Does Ryanair really fly to Iceland? Isn't this perhaps being mixed up with the latest news that Germanwings is starting flights to Iceland? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs)
I went ahead and moved this to "European Discount Airlines." Despite the "no-relationship" disclaimer, I think we really need to avoid company-specific pages. They really don't fall under any of our article types but I think it's good info to have (and a nice article btw). I'm sure this issue will come up again in many different waysMajnoona
Ok Consolidated the Ryanair page into this one and added links to as many other European low cost airlines as I can think of DD
EXCELLENT job! What a good idea. We've gone from a couple of consumer-reports-style articles to a nice travel topic. If we clean up the prose on this a bit, I think it's a front-page article. -- Evan 13:43, 7 Nov 2003 (PST)
I moved this article to a new name that's more inline, at least with respect to capitalization, with the article naming conventions. I also figured that "Discount airlines in Europe" kinda sounded like "Driving in Australia"; it might be a good pattern to continue. -- Evan 13:46, 7 Nov 2003 (PST)
To whoever wrote this article (sorry, bit new here so I don't know how to trace it back yet)...what is the currency of the cost figures mentioned? They are all just showing up as those funny "blank square" characters. I'm guessing as this is an article about airlines in Europe they're Euros, but I don't want to change it on an assumption just in case it's wrong (don't want to mislead anyone). NB. The Euro sign can be obtained (on my computer, at least) by typing CTRL+ALT+4. --sjc196 14:36, 7 Apr 2005, (GMT)
How you type the Euro sign is completely dependant on your keyboard layout. -- Nils 07:48, 8 Apr 2004 (EDT)
And how the Euro sign looks depends on your fonts. I think I need to update my Verdana. -phma 11:19, 8 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Euro sign (€) can be also inserted by typing €. -- JanSlupski 10:28, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Which currency and how to write it? Thanks for the (&euro) tip and for noting that Brussels spent a whole afternoon deciding that euro was to be written with a small "e" and that one euro was divided into "100 cent" without an "s". At least we understand it either way which is more than we can say for the "Global thinking" of the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand who persist in writing the $ (dollar sign) without stating which darned dollar they mean. An air-fare Toronto to Houston was quoted to me in dollars - Guess which type of dollars! Wrong it was in USD (or U$) as the quoter was American. Oz and NZ are just as bad and also have differing values.
It is so easy to write U$, C$, A$ or N$ to clarify - that is unless you mean M$N which might just be the Argentine Peso!! --
User:Gari 18 Feb 2006, 16:15 GMT
What is "the Southwest model", as in "both follow the Southwest model"? I live in the UK, have flown both EasyJet & RyanAir and this term is not familiar to me. 126.96.36.199 15:43, 12 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Southwest airlines in the United States, which originally operated mostly in the southwest of the US. They fly exactly one type of plane, and there is no reserved seating. It's more like a bus. They're cheap and they make a profit. Web page probably needs to explain that a bit. -- Colin 18:27, 12 Apr 2004 (EDT)
What is Southwest model?
Whatever it is, why should it mentioned?
What relation does domestic US airline (Southwest or whatever) have to international low cost carriers within Europe. Why should it or anything else for that matter from the US be used as benchmark for different operations in another part of the world (Europe), and in fact in a different civilization?
First, the phrase "Southwest Model" is meaningful to a significant number of English-speaking travellers. As above, I think this needs elaboration for numbers of English speakers who are not familiar with the phrase. But generally, as a shorthand it is a reasonable thing to do -- it's not about whether the particular company in question is American. For example, "Efficient Amtrak Model" would be nonsensical; whereas "Efficient European Rail Model" is quite meaningful.
Secondly, while you may not have been aware of Southwest's existence, it does affect you. The new European and Asian low-cost carriers are deliberately emulating Southwest -- and this is good for travellers who want to fly cheaply. Southwest is essentially the only profitable and sucessful airline in the US. Which is to say Southwest is the only American carrier worth emulating.
Thirdly, while Europe may be a different civilization.. by the same logic Asian would be moreso. Both Asian and European low-cost carriers are all imitating Southwest. -- Colin 16:22, 9 Jan 2006 (EST)
I removed the link to http://www.cheap0.com as the change made by their webmaster sounded an awful lot like an advertisement. We do have a policy of linking to only primary sources, so the question is: Would that website be important enough to be listed in our extlinks? My gut reaction is "no", but I can't see much harm in it either. Opinions? -- Nils 07:03, 13 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Sigh. We link to various such sites on the page. So the question becomes even more important. Afterall, if we list one, we'll likely have to list them all. It's a "hot" market right now.. (this was nils, guess I am not too cool to preview either. Nils 09:50, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT))
the sites linked to, applefares, openjet etc. seem to be valuable resources. presumeably they are included because, in the same way you wouldn't expect wikitravel to provide the same content that a listings guide for a city does, there is frequently changing data, and complex algorithms being used to extract and maniupulate that data which currently is outside the scope of wikitravel. cheap0.com is the same, while wikitravel could maintain a complete list of budget airlines, it would be much harder to maintain a list of all european routes, because they change incredibly frequently. so nils' gut reaction might be not to include the resource, but why neglect users the existance of a potentially useful resource?
Why didn't you remove the advertisement talk and keep the link? I just tried, and cheap0 isn't really the summum of usability, but it's probably more up-to-date than Wikitravel... Oh, and thou unknown one, signing can be done with ~~~~. Guaka 09:04, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Welllll actually such usage is against our styleguide/policies. It's not a primary source; and we're also not a directory of links. We don't link to travel agencies either, do we? So the gist of my question is: Shouldn't we remove all such similar links from the article? -- Nils 09:50, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)~
I can see both sides of this debate. The most desirable option would be to have all the information contained on these websites on wikitravel, as it is very useful information to the traveller. However, putting the information in the 'Get in' or 'Get out' section would tend to clutter up pages, as well as taking a long time to write.
Here is my proposal. Keep the links to Netcoverdirect and applefares. The former is an insurance company that is the sole provider of insurance against missing low-cost airline connections. The latter is a very useful tool for comparing the cost of different flights. Wikitravel couldn't possibly have the information that it can supply.
Get rid of cheap0.com, and lowcostairlines.org. These contain information that is widely available and should be on wikitravel. I propose either creating separate articles under each city such as Examplecity/Airline_Routes_and_fares, putting the information under the 'Get in' section on each city page, or articles under Discount_airlines_in_Europe/Routes/Examplecity, with cross links to the 'Get in' section on each page. These would be updated whenever new routes and airlines start up. A comprehensive list of European discount airlines should be on Discount_airlines_in_Europe, the Asian ones under Discount_airlines_in_Asia, etc. What does everyone think? --Professorbiscuit 11:22, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)
I don't think it's feasible or even desireable that we start maintaining an index of each and every airline connection in Europe, or even the world. There's just no point in this. The flight plans of airlines change all the time, and we'd constantly be catching up. And if we list discount airlines, why not list regular airlines too? No, we'd be creating a hige amount of text with very, very little actual value to the site or our readers. I am becoming more and more convinced that we should not list any of these sites. We should mention the insurance company, because it's comparable to listing the airline companies themselves and I'd say it passes the "primary source" hurdle. But we don't link to hotel indices, yellow pages, or travel agencies; so I do not see why we should link to a site doing price comparisons or routing information aggregation for discount airlines. -- Nils 12:14, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Linking to Yellow Pages can be very handy. Especially if they are called differently in the local language and a link to an English version is provided. Good sites that compare prices and give information about travelling, hotels or other travel related issues should be mentioned somewhere. Of course, a site that compares budget airlines shouldn't be mentioned in a city or country article. But in this article it is very useful. Guaka 18:53, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)
We are not a web directory. If you want a city's yellow pages, look them up in google. Seriously. -- Nils 08:50, 19 Apr 2004 (EDT)
Nils, I think you are too dedicated to following the letter of the law. The information is useful, we should either have it here or link to it. Bollocks to the "primary source hurdle", or any hurdle. The rules are subject to change, the only rule that matters is that of the traveller coming first. Travellers should have information about how to get around cheaply. Having made several trips around Europe by low-cost airline, Applefares and the like have been unbelievably helpful, and without them I would not have been able to plan my trip. As the Wikitravel:Goals_and_non-goals say;
Wikitravel articles can and should have links to external resources about destinations, itineraries, travel-oriented companies, and other travel-related Web sites.
So please, lighten up. Your ceaselessly negative tone gets me down, this is supposed to be about making a free and useful resource, not an exercise in bureaucratic rule-following. Applefares is useful, it should stay, and if the rules disagree then let's change the rules. --Professorbiscuit 12:55, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)
So, a couple of thoughts: first, rules are particularly precious to a project like ours, since they keep us from having the same arguments over and over and over. But at the same time, rules are made to be broken.
Another thing I'm worried about is that any listing of commercial Web sites is going to be a magnet for discontent, conflict, and dismay. The world of commercial travel Web sites is a pretty overcrowded one, and I'm afraid that we're opening a serious can of worms if we no longer consider them out-of-scope.
Let's try to handle this problem by enlarging space a little bit. How about we move the fare-finder links to a separate travel topic page, like Fare-finder Web sites. We can kind of keep that "quarantined" from the rest of the site, and see how it develops. If it becomes a problem, we can jettison it.
Frankly, I think if we get too bogged down in Web-directory yellow pages hoohaw, we've failed in our mission. This may be useful to travelers, but I don't think it's a central part of creating a travel guide.
In other words, let's explore, but carefully. Comments? --Evan 20:09, 16 Apr 2004 (EDT)
We have a quite clear guideline of only linking to primary sources. Wikitravel:External links explicitly says to avoid "on-line travel guides, restaurant or nightlife guides". Maybe there is a conflict with what Wikitravel:Goals_and_non-goals states. If nothing else, we need to define the scope of what we link to. However, I do not read "itinaries" as "flight finder sites". An itinary would be, say, a company offering a cruise or a similar specialized trip. Correct me if I am wrong. This would be in line with the Manual of Style, as it is a primary source.
I think we should -at all cost- avoid becoming a web directory. Yahoo does that. We should concentrate our effort on creating actual content. If we list applefares, why not cheap0? Because you disagree with their usability? What if they upgrade their site? And who are we to endorse their service over any other? Just do a quick search on google for keywords like "hotel paris", for example. You'll get a million hotel listings in Paris. Not primary sources, the hotel sites themselves, mind you, but a hundred different online brokers, some obviously operating under dozens of names to confuse google. Which service should we link to? Any? All? None? Who's to say?
Clearly, information about flights or hotels is useful to travellers. And also quite clearly, we can not hope to include this information in wikitravel, even if we wanted to. It changes too fast, and the wiki interface does not work well for "interactive" content.
Evan's suggestion of a "Flight finder" article is a compromise, although it sets a dangerous precedent. If we have that, we'll also need "hotel finders", for example... it's a slippery slope worse than Outer Space. Where does listing end and endorsement begin? What constitutes spam links? Really, I do not think we should open this can of worms.
I had a little time to think about the links in this particular article. My suggestion:
- Drop the fares/flight finder links. All of them.
- Keep the airlines
- Keep the insurance company IF their service is unique AND their service is available at least Europe-wide (scope of this article)
Rephrase appropriate text that "numerous fares finder sites exist on the web" and, if we drop the insurance company, "some insurance companies provide... etc etc".
As for the accusation that I follow rules "too much", I am all for breaking rules constructively. However, when there is a dispute, you have laws and rules to decide what course of action is "correct". If the majority of people disagree with a rule, that rule should be changed obviously. But what does not work is anarchy, which, contrary to what some clueless people may claim, is not ever a desireable form of organization (well, lack thereof. whatever.).
Evan, should we move this to travellers' pub -- or at least start a new thread there? It's a topic that goes far beyond European Discount Airlines. (No need to weigh down the pub with article specific questions though, link back here if need be.)
Bump*. It's been about a year, and the link-to-info ratio on this page is going critical. The key knowledge on this page is about RyanAir and EasyJet; all the rest are link listings. Despite protestations to the contrary above, we don't seem to have put any effort into culling the farefinder listings for the best and the brightest. Barring objections, I'm going to move the fare-finders off this page. And I'd love to see some of the links under the airlines sections expanded into actual reviews, with real information. Any takers?
*Thanks to Jpatokal for this useful term.--Evan 10:01, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)
It's been more than a year since this previous message, and barring any objections I'm removing the aggregator extlinks. --Evan 12:17, 6 December 2006 (EST)
Hi, I've added an external link under Jet2 because they won a consumer award, which I thought would be useful if someone is using this to find out about choices of airlines. Is this ok? It seemed useful but not necessarily in keeping with the exact specifications for external links. If it's not ok, sorry. I'm still getting a feel for what is and isn't considered correct. 188.8.131.52 04:57, 3 November 2006 (EST)
It is called "the southwest model" because southwest was the first, and for a long time the only, airline to run in the new "discount" fashion. The iundustry said they woudl fail, they didn´t. Easyjet, Ryanair and the like are all in existence because southwest showed that such an airline could make money. That´s why the point of reference is American. Don´t get in a snit about it. Do I bitch because my philosophy dept. refers to "the Vienna School". I donºt care about anti-americanism, just try not to be so obviously mindless about it.
Other airlines, such as easyJet, will transfer you for free onto another flight if the first one is late if you have left a gap of two hours between flights and they are both easyJet flights.
Is anyone able to substantiate this? easyJet's carrier regulations wrt to onward flights simply say:
If you have booked an onward flight with easyJet, this represents a separate contract. Please note that easyJet does not operate a connecting flight service, and therefore you will need to check-in with your luggage for each sector of your journey in accordance with the check-in requirements below. Consequently we advise that when booking an onward flight with easyJet, you allow at least two hours between the scheduled time of arrival of the incoming flight, and the scheduled time of departure of the onward flight.
This, of course, is not the same thing as what the article says, and if this is the extent of easyjet's policy, then the article is misleading. Anyone got a link to back it up? If not I'll most likely remove the snippet above in a week or so. -- Hypatia 12:19, 5 Oct 2004 (EDT)
When writing that article, I was citing this page on guardian.co.uk which featured a question & answer as follows;
If I am travelling, say, from Scotland to London, and have booked an onward flight with your airline but I miss the connecting flight because your first aircraft is delayed, will I incur any extra cost if getting on a later flight?
EasyJet: Free transfer to next available flight.
When travelling on a delayed flight from Belfast to Stansted last year, there were customer service agents booking people who had missed connections from Stansted onto flights later in the day. I would guess that what they are doing is transferring people onto later flights as a goodwill gesture if flights are flying empty, but they reserve the right not to. They are being a bit vague. Professorbiscuit 17:27, 7 Oct 2004 (EDT)
Thanks for the source. I suppose it might be best to put it as follows:
Updating page as per my draft above. -- Hypatia 05:20, 9 Oct 2004 (EDT)
Thius page should definitely be kept. As should the links to the particular airlines- as an American I am less than familiar with discount airlines in Europe, and googling "discount airlines in europe" basically leads to a fog of rip-off sites. I came to wikitravel because I knew I would get the straight dope about it. And I did. I like trolling here for info- but so far this page has been the most useful for me.
What is the definition of a low-cost airline for this article?
I'd like to add a few small airlines, such as OLT, which could be considered
low-cost on certain routes where they fly cheaper than any other airline.
This also applies to mainstream airlines like BMI, and Alitalia, as a couple of examples
where they are sometimes cheaper than the lowcost competition for the same route.
I would like to expand this but don't want to start an article on 'non-lowcost' airlines! -Wikibob | Talk 17:16, 2004 Nov 16 (EST)
Was trying to make searching connections more easy. Especially when searching for route that have no direct connection.
Made script that imports data to huge HTML table, and added some simple javascipt tools for navigation.
The 1992 Open Skies treaty has nothing to do with discount airlines. It's a disarmament agreement which establishes a program of unarmed aerial surveillance flights over the entire territory of its participants. I suppose the real legal framework enabling the development of discount airlines in Europe were some regulations or directives adopted by the (then) European Economic Community, but I'm not aware which ones.
Wikipedia article on the 1992 Treaty on Open SkiesMaartenVidal 13:35, 4 July 2006 (EDT)
I moved this section from the article; it's getting very heavy and tout-y and veering into Web-directory land, a definite non-goal. If someone has a good reason to put these back and is willing to separate the wheat from the chaff, please do, else let's let them sit for a while. --Evan 12:21, 6 December 2006 (EST)
There are some very useful websites to use when booking connecting low cost airline flights (in alphabetical order):
Cheapflights.co.uk Price comparison for cheap flights out of the UK.
dohop.com cleverly composes multileg journeys based on low-cost airlines. Be careful when you plan journeys with connections! Lowcost airlines don't guarantee any time and not even the flight so put at least 3-4 hours between arrival and last check-in time (As the site suggests).
Eurovoli.com is a search engine for low cost flights from the UK to the rest of Europe.
flybilligst.com is a must if you're flying to or from Norway. The site lets you choose between the destinations of five low cost airlines. It then shows a graph with the prices for the next months, letting you easily select the cheapest day to fly. It is, however, in Norwegian, and seems not to have heard about Liverpool.
Flylc.com shows all European cheap flights on one screen and redirects to the low-cost airline operating the flight selected (Information site).
Flylowcostairlines.org Comprehensive search engine of low-cost airlines' flights, that enables to find direct, one-stop or two-stop connections.
Low Fare Flights, this UK site compares budget airfares on over 300 european routes, originating from the UK only.
momondo.com helps you find and compare prices across 200 airlines and travel agencies in realtime.
Openjet will find the cheapest way of getting between the 91 cities served by Easyjet, MytravelLite, BMIbaby, Basiq Air, HLX and Germanwings. Doesn't always work.
Opodo Joint airline company that sell spare seats and combines low cost with flagcarrier tickets.
fly.de Cheap flight tickets and combinations of several offers. The site gives an overview about flights from and in germany. Furthermore tickets in the whole world can be booked.
Resetips is a site in Swedish and English useful for finding low cost flights to and from Sweden.
Skyscanner will find the cheapest way of getting between cities and has additional tools, such as fare graphs for a given route over a month and cheap weekend flights from any given city.
Also of use are some information sites (in alphabetical order):
air-scoop.com gathers all the main news published on Low Cost Carriers in Europe.
attitudetravel.com has information on 80 low cost and low fare airlines across Europe and further info on web-fares available on competing flag-carriers
BudgetFlightFinder.com lists some of the more obscure budget airlines that are missing elsewhere, particularly in Asia and the Middle East. Weak coverage in the Americas.
Euroflights.info provides information on low cost flights available to several hundred European destinations.
flycheapo.com is another excellent resource, and has up-to-date low-cost airline route news.
lowcostairlines.org lists all 61 European low cost airlines (plus many other low cost airlines all over the world)
Whichbudget.com Provides a regularly updated list of cheap flights with booking links, organised by airport. Concentrates on Europe, but covers some budget routes around the world. Be aware that an airline offering cheap fares on just a few routes (such as BMI) will be listed here under every airport it flies from, even if some routes are always very expensive.
I agree this page turned into a web directory of sites, but not listing anything is unhelpful too. I've found myself returning to the Talk page several times to lookup some of these sites. Is there some criteria we could use to list only a few sites? I've found the following to be very useful and I think they are popular: www.skyscanner.net www.bravofly.com www.momondo.com Gerdemb 11:21, 22 December 2006 (EST)
The listing is indeed very useful. I propose to reinsert the first part (the first 14 links). Alfio 17:16, 5 March 2007 (EST)
Most of these sites use EXACTLY THE SAME underlying search engine but they have a nice cover. I say you either LET ALL IN or TAKE ALL AWAY otherwise you are just helping some get popular and put others into obscurity (unless of course that is YOUR PLAN, or you are paid to do just that). I Vote to take all LINKS OUT just like wikipedia has done. If someone wants to keep a few for their use JUST make a bookmark for yourself. George Kontopoulos 03:33, 14 November 2008 (EST)
It would be helpful it the airline list had flag icons to show where the companies serve, or are based. For example Air Berlin could have a little German flag next to it. Does Wikitravel have them too?
No, we don't, and I don't like the idea very much — carriers like Ryanair have bases in half a dozen countries. Jpatokal 14:16, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
What if we group airlines by their base country? I see two reasons for that:
primary: it will help to find airline for any specific point-to-point flight. First you check airlines basing in your departure country; if there's no luck, you also check airlines basing in your destination. Right now you have to search the article for the country you need, and hope you used the same writing as article's authors (like searching for French, France and Paris instead of just looking into France section), and the article has an up-to-date list of destinations.
secondary: every airline is always based in one country. It means that every airline goes into a single section.
another secondary: most of the times we use discount airlines for direct flights, not for complicated multi-country connections.
yet secondary: it is not unusual that travelers fly from a country with no local discounters to a country with them. With the current list, even shortlisting discounters is really complicated.
Objections? Alternative ideas on making the list more usable and navigable? --DenisYurkin 15:19, 24 September 2007 (EDT)
I plunged forward and implemented my suggestion. Does it look better now? --DenisYurkin 17:10, 28 September 2007 (EDT)
Looks fine but what about airlines that operate between countries, neither of which is their base country? For example, FlyZoom (a Canadian company) also operates low cost flights between New York-JFK and Gatwick and San Diego and Gatwick. The base country listing system does not allow for that to be easily presented. With the coming open skies agreement, I expect a lot more of these third country flights. Perhaps the article should list all airlines that fly out of a European country (zoom would then be on the UK listing while RyanAir, MyAir, etc. etc. would be in multiple country listings). That way, if someone is searching for a list of discount airlines out of, say, Italy, they'll see all the choices available - not just the ones that base their operations in Italy. Also, that way, we don't have to have a list for "airlines based outside Europe", they'd just show up wherever they fly. --Wandering 15:36, 14 January 2008 (EST)
Trying to continue your thought, it would be quite logical to have that list of discount airlines flying from/to specific country in that country's article. But that way gives no single place for describing any given airline (and, judging by this article, we find such description somewhat useful for a traveler). BTW, this pops up related discussion: "Should we have articles on airlines?" --DenisYurkin 13:25, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
> Centralwings ... generally makes use of LOT's fleet, and thus is probably safer (eg. less likely to go bankrupt)
Do we have examples of bankruptcies among discount airlines? How using national carrier's fleet makes the company safer in respect to bankruptcy? --DenisYurkin 04:30, 9 December 2007 (EST)
Countless discount airlines have gone bankrupt. Being owned fully or partly by a major/national airline means that they have access to a steady supply of capital and are thus less likely to go kaboom. Jpatokal 06:29, 9 December 2007 (EST)
So the reason for higher safety is the fact that it is owned and funded by a well-established airline, not that discounter uses major's fleet, right?
If so, is it better for us to mention this observation in general overview rather than in details on a single airline? As far as I remember, many discounters are owned by a major airline. --DenisYurkin 07:07, 9 December 2007 (EST)
No, some LCCs (eg. Thailand's Nok Air, owned by THAI) use their parents' planes repainted and their maintenance facilities. I think it's worth noting for those that do. Jpatokal 07:43, 9 December 2007 (EST)
Does RyanAir let you take on a winter jacket or does it count as baggage?
Does RyanAir let you take on a winter jacket or does it count as baggage?
Usually I wear my jacket to keep my luggage lightweight and put a camera in the jacket pocket to keep the carry on luggage light weight. Does Ryanair let you do this?