Lower Northern Beaches isn't ideal, because it is a term I've never heard used before. --inas 18:19, 15 October 2009 (EDT)
I don't agree with your suggestion. Let's try something else. JRG 01:26, 7 November 2009 (EST)
Do you have an idea that addresses the issues - that is it includes all areas, and doesn't reuse common (or defined) names to mean something different to their common (or defined) use (and therefore will likely confuse casual contributors)? My only other suggestion is really to use the LGA's, Warringah, Manly, and Pittwater. If you want me to come up with the another idea to progress this discussion, you need to be explicit about what your problems are with my last suggestion. This isn't a chocolate wheel. --inas 04:49, 8 November 2009 (EST)
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