For more about using talk pages check out Wikitravel:Using talk pages.
Work in Progress
- A general plea, so this doesn't become solely a project of one person: Please help contribute to this article!
Status report: I've begun the process of fleshing out the winery information, as per recommendations from Destination of the Month. Hunting down wine map from Palisade Chamber of Commerce, with permission, although I suspect it will be inadequate for Wikitravel standards. (Maybe one of Wikitravel's uber-editor/mapmakers could draft something from original?) Need some help crediting photos at both Palisade and Colorado's Wine Country. All pix are in the public domain, courtesy of the Colorado Wine Industry Development Board. Fleshing out surrounding communities will take some time. What started as a civic minded project to better promote my hometown (and the family business) has grown into a monster effort to avoid being cast into the purgatory of the Slush Pile . I'd like to grow this into a viable nominee and eventually a Star article. Still, should be a fun project. Feedback appreciated. WineCountryInn 11:35, 9 January 2009 (EST)
WineCountryInn 16:12, 9 January 2009 (EST)
- Any map is better than none (and is required for a Star), so if you can get access/licensing to one, let's see what it looks like! Jpatokal 01:24, 10 January 2009 (EST)
Winery List Finished
Please do not delete the [Winery Listings] in the "Do" section. I want to make the list as comprehensive as possible, rather than single out individual wineries or to place them in specific towns mentioned in the Wine Regions Section. WineCountryInn 16:13, 9 January 2009 (EST)
- I think the current setup is fine. Jpatokal 01:24, 10 January 2009 (EST)
Removed Winery Regions
Removed the Wine Regions Section because the taxonomy was problematic. These are small towns, not wine regions in their own right. The Grand Valley and West Elks AVAs are more properly labeled regions. Added more pix and a .jpg map, with permission from the Palisade, CofC. Added extensively to the Sleep, Eat, Drink, Contact sections. Added a Cope section, as well. I hope this article achieves star status, and is a serious contender for OtBP. What else is needed, in your opinions? WineCountryInn 12:30, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- At a quick glance the "Wine Resources" section may not be in compliance with Wikitravel:External links - it's very tough to avoid spam in articles, so the external links policy is pretty tough. You might also want to make "History" a sub-section of "Understand" so that the main headers match standards elsewhere on the site. Additionally, and this is just my personal preference, I'd prefer to see more general focus on wine towns/regions, types of lodging, types of restaurants, how wine tastings works, available activities, etc., and less focus on individual wineries and restaurants. As an example, I live in California, and if we started a similar article that listed restaurants and lodging in California's wine country I have no doubt that the article would eventually become a mess of hundreds of listings; however, an article that focused on the major wine regions (Napa, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz) and then gave pointers to towns in those regions, types of lodging (spas, hotels, etc) might have more success. We would provide pointers to travelers about where to go for wine-related activity, and they could then search the (smaller) town articles for lodging and restaurant options. That's just my two cents - as Jani pointed out, you're doing a great job with this article and have avoided many of the pitfalls that new contributors fall into. -- Ryan • (talk) • 13:10, 11 January 2009 (EST)
To Eat or Not to Eat, to Sleep, or Perchance to Dream
Probably the best argument I can make for listing the wineries and restaurants in Colorado's Wine Country rather than just individual towns is the scale of these wine regions. The Grand Valley and West Elks AVA are sparsely populated and do not encompass the size or scope of any California wine region. (You could probably plunk the sum total of Colorado's grape acreage into a single Bob Mondavi vineyard). I don't anticipate a flood of spam listings. I could live with or without the URLs for the wineries. It was merely an attempt to be comprehensive, as per feedback from the OtBP section. Also, this is a travel topic, since it does not encompass a specific region, but both Northwestern Colorado and Southwestern Colorado. Thanks for the input!WineCountryInn 13:57, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- If the total number of wineries is less than 50-60 then listing individual wineries in one place definitely makes sense. I'm less confident about the restaurant, bar, and hotel listings - is the region self-contained and sparsely populated enough that these lists won't balloon out of proportion? Typically we remove individual restaurant and hotel listings from region articles since there tend to be so many, but if this is a special case then maybe just adding a line of text explaining "this sparsely-populated region has few towns, but the following isolated hotels offer lodging for visitors" (or something to that effect) would help limit hotel owners in Colorado from overwhelming your article? -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:06, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- I'm fairly confident the eat, sleep and drink listings will not be overwhelmed. I chose only the top picks for each town/category. This is what was suggested by Gorilla Jones for the wineries until I fleshed out the winery listings (and there are only 37 wineries for both AVAs). The only areas with any density of hotels are Montrose and Grand Junction. The profiles for both locales are in total disarray because no one is really posting for Western Colorado. Even the popular resorts like Aspen and Vail are only outlines, while the state-level listing for Colorado also needs some work. Denver is the only article I've spotted for the region with substantive material. If the other editors want the eat, sleep, drink listings moved to the town/city level, I have no problem with that. (Just don't delete them!) But I feel strongly the wineries need to stay where they are. I will add the line of text that Ryan is advocating. So what else needs to happen before this becomes a star? WineCountryInn 16:58, 11 January 2009 (EST)
Wine External Links Fixed
Using proper link formatting now. (Minor edit). All three links for "Wine Resources" are primary sites and related topics of interest, as per Wikitravel:External links: "The official Web sites of cultural and educational organizations offering programs of interest to travelers, such as foreign language instruction or cooking classes." Two of the links offer educational programs to the public: Rocky Mountain Association of Vintners & Viticulturalists and the Western Colorado Research Center, A State-Funded Viticulture Program. The third link, the Colorado Wine Industry Development Board, is an official government Web site, but since it is referenced earlier in the article, I removed it. Do these links fit the bill, as per the concerns mentioned by Ryan? I added a few clarifying sentences in this subsection to explain their usefulness. Thanks!WineCountryInn 17:52, 11 January 2009 (EST)
The winery map of Palisade has been added, courtesy of the Palisade Chamber of Commerce. WineCountryInn 19:35, 11 January 2009 (EST) Talk
Begun to Add Unique Descriptions to Each Winery
This was requested by both Sertmann and Gorilla Jones, and I think it's a doable task.
Adding a "Why Visit" line to each winery to help differentiate them. WineCountryInn 22:08, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- Unique descriptions of each winery have been added. WineCountryInn 02:37, 12 January 2009 (EST)
I think the current listing format is decidedly idiosyncratic and needs to be changed to be as close to our Manual of Style format as possible. We don't usually put address, directions, description, etc. on separate, titled sub-bullets like that. I think each listing should be collapsed into a single bullet entry to fit along with the was we usually do listings around here. Texugo 23:28, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- In addition, the state and zip code need to be struck from all addresses, and the website link needs to go after the address and phone number. Texugo 23:45, 11 January 2009 (EST)
Normally I'd agree with you, but this:
- Amber Ridge Vineyards 3820 G. 25 Road Palisade, CO 81526 +1-970-464-5314. By appointment only.
- Grapes: Chardonnay, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon.
- Directions: Heading West From Denver I-70 to exit 44 (about 14 miles from Grand Junction, Colorado). Exit 44 turns into State Hwy 6. Follow this for about a mile and a half to 38 road. Turn right on 38 Road and go about 1/4 mile to Corley Vineyards,LP, dba Amber Ridge Vineyards. Look for vineyard on your right at 3820 G. 25 Road. Heading East From Grand Junction: I-70 to exit 42. This turns into Elberta Ave. Stay on Elberta about one mile until you reach State Hwy. 6. Turn left. You will be heading East. Go about 1 mile, over the bridge at the Colorado River, and turn left on 38 Road. Follow this about 1/4 mile to Corley Vineyards,LP, dba Amber Ridge Vineyards. Look for vineyard on your right at 3820 G. 25 Road.
- Why Visit: Enjoy a glass at their granite and travertine tasting bar, or sit outside and enjoy the views of the Boocliffs from the deck.
Looks infinately less confusing than this:
- Amber Ridge Vineyards, 3820 G. 25 Road Palisade ('''Heading West From Denver''' I-70 to exit 44 (about 14 miles from Grand Junction, Colorado). Exit 44 turns into State Hwy 6. Follow this for about a mile and a half to 38 road. Turn right on 38 Road and go about 1/4 mile to Corley Vineyards,LP, dba Amber Ridge Vineyards. Look for vineyard on your right at 3820 G. 25 Road. '''Heading East From Grand Junction''': I-70 to exit 42. This turns into Elberta Ave. Stay on Elberta about one mile until you reach State Hwy. 6. Turn left. You will be heading East. Go about 1 mile, over the bridge at the Colorado River, and turn left on 38 Road. Follow this about 1/4 mile to Corley Vineyards,LP, dba Amber Ridge Vineyards. Look for vineyard on your right at 3820 G. 25 Road.), ☎ +1-970-464-5314, . Grapes: Chardonnay, Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon Why Visit: Enjoy a glass at their granite and travertine tasting bar, or sit outside and enjoy the views of the Boocliffs from the deck.
No? I don't really think the directions should (which is usefull information) should have to go, just to fit perfectly with our manual of style, but if you can come up a more appropriate format, closer to the MOS please smack it up here. --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 23:52, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- Btw, I just wanted to note that I think this is outstanding work! --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 23:55, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- I'd say make an exception for the individual listing when there is too much direction information or whatever. I don't see any reason to make an exception for the whole list. Texugo 23:57, 11 January 2009 (EST)
- Unique descriptions of each winery have been added. I have begun to clean up the winery listings as debated between Stefan (sertmann)Talk and Texugo. I will have to address the manual of style issues tomorrow. WineCountryInn 02:42, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- I think the problem with the mile-long directions description is not the style in which it's formatted, it's the mile-long description itself. The map, which I'll note already includes Amber Ridge, does a much better job. Jpatokal 10:56, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- I agree. The first few wineries under the Grand Valley AVA are too long winded. I will trim them. However, a majority of the other directions to the wineries are fairly terse. The map addresses only the wineries in the Grand Valley, and not West Elks, so at least West Elks needs some directions. WineCountryInn 11:40, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- Listing Format Addressed. Cleaned up the Wiki markup language for all listings. Used Manual of Style for listings wherever I spotted it. Please go over the listings with a fine tooth comb and tell me where stylistically I am non-compliant. I hope this addresses the editing concerns expressed by Texugo, Stefan (sertmann) Talk, Gorilla Jones and Jpatokal. I appreciate all the feedback. The peer review is phenomenal. WineCountryInn 15:39, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- Possible MoS improvements: Copy editing this myself, it looks like there is some cleanup for Street abbreviations, temperature and measurement abbreviations, metric conversions. Am I missing anything? WineCountryInn 16:15, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- MoS Editing Completed: Edited copy and it should now be MoS compliant. WineCountryInn 13:28, 13 January 2009 (EST)
- Once again, you're doing really really great work - A round of applause from me - I know how tedious this can get --Stefan (sertmann) Talk 15:39, 13 January 2009 (EST)
- As geeky as this sounds, I find it kinda fun! WineCountryInn 16:49, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Cope Versus Do
I am attempting to be self-critical and as "by the book" for Wikitravel as I can possibly be, esp. since this is an OtBP nomination. I have been poring over the MoS for Sections, and it looks like the copy I have under Cope is better listed under Do. Do you agree? Adding Hospitals, Police Stations and Tourist Information Centers shouldn't be a big deal. What else is needed? And on a side note, and without getting into the controversy currently swirling around the Wikitravel community, I do want to thank those of you who have offered your advice and time towards making this article the best it can possibly be. I'm sure I speak for a lot of the "newbies" out there when I say that the admins and users are doing a phenomenal job. Please keep up the good work! WineCountryInn 13:38, 13 January 2009 (EST)
When to come
Two quick things.
- I think this should read When to go rather than When to come.
- When to go sections, when we have them, usually come under Understand.
Any special reason to make an exception here? Texugo 09:14, 14 January 2009 (EST)
- An easy fix. I'll switch it around. WineCountryInn 09:33, 14 January 2009 (EST)
- Cool. Looks good. I'm also a little concerned that putting all the grapes in italics leaves us with way too much italicized text in the listings. MoS-sanctioned uses of italics are really only for phone numbers and directions, or to provide grammatical emphasis within a sentence. Texugo 10:25, 14 January 2009 (EST)
- Ouch! I'm hoping for a shortcut. Is there an automated admin tool for pulling itals out of the code? Or is it line by line, the "hard" way? WineCountryInn 11:19, 14 January 2009 (EST)
- I'll be glad to do it, but it won't be til tomorrow. Texugo 11:34, 14 January 2009 (EST)
- Thanks for the edits. It's starting to look pretty clean. WineCountryInn 01:53, 16 January 2009 (EST)
Wine towns built out
I have been hammering away at all the wine towns mentioned in this article to make sure they are usable. Now the towns of Paonia, Hotchkiss, Montrose, Delta all have usable profiles. There are no more stubs. Palisade was already built and the city of Grand Junction just needs a little fine tuning. (I'd like to add a history section and flesh out the restaurants a bit). All the listings for Colorado's Wine Country have been duplicated in these individual towns, as per my conversations with many of you in the Wiki community. Thanks, WineCountryInn 00:09, 23 January 2009 (EST)