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[edit] Advertisement in sleep section

Hi everyone! In the sleep section currently some hostel/hotel operator keep recommending their own business. Same goes for some other Bali destinations Talk:Bali#Advertisements. Please feel free to adjust or delete them if you experience is/was different. Thanks Jan 05:36, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Mates, this article is going from bad to worse. It is fully overloaded with ads ans non-style infos. Some business owners place in all sections their business... jan 03:59, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Mainski are back and making entirely inappopriate and over the top advertising entries in multiple sections. Looking at the history of this page, why has the Mainski domain name/IP not been banned? --Burmesedays 07:47, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

I think that Mainski deserves a block for their consistent spamming of this page! In the past i solely forget to put some on the blacklist. I will write Jani/Peter a quick note. Feel free to revert them as I did in the past! Thanks for your efforts burmesedays! jan 14:54, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

Better to try to educate him/her first—it's amazing just how clueless some business owners are... The second step should be blacklisting the business' url. We try to keep blocks as a last resort, so lets wait on that option. --Peter ^Talk 16:14, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

Peter, thank you for approaching Mainski. Burmeseday and myself will see if it works. I know that blocking him is not desired but sometimes these business owner are annoying (especially in Asia). Regards, jan 03:15, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

Yes, thank you Peter. I hope you advice does the trick. --Burmesedays 11:11, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Clean up and added a map

Did quite a lot of cleaning up of the page, notably re-writing poor English. Also added a map. What is the real policy on all the advertising on this page please? I am never quite sure with Wikitravel as the 'policing' of pages varies quite a lot. --Burmesedays 07:22, 26 July 2009 (EDT)

The main policies for dealing with spam are Wikitravel:External links and Wikitravel:Don't tout. There are some more specialized guidelines too, like our policy on tours and apartment rentals. Hope that helps answer your question. And nice work on this article, by the way. --Peter ^Talk 10:11, 26 July 2009 (EDT)

Thanks Peter. I was aware of the guidelines and based on those this article is a bit of a mess and has been for long time! I will get editing. Cheers.--Burmesedays 12:09, 26 July 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Article looking a lot better

Well I think it is anyway :).

Removed some inaccuracies and rather tenuous claims by business owners, removed duplicate business entries in more than one section, tidied up email and website addresses and edited poor English. --Burmesedays 05:55, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

Hi Burmesedays! I would like to thank you very much for the cleanup of this article! I tip my hat for your work as I had to fight a rather lonesome war against the persitant business owners on NL. Keep up the sprit and have a great start in the week, jan 12:40, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for the kind words jan. The article could still do with some standardisation but I think it at least now reads well and is very usable. I will try to keep an eye it on it. --Burmesedays 22:43, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

I suggest that the article should receive guide status as now the article is really good. Any objections? jan 08:14, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

The see, do, eat, and drink sections are not formatted properly. And the listing descriptions for the see & do sections need to be expanded. Once those tasks are completed, then I think this would qualify for guide status. --Peter ^Talk 10:04, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

I know the island very well and I must say that the article now meets the content guidelines to be a Guide article. Standard formatting is still an issue though as I indicated July 28. Let me look at that in next 24 hours.--Burmesedays 10:08, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

I must also point out though Peter that this is a tiny Indonesian island only 4 kilometres across. The formal formating for See and Do etc is really pointless as none of the places have phone numbers, websites or even addresses. To do 'proper' formatting for those sections just for the sake of a name and directions would seem a bit over the top and a lot of work for no usability improvement from the existing article. It is appropriate though for Eat and Drink I think. --Burmesedays 10:21, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

For the most part the changes I was referring to are really minor (e.g., Sunset Beach is a beautiful beach with white sand and crashing waves. → Sunset Beach. A beautiful white beach with white sand and crashing waves.) Looking more carefully at the article, though, I see that most of the bulleted points are not listings at all, that is, they should not be in listing format, nor should they be bulleted. The first half of the do section bullets activities (not activity listings for dive shops, spas, etc.). This should be converted to prose in paragraph form. These are hardly major issues, but they are necessary to fulfill the "closely matches the manual of style" requirement of guide status. --Peter ^Talk 10:36, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

I have now applied standard formatting to the Eat, Drink and Sleep>budget sections and will try to get the rest done soon. I hope then the article will be good and complete enough for Guide status.--Burmesedays 12:41, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

We are going to this island in Oct this year. i was wondering what we should take with us as we are staying in a private villa. Is there some where we can purchase food for us to cook or should we bring things from Bali , also can we hire snorkeling gear? thanks Deb

Deb this is probably not the place to be asking questions of that nature :). However, I am happy to help on my talk page User_talk:Burmesedays. Please post any questions there. --Burmesedays 09:53, 28 August 2009 (EDT)

Great job, but where's that map from? If you drew it yourself, do you have a larger, editable version? Jpatokal 10:47, 29 August 2009 (EDT)

I had the map drawn yes and effectively own it. It can be as large as it needs to be - it is drawn in 1:2500 and I have the original 300 dpi image. There is a slightly updated version now with a scale shown (whoops!). Why do you want to edit it?--Burmesedays 13:30, 29 August 2009 (EDT)

Oh, I suspect for no particular reason - we just prefer to have the editable source file, so it can be changed if need arises. --Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 14:45, 29 August 2009 (EDT)

Hi Burmeseday! I really like the changes you made in the article and think it should be a guide article. Peter is currently on holiday, so he might not response this week. I suggest we ask Stefan or Jani and if they have no objection you are granted the pleasure to change the status! Regards, jan 09:55, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

Go right ahead and change it to guide -- but please do upload the largest version you have. Wikitravel will scale it down automatically for web display, but we need at least around 3000x2000px for anything usable when printed. Jpatokal 12:15, 31 August 2009 (EDT)

OK done. 3507 x 2480 version uploaded at shared as Nusa_Lembongan_Map_Wikitravel.jpg. I am more than happy for Wikitravel to have this on file for any necessary future edits, but do not want it to be shown in the article in a way that allows any user to access the full resolution copy. Once that happens local business owners will take the map, edit it and claim as their own property - happens all the time in this part of the world. I have therefore left the existing low res (and slightly different) version in the article. --Burmesedays 01:21, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

That kind of defeats the point-- if you don't use the larger version in the article, then the user never gets to see a legible version. Not only that, but in uploading the larger file, you can't release it on a Creative Commons license and then add your own prohibitions on its use as well. That's just not how it works. I suggest you either accept that, or request that it be deleted entirely on the grounds that you didn't understand the licensing system. Texugo 01:59, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

Ah. Now I understand. That is not how it was explained to me above: "Oh, I suspect for no particular reason - we just prefer to have the editable source file, so it can be changed if need arises. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 14:45, 29 August 2009 (EDT)". I have no problem releasing the image on an unrestricted Creative Commons licence in a LR format (as I did originally before the request was made for the original high res image). I am not going to do that for the orginal though as it will be stolen wholesale by business operators here for their own benefit. If that means you have to delete larger file, then please do so. Equally, if the administrators of Wikitravel wish to retain the larger file for the purposes that were originally explained to me ("so it can be changed if the need arises"), then you are very welcome to do so. --Burmesedays 03:31, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

That is the original point. Administrators have no special privileges when it comes to article content -- any user can edit them, and all users must be able to reuse them within the terms of the license. However, those licensing terms do not permit unlimited use, which may offer you legal recourse if businesses claim the map as their own. - Dguillaime 03:47, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

As I said in my last post, I now understand but that was not how it was epxlained. Just read back through this thread. But really, no issues and my advice remains: if you have no way of dealing with this other than releasing the high res original larger file, then please delete it. Legal recourse for copyright infringement in Indonesia is quite an amusing concept by the way :) . --Burmesedays 04:16, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

"Stolen"? What exactly do you lose if somebody else uses your map? One of the main points of Wikitravel is that content here can be, and is, reused freely. Jpatokal 23:39, 1 September 2009 (EDT)

With all due respect, what I lose in those circumstances is not really anyone's business bar my own. As I have now said 3 times, I understand Wikitravel's position and there are no issues. Please delete the high res map image larger file, and let's move on. I have by the way now started work on article Nusa_Penida and would suggest it is now worthy of usable status. --Burmesedays 02:20, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Well, it's your file and your call, but it's definitely a loss to Wikitravel and the world if you're unwilling to share a larger version that others could update and build on. Could I ask you to please at the very least upload a somewhat larger version of the current Image:Nusalembonganmap.gif? The current one is so small that most of the labels are illegible. Jpatokal 05:06, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Sure will, I will upload a larger version tomorrow. Thanks. --Burmesedays 08:18, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Deleted the larger file and upgraded Nusa Penida to usable. Texugo 02:30, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Thank you very much Texugo. --Burmesedays 02:57, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

I'm a little concerned by the text on the image that says "Copyright [something] Bali Promosi Konsultan" and "[something] may not be reproduced without prior permission". I almost nominated it for deletion as a possible copyvio for that reason. Either way, we generally frown on having copyright information within the image itself, especially if it contradicts the free license under which it was uploaded. LtPowers 13:16, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

I'll second that concern, and venture that it probably should be vfd'd. Texugo 01:29, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

I do not have the file with me this weekend. However on Monday I will edit it, remove the offending statement and re-upload. No issue. --Burmesedays 08:31, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

Done. --Burmesedays 11:56, 4 September 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Nusa Ceningan

There will never be enough material for a developed article about this tiny island which a few people visit and where virtually none stay. I will therefore add a Nusa Ceningan section to this article and put a re-direct in place. --Burmesedays 13:22, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Hotel website violating WT copyleft

Discussion moved here from [[User talk:Jpatokal#Link on Nusa_Lembongan page]]

Hi Jani, today 202.169.246.124 entered the following link to the Nusa Lembongan article in the sleep section: http://hostelisland.yolasite.com/ I think this is not ok as the page is a pure mirror of our NL article. I know we have a page for this at WT because its not within the licensing. I will delete the link to what to do with the page? jan 07:34, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

it is actually a Yola site apparently owned and built by the business owner. The whole home page is content lifted from WT Nusa Lembongan but there is information specifically about the business (Nanuk's Bungalow) on the 2nd level pages. I see that the business owner re-instated the link and then Peter deleted it also :). I suppose it could actually stay as it appears to be the official website of that business? --Burmesedays 23:54, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

Ah yeah, I may have done that too quickly. Better to allow the link, and contact the owner re: licensing violation. All he really needs to do is add Content of this page taken from Wikitravel, licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 1.0. --Peter ^Talk 00:04, 19 September 2009 (EDT)

That same link has been put back. Could an administrator please explain to the business owner the copyright requirement? --Burmesedays 04:10, 20 September 2009 (EDT)

No need for an administrator to do so—there isn't any difference in status, authority, or whatever between any users on Wikitravel. The difficulty, of course, is in actually getting a hold of the fellow. Try sending him an email [1]? --Peter ^Talk 14:20, 20 September 2009 (EDT)

Sure. Done. If that does not work I will actually drop in and have a chat with them. --Burmesedays 22:55, 20 September 2009 (EDT)

No response by the way, despite an email and user talk page message. Finding the owner is hard work period. I have therefore removed the url from the listing.--Burmesedays 11:14, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Partial protection

I have inserted a partial page protection for eight hours due to the edit warring on this article. All registered users can keep editing this article. jan 08:26, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

I have no clue why the partial protection does not work and Peter is also surprised because we both tried to edit the article as anonymous user and we couldn't save it.jan 04:45, 30 October 2009 (EDT)