This article needs more pictures and a map.
Wow! This is an amazing article! Nice job, whoever you are. --Evan 17:24, 8 Dec 2003 (PST)
- OK half the article is on pronunciation and knowing which way is "up". Who's writing this article, tourists? New Orleans is not a foreign city and people that live here should be the ones writing the article. 220.127.116.11 14:24, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
- plunge forward! – cacahuate talk 14:33, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
The Mystic Order of the Krewe of Chartreuse
To: The Staff of Wikitravel
Thank you ever so much for the kind blurb about our walking Krewe. For the record we' d like to clarify to all non-New Orleanians that we are NOT the Mardi Gras parade that you see in movies. We are what is referred to as a "Walking Krewe" or "Walking Club" meaning we do not throw trinkets from floats. That requires a city permit. We however march throughout the French Quarter on Mardi Gras day to our own beat, like so many other marching clubs, dressed in costume, soaking in the sights, sounds and food, as well as bringing our own party wherever we stop and go. Be warned: If you're looking for the Girls Gone Wild Mardi Gras, that isn't us. Plenty of that on Bourbon Street. In fact they have their own balcony now. Ours is a different type of debauchery, thank you very much.
For all those interested in joining us on Mardi Gras day, please refer to our Yahoo club listing. Serious inquiries only.
Thank you again for the mad props. See you all in a chartreuse blur come Fat Tuesday.
The Minister of Blasphemy
Krewe of Chartreuse
While I agree with our esteemed Minister of Blasphemy, I must point out one small error in his letter. The Krewe Banner (a ball and cross on a green field) can be seen early on Carnival morning as the Mad Marchers of Luridis, a subkrewe, march a semirandom path from the begining of the parade route to the Vieaux Carre. The Krewe of Chartreuse is a unique marching club in that it's banner and members can be seen throughout the day from 8am till well into the evening. As we say in the Krewe, its not a sprint, its a marathon.
The Loud Founder, Capt. of The Mad MArchers of Luridis
Krewe of Chartreuse
My compliments on the article as well. I spent last winter in an apartment in da quarter and you have pretty well captured the essence of it. William M Goetsch 12:16, 18 May 2004 (EDT)
Time for districts?
OK, so, this page has got really big, and it's apparent that there's some need to separate out the districts. I propose that we break it up according to the Wikitravel:Huge city article template. Sound good? --Evan 17:04, 24 May 2004 (EDT)
- Sounds fine to me. I was thinking that the French Quarter would probably evolve into a seperate article first with more info. I guess it is time for "New Orleans/French Quarter". Should shorter sections on other parts of town be split off too now? -- Infrogmation 17:46, 24 May 2004 (EDT)
- I've gotten at least a start on subpages for all the parts of the city of interest to visitors, I think. Some of the major suburbs outside of the city itself need similar treatment, like Metairie (many conventions billed as "in New Orleans" are actually held out in Metarie). Hm, should an important suburb that is not legally part of the city be a sub-page (eg, "New Orleans/Metarie") or just seperate (as "Metarie")? -- Infrogmation
- So here's the way I see it: we do big region article for the "Greater New Orleans area", and include cities like Metairie, New Orleans, etc. We have districts for parts of New Orleans proper, like the Vieux Carre and Bucktown. Lastly, we have some information in New Orleans#Get out about the nearby visit-worthy suburbs.
- We've done this with San Francisco and the Bay Area (California) to good effect. The Bay Area is a region, it has cities in it, including SF, and SF has some districts.
- Sound good? --Evan 00:45, 14 Jun 2004 (EDT)
- Yes, sounds fine. That'd be a good place to list things like the attractions on the North Shore of Lake Pontchartrain and nearby plantaions as well. P.S.: For the record, "Bucktown" is one of the places that should be mentioned that is outside of the city limits, being across the line into Jefferson Parish from West End (which is mentioned in New Orleans/Lakeview and Lakefront). Cheers, -- Infrogmation 01:39, 14 Jun 2004 (EDT)
How can I make this article okay?
I'd like to get reccomendations for getting New Orleans up to adiquate status so it can be removed from Wikitravel:Articles needing attention.
For correctly applying template, perhaps someone can show me how on a sample subpage, like New Orleans/Mid-City?
One thing I have a particular opinion about is that live music DOES NOT belong as a part of "Drink"! I guess it could be a sub-section of "To do", but so could "Eat" and "Drink". I think at least in places where music is an important part of the culture and a key reason for numerous visitors coming, it should be allowed to be a seperate heading. If this would need some modification of policy, where should I bring this up for discussion? Thanks for any help! -- Infrogmation 12:37, 13 Jun 2004 (EDT)
- You should bring it up on the Wikitravel talk:Article templates page, or perhaps on the Wikitravel talk:District article template page. One thing to consider is putting live music venues under sub-headings in Do or Drink. Or, if you could come up with another name for Drink (like Party, Go out, Step out, etc.), that would encompass not only bars and nightclubs but also other nightlife venues, well, that'd be real great. --Evan 13:13, 13 Jun 2004 (EDT)
- OK, so, I took a poke at New Orleans/Mid-City. Mostly what had to be done was make sure it used the Wikitravel:District article template and the right listings formats.
- You may want to look at these Manual of style pages: Huge city article template, restaurant listings, attraction listings, bar listings, and Accommodation listings. Most of the work that needs to be done for the NO pages is a) putting in the right sections and b) changing the listings styles.
- Lastly, most of the listings for NO are incomplete (no phone number, no hours, no rough prices, etc.). Don't worry about that right now -- we can fill that stuff in later. --Evan 14:44, 13 Jun 2004 (EDT)
- Thanks. -- Infrogmation 00:48, 14 Jun 2004 (EDT)
With a bit of delay, I finally brought up a proposal for officially allowing a "Live music" (or something similar) heading at Wikitravel talk:Article templates. -- Infrogmation 13:15, 1 Jul 2004 (EDT)
Passing on a good response:
I pointed out this site to someone who recently moved to the New Orleans area, and got an enthusiastic email saying in part:
- " This is great! I wish I had ad the URL when I first moved here [...] I think yours is the most cohesive one I've run across so far."
Yay for Wikitravel! -- Infrogmation 13:15, 1 Jul 2004 (EDT)
Festivals should be under See or Do (I am not sure which, there's a list "what goes where" it may list festivals). Not sure about music... Probably under "Do" as in "going out to clubs" etc. At any rate, it should be called "Listen" (you "listen" to music). -- Nils 01:26, 23 Jul 2004 (EDT)
- Thanks for the feedback. You might wish to suggest the "Listen" category in the discussion on Wikitravel talk:Article templates too. -- Infrogmation 14:52, 24 Jul 2004 (EDT)
- Suburbs, like Kenner, Metairie, Chalmette, maybe Slidell, Northshore, Westbank
- Festivals: JazzFest most importantly, also French Quarter Fest, Essence Festival, Satchmo Summer Fest
- More & better hotel listings
- The Wyndhams on the main page should be sorted out into the relevant districts. Jpatokal 09:13, 1 Feb 2005 (EST)
- Done. -- Infrogmation 17:13, 2 Feb 2005 (EST)
I removed the recent addition of bars to the front page. Most of those were already in the neighborhood pages; any additional info I added in the appropriate place. (Also added Molly's at the Market in the Quarter listing... alas, not just for locals anymore...) -- Infrogmation 15:14, 29 Oct 2004 (EDT)
So, Maj, Amita and I were in New Orleans at the beginning of this week, and we found the city to be in very good shape. We spent most of our time in the French Quarter, CBD, Faubourg, and we saw some reconstruction but otherwise little sign of Katrina. Outside the city center there were a lot of damaged buildings, downed trees, and blocked roads. I've tried to revise the warning box to reflect that NO is probably OK for most visitors; comments or changes encouraged. --Evan 14:18, 24 March 2006 (EST)
- I there anyone who can confirm that things, at least in the most-visited areas, are back to normal? I'm wondering if our warning is starting to be a little out of date. Maj 19:31, 14 November 2006 (EST)
- I think the warning box is no longer needed; I agree with its recent removal. -- Infrogmation 11:05, 19 November 2006 (EST)
I reverted the addition of a high crime warning box to the article. Certainly there is a horrible problem, I think the article already deals with it adiquately and frankly, discussing in the "Stay Safe" section accurately noting that most of the violence is in parts of the city away from those frequented by most vistors, with more detailed warnings at specific districts articles. -- Infrogmation 19:59, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
- Agreed. Gorilla Jones 21:22, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
New Orleans district boundaries
I've been trying to make a nice WT-style map for New Orleans, using boundaries given in the district articles, at Wikipedia, or by the GNOCDC . So far so good, but I'm having trouble figuring out the boundaries for Mid City-Esplanade and Lakeview-Lakefront. It also looks like there might be leftover parts of the city that we are not covering, and we should try to figure out how to incorporate them into some sort of coverage. --Peter Talk 18:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
- Very well done, thanks. Yes, the "Lakeview-Lakefront" and "Mid-City and Esplanade Ridge" are a bit broad lumping together a few smaller neighborhoods per the GNODC boundaries (but in a manner that is understandable and in some use locally). For Mid-City, roughly the area shown at , but rather than worry about those jagged edges I'd say color it in as a roughly as from the back of the "Carrollton" section to the back of the "Tremé", from the Jeff Parish line (at left) to the red line of the I-610 that splits City Park. For the "Lakeview and Lakefront", the areas designated as "Lakeview" and "West End" at , plus all the area little neighborhoods above that actually touch Lake Pontchartrain, from the Parish Line to the Industrial Canal. (Looking at the GNODC site, I see they put City Park and the Cemeteries at the end of Canal Street in "Lakeview" rather than Mid-City, but I think they should be left where they are in the Mid-City article, as that is how locals refer to the area (at least the "Front" section of City Park where the Museum of Art and other attractions are), as well as it is adjacent to and accessible by the same transit lines as the other Mid-City listings, whereas "Lakeview" proper is not and some distance away and of a different charachter.) -- Infrogmation 22:57, 11 February 2011 (EST)
- OK, so we should include what the GNODC is calling Gentilly in the Lakeview-Lakefront article, I take it. The one thing left is what to do with the area east of Mid-City and north of Bywater—basically St Roch, St Claude, Florida, and Desire . --Peter 06:20, 15 February 2011 (EST)
- I've gone ahead and created a "finalized" map, calling that left over portion New Orleans/St Roch-Florida. Don't let there be any worries over whether that will be able to sustain an article—I will write one shortly. I'm not sure that's the best name, though, but I've got nothing better. --Peter Talk 19:41, 1 June 2011 (EDT)
- Any way you could make the Mid-city and Esplanade Ridge area a less watery color? texugo 09:44, 2 June 2011 (EDT)
- Done. --Peter Talk 18:05, 2 June 2011 (EDT)
- Looks nice! texugo 23:03, 2 June 2011 (EDT)
Always fun to track, even if the vast amounts of potential content will keep a star article far over the horizon. --Peter Talk 22:53, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
Districts yet again
I've done some work on the New Orleans/St Roch-Florida article and some of the other great recent contributions by User:Peterfitzgerald -- thanks for all the great work! Thanks to User:Eco84 too!
I request that the maps regarding what is presently called "New Orleans/St Roch-Florida" to also include the area between here and Treme, on the river side of Broad, into this area. A related issue is retitling the article accordingly. Some variation on "7th Ward, St Roch and Florida" was my first thought, but perhaps something like "7th, 8th, and Upper 9th Wards" might be simpler. Other thoughts?
A perhaps more involved district issue is that I think we're getting to the point where we'll need a Gentilly section article for dividing things up in a sensible way. A Gentilly article was something I had in mind but never got around to pre-Katrina; afterwards for a long time there didn't seem to be any need since very little had reopened in the area. I'd suggest "Gentilly" to include the following areas for our purposes: 1) The area on the "Lakeview and Lakefront" map Image:Lakeview and Lakefront map.png east of Wisner/Bayou St. John and South of Robert E. Lee. 2)On Image:Mid-City New Orleans map.png, the bits south of Gentilly Road, east of St. Bernard Avenue, and north of I-610. 3) On Image:St Roch-Florida map.png, the sliver north of I-10 to the west of the Industrial Canal. Other suggestions?
Thanks folks! Infrogmation 01:13, 27 June 2011 (EDT)
- I've been bold and begun the process, moving "St Roch-Florida" to New Orleans/7th, 8th, and Upper 9th Wards. I have no knowledge or experience, however, about how to redo maps. Infrogmation 11:24, 27 June 2011 (EDT)
- I left a comment at Talk:New Orleans/7th, 8th, and Upper 9th Wards. But no worries about the maps—I'll take care of them. (I'll try to tonight, but will be beach camping and then off in the mountains throughout the next seven days! --Peter Talk 19:25, 27 June 2011 (EDT)
- Thanks (no need to rush if you've got special off-line stuff going on! Happy travels!) -- Infrogmation
- Also, with Gentilly, I'm not sure there would be enough there to sustain an article. I've come up with all of about three (tasty) eat listings and two motels, and that's it for the area! --Peter Talk 19:41, 27 June 2011 (EDT)
- Yeah, pickings in Gentilly are still pretty scarce. Gentilly was never on the tourist radar, and there's a lot less stuff there now than there was before the disaster in 2005. I know Chinese Tea Garden is back open, and heard some good things about Big Shirley's just around the corner on Elysian Fields, in case they weren't on your list. I could probably scare up a few more things (including at least one quirky "do"). I haven't driven around there in about a year, so next time I have some free drive time I can take a fresh inventory. My point is, however, that it seems we have maps to fill out the entire city, whether there are a lot of visitor attractions or not. Since that seems to be the given, I want, as much as is practical, for the city to be divided up in way that makes sense for both locals and visitors. I don't see how making the Gentilly area anything but itself would be anything but an ugly fit at best. Infrogmation 20:52, 27 June 2011 (EDT)
I was able to check out things in Gentilly earlier today. While of course it was far from a complete inventory, it quickly became clear that there's no problem with too few things open or accessible to have a district guide. I have a draft for a Gentilly article at User:Infrogmation/Gentilly draft. Unless there is some particular opposition, I will move it in the article space within the next day or so. In the mean time, other editors interested are welcome to edit to improve this draft article. Infrogmation 00:25, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
- One remaining issue, I think, is agreeing on the boundaries for when we redraw the maps. I proposed details in the section above. It occurs to me that there is also another reasonable variation: basically the same, but extend "Gentilly" out to the lakefront, including all the area between Wisner/Bayou St. John and the Industrial Canal on the lakefront. Attractions now in the Lakeview and Lakefront article which would be moved into "Gentilly" would be the University of New Orleans and the Hellenic Center. I have no strong preference between these two options; they both seem sensible enough to me. If we go for the second option, however, the "Lakeview and Lakefront" article should be retitled; I think "Lakeview and West End" would be the best name for the article with revised boundaries. -- Infrogmation 00:35, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
- After thinking about it over night, I really think option B including the UNO area in Gentilly is better. Since the "Districts" map will need to be redone anyway, any objection? -- Infrogmation 18:45, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
- Option B sounds good to me, but what do we call it? Still Gentilly? And do we then rename "Lakeview and Lakefront" simply "Lakeview?" --Peter Talk 20:50, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
- Yes; still Gentilly. Some definitions of Gentilly extend it all the way to the lake for everything between Bayou St. John and the Industrial Canal, so that's cool. For "Lakeview and Lakefront" I suggested "Lakeview and West End" above. With more consideration, I'll suggest "Lakeview and Lakeshore". Technically, the area would be something like "Lakeview, West End, Lake Vista, and Lakeshore", which I think is unnecessarily awkward. Since West End is no longer the multiple restaurant and party destination it was when I started the district article back before Katrina, there is no particular reason to play up West End now. Lakeshore is the section with Chateau Coffee Cafe and a couple other places, plus the name is pretty self explanatory for visitors who don't know the area: "Lakeshore? That sounds like there must be the shore of a lake there." Plus I think the name "Lakeview and Lakeshore" has a nice symmetrical sound :-) Infrogmation 22:44, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
Two new articles: Gentilly, Saint Bernard Parish
I went ahead and moved the Gentilly article into article space. Welcome to New Orleans/Gentilly. I really couldn't think of any reason not to other than that the districts map will have to be redone, and I think having the info available to users outweighs the map consideration. BTW, when the districts map is redone, can we please change the order of the listing of the districts, at least to list the "7th, 8th and Upper 9th Ward" article ABOVE the "Lower 9th Ward" article. In other news, I've also created a Saint Bernard Parish page today. Infrogmation 18:39, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
Districts maps & boundaries redux
Since User:Peterfitzgeralds has been doing the great work on district maps, I've left him my thoughts on his talk page at User_talk:Peterfitzgerald#New_Orleans_districts. Of course if anyone else interested wishes to offer comments, that is very welcome. Infrogmation 16:48, 2 July 2011 (EDT)
- Copied here from User_talk:Peterfitzgerald#New_Orleans_districts:
I wanted to give you some more feed back on my perspective on useful New Orleans districts boundaries, since you've been doing great work. I especially appreciate the maps, since that's something I've felt was needed, but didn't know how to do myself.
I would have been much more aggressive in creating district articles if I'd known you'd be creating maps to include every bit of the city with no "grey areas" not included. Since that's what we're doing, I wish to make suggestions:
1) The split off of a Gentilly article I've already mentioned. Again, I think extending it to the lake is best, everything between Bayou St. John and the Industrial Canal. I've resisted moving the UNO etc to the Gentilly article until a new map is ready, but can do so before if you prefer.
2) Having the Bienville Projects on Basin Street as part of "Mid-City" is one of the more obviously absurd things in the present configuration. I suggest adding the square between Canal, I-10, the French Quarter, and Treme to Treme. I'll mention it is not technically Treme, but it is much closer than Mid-City. The one thing of interest to some I can think of off hand is the three remaining buildings from Storyville. Since they're in a dangerous area next to a housing project I'll advise an abundance of caution, but since they're something the hearty few history buffs/urban explorers insist on seeing if they can, IMO better to list them.
3) Split off an "Audubon and University District" article from Uptown, including Audubon Zoo & Park, Tulane & Loyola Universities, and the area right around them. This is something I had in mind doing eventually way back before Katrina. Since we're about to "redraw the map", how about we do this too at the same time? I can knock out the "Audubon and University District" article pretty quickly any time I have a couple hours of free time. In addition to the material now in "Uptown", there are a number of restaurants and shops around the park and universities to add. I'd extend the area back to include the cluster of businesses around Calhoun & Miro, just across Claiborne from the back side of Tulane. (I see you've already discovered one of them, "Naked Pizza". One of a couple there worth mentioning, but don't belong in "Mid-City".) I'd suggest the boundaries include the Park & Universities and area around them with the following boundaries: From the Mississippi River to Lowerline Street (BTW, I applaud your awareness of subtleties in putting the border of Carrollton there rather than on Broadway!), back on Lowerline to Claiborne Avenue; continuing back on Broadway to Fontainebleau. Fontainebleau to State, then riverwards to Claiborne. Claiborne to the River along Calhoun Street.
I think that will result in a good solid districts division that should hold us for some time. (I don't think there's anywhere near enough reason to create a Broadmoor and Gert Town district, nor to subdivide Eastern New Orleans-- though several years from now hey, one never knows.) Red beans & ricely, Infrogmation 16:44, 2 July 2011 (EDT)
- Ah, one more thing: The order of the districts. I think it makes sense to have the French Quarter first and the CBD second as we do, since they're the two most important for visitors. I propose after that first going upriver, then downriver, then progressively "back of town" something like this: 1) French Quarter. 2) Central Business District. 3) Central City. 4) Uptown. 5) Audubon and University. 6) Carrollton. 7) Marigny. 8) Bywater. 9) Treme. 10) 7th, 8th, and Upper 9th Wards. 11) Lower 9th Ward. 12) Mid-City. 13) Lakeview and Lakeside. 14) Gentilly. 15) Eastern New Orleans. What do you think? -- Infrogmation 17:00, 2 July 2011 (EDT)
- Thanks for the new map! I've gotten a start on the New Orleans/Audubon and University article, and went ahead and put Image:New Orleans map test.png in the New Orleans article and rearranged districts per discussion. I'm not sure how to do the color coding, so I didn't do that. I'm pretty happy with your map. I think it's fine for our purposes, and looks great. A couple of minor points if you happen to do an update some time: 1)What you have labeled as "Bayou Bienvenue" is actually the MRGO/Intracoastal Waterway Canal. The Bayou Bienvenue is the squiggly line along the border of New Orleans and St. Bernard Parish. 2)Thanks for following my suggestions for boundaries of Audubon & University, but looking at how it all comes together I'd add the little bit on the river side of Fontainbleau to the border of Carrollton to the neighborhood, just to eliminate a dubious "tooth" of land which is added to Mid-City on the map. As no mentioned attractions are in this space, that's just a minor mater of aesthetics. 3) If you do decide to redo the map, I'm somewhat tempted to fine tune the border between Mid-City and Gentilly as well, but since that's a question locals debate and the borders shown are neat, easily understood, and seem adequate for our purposes, on second thought I think I'll pass. Thanks again! Cheers, Infrogmation 14:54, 9 July 2011 (EDT)
- All of these changes make perfect sense to me, with the one exception of the order of the districts. I think it's more useful to the traveler to have them (roughly) in order of "travel importance," especially since the map will already make the geographical order clear. From my perspective, that would be:
- 1) FQ, 2) CBD, 3) Marigny, 4) Uptown, 5) Tremé, 6) Audubon & University, 7) Carrollton, 8) Midtown, 9) Bywater, 10) Lower 9th, 11) Algiers, 12) Lakeview & Lakeside, 13) Gentilly, 14) E New Orleans, 15) 7th, 8th, & Upper 9th Wards.
- Alternatively, as this list is getting long enough to the point where it might be a bit intimidating to someone unfamiliar with the city, we could group the districts as done at Washington, D.C.#Districts (or Chicago#Districts, for that matter). Natural groups, to me at least, would be 1) FQ; 2) CBD; 3) Marigny, Bywater, 7th-8th-Upper 9th Wards, Lower 9th Ward; 4) Uptown, Audubon & University, Carrolton; 5) Midtown, Central City, Tremé; 6) Lakeview & Lakeside, Gentilly, E New Orleans; 7) Algiers. Actually, the more I think about it, this does seem to me to be the best way to move forward—15 is a really long list of exotic names for the uninitiated, and we have had complaints from readers in the past about long, overwhelming district lists. --Peter Talk 18:20, 16 July 2011 (EDT)
- The second of those two suggestions (the Washington D.C. and Chicago style) looks good to me. First thoughts for generalized names per your list: 3) "Downriver" (local tradition would suggest "Downtown", but that would likely tend to be confused by some people with the CBD) 4)Uptown 5)"Midtown" (what you said, I presume referring to Mid-City, but seems descriptive, even though it's a neologism for New Orleans) 6) Lakeside. Cheers, Infrogmation 20:19, 16 July 2011 (EDT)
Okay, I've started a draft of the proposed reworking of the New Orleans districts at User:Infrogmation/New Orleans Districts. Suggestions and edits from others are welcome. I resisted coining a neologism "Midtown" for section 5, instead opting for the more generic "Central". (On third thought, maybe this is too close to or potentially confusing with the "Central City" neighborhood -- other suggestions? "Mid New Orleans"? I'm trying to avoid a neologism but at the moment that doesn't seem easy.)
While working on this I noticed a couple more things about the map that could be tweaked if a new version is made: 1)What is labeled as "Inner Harbor Canal" and "Industrial Canal" is all one canal. I believe "Inner Harbor Navigation Canal" is the "official" name, but locals almost universally simply call it "the Industrial Canal", so I suggest we do likewise. 2)There are parks along the Lake Pontchartrain shore all the way from the Jefferson Parish line to the Industrial Canal. I think coloring green all of the sliver between the lake and the northern most streets shown on the map would be a close enough representation of this. -- Infrogmation 11:21, 17 July 2011 (EDT)
- Another suggested change in the map: adjust the southern boundary of Central City with Uptown. I suggest having that boundary be along Carondelet Street, that is 1 block on the north side of St. Charles. ( I understand that the little bit included as "Central City" on the south side of St. Charles probably followed a City Planning District map based on census tracts, but this inclusion is objected to by locals. People in that area will say they live in the Lower Garden District, not Central City. More importantly, the map may suggest to some visitors that part of the St. Charles Streetcar route goes through a "dangerous" neighborhood, which is not the case. It's certainly "Uptown" architecturally and culturally. Most locals will say "Central City" starts somewhere on the back side (away from the river, north) of St. Charles; I think the simple line at Carondelet will be good enough for our purposes.) Infrogmation 11:40, 17 July 2011 (EDT)
- Done. --Peter Talk 13:35, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
- Thanks again for your great work! Changes incorporated into "Districts" section of article. Infrogmation 19:32, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
I noticed Peter mention that the lead could use expansion. I hope you all don't think it too forward, especially since I've never been to Louisiana, but I gave it a shot. I'm not wedded to any of the wording, please feel free to punch it up even further. I know it's a little disjointed right now, but I tried to toss in a few musical references and touch on the most important parts of New Orleans culture. LtPowers 22:12, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
- That's definitely a good start. Off the top of my weary head, with a view to adding a bit more structure, I think the most important things to hit on would be music, festivals and endless parties, spirituality, and the food! --Peter Talk 22:26, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
Removal of term "Cajun" from lead
Can someone explain this edit to me? Obviously not all Nawlins food is Cajun, but isn't that one of the cuisines it's known for? LtPowers 21:20, 29 August 2011 (EDT)
- Great lead, you should get a job in marketing! (if you don't already have :D) --globe-trotter 21:50, 29 August 2011 (EDT)
- I suspect the editor is trying to make the point that Louisiana Creole is every bit as much the distinctive cuisine of New Orleans, as is Cajun? Bit of an issue with foodies, I know.--burmesedays 22:07, 29 August 2011 (EDT)
- I'm fine with changing it to "Creole cuisine", but changing it to "New Orleans cuisine" is tautological. LtPowers 09:40, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
- The point is that Cajun cuisine is not from New Orleans. It is from Acadiana. There are a few places in town to get good Cajun food, just as there are places in the city to get good French, Italian, Central American, Vietnamese, etc; but it is an import not from here and with no particular roots in New Orleans culinary history. Infrogmation 16:01, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
- It's absurd to think that Cajun influence ends at the city limits. The two are inextricably linked in the public imagination: where do you go for Cajun food? New Orleans. However, in the interest of compromise, would "Creole" work better for you? As I said above, calling the cuisine of New Orleans "New Orleans cuisine" is tautological. LtPowers 16:53, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
- Sure, Cajun influence has come into the city limits. Of course it is much smaller, more recent, and much less significant to local culture than, for example, Italian influence. That there is some sort of mistaken impression in public imagination is no reason to reinforce the error in the lede -- should the San Francisco article's lede say that city's culinary scene is known for Rice-A-Roni? If you're not aware that the Cajun people of Acadiana and the Creoles of Greater New Orleans were different people who came to different parts of Louisiana from different places for different reasons and had cultures that evolved under different circumstances, please take a bit of time to research it for yourself. When Paul Prudhomme came to New Orleans from Acadiana and first opened up a restaurant offering "Cajun food" in 1979, many locals first reaction was that it sounded about as absurd as if someone opened a restaurant in Chicago offering "Hillbilly food" -- until people tried it and found, hey, that's good. There are only a small handful of restaurants in New Orleans that offer authentic Cajun food. "Where do you go for Cajun food?" For the real thing, to Cajun country, of course. I'm surprised you're actually trying to argue the point -- well, that's an illustration as to why there are numerous places in New Orleans, especially in areas relying more on tourist than local clientele, that use the term "Cajun" in their names and on their menus for food which has little to do with actual Cajun food. They got tired of trying to explain to visitors over and over, finding it easier and more profitable to sell tourists what they seemed to want. On your unrelated point of disliking the phrase "New Orleans cuisine" and preferring Creole, I don't object if you think that wording has some sort of stylistic superiority. Red beans & ricely, Infrogmation 22:32, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
- Did you mean for that to sound condescending? Because it does. You have a definite air of "well, I'm an expert who must take on the burden of educating the poor masses and disabusing them of their quaint simplistic notions." From my, admittedly brief, research, there has been an awful lot of cultural interchange between the French Creoles of New Orleans and the Cajuns of Acadiana, especially so in their cuisines. Is gumbo or jambalaya unique to one or the other? No; they just each have their own variations. To the world at large, it's all Cajun. LtPowers 13:21, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
- Condescension was not my intention. I'm just frustrated that someone generally intelligent and articulate like yourself seems to be reacting to the correction of an error of detail by doubling down on defending the error. I'm not trying to start an argument, really. If you think the point needs to be taken to mediation or something, that would be fine by me. Cheers, Infrogmation 15:03, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
- My understanding has always been that Creole is the food of New Orleans; Cajun the food of, well, Cajun Country. Originality of cuisine is a big point of city pride, and it's natural that New Orleanians want to make the distinction clear to visitors. That said, making this clearer to visitors via a good, detailed explanation of the differences would be very helpful. I'm not half the expert needed for this, and am hopeful Infrogmation might take up the task ;) A dedicated subsection of "Eat" would, I think, be warranted. --Peter Talk 18:54, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
- No doubt. But in the lead, we don't really have room for that. Visitors can get Cajun food in New Orleans, and it's one of the things the city is most known for, so I don't see the problem with saying that that's one of the things they can do. My understanding is that Creole food is less spicy than Cajun, so replacing it with "Creole" would ruin the progression I set up in that sentence. LtPowers 09:31, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
- It's a lot of chatter over one word :). I can though see why New Orleanians (if that's what they are called) would want this to be correct. In the same way as it might raise local hackles if the cuisine of Provence was mentioned in the opening paragraph for Languedoc, or that Devon was a great place to eat Cornish Pasties. Would an acceptable compromise be to say ...and even hotter Creole and Cajun cuisine ? Burmesedays
- (Unindent) Some good comparisons, Burmesedays. I think we have two issues here 1)Language of the lead. Again, saying "Creole" instead of "New Orleans" to describe the food is fine by me. I'd say don't worry that people won't think it's "spicy" enough. Snappy prose is great, I just don't think it should take precedence over basic accuracy. I therefore don't think "Cajun" belongs in the lead; I'd object to anything that would reinforce the misconception that New Orleans or its cuisine is "Cajun". This introduces the next issue: 2) What do we mean by "Cajun"? Perhaps where LtPowers is from, "Cajun" is understood to mean something different from what it means in Louisiana. For the Louisiana articles, however, I think we should use the term according to the specific meaning it has here. (Lt Powers, perhaps we could clear things up better if you'd tell us what you thought "Cajun" meant when you put it in the lede -- anything from Louisiana?) Some attempt to counter the misconception that New Orleans is "Cajun" has been in the "Understand" section of the article at least since 2004. We can restate it again in the "Eat" section if people think that's necessary. There is a pretty good overview of Cajun food in the Acadiana article (I recently moved it there from the Lafayette article). Infrogmation 13:43, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
- People from elsewhere slap the Cajun label on all food from the Southern Louisiana region, which is understandable. I have been to New Orleans and only found out about the difference when reading about it here :-) Anyway, I can understand this is a sensitive topic among the locals, so it'd be an improvement if it would be better explained in the Eat section of New Orleans. --globe-trotter 14:39, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
- I was aware that Cajun food came from Acadiana, but I was and continue to be under the impression that it hardly stops at the city limits. Cajun culture has had an influence on New Orleans, if only because it's the nearest big city to Acadiana. Heck, two of the parishes that are in the state's official definition of Acadiana are within the New Orleans metro area. I just don't see this bright dividing line that excludes All Things Cajun from the Big Easy. LtPowers 19:08, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
Cajun food in New Orleans
By request, I've added some info about Cajun food to the "Eat" section. Infrogmation 22:03, 16 September 2011 (EDT)