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From Wikitravel

For future reference the Wikitravel:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Singapore/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

No mention of the military or mandatory military service?

Not yet. Do you have something to add that would be appropriate for a travel guide? Plunge forward! --Evan 23:48, 21 Jan 2006 (EST)

[edit] Understand

"but the Switzerland of Asia is for many a welcome respite from the poverty, chaos and crime of much of the continent."

Poverty, yes; chaos and crime, no. That's Africa. Just look up the numbers.

[edit] Languages

The article, albeit well-written, states "the most common language [of Singapore] is English." Although it is true, to a certain extent, that English is perhaps the lingua franca of the many different races on the island, and used in administrative purposes etc., the most commonly-spoken language is Mandarin Chinese. The CIA World Factbook thingy supports this: Mandarin 35%, English 23%, Malay 14.1%, and I think this should be reflected in the article, simply because it has the greatest number of speakers. I'm going to include this information somehow in the article; feel free to revert if it seems POV or whatever.

Sorry, I had to revert your edit. It's simply incorrect to state that 23% are "able" to speak English: the true percentage is virtually 100%, and English (or, rather, Singlish) is the lingua franca of the entire population. Mandarin is force-fed to the Chinese in school, but it's not anybody's mother tongue and even most Singaporean Chinese feel uncomfortable speaking it, while Malays and Indians generally don't speak it at all. Above all, for the traveler (our audience), English is by far the most useful language to known in Singapore and fully sufficient for, well, everything. Jpatokal 08:40, 13 Nov 2005 (EST)

Just something to highlight here. I wouldn't say it's true that most Singaporean Chinese are uncomfortable with Mandarin. It is just that most top politicians come from English schools and might not be very comfortable with Mandarin. However, if you bring in the middle to lower income group, they are usually more comfortable with Mandarin than English. However, for those under the age of 50, they usually would know enough English to communicate with the non-Chinese so unless you approach somebody who looks elderly, you usually would be able to get by with English.

[edit] Get in

I was under the impression that Singapore Immigration Officers were granting 1 month entry at the airport while issuing 2 weeks permits for other entries. Would that be worth mentioning in this section ?

Yes, but the wording needs to be written carefully — length of stay also depends on your nationality. Also, I doubt very many tourists would want to stay in Sing for over two weeks non-stop anyway... Jpatokal 08:17, 7 Sep 2005 (EDT)

As far as I can see from internet websites, the ferry service from Changi Ferry Terminal to Tanjung Belungkor doesn't seem to have been terminated. Could you please cite the source for this information.

Just called 'em up, and yes, the ferry is still operating. Will fix the article. Jpatokal 00:12, 11 November 2007 (EST)

[edit] Center vs Centre

Singapore uses British spellings, so it's hawker centre, not "hawker center". Google backs me up with 8590 vs 6120 matches (and 2,630 vs 1,130 if site:.sg is added to the query). Jpatokal 23:29, 6 May 2004 (EDT)

Fair enough. I don't have the time to get into an edit war! --Nzpcmad 03:59, 8 May 2004 (EDT)~

[edit] Prostitution

Prostitution is legal in six legally designated zones (incl. Geylang). Streetwalking, however, is not. Jpatokal 10:06, 20 May 2004 (EDT)

I have removed the quotes around 'women' in this paragraph, as the implication that transsexual women are not real women is considered highly offensive by most trans people. 62.253.240.4 21:08, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

I suspect most whoremongers would be rather offended to find that their pre-op "woman" has a penis... but whatever. Jpatokal 00:21, 10 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Wow! Great Work!

I just have to say what a great guide this is! I'm totally impressed with how useful and well written it is-- very clear and clean. An example for us all! Majnoona 15:46, 25 Jun 2004 (EDT)

I live here and I think this section is just getting started...! Jpatokal 05:59, 26 Jun 2004 (EDT)

[edit] NPOV

Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme. -Ray Bradbury

I have taken the liberty of reverting the edits of the esteemed Mr. 165.21.154.11. Made under the guise of "NPOV", this included changes like turning the phrase

shoppers can bust their baggage allowances in shopping meccas

into

shoppers can enjoy themselves in shopping places

"Enjoy themselves" in "places"? Whee. What fun. Actual NPOVing I'm fine with, but this is not Wikipedia — we don't need to stick to dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, to use Ray's lovely turn of phrase. Jpatokal 00:32, 2 Dec 2004 (EST)

Amen. Yes, lively writing is important. --Evan 02:23, 2 Dec 2004 (EST)

And again. Sigh. Jpatokal 06:23, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

We use American English here. Sapphire 06:28, 30 April 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Star

I like this article lots and routinely refer to it when I need any guidance on what information should go and how it should be formatted. I've rated this a star. I think this should be an uncontroversial choice, but please discuss any issues anyway --Ravikiran 06:17, 20 Nov 2005 (EST)

Let me first say that I'm a big fan of this page, and that Maj and I used Wikitravel's Singapore pages as our sole travel reference when we were visiting there last year. I'd say that along with Paris it is one of the best guides we have.

That said, this guide doesn't really have a tourist-style map so you can find different parts of the city and different listed attractions. I know that's unfair, but it really is a travel necessity, especially for a city-state of Singapore's size. I think it takes a real stretch of the imagination to say that you could find the Merlion and Orchard Road using the CIA factbook's Singapore map.

I realize that making good maps is very hard. We still haven't worked out a good way to do it. But I think that we have to get there some way. And we know that it can be done. --Evan 12:34, 20 Nov 2005 (EST)

I agree with Evan here — maps are the one thing missing, but they're a big issue. Jpatokal 02:08, 21 Nov 2005 (EST)

Apologies for making a reversion (links to maps, pending availability of more appropriate material -> rvt map slew (streetdirectory.com is already linked and there's a MRT map included)) necessary. I appreciate external links are not the preferred solution, but thought a small selection of external resources would be helpful if no "original" content exists and is apparently acknowledged as being unlikely to be forthcoming any time soon. Is it best to now disregard this shortcoming until "original" content becomes available, or are there any alternative interim solutions that can be pursued?

The best solution is to fire up that editor and start drawing. =)

More seriously, there's already an MRT map on the page itself, and a link to streetdirectory.com in the Addresses section. These should suffice for most needs. Jpatokal 03:52, 21 Nov 2005 (EST)

I have a question, if I may, about these maps (which I love, by the way). Are they copyrighted at all? Did you get permission to use them? They're super helpful, and I'd love to include maps like this of my hometown (you know, street maps, public transit maps, that kind of thing), but are we allowed to do it? How did you do it? Was it you, Jpatokal? I guess that adds up to more than just a question; I'd just really love to have maps like this on my hometown's page, but don't want to step on any legal toes doing it. Zephyros 23:57, 30 November 2006 (EST)

If you click on the maps you will get more info about them including the authors, source, copyright, and license for reuse. -- Colin 00:15, 1 December 2006 (EST)

[edit] From Wikitravel:star nominations

So I'd like to nominate Singapore as the first "Huge city" Star -- which means that not only the main article but all its districts need to be in tip-top shape. Note that all listings now use the new HTML listing format, so if they don't display according to the MoS, you can blame Evan, not me. =P Fire away! Jpatokal 21:26, 15 June 2006 (EDT)

• Support, but I think it lacks one thing — a map of downtown, something that helps me get from, say, Raffles to People's Park on foot. Pashley 03:23, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support. This is the template for how to set up a city article. The map on Singapore/Central looks sufficient for the needs of most travelers (in addition to the many other maps). Great photos, too. -- Ryan 13:11, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
• My error, not finding the maps. Pashley 10:58, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
  • No, the guide's error for putting it in a bad place. I've been thinking about ditching the Central sub-region entirely and merging the little info it has to the main page, I'm not sure it adds much value. Jpatokal 12:18, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support! V comprehensive article Tsandell 15:25, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support! Excellent article Jan 13:29, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
• Previous comment removed -- Colin 22:59, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
• Actually, the stated criteria for a "star" city article require only that any district articles be "guide" quality. When I drafted these criteria, I figured some leniency ought to be given regarding the imperfections of sub-articles. I haven't had a chance to go through the main article carefully yet, but from what I've seen, perhaps with a little MoS proofreading, it has my support. - Todd VerBeek 22:20, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
  • Thanks! I'll limit my critique to the actual article then. -- Colin 22:59, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support, absolutely, great content. --Terence Ong 06:57, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
• Support. Great one... love the place. -BratX.
• Support. Awesomely done! 66.9.126.26 19:10, 24 July 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Singlish

As you can see from Wikipedia's WikiPedia:Talk:Singlish, this issue is a bit of minefield, so I've just attempted to present and balance two undeniable facts:

1. Singlish is a language (a creole, to be specific), with its own grammar and vocabulary, not just "broken English" or "bad English"
2. The government dearly wishes it wasn't so, and does its best to force (indoctrinate) people to speak "Good English" (their term, not mine!) and suppress Singlish

Hence some odd consequences for the traveller, like it being rather rude to talk to somebody in bad pseudo-Singlish — the implication is that you think they're not educated. Jpatokal 10:19, 14 September 2006 (EDT)

It is not for us here to debate whether 'Singlish' is a merely corrupted English or a language of its own. While I respect your views on this matter, I feel that they do not justify the POV expressed. The position of 'Singlish' as language has nothing to do with the use of the loaded word 'indoctrination' to describe a public educational/informative campaign -- a bunch of posters and a few community events pointing out common grammatical deviations from standard English -- similar to campaigns urging the practice of safe sex, non-consumption of illicit drugs or warning of the dangers of second-hand smoke, both in Singapore and elsewhere.

I also do not see why you insist on adorning the term 'good English', which is not in any way uncommon outside of Singapore, with inverted commas while at the same time not doing so to 'Singlish', a neologism not found in any standard English dictionary and likely to puzzle those unaqainted with Singapore.

[edit] Newton FC picture

I've rolled back the change of picture -- the previous one gives a good idea of what a hawker center looks like from the inside, while the current one is an overexposed shot of pointy roofs. Jpatokal 01:58, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Ok, that is actually a kopitiam, not a food centre. Terence Ong 03:35, 27 December 2006 (EST)

[edit] Hippies

No Hippies allowed!!!

Have an older freind who was denied entry because of his unkempt appearance. This was back in the 80s when he was commin back from India. He also claims they( immigration) wrote "Hippy" in his passportand told him to wash and get an hair cut if wanted to come back.Has this been relaxed or hippies still not allowed in Singapore. —The preceding comment was added by 70.66.19.20 (talk • contribs)

It's been relaxed years if not decades ago. Will add a note. Jpatokal 01:20, 28 February 2007 (EST)

[edit] Crime

Singapore has a very low crime rate by any standard, and particularly when compared to most of Asia (Malaysia, Thailand, India, China, you name it; Japan/Korea are the main exceptions). Upamanyu, if you have any statistics to the contrary, let's see 'em.

Anyway, the point of those two words is that in Singapore, you can drink a few too many beers and totter down an unfamiliar alleyway with a bulging wallet in your back pocket, and nothing will happen to you. This is a pretty nice thing when you're a tourist (or a resident), and it's not something I'd recommend in any other Asian city. Jpatokal 05:32, 4 March 2007 (EST)

No one's denying that Singapore's crime rate is very low, in fact, even Korea's crime rate is higher. But the phrase free from the poverty, chaos and crime of Asia makes it sound as if Asia's got a high crime rate and Singapore is an exception. While Singapore indeed has a crime rate lower than the rest of Asia, the continent on-the-whole is pretty safe (can you deny that?) especially when compared to Western ones (both the Americas and Europe). I have no problem if you mention the fact that Singapore has a low crime rate compared to the rest of Asia, but don't use the phrase free from the crime of Asia — Upamanyuwikitravel 09:50, 4 March 2007 (EST)

"The continent on-the-whole is pretty safe"!? This is Asia we're talking about, home to over half of humanity — do you realize what an absurd assertion that is? And it's not even saying "free from the crime of Asia", it's saying (exact quote) a welcome respite from the poverty, chaos, and crime of much of the Asian mainland. Is there poverty, chaos and crime on much of the Asian mainland? Why, yes, there is, because the three walk hand in hand. Jpatokal 10:12, 4 March 2007 (EST)

P.S. I know that you're a Singapore fan, but I hope there is some mention about the inhumane way criminals are caned on their asses. Upamanyuwikitravel 09:50, 4 March 2007 (EST)

There is. And I'm not a Singapore fan, my mailbox is just located there. But I'll take court-ordered canings over lathi-charges and death from torture in detention like they do in India, thank you very much... Jpatokal 10:12, 4 March 2007 (EST)

By torture in detention, are you talking about third-degree (that is, torture of prisoners. Well, that happens in pretty much every country, including Singpore, you can ask Michael Fay is you wish). And I'm totally against the concept of lathi-charges, but it was the Brits who started the concept. (alhough it is idiotic of us to continue with it). Upamanyuwiki • (Talk) • 10:39, 4 March 2007 (EST)

[edit] Military service

Discussions about military service for sons of permanent residents goes way beyond our scope as a travel guide. Jpatokal 01:09, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Bus booking engines

Third-party booking sites are not in line with Wikitravel:External links. (And it's missing all the big operators anyway.) Jpatokal 03:24, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

Sorry, I don't see Easibook running its own buses? Jpatokal 00:30, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Advertisement allow?

Laundry

Laundromats are few and far between in Singapore, but full-service laundry and dry cleaning shops can be found in every shopping mall. Unfortunately turnaround times are usually upwards of three days unless you opt for express service. Hotels can provide one-day laundry (at a price), whereas hostels often have communal self-service washing machines.

   * Systematic Laundromat, Robertson Walk #01-22, ☎ +65-67380031. 11 AM -late. Your basic self-service laundromat.

That's not an advertisement, it's a listing. Jpatokal 00:28, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Respect

One should note that we don't need to list every single niggling taboo — gifting pigs isn't terribly polite in any culture I know of. Jpatokal 08:44, 24 June 2007 (EDT)

I still disagree on the bit about shopkeepers greeting customers. As I commented on my edit, I can't recall walking into a single shop without being greeted. The shops I visited situated mostly in malls around the city (locals shop in malls too, no?), and on top of that I visited some a bit more obscure establishments, such as a couple of martial arts shops, the other one in Geylang. I don't know whether this is due to me obviously being a foreigner, though I did witness locals being subjected to greetings, too. I was curious enough to observe this behaviour. Tsaik 08:44, 28 March 2008 (EDT)

• Maybe that's because your a foreigner, as you said and the government is trying to increase courtesy levels to attract more tourists. Besides, there is still some colonial hangover and many Singaporeans (especially older ones) still consider European-looking people to be inherently of a higher status than others. Those locals you saw being greeted in more obscure shops are probably regular customers, as I had mentioned. I am from Singapore and I am usually not greeted by shopkeepers whose shops I enter for the first time. Superdog 00:33, 14 April 2008 (EDT)
  • FWIW, I'm chao ang mor and 99.9% of the time I don't get greeted in shops in Singapore. Jpatokal 01:01, 14 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] ATMs at the Airport

Would someone who knows be kind enough to add information on ATMs at the airport? I assume they exist and take most standard international cards? Are they easy to find? Any suggestions? [Hope this doesn't seem too picky, but this is something I always look for. Need money for the taxi! Some airports seem to hide them, and last thing I want to do after traveling for 20+ hours is wonder around the airport for 15 minutes trying to find one. OK, maybe not the *last* thing, falling into an open sewer probably ranks higher, but you know what I mean.] Thanks. Jbradfor 17:27, 29 April 2008 (EDT) [Great page, BTW, thanks!]

Just follow the signs, or ask around. There are quite a lot of ATMs in the restricted area, and in the public area. (Almost?) all ATMs accept the usual Visa, MC, AMEX, PLUS. Taxis accept credit cards (10 % surcharge), but some of the drivers either want the instant gratification of cash, or don't know how to operate the machine and will claim the machine is broken. If they give you nonsense you can call the taxi company to complain. Alternatively, you can ask at the window first. --Rifleman 82 22:40, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

No, it's not just a driver conspiracy -- some cabs genuinely don't have the CC processing gear. If you need a taxi who takes cards, check with the driver, or better yet, ask the dispatcher before boarding. Jpatokal 05:29, 30 April 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Drugs

There was this case where a Nigerian boy was sentenced to death for drug trafficking even though the judge was convinced that he was not aware that the drugs were in his possession. The judge just said that "he should have known and therefore was guilty". I think it's only fair to warn people so they will be careful with their bags.

[edit] Rewrote intro and now it has reverted?

I rewrote the intro to Singapore yesterday to make it more interesting and colorful, yet today it has been changed back to the old copy. Can someone let me know the reasons for the revert? --MarinaK 14:31, 3 March 2009 (EST)MarinaK.

So, my main problem with your edits to Singapore (and most everywhere else in Wikitravel for that matter) is that, by and large, you have no idea what you're talking about, so your well-meaning edits introduce errors small and large. Your idea of "interesting and colorful" is also what I suspect most Wikitravelers consider "advertising copy". The intro, for example:

One of the most enjoyable cities in Southeast Asia, Singapore is efficiently laid out, stylish and innovative, and a melting pot of ethnicities, brewing together one of the world's greatest eating capitals.

• "One of the most enjoyable cities" is near-meaningless (and, for most travellers, probably wrong).
• Singapore is not a melting pot -- the races stay strictly apart.
• Very little about Singapore is "stylish and innovative".
• "Brewing together" a "capital" is a metaphor too far.

Also, it's standard on Wikitravel to include the tourism office's link in the first line and to bold words of interest. Jpatokal 23:52, 3 March 2009 (EST)

I also spent a lot of time uploading new images that were more clear and vibrant but it seems that these have not been changed now? --MarinaK 14:34, 3 March 2009 (EST)MarinaK.

The images you uploaded are mostly badly/incorrectly labeled: eg. the "Chinese food" is actually Japanese, "Indian food" shows a northern Indian dish (muttar paneer) almost never eaten here, and your "typical hawker centre" is not, in fact, a hawker centre at all but the very untypically retro-styled Food Republic shopping mall food court. I've fixed the descriptions where I could (although I junked the two food pics above and the totally generic "Drink" pic), but your images are also much too small to print properly... Jpatokal 23:52, 3 March 2009 (EST)

Hi Jani. I realize that as an admin and an editor for this Singapore article you have a vested interest in this article, but I have to be honest and I feel that your reply is quite offensive to the point where I feel bullied. I admit my introduction into writing for wikitravel got off to a bad start but it was more from lack of knowledge then any bad intentions. Your comment that I have 'no idea what I'm talking about' is quite offensive considering that I have worked for many years at a travel publishing company for many years and have had my writing published in travel guides. While I admit my writing style reads like a guidebook, or what you term 'advertising copy', my re-working on the introduction to Singapore was minimal and I still believe made it read as more interesting and colorful. I did not know about keeping the link in to the tourism site so that is my mistake. Your criticism of my introduction is your own opinion though and I'd love to hear from other admins on whether it deserved to be reverted.

The new images I chose were all Creative Commons images from Flickr and I chose them based on my search (eg Chinese cuisine). I did not know about saving images to the original size, I would normally just save the images as they appear, but now that you have pointed this out to me, I am aware of it and thank you for that. I also thank you for writing the captions as I have not done that.

Like any new person I have made many mistakes along the way and am still learning new tips on the way. I take all feedback on board and if someone tells me of a guideline that I did not know about, I adhere to it in the future. However, every mistake I make that you Jani P point out, I feel is harsh and disheartens me to the point where I am unsure if I want to continue. I have enjoyed contributing to wikitravel and have hoped that I have made some valid contributions but your critiques are making me feel worthless. If I'm taking your remarks out of context Jani then please let me know. I would also like to hear from other admins on this subject as well. --~~MarinaK.

Never been to Singapore, but I also find that your re-write is less substantive and more vague than what was there before, and I think the phrase "brewing together one of the world's greatest eating capitals" is pretty wonky somehow, kind of a mixed metaphor. As for the photos, I wouldn't have any better idea than you for the cuisine. I do prefer the old Drink picture though-- I always prefer a shot of an area of establishments over a shot of a single establishment, particularly if that shot is of an interior that isn't remarkably different from any other similar establishment in the world. Beyond that, I can't really generalize about your contributions on the whole other than to say that I think you make your contributions in good faith. Texugo 01:04, 6 March 2009 (EST)

Also, I don't know exactly what your picture labeled "Chinese cuisine" was (ramen?), but if served in Japan, everyone would agree that it is Chinese and not Japanese. Texugo 01:10, 6 March 2009 (EST)

You have "enjoyed contributing to wikitravel" yet my comments "dishearten [you] to the point where I am unsure if I want to continue"? That takes some chutzpah, given that you're doing this as a paid job, and have been doing so for almost a year!

The fact that you're working for a travel publishing company and have had your writing published in travel guides doesn't excuse the fact that you don't know Singapore — or most of the other places you edit, which is why your talk page is so full of people tearing their hair out. That's not an insult or bullying, it's a simple fact. (Or am I wrong? How many days have you spent here?)

You're paid to edit, so go ahead, please keep on correcting commas and spelling mistakes. But if you start inventing content about places you're not familiar with, don't be surprised when others correct you. Jpatokal 23:54, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Country names

Some other country articles include local country names when that name is significantly different from the common English name: Japan/Nihon, Albania/Shqeperise, etc. This is not the case for 新加坡， Singapura or சிங்கப்பூர், all of which are just renderings of -- drum roll -- "Singapore". Jpatokal 02:11, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Buy section: using credit cards

I think the comment that credit cards are widely accepted needs to be qualified. I had found that while credit card will be accepted almost everywhere in tourist areas (orchard road ect.), once you get away from the main tourist areas this is not the case. I have heard "sorry we don't take credit card" so many times living here. This includes a number of fairly large stores and international chains that i would have expected to take credit card. Should i add this information to the article? Joanna h

Can you give a few examples? I've been living here for 6 years now, and for purchases above $20 or so, credit card acceptance seems pretty ubiquitous. Jpatokal 01:48, 22 August 2009 (EDT)

I've had it happen in several supermarkets (sheng siong is one), bookstores, 7-11 (even when making large purchases) and some smaller stores. It might vary depending on the area. It is also possible that i've just had an unlucky run, hence why i asked before editing. Joanna h

[edit] Journey durations

How long are buses/trains to/from KL? 86.161.34.234 14:16, 22 August 2009 (EDT)