From Wikitravel

[edit] Listings in district pages or topic pages

Evan, do you think it makes sense to list the attractions under the borough pages instead of the main NYC page? For instance, put the Met under the Manhatten page? There are so many things in NYC that one page would be huge. On the other hand, if I am traveling to NYC and I want to find a museum, should I have to look under each borough? Hanzo 05:53, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Note Correct spelling of "Manhattan." 67.163.249.124 08:35, 8 Nov 2005 (EST)

I think what we should do is have full listings under the individual "district" pages, with highlights up in the "New York City" page. So, y'know, New York City would have glosses on the most important stuff (Statue of Liberty, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Met, the Empire State Building, Central Park, etc.), and then each of the boroughs would have more detailed info (cafes in Greenwich Village, restaurants in Soho and Little Italy, etc.).

I'm not sure exactly how to describe this principle. Maybe this is how I'd put it:

Describe things as locally as possible (that is, as low as possible on the geographical hierarchy) and then "promote" things that are so important that people reading higher-level pages would think it strange that they weren't listed.

Does that make some sense? -- Evan 06:01, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Yes, it does make sense. I also wonder if it would make sense to have topic-related pages for in-depth topics like Museums in big places like NYC. Then you could have multiple paths to get there:

NYC->Manhatten->Manhatten Museums and

NYC->Museums->Manhatten Museums

That way the detailed information is only in one place, but the user can search by both district or topic. Comments? Hanzo 06:30, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Main comment is: ugh. B-) This is the quandary we've been dancing around with on Wikitravel talk:Large city article template. My feeling is to divide geographically, then by subject, rather than the other way around. I think there's value in doing it the same way for all large cities, too. I don't like having things too granular -- I'd like to be able to print out the New York City/Brooklyn page and put it in my backpack and use it for my main travel guide. I don't want to have to track down all the different parts. But that's just me. -- Evan 06:34, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Ok, let's go with that. I believe in making a decision and moving forward. And, a writer is always free to mention important places that are in the neighboring district - If you're in touring art museums in borough A, don't miss this great little place right over the bridge in borough B. Hanzo 06:58, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

How to show that a particular place is in a district? i.e. if I want to visit one place, which district page should I look into? This is not obvious from the main page. I wanted to add information about the UNO building, the Empire State Building and other famous places, but I don't remember in which district there are. How do I know? Just some ideas from a Frenchman who went to NY 17 years ago. ;o) Yann 15:39, 29 Mar 2004 (EST)

Theoretically, we should have a map on this page with boundaries for the districts. For right now, if you don't know where a place is, just add it to the main New York. We have a ton of cleanup to do here, and a few more attractions to place won't kill us. --Evan 15:50, 29 Mar 2004 (EST)

[edit] "New York City" to "New York (city)"

So, I moved this page from "New York City" to "New York (city)" for the following reasons:

• The official name of the city is "New York". Also, the most common name for the city is "New York", with "New York City" being a distant second.
• There is a US state named "New York", also. I therefore disambiguated the two per the article naming conventions; that is, they're labelled by what they are geographically (one's a state, one's a city).
• Although New York (city) is probably better known than New York (state), I don't think it's so absolutely better known that we can just drop the disambiguator. In other words, it's not the same kind of difference as between Paris and Paris (Texas).

If someone has a better idea, let's hear it. -- Evan 11:34, 4 Nov 2003 (PST)

• Officially, it's the "City of New York". -- Tim
• No, officially, it's New York. Notice that all official address are addressed to "New York, NY 10xxx" "City of New York" is a municipality but so is "City of Yonkers" "City of Boston", etc etc -- BAL

Yes, all mail is addressed to New York, NY but only for mail in Manhattan. Mail to addresses in Brooklyn is addressed to Brooklyn, NY and so on for the other boroughs. The mail analogy is faulty. Also, Manhattan is in New York County while Brooklyn is in Kings County, SI is Richmond, etc. Finally, a Manhattan resident would say he/she lives in New York but (most) Brooklyn residents would say Brooklyn, SI residents SI, etc. The correct heading for this page should be New York City.--Wandering 09:21, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Moving listings to district pages

So I just took a stab at cleaning up the "get around" section, but it's still pretty confusing if you don't know all the different systems and abbreviations and stuff... I'd love it if a New Yorker would go over it. But what I really wanted to bring up is the big See/Do/Sleep/Eat listings on this page, shouldnt those be on the district pages? I'm not totally up on the Huge Cities template, but I thought we'd want to put actual listings on the lowest geographical level, and then have pointers like "Blah is a good place to look for hotels" "Foo has many of NYC's main sites" or somthing like that. Of course I have no idea where to move things too... help? Majnoona 14:10, 22 Feb 2004 (EST)

Thanks for the clean up of my free associations. I'll try to add more in a coherent fashion elustig 14:18, 22 Feb 2004 (EST)

[edit] Organising restaurants

Lotsa work to do here. So far I've:

• written a brief intro to the restaurant section
• tried to clean up the train and bus sections a bit
• corrected a small error in the airport access section (Airtrain stops at Howard Beach as well as Jamaica Ctr)
• added a few museums (Whitney, PS1, museum@FIT)

I may take a stab at cleaning up the "getting around" section today or tomorrow.

Any thoughts from the assembled masses about how to organize the restaurant section? Obviously wikitravel isn't meant to replace Zagats, but there's just so many -- it seems like some sort of organization along the lines of location and/or cuisine would be good. Even a brief overview could justify having a page (or ten) of its own. nmehl

Hi. I seem to recall a big conversation about this-- maybe over [[Mexico City]? Anyway, the way I remember it is you'll wanna put the restaurants on the district pages, with an overview on the New York (city) page. The rule of thumb is always "seven plus or minus two" for the number of items human brains are happy with... if it gets to be more than that, break them into budget/spluge, etc. If that isn't enough, then you'll have to make choices. Imagine a friend comes to visit and asked where to eat-- do you give them 30 options or 3-4? Like you say: we're no Zagats. Hope this help! Majnoona 18:25, 20 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Seems like this was never resolved. Perhaps what we should do is move all the restaurants to the boroughs/neighborhood pages and focus the Eat section on New York food (bagels, cheesecake, pizza, whatever), reservations (is a link to opentable acceptable?), popular areas for different cuisine (chinatown, 6th street indian, little italy, astoria, ecudorian, etc.), and tipping. Seems odd to plug a few mediocre restaurants (lemongrass grill, while nice, is not exactly up there in thai food) on page 1.--Wandering 11:58, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit][add listing] Drink

What about places to drink? Is there any good reason to list any here? I can't think of any. I am particularly bothered by promotional-sounding copy like this:

"The best espresso based drinks in North America, this stand up coffee bar also offers delicious panino and cornetto all at incredibly affordable prices. Fast service, great quality, amazing ambience."

Come on! This is over the top! Not only is it "the best in North America" (?!), but it's "incredibly affordable" (What the hell does that mean?) and has "amazing ambience"?! I've been dialing back my own statements about places having the best of x-type of food in the city to "arguably the best," but this really takes the cake. I am inclined to delete all drinks listings or possibly move them - except this one - to the Manhattan page, since these are all Manhattan places. But really, whatever watering holes we want to list should be exclusively on "district" pages, in my opinion. Your thoughts? --Michael 04:11, 27 October, 2007 (EDT)

--

I still feel that there is no better reason to list Manhattan bars in this article than there is to list Manhattan restaurants. All the bar listings should be put either on the Manhattan page or simply in district pages. Why do some of you disagree? Michael 03:50, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I agree. --Beenthere 12:33, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I've deleted the bar listings, and seemingly not a moment too soon, as some publicity about a gastropub and its "famous" dishes was recently added. Michael 04:10, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Get Around

Copied current Get Around to Talk:New York (city)/Get Around in preparation for rewrite. -- Chris j wood 13:35, 26 Jul 2004 (EDT)

I have rewritten the Get Around section, which seemed rather confused. In doing so I've taken out the stuff on commuter rail, which in my experience is of little value in getting around (as opposed to getting into) New York City. It may be a previous author was getting at some 'intra-city' usage I'm not aware of (I'm a visitor; not a resident) but I couldn't make any sense of that bit of text. If anybody knows such a use, please write it in. -- Chris j wood 15:20, 26 Jul 2004 (EDT)

[edit] Multi-level article hierarchy

I've just noticed that quite a few pages relating to New York (city) have a 3-level hierarchy.... e.g. New York (city)/Manhattan/Greenwich Village. Is something we really want / need? I've been told elsewhere that Wikitravel would prefer to go for a "flat" hierarchy of articles.... à la London and Paris, with the main city article fanning out to individual district pages without an intermediate level (this can be indicated in a non-structural way in the main article District section and in "helper" pages....) Shouldn't the New York pages, then, be altered (and soon)? I notice that there hasn't been all that much work done on this city, amazingly, so maybe NOW is a good oportunity to fix our future approach. (The above article, for example, would be moved to New York (city)/Greenwich Village. Either that, or we develop a more complex hierarchy for all major, world cities for the sake of consistency. It could be argued, for example, that London could adopt a number of intermediate regions, slightly more finely-grained than exists already (Central, East, South-East, South, South-West, West, North-West, North and North-East, all of which are in common parlance and better suited to travellers' needs than exists already). Comments / suggestions? Pjamescowie 04:38, 3 Oct 2004 (EDT)

I support changing to the flat hierarchy. It seems to work for London, Tokyo, Sydney. Nurg 01:38, 25 Apr 2005 (EDT)

OK, so there seems to be a consensus amongst all the main contributors (here and on the Manhattan Talk page) that New York should move to a flat hierarchy, as for London, Tokyo, etc. I must say this does seem to be the most elegant and consistent solution for future work on this city. I'll be doing significant work on New York off and on in the next few weeks (I'm there for pleasure for a week late May - early June), so I'll start moving them to their appropriate namespace - unless anyone objects vociferously......? Pjamescowie 02:45, 25 Apr 2005 (EDT)

[edit] IvyMedia

Moved from User talk:Evan by Evan

(Evan: moved this discussion to the bottom of your talk page! -- Hypatia 18:09, 29 Oct 2004 (EDT))

Hi, Evan,

We would like to get our website (http://www.ivymedia.com) listed under Super Cheap Bus (New York). Currently you listed the sites owned by one bus company (using staticleap.com and chinatownbus.org as disguise). If you check the content of these two links, you would know which company owns these two websites.

www.ivymedia.com is an independent company that provides online reservation services to almost all Chinatown bus lines and non-Chinatown bus lines.

We hope that you could at least add our wite there.

Thanks you.

Jimmy

Just a little more info on this -- the addition of a link to IvyMedia's link from New York (city) has been consistently reverted by Jpatokal. I'll point him here. -- Hypatia 18:09, 29 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Two reverts by me, one by Evan. The first IvyMedia edit replaced most of the content, including the direct link to operator Fung Wah, with their site. Jpatokal 01:28, 30 Oct 2004 (EDT)

The first change is my fault. I did not know how this site works. After realizing how this works, I made a sensible change. The third time was done by a colleague of mine. We list almost all bus schedules connecting 16 cities/airports from New York. I ask your permission to list our link there. Thanks.

Sorry, but I don't make these decisions. That's not how a wiki works. Please discuss this on Talk:New York (city). We normally don't link to secondary sources, though (see Wikitravel:external links), so I think it's unlikely we'll leave your link in. --Evan 15:04, 30 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Evan, two of three links there are secondary sources (owned by a company, pretending as the secondary sources).

Sites owned by a company are primary sources, assuming that the website is not hiding the fact that it's owned by that company. Wikitravel likes having sites owned by individual transport operators/companies/restaurants/whoever.

On the other hand, if a site is owned by a single company but is pretending to be an overview site, that might be a reason to remove it. You could do that yourself, and leave a note on the Talk page for that article explaining why you did it... -- Hypatia 17:44, 31 Oct 2004 (EST)

The two review sites (or secondary sources) are owned by a bus company. Everything there is intentionally biased towards that company. One of these two sites was purchased last summer (before purchase this site was fair like our site) and the other is created last summer for deceiving end users.

In that case I would suggest removing all non-primary-source sites from this section. Jpatokal 22:46, 31 Oct 2004 (EST)

Yup, I think what we've discovered is that we already had some links we don't really want. -- Colin 23:20, 31 Oct 2004 (EST)

OK, so I've removed the two existing secondary sources links, and replaced them with a few more primary sources. I'm not that familiar with New York, but I know this is missing a lot of links. I believe this is OK (we don't list the millions of airlines that fly into Sydney either :) ). I suppose if anyone is really into the topic they could write a Cheap bus travel in the USA or similar article listing more providers to go with Discount airlines in Europe. However, that person isn't going to be me ;) -- Hypatia 05:26, 1 Nov 2004 (EST)

Hi all. It looks like IvyMedia put up a website for one of the bus companies (Today's Bus) they serve and linked to it from here. Personally, I have no problem with this as long as the site remains the primary site for Today's Bus, and as long as we can avoid having too many of these kinds of extlinks. So I just wanted to point it out in case anyone here disagrees. Also, if this one sticks, presumably we can expect IvyMedia might stick in links from the other endpoints of these buslines, which again I don't disagree with (subject to limitations I already voiced). -- Colin 14:05, 1 Nov 2004 (EST)

I modified the NYC "car driving" rules to be a better explanation of what out-of-towners must deal with. I also revised the Queens page, got rid of MOMA (which moved) and added many restaurants and tips. (I was the Queens page's original creator). -- -- benwick 15 Nov 2004

[edit] Getting around - further updating

I did some editing/updating on this section.

First thing I did was change it from "Get around" to Getting around" which is the correct term.

I did some general updating in the subway/PATH sections. I moved a paragraph around and fixed some capitalizations and other things.

Allan 5/13/05 10:22 EST

Thank you very much for your contributions. The section header is intentionally "Get around" (the other standard headers are similarly named) as a style issue. -- Colin 16:01, 13 May 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Hotel directory

I evicted the following entry from the text. I have somewhat mixed feelings about this: on the one hand, we really don't want to be a web directory of pointers to directories. And since the following entry is a web directory (and not a primary source), it's not valid under current policy. On the other hand, it would really suck if every apartment owner listed their apartment individually in the article. Bleah. -- Colin 19:14, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

• City Connections Realty rents local apartments at daily, weekly and monthly rates oh and they don't repay your deposit, so BEWARE. They have a small selection of apartments, some in the Gramercy Park area, some in Chelsea (their offices are at 71 W. 23rd St, Suite 1001). There is a broker's fee in addition to the apartment rental cost.

If City Connections Realty is the only agent for the apartments, then they are the primary source and not just a directory. You cannot just walk up to an apartment and check in. It's like a national park that rents out huts. --elgaard 16:20, 1 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Yikes. Good point. I guess I was think it was a realtor so they were using some kind of MLS system that would be common to many realtors... but I'm not sure so I've put it back in. I'll try to look into this more since it's an issue that could affect other places too. If it's an exclusive arrangement, there might be similar agencies for other places like vacation spots. Thanks Elgaard! -- Colin 16:17, 2 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Its gone again. Put in by one anonymous user (from credit suisse) and removed by another. It would be nice if people would at least give a reason or mention it here. --elgaard 20:03, 3 Jul 2005 (EDT)

[edit] To do (July 2005) - moving listings to district pages

Current status: most of the attractions info under "See" has been duplicated on the appropriate district pages, sometimes in more detail or better formatted (to MoS). Many "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" listings are only in the main NYC page. Suggested To Do list:

1. Confirm that info in the See listings is duplicated on district pages (by and large these are the districts of Manhattan) then replace that info with "glosses on the most important stuff" (as Evan put it earlier).

2. Move "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" listings to the district pages and replace them here with something like "Foo has many of NYC's main sites" (as Maj put it earlier).

2a. Need to decide where Chinatown goes. See Talk:New_York_(city)/Manhattan#Chinatown & Little Italy

3. Figure out how to get editors to then expand detailed listings on the district pages rather than adding it back into the main NYC page.

4. Manhattan could do with some work too, partic from See onwards.

I've done some work on NY and districts lately but I'm starting to flag. Any helpers? Nurg 03:22, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Update: April, 2006

I moved detailed parks listings to the Manhattan page a couple of months ago, but I'm uncomfortable with the fact that the list of neighborhoods and almost all the landmarks, museums, and galleries on the "New York (city)" page are Manhattan sights and attractions. Would it be better to move most of those listings to the Manhattan page wholesale and leave a briefer summary and pointer here? The result might be an overly long Manhattan page. I'm not sure what the best course of action is, so I'm posting here so that we can put our minds together and find the best solution.

Michael 03:50, 12 Apr 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further on Neighborhoods

All the neighborhoods listed are in Manhattan. I believe that all of these listings should be removed from the article, with any useful language merged with the linked descriptions of neighborhoods on the Manhattan page. If no-one else does this, I may take care of it at my convenience.

Michael 01:52, 02 Sep 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. We could, of course, add listings for neighborhoods in the other boroughs as well but I don't see any point in having a long listing of neighborhoods. As far as I am concerned, go ahead. I would suggest leaving a general discussion of neighborhoods in the NYC page with examples of a few that are of interest to a tourist.--Wandering 21:03, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

Agreed, all listings should be in district articles, none should be in this one. A good navigation trick is to link to specific neighborhoods in the general descriptions sections of the main city article, e.g., in the buy section mention that SoHo is a good place for shopping. We've done that a lot in the Chicago article if you are looking for examples. Michael, you have been doing really great work on this article today, just wanted to thank you. I'm really glad to see people are taking an interest in fixing up the NYC pages because they really need it! --Peter ^Talk 22:12, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Calendar of Annual Events

I just came here from Wikipedia, where I wrote a new article on the NYC Village Halloween Parade.

I thought about adding this event to the travel page for NYC, but noticed that there is not yet a section devoted to date-specific events.

I think it would be a great idea to add such a section to this article. There are so many things to do while you're here in NYC that only happen once a year, or part of the year. If travelers knew of these events, this page would be more useful to them in planning their trips. Setting up a month-by-month calendar would be the best format.

Other examples: Parades: Macy's Thanksgiving Day, Saint Patrick's Day, various ethnic parades Sports events run during specific seasons Restaurant Week (diners are offered reduced-prive Prix Fixe menus -- very popular)

Well, there are so many. But before I started creating such a section, I thought I'd check in here to get your ideas on format, etc. I can best be reached at the talk page Paul Klenk at Wikipedia.org. (strikethrough per Evan) Paul Klenk

Thanks.

Hi, Paul. Thanks for getting started. We have a page that says where you can stick it, and I believe that annual events go under "Do". If they're only around for part of the year (like the Halloween parade), just set the "opening time" to that date. As a side note, it's probably best to discuss issues having to do with Wikitravel on wikitravel.org; that makes sure that all contributors can see the discussions. --Evan 08:34, 30 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Thanks, Evan, will do.

[edit] A newcomer

I want to apologize for making changes here without looking at the discussion first. I don't think I did any damage to the direction you guys were going. Most of what I did -- not quite all -- had to do with rail transportation. I am confident I was pretty accurate on that topic.

Please feed back if those of you who have been developing this don't like what I did. Also note that I left off "MTA" in my references to Long Island Railroad and Metro North, but left in some references to those services that included the "MTA" as part of the name. I actually am not sure which is preferable, and I think it should be made uniform.

I do want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem

Tom Croke aka Frog One 67.163.249.124 12:13, 27 Oct 2005 (EDT)

[edit] Parks

Perhaps a longterm solution would be to have separate pages on parks for each borough, but for now, I think that all of the information about parks in the "New York (city)" article should be incorporated into the section on parks in the Manhattan article -- because all of the parks that are mentioned are in Manhattan (with Brooklyn's Prospect Park most notable for its absence) -- and then deleted here, with an advisory to look at the page for each borough. I edited the Central Park entry in the Manhattan article, but I am too tired to finish the process now. I may come back to this, or one of you could do it.

Michael 6:01 AM, 14 Jan 2006 (EDT)

[edit] Some copyedits

I did a copyedit of the introduction and "Understand" sections, to cut down on the verbiage and the superlatives. It will be great if someone could go over my changes [1] to see if this ignorant foreigner has changed any meanings.

Also, shouldn't there be a section giving the history of this city? --Ravikiran 06:30, 5 Feb 2006 (EST)

[edit] Pix

can we please get some better pictures!

Yes, I was thinking of a map of the city that shows roads and things? Maybe not though...

[edit] Map?

Uh...oops didn't see that post above.

[Could somebody please include a nice map? I have found some on the internet, but none of the good looking ones are public domain, and the bad looking ones aren't worth it. Would somebody with better skills and maybe more time than I do this, please...Thank you very much.]

[edit] Metropolitan Transit Authority

For the sake of accuracy I had to change that in the article because it was the CIty of New York that took over the IRT and BMT (it already owned the IND) in 1940. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (not Transit) did not come into existance until 1968.

Allan 4/26/2006 15:10

[edit] Listings I removed from the main NYC page

The following is a long list of listings I deleted from the main NYC page. I've moved everything here so that you or I can go through the list a little later and make sure everything is properly listed in the respective district pages. -- Sapphire 02:47, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

[edit][add listing] See

• SONY Wonder Technology Lab, 550 Madison Avenue (212) 833-8100. An interactive hands-on experience of cutting edge technology, sponsored by Sony.
• Cathedral St. John The Divine, [2], Amsterdam Avenue between 110–112th Streets—the world's largest Gothic cathedral, a work in progress for over a century!
• Columbia University, Broadway at 116th Street. [3] One of the most famous institutions of higher education in the world, Columbia is also worth a visit for architecture fans, who will be impressed by the beautiful McKim, Mead, and White campus. Subway: 1 to 116th Street-Columbia University
• Washington Square Park and the famous arch is located in the heart of the Village. Though located in the middle of an affluent neighborhood, the Park attracts a hodgepodge of people.
• World Financial Center, [4] Next to the former Twin Towers; Shopping, dining, events and the Winter Garden all open to the public.
• Chelsea Market, [5] The original Oreo cookie factory now a block-sized market selling gourmet foods, flowers, knick-knacks and offering restaurants, bars, art space and special shows. Has free wireless Internet access throughout and smells like a slice of heaven.
• Time Warner Center at Columbus Circle has the Mandarin Oriental Hotel for dining, drinks, and Chihuly chandeliers. It also has a small, ultra-high end mall with a big Borders Bookstore and Botero sculptures. In the basement is a large Whole Foods Market, and there is seating for eating their salad bar and prepared food items (cheaper than eating in a restaurant). Subway: A, C, 1, B, D trains to Columbus Circle. This is also at one corner of Central Park if you want to explore that.
• James Farley Post Office 421 8th Avenue (between 31st and 33rd Streets). This enormous post office is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Designed by McKim, Mead, and White, it is a great example of Beaux Arts architecture.
• Chrysler Building 405 Lexington Avenue (at 42nd Street). One of the most beautiful and beloved buildings in the world, the Chrysler Building is the epitome of Art Deco architecture. Though you can't go up inside it unless you have business there, you can visit the gorgeous lobby.

[edit] Museums

• Morris-Jumel Mansion 65 Jumel Ter. 212-923-8008. Built in 1765, this is the oldest house on Manhattan Island. It served as George Washington's headquarters in 1776. Currently a museum set on a 1.5-acre park, it features a decorative-arts collection representing the colonial and Revolutionary War periods. Washington's office is among the 12 restored rooms. The mansion is accessible by the C subway line (163rd Street stop) and by the M2, M3, M100, and M101 buses. Morris-Jumel Mansion
• Museum of Television & Radio [6], 25 West 52nd Street. Founded in 1976 to preserve and collect television programs as a service to the public. The museum has expanded, and consists of two museum branches in Los Angeles and New York City. The two museums hold over 100,000 television programs that are available to the public. Its programs provide a historical, artistic, and cultural perspective to television and radio. You may use their library here for the price of admission. They have lots of old shows and a database so you can see if they have what you want. (212) 621-6800
• Museum of Sex, 233 Fifth Avenue at 27th Street, (212) 689-6337 [7]
• Nicholas Roerich Museum 319 W. 107th St. (212) 864-7704. [8] Open Tues–Sun 2–5.

[edit] Factories

• Steinway & Sons Pianos 1 Steinway Place, Long Island City, Queens, 11105. Tours only available online (Not open to the public) (718) 721-2600 Actually, they've started to offer free guided tours during Fall and Spring to see the skilled crafts men at work. Phone ahead, a month in advance is recommended, to reserve a place on these popular tours, and to check the days and times. Steinway Hall 109 West 57th Street, Manhattan, 10019. Open to the public every day with no appointment or admission fee. For hours, call (212) 246-1100. This is the showroom of Steinway & Sons, with sprawling showrooms containing new and reconditioned pianos representing designs from all eras of its manufacture history, including "Art Case" pianos, specially-commissioned limited edition pianos designed by world artists. It was built in 1925 and recently added to the Registry of Historic Buildings. It features a magnificent rotunda, hand painted by Paul Arndt, and works of art by Rockwell Kent, N.C. Wyeth and Charles Chambers displayed throughout. Some of the many recitals taking place each evening are open to the public; inquire within or call the number above.

[edit][add listing] Sleep

These hotels were somewhat randomly deleted. If I had never heard of a hotel I figured it was probably one that traveller's wouldn't seek out. I.e. I've heard of the Library Hotel because of its theme so I left it on the main page. -- Sapphire 02:47, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

Seems a strange way to do things If I had never heard of a hotel I figured it was probably one that traveller's wouldn't seek out. Can one person be so infallible. Looking at the list of deleted hotels I see stalwarts like the Royalton (once hip and trendy), The Milford Plaza ('on broadway... I practically grew up with that jingle), The Lexington (a grand old hotel now owned by Radisson). Deleting The Four Seasons is so strange I won't even comment on it. --Wandering 09:33, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Budget

• Carlton Arms, 160 East 25th at 3rd Ave, (212) 679-0860, [9]. A bit run down but reasonably clean and air conditioned, each room (as well as the common areas) is flamboyantly decorated by a different artist. Rates start at $70/night (tax included) with 10% off if you pay for a week or more up front.
• Try a short-term sublet, [10] Craigslist New York contains many listings by New Yorkers that will sublet a spare room, or their entire apartment while they are away. $40–100+
• Riverside Tower Hotel, [11] 80 Riverside Dr, (800) 724-3136 Tel (212) 877-5200 Fax (212) 873-1400 Ratess start at $94.00. Located near Lincoln Center, Central Park, local museums, and has views of the Hudson River. 120 rooms that include color TV, phone, AC, mini fridge, and private bathrooms.
• Larchmont Hotel in the West Village, 27 W. 11th Street, (212) 989-9333, [12]. Weekday singles starting at $70 up to $125 for weekend Queen (winter rates). Continental breakfast included.

[edit] Mid-range

• Hotel Thirty Thirty, 30 East 30th Street between Madison and Park Ave., [13]. Rates $110+ Stylish but affordable in Murray Hill/Flatiron on a quiet street.
• Ramada Inn East Side, 161 Lexington at 30th Street, (212) 545-1800 . Off the tourist beaten track (quieter) but still convenient to everything. Located near Gramercy Park, Union Square, 5th Ave Shops, the Flatiron district. Shuttles to/from airports.
• Carlton Hotel, on Madison at East 29th Street, (800) 542-1502, [14]. Rates start at $150/night; currently undergoing renovation to be completed July 2005. Beautiful old building, excellent service.
• Milford Plaza Hotel, 270 W. 45th Street, (888) 288 5700 or (212) 869 3600, [15]. Located in the heart of New York City's Broadway Theater District, around the corner from 14 Broadway theaters, and just a short walk from Radio City Music Hall, the Rockefeller Center, Fifth Avenue shopping, Herald Square, Times Square and the Javits Center.
• La Quinta Koreatown, 17 W. 32nd Street near 5th Ave. Heart of Korea Town. Near Empire State Building (800) 567-7720 or (212) 736-1600.
• Ameritania Hotel, Broadway @ 54th Street (near Times Square).
• Millennium Broadway, 145 W. 44th Street (in the heart of the Theater District between Broadway and 6th Ave), [16]. Rates start at about $299 (800) 622-5569

[edit] Splurge

• Hotel Elysee , 60 East 54th Street, New York, NY 10022, (212) 753-1066, [17]. The Hotel Elysee enjoys one of the best locations in Manhattan for both business and pleasure, amidst New York’s most prestigious shops, restaurants and galleries. The country French style Hotel Elysee offers guests free high speed Wi-fi and complimentary refreshments in the Club room 24 hours a day including breakfast in the mornings and wine and cheese receptions on weeknights.

• InterContinental The Barclay New York. 111 EAST 48TH ST, New York. This legendary hotel, located on East 48th Street just steps from Park Avenue, celebrated its 75th anniversary last fall by reclaiming its original Barclay name, following a spectacular multimillion dollar rejuvenation program.
• Omni Berkshire Place , [18]. 21 East 52nd Street at Madison Avenue, New York. Phone: (888) 444-OMNI (6664). Luxury 4-diamond hotel in midtown Manhattan. Located on 52nd Street, the hotel is near Rockefeller Center, St. Patrick's Cathedral and Central Park. The hotel offers 368 guest rooms, all with marble baths, fully stocked refreshment center, and complimentary high speed internet access. Also available to guests are 24 hour concierge service and a complimentary fitness center.
• The Four Seasons Hotel, [19] 57 East 57th Street. Impeccable. Designed by famed architect I.M. Pei. Tel: +1 (212) 758-5700
• The Palace
• Roger Williams Hotel, 131 Madison Avenue at 31st Street, (888) 448-7788, [20]. More upscale, Well decorated but lacking quality in the details.
• Hudson Hotel, 356 West 58th Street New York, New York 10019, Toll Free (800) 697 1791 or (212) 554 6000, Hudson is the next generation of Cheap Chic – stylish, hip and trendy. They even have a hotel soundtrack available to everyone: Hudson Itunes Soundtrack.
• Radisson Lexington Hotel NY, 511 Lexington Avenue at 48th Street, (800) 448-4471 (toll-free) or (212) 755-4400, [21]. A first-class hotel in Manhattan's fashionable Midtown East at the heart of New York City—close to several of New York City's Fortune 500 company offices, as well as many New York City attractions including Times Square and the theater district.
• Royalton Hotel, 44 West 44th Street New York, New York 10036. Royalton's uniquely beautiful Lobby, with its stage-set elegance that runs an entire city block, instantly became the place to see and be seen in New York. Also available, a hotel soundtrack: Royalton Itunes Soundtrack.

[edit] NYPD

I've reverted the following from the "Stay safe" section of this article:

"Though safety from crime comes at a price. The NYPD can be very oppressive at times and have been known to gun down and kill many innocent people in the passed few years. If a NYPD cop stops you for a quality life crime or anything, play it safe and do not argue with the cop, by doing so you might be putting your life and freedom in danger. You can fight the ticket for whatever offense they give you in court. The NYPD goes on many ticket blitz. You can get a ticket for having an open non alcoholic beverage on the subway. You can also get ticketed for sitting on a bench at a playground if you are not accompanying a child. BEWARE OF NYPD, FOR THEY ARE THE MOST AGGRESSIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT IN THE NATION AND USUALLY HURT MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE A DAY."

Recent events notwithstanding, I don't think it's fair to characterize the NYPD, LAPD, or any other American police department as a public danger. -- Ryan 19:54, 27 November 2006 (EST)

Reverted again. It is simply inaccurate to include a boldface, capitalized warning that gives the impression that the NYPD is a brute squad. Any police department in the nation has its share of bad apples, but it isn't fair to disparage an entire police force based on generally isolated incidents. Remember that we are writing a travel guide, and please consider whether your edit is applicable to most travelers. Wikitravel:The traveller comes first. -- Ryan 22:05, 27 November 2006 (EST)

The following comment was moved from User talk:Wrh2

Hello, thank you for your message on my talk page. But I strongly recommend that some warning about the NYPD be included on the NYC page. I lived in the New York City area my whole life. In recent year, the NYPD has become a dangerous force in itself. Just two nights ago, they shot 50 shots at an unarmed car killing one person and severely injuring the other two. Tickets are given out significantly. In the NYC area News, there are always news reports about ridiculous tickets. They give tips on Fox news, NBC news, and ABC news on how you can defend yourself against these unfair ticekts which are frequently given out for very small resons. Some examples:

• You can not place your book bag or shopping bag on a subway seat, there is a hefty penalty and the reason the NYPD gives is that it is obstruction of seating.
• You can not have non alcoholic beverage on the train (examples, coffee, soda). There is a ticket given out for this.
• You can not sit on a bench at a playground if you do not have children playing in that playground. (this was big on the news, senior citizens were being ticketed for this and they were complaining about why they couldnt sit on the benches near their house.)
• The number of killings of unarmed minority males in NYC is incredibly high
• People are stopped on the sidewalk for riding their bicycle and are ticketed heavily.
• In recent surveys, many people view the NYPD as an occupying force in their neighborhood rather than something there to help them.

I am going to add what I had before back in the article but I will take some lines out so that it is less controversial. Jersey Guy 23:11, 27 November 2006 (EST)

I see nothing to indicate that the situation in NYC is substantially different from anywhere else in the US. The part about tickets in particular comes across very strangely in the text where the text seems astonished at the notion that tickets are actually given for illegal behavior. But if they gave out "seating obstruction" tickets on half-empty trains without either a publicity campaign first or adding clear signage, then that should be noted in "Get around" regarding the subway. If they only give out the tickets on trains where most of the seats are in use, then I really don't think a note of any sort is needed since that comes under basic manners. So at this point I don't understand a need for any warning, so I'll put it back to status quo. -- Colin 23:44, 27 November 2006 (EST)

Bad things happen everywhere. Not all police officers are perfect. But the dire warnings currently in the Stay Safe section strike me as exaggerated and not particularly helpful to travelers either. I would suggest that you either supply data to support your claims, or delete them, and focus on practical tips. What are the "basic precautions" you refer to? How can visitors stay safe, aside from avoiding certain neighborhoods which you say they don't visit anyway? Let's share what works for us. --Beenthere 12:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

[edit] climate

Can someone please fill-out the climate subsection in the Understand section? I wouldn't exactly know what the climate is like in Manhattan. --Jr traveller 11:14, 23 December 2006 (EST)

In regards to the climate section, the statement that "The temperature in any season is quite variable and it is not unusual to have a sunny 70°F (21°C) day in January followed by a snowy 25°F (-3°C) day" is just plain wrong. 70 degrees or more in January has only happened about 3 times in 100 years of records, therefore it is highly unusual. I'm going to change it to 50, which is much more reasonable and accurate.

[edit] Get Out section

Is New Haven being oversold as a getaway from New York? "Unparalleled ethnic cuisine" compared to New York? Sure, there are some famous pizzerie there, but for a 1 3/4 hour trip on MetroNorth? And isn't New Haven still kind of high-crime, especially compared to New York? I don't mean to insult the city, but I think it's being overpromoted on a guide to New York. -- Michael 2:00 A.M., 11 Feb 2007 (EDT)

I agree. Definitely not the New Haven I've seen. New Haven has hardly any restaurants let alone Ethnic ones (though the burger was invented there), no beaches within easy reach, what nightlife, and I'm not sure where the hundreds of miles of hiking trails came from. A big oversell. If you'd like to tone it down, go ahead. --Wandering 13:30, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Limo rentals

I removed the following text from this page, because 1) I'm sick of seeing edits back and forth over this and 2) I don't think it's useful to enough travelers. -- Jonboy 17:23, 24 February 2007 (EST)

One alternative to renting a car or hiring a taxi service is to use a limousine service to get around the city. Unlike taxis, limousine may be hired at a fixed rate for an indefinite amount of time and offer services not found with other modes of transportation. Limousines may be rented for day tours, shopping, business travel, and recreation.

• New York Limo, [22].
• New York Limousine, [23].
• New York limousine Service, [24].

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I lived in suburban NY, renting a limo was, oddly enough, the cheapest reasonable way of getting to the airport (JFK). The "limo" in question was also not a 16-wheeled hot pink Cadillac with a hot tub, but a rather ordinary car. Assuming this odd state of affairs hasn't changed, it might still be worth a mention...? Jpatokal 04:46, 25 February 2007 (EST)

We've blacklisted aa alimos because they kept doing stuff like substituting their URL for the Airport's URL. So maybe we could restore the others. -- Colin 13:52, 25 February 2007 (EST)

I vote we remove the section titled "Limousines". There are too many limo companies in New York and it seems a bit unfair to list a few. I've included a look at the yellow pages or ask at your hotel thing in the taxi section (limos belong there since outside of Manhattan below 96th you can hail them everywhere) and that should be enough. --Wandering 10:16, 15 June 2007 (EDT)

[edit] Budget at 250 dollars a night?

An anon user added the price at the end of the following listing

• Comfort Inn Manhattan New York City Hotel, 42 West 35th Street, (212) 947-0200, [25]. In the heart of the Big Apple, close to Fashion District, Macy's, the Fifth Avenue shopping area, and standing tall amidst the Empire State Building, Madison Square Garden and Pennsylvania Station, the Rockefeller Center, St. Patrick's Cathedral, Times Square and the Theatre District, Radio City Music Hall and Javits Convention Center. US$250+ per night

I know that this is NYC, but does Comfort inn come at $250? And if it does, is it still budget?

Update: I checked the site. It is in fact in that range. So does this go to Mid-range or splurge? — Ravikiran 08:58, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I'm fine with both, when I stayed at NYC, I had to stay at a budget place (109 a night). But 250 can't be budget, mid-range is around 150-250$s and this is 250$ + .... Upamanyuwikitravel • ( Talk ) • ( Travel ) • 09:06, 7 March 2007 (EST)

[edit][add listing] Eat

I'm going to reorganize this section by focusing it on the foods of New York, Restaurant mores (including tipping and - lack of - dress codes), Ethnic restaurant areas, street food, and DIY options. The individual listings will disappear into the district pages. Comments?--Wandering 14:23, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm a little shocked to see that there are still listings on this article. Glad to hear you are taking an interest in cleaning this up. --Peter ^Talk 14:57, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

Please go ahead! The New York city article has long been a disgrace to Wikitravel. A lot needs to be done here. — Ravikiran 01:03, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Temporary dump of Eat listings. I'll insert them into district pages by and by but - everyone - feel free to insert there and delete here. --Wandering 14:32, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Restaurants cleaned-up and inserted into districts.--Wandering 17:12, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Markets

• Whole Foods Market [26] with their 3 Manhattan outlets makes for a great eating option—all your groceries are available, of course, but each store has great hot bars and salad / sandwich counters for do-it-yourself service... Hand-washing facilities and comfortable seating is also available at the Columbus Circle store (where you can even see business meetings going on....!) Hot bars change for each meal of the day and day of the week.... Prices are $6.99 a pound for whatever you want to dish into your box, then weigh up at the register.
• 10 Columbus Circle (under the Time Warner building) [27], tel 212.823.9600, fax 212.823.9610 fax, open daily 8am–10pm
• 250 7th Avenue at 24th Street [28], tel 212.924.5969, fax 212.924.9923, open daily 8am–10pm
• 4 Union Square South [29], tel 212.673.5388, fax 212.673.5393 fax, open daily 8am–10pm

• Greenmarkets New York boasts an impressive array of greenmarkets. Local farmers bring their produce, meats, cheeses, jellies, and baked goods into the city several times a week, selling at various locations around town. Though the prices are higher than you would pay at a cheap supermarket, the quality is unmistakably better. Far and away the most popular greenmarket is the one in Union Square, which happens on Mondays, Wednesday, Fridays, and Saturdays.

• Chelsea Market 75 Ninth Avenue (at 16th Street). A former Nabisco factory, Chelsea Market is a one-stop eating hotspot, with a wide array of small shops selling food to take away or eat in. The building is lovely on the inside, especially on hot, muggy days.

• Citarella 2135 Broadway (at 75) (other locations as well). This high-end fish market is also a great spot for fine cheeses, foie gras, and the like. If you don't want to leave the hotel, they deliver for $5.

• Dean and Deluca 560 Broadway (at Prince Street). Dean and Deluca is like Zabar's for the SoHo set. Great food, fabulous espresso, high prices.

• Foodworks Flatiron 10 West 19Th NY, NY 10011 (23rd and 6th avenue). Excellent gourmet and health food with reasonable prices and a nice variety of high quality foods.

• Morningside Park Farmers Market [30] Corner of 110th St. and Manhattan Ave. Features NY state fruits and vegetables, baked goods, and herbs. Produced by Community Markets [31]

It should be noted that there is a grocery/delicatessen on almost every corner of the city.

[edit] primospot.com

While primospot does not look commercial (no ads for now), this is a promotional spot. I'm not sure how useful the site is, but including it would probably be ok if it does not violate the external link policy.--Wandering 10:13, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

On second thoughts, not very useful. It doesn't even keep track of alternate side parking regulations.--Wandering 22:19, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Keeps track of alt. side suspensions now.

[edit] Giving to subway panhandlers

I don't think it is the place of a guide book to be a moral authority on whether or not to give to subway panhandlers. Also, it is definitely not a 'generally accepted' viewpoint that a) the money will be spent on drugs or booze and b) one should not give to panhandlers. Quite the contrary, actually. Most New Yorkers will give on occasion (I almost always do) and subway panhandlers would not exist if giving them money was not a general thing. It is not unsafe to do, it is not illegal to give, so and I don't see how this is a safety issue.--Wandering 23:00, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

To the contrary, Wandering, it most certainly is the place of the Wikitravel guide to give advice (and even pass judgement) on activities that are unsafe or unnecessary or just outright scams. And when you've ridden the same subway line long enough and seen the same panhandler rehersing the same line everyday, had aggresive panhandlers follow you around asking for money, perhaps you'd understand the "scam" aspect of this. Of course there are the legitimately needy in New York - which is where giving to legitimate charities comes in. In the 1990's the MTA had an aggresive campaign to discourage begging on the subways (see for example http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E03E0DA1E31F935A25752C0A962958260 ). As for as your take that "panhandlers would not exist of giving them money was not a general thing" I wholeheartedly agree. Public education combined with aggresive enforcement is how NYC has dealt with panhandlers, "squeegee men", 3-card monte hustlers, and other once unavoidable annoyances. Wikipedia is public education. People can do what they wish with the advice we give here, but to imply we should not give any advice at all is plain irresponsible.SONORAMA 09:53, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

The point, SONORAMA, is that everyone has a different idea of what is morally right and what is not. I, for example, feel that it is not just ok but also good to give to subway panhandlers (and to panhandlers and beggars of all sorts). Of course, I also agree with your comments about legitimate charities but feel that both forms of charity have their place in society. If it were unsafe to give on the subway, I would have no complaints about including a warning against giving, but, it is not unsafe and the issue seems to be purely a moral one. It is not the place of wikitravel to choose one morality over another. Still, if you feel strongly about this, I'll let your current wording stand (can't complain about that!). And, don't get me started on how I miss the 3-card monte players! --Wandering 11:45, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

OK Wandering, sounds like we've reached an agreement on the wording. Regarding begging, see also the travel topic at http://wikitravel.org/en/Begging Does 3 card monte still go on? I last saw that hustle around 1999 and have since left the city. Maybe people have wisened up -- though my hunch is that, like infectious diseases, these types of scams never really go away.SONORAMA 14:32, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

I don't think I've seen any three card monte since the mid 1990s. I used to work in midtown and there were quite a few on 7th Ave north of Times Square. One day, a police bus arrived, arrested them all, stayed there for two weeks cleaning up, and they never returned. Must be around somewhere. There is always someone where there's a buck to be made!--Wandering 09:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)

[edit] THIS ARTICLE IS HORRIBLE

Especially compared to the Chicago article.

New York (city) is also a ridiculous title of the page. No one, ANYWHERE refers to it in this fashion. If there is ever a time there is some confusion between the name of the city and the name of the state, the proper term is "New York City". There are countless examples of this. Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously does not live here.

And that is the real problem. I was reading through the Chicago articles and it was obviously written by someone who lives in and loves Chicago. For some reason, lots of folks who know nothing of New York City seem to chime in, like the above discussion of subway laws. Who cares about the morality of giving to panhandlers? It's illegal! If you actually took the subway, you'd see the signs telling you that!

So please, if you don't know anything about New York City, don't edit this article!!!

Sorry you feel that way! I'll quote from our "about" article:

To create Wikitravel we use a tool (or a process, or a technology) called Wiki which lets any Internet reader create, update, edit, and illustrate any article on the Web site. We all share our pieces of knowledge, edit them, distill them, and assemble them into a pleasing and cohesive whole. The more people that use the Edit link, the better Wikitravel becomes.

Chicago just got a major facelift, and hopefully someone will make NYC their project someday soon too. Until then, we'll continue improving it piece by piece... and you're welcome to jump in and help – cacahuate ^talk 19:19, 4 March 2008 (EST)

I'd just like to add that the Chicago articles are way better than the NYC articles because Chicago is simply superior. (Neener neener neener.) --Peter ^Talk 21:21, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

[edit] SPORTS

We need a section talking about New York sports...we all know its the best sports city in the land. LETS GO YANKEES! LETS GO RANGERS! LETS GO JETS! LETS GO KNICKS!

come on! Sports need to be recognized on this page!

[edit] Economy

I took out "the Big Apple" because no New Yorker calls it that; it's considered the badge of cluelessness and we don't want our visitors embarassed. Also, what's "gross metropolitan product"? Is that for New York City alone, or the whole metropolitan area? If the later, this should say so, to avoid leavig the misleading impression that the city alone generates that.--Beenthere 18:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)