I think the current structure is highly unhelpful. It's okay for Gion to have a category, because it is a region that many are aware of, but I hate pages that list attractions by categories like "Temples", "Museums", etc. I think these types of divisions are generally unhelpful as they give no indication of where they are in relation to other sites, and in many cases are misleading. An example: Kodaiji Temple falls into the Gion area, but it's also a temple, so someone using this guide would not know that they can see Kodaiji as part of their trip to Gion. I'd much prefer listing them from North to South (or something that gives the user an idea of the areas orientation) OR adding area names, like the "Philosopher's Path" or something.
Is there a Wikitravel policy that accepts these divisions or is this just something individuals do? I would personally prefer a "list of temples" page being separate from actual article pages. ChubbyWimbus 19:49, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
I'm to blame. I don't know about any "rules" about this. I personally found the old layout very hard to read through (and more importantly browse), with that many listings. Normally I'm not a big fan of separating out content by attraction type either, but with the sheer amount of temples in Kyoto, I think it makes sense - But if you can come up with a different way to break up the content I'm all ears.
Tragically even though I lived in Okazaki for 6 months, I have no clue where the temples are (or if they are any good) - guess I got fed up with them pretty quickly - is there any more temples we can move to the Gion subsection (Maybe we could move Kiyomizu ji up there)? Are some of the shrines listed, some of the small ones along/near the Philosopher's Path, so we could make another subsection that way (with Ginkakuji)? --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 20:22, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
To answer my own question, how about grouping Heian, Nanzenji, Eikando, Ginkakuji and Daimonji into an expanded Philosopher's Path area (map). Just browsed through some online guides, and many seems to do as an itinerary already. --Stefan (sertmann)Talk 20:50, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
Actually, when you mentioned Okazaki, it reminded me that Heian Jingu, the Zoo, and the two museums are all in Okazaki. What about having the Philosopher's Path, Okazaki, and Gion? That may be nice, because then our Philosopher's Path section can only include the sites along the path (and Nanzenji). I have tried to find some sort of guide as to what exactly is in Gion, but there doesn't appear to be much consensus among various sources. The core of Gion (where the maiko/geisha are) is just beside Kenninji Temple, and Yasaka Shrine is always listed. Aside from that, other sites are rather fuzzy about whether or not they are in Gion...
So, if Maruyama Park is designated as part of Gion, I think Wikitravel's "Gion" should also include Ryozen Kannon Statue/Temple (already there), Kodaiji, Chion-in, and Yasaka Pagoda (there are some temples further back, like Anyoji, Chorakuji, and Shohoji that could also be included).
Kiyomizu Temple seems like a stretch for us to put in Gion, since it's well-known and has never been placed in Gion in any guide I've ever read. Is it okay that Kiyomizu-dera does not fit into any sub-categories? And do you like having Okazaki as a sub-category? ChubbyWimbus 21:17, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
Also, to do a follow-up on my comments: I think we could place Yoshida Shrine and the other shrines around Kyoto University into the Okazaki area. Basically, this would cover the northern area of Higashiyama, leaving Kiyomizu and everything south of it without categories, unless someone knows the lower area's name.
I'd say it's about the same degree of a stretch to have Ryozen Kannon in Gion as it is to have Kiyomizu-dera in Gion. It's a short walk to Gion in both cases, but that's about all they have to do with Gion. I feel like there's a good name for that area, but I can't think of it right now... Gorilla Jones 23:36, 25 June 2009 (EDT)
Yes, most of the sites surrounding Maruyama Park may not actually be part of Gion, either, but it is nice having them all together in a group, since in reality, they are even closer to the park and Yasaka Shrine than the actual Gion district street. Do you think we should put them in a "Gion" category then? ChubbyWimbus 16:49, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
I've used parks as organization points in Hiroshima — you could group surrounding sights into "Maruyama Park area" or something like that. Even though Gion's sub-section will be comparatively brief, I think it deserves space of its own. Gorilla Jones 18:31, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
Alright, I updated the page to show the proposed sub-categories. It highlights a lot of missing entries, so I'll at least add the names of some of them to get a better idea of how many sites each area holds, but how does it look? I left "Gion", but I made it a subcategory of the Maruyama Park area. Feel free to discuss further here or adjust it if you think there is a better way. Also, the sites that don't fit into any of those categories are at the top. ChubbyWimbus 18:45, 26 June 2009 (EDT)
As Kyoto is currently scheduled to be the next CotM, and the bug report sent in months ago about edits not working with foreign characters, I was wondering if anyone would object to temporarily moving the Japanese text here until the collaboration is over (with the English names beside them to make it easy to put them back). My thoughts are: With the idea that the Collaboration of the Month should attract new people to make edits and improve the page, receiving the "someone else has edited while you were editing" error constantly will make those people lose interest quickly. I imagine it's a pain for all of us who have had to deal with it, but I think for the collaboration, it could be more successful if everything is easily accessible.
I will also use this to encourage everyone to offer their vote on the "top bugs" page in hopes of whoever fixes bugs actually fixing this problem:  (the reports relevent to my comment are "Tech:EditListing script fails on non-ASCII characters in some fields" and "Tech:ListingEditor cannot handle the value of name field in non-ASCII characters".)