The following content was moved from the main article. A schedule should not be posted as it may change and as such be very labor intensive. However, a generalized paragraph or two explaining some of the more popular or useful routes is suggested. -- Ilkirk 12:12, 4 Nov 2005 (EST)
Historically these are the countries of German "Mitteleuropa".
Historically, Mitteleuropa was a failed German policy to create some puppet states on the border with Russia during World War 1. So, if Germany is in Central Europe, and if the Central European countries are the countries of historical Mitteleuropa, then did the Germans want to create a puppet state of themselves? Maybe that's because this policy failed? Obviously, it's absurd and besides, it's irrelevant so I'm removing it.
Central European regions in States with other location
Is it possible to create this section including also e.g. South Tyrol? If not at least may I insert South Tyrol in the list of "Other destinations"? A lot of people who is visiting Central Europe decide to visit also South Tyrol which is historically and geographically Central Europe. For example also Slovenia is included in both Central and Mediterranean Europe. Bye. Strudl 20:19, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
Same thing with Croatia. 184.108.40.206 20:53, 31 March 2010 (CET)
Hello! I would like to add that the general public (we) have never supported the soviet ideology, 1956, 1968, Polish Solidarity, history books on aftermath of 1945 etc. shows it, and for those not living here it should be evident too. I have experienced even in Western Europe people don't know this. For inserting the following, I was sent here to consult this first here. After a week (on November 19) I will replace the Understand section to the following if there is no objection from a Central European, italics inserted by me:
It is a common mistake by outsiders to label all the former Warsaw Pact states in the region as being in Eastern Europe. Almost uniformly, inhabitants of Central Europe will be flattered and pleased if you correctly describe their countries as "central European" both geographically and culturally. Conversely, they may be upset if you lapse into Cold War stereotypes, a system installed contrary to their consent, and levels of human development, and its disappearing after-effects most regard were deprivation from the level of west by the Soviets and their local servants. East and West Germany were countries with great differences, so better to call it now, with similar level of economy eastern and western Germany. The fall of the iron curtain, at the Germans the reunification is history and seen in a very or relatively positive light by most in all of Central Europe.
Remember Germans are Germans but Austrians, Liechtensteiners and most Swiss and Luxembourgers all speak German, but are not German! Czech, Polish or Slovakian may sound similar to Russian, but inhabitants of these countries will not take kindly to assumptions of cultural overlap, which is not true, their culture is different from Eastern Europe. Lastly, keep in mind that the Czech Republic and Slovakia once shared a country as well and Slovaks in general are very proud of their new found independence.
While they are not currently considered part of Central Europe, the regions of western Ukraine, Kaliningrad Oblast (Russia), Alsace and parts of Lorraine (France), Alto-Adige / South Tirol - province (Italy), and Croatia are sometimes also considered Central European. This is due either to their current and or past ethnic makeup and/or previous political histories and set of cultural attitudes. The Kaliningrad oblast spent most of its history as a German speaking region and South Tirol remains a largely German-speaking region in northern Italy maintaining strong cultural ties to Austria. Even though Ukraine is predominantly an orthodox country, its westernmost part for the centuries was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and later passed to Austria-Hungary which to some extent influenced it's unique culture.
I would object, for two reasons. First, I can't see what value that adds for a traveler today: it seems to be adding more text for little additional information. Second, that's rather awkward English, and would need a substantial rewrite in any case. — D. Guillaime 14:36, 13 November 2010 (EST)
I agree; it's well-intentioned but too much detail for Wikitravel. And in some cases the additions are simply redundant to text that's already there. LtPowers 15:55, 13 November 2010 (EST)
When I intend to add it I will give a shortened revision giving due weight to the issue here before it. It adds me value, the way tourists behave to me, in this case the core information would be good for them too. 220.127.116.11 14:33, 28 November 2010 (EST)
A justification for why they are upset is indeed missing from the understand section, this is not wishing for called being Central European but rightfully expecting acknowledgenment of the general state of the states. If anyone manages to insert the meaning of health and authority situation I agree with it. I find it important if I imagine myself to be a tourist who wants to travel there, if I only want to read about them I don't miss either. 18.104.22.168 15:55, 24 December 2010 (EST)
Omitting a justification for the whole region, immediately a statement about East and West Germany comes which I consider a mistake. Regarding them a sentence only mentioning that they were politically unified, omitting the results of unified pollution and industrial limits (same regulations, de-poisoning of land by now is finished everywhere) I think should be made better. Only a few advancements since the times the audience may get their associations from: air pollution level, cars in traffic are EURO III or IV standards required. Ringroads were built around many settlements, 100% sewer coverage and treatment was required to be reached by 2010 by their EU accession treaty for all settlements except the smallests. Here in Hungary 1200 km intra-settlement road was reconstructed in 2010. And I would take it kindly if I wouldn't be called a communist also, having memories of only the after-effects of it is still more revulsing than western media propaganda of it also. Supposing oppression of masses and mass willingness to follow it by tourists is contradictory in itself.[User:22.214.171.124|126.96.36.199]] 15:28, 24 December 2010 (EST)
the objection we, the Central Europeans have against being called Eastern European is very simple. It is not political correctness, as you might think, but something different. The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are countries, which did A LOT of effort to get rid of what is normally connected to the term "Eastern Europe", namely massive organized crime, political instability, poverty, high HIV/AIDS rates, etc. I myself, as well as other Central European people, don't mind, what would be the name we would be given, but the only thing we want is - DO NOT PUT US TOGETHER WITH THE GROUP OF LOSERS FROM UKRAINE, MOLDOVA, BELAURS, RUSSIA, BOSNIA, SERBIA OR ALBANIA! Regardless of how you call them and how you call us, there shall be a clear line of division between us, because we are simply more different from them, than from, let's say, Sweden or Switzerland.
--188.8.131.52 21:24, 6 December 2010 (EST)
Exactly what are you complaining about? No one here has "put [you] together" with those other countries. The Balkans are a separate article, as are Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine. What more do you want? LtPowers 14:13, 7 December 2010 (EST)
Nothing, just claryfing why there is all the discussion my Polish colleague was involved in :) The Wikitravel article is good as it is now. —The preceding comment was added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs)
I would like to see a description which clearly states the differences of Central and Eastern Europe: obvious cultural, life-philosophical and historical differences. There women should be treated with a czarist rigidity of inequality and for what I as a Central European consider a healthy egalitarianist relationship or interaction there I am sure social exclusion comes for males. This is in my eyes, through my thinking can only be a compensation for lack of civilized democratic history or present, like 'still we are moral'. The second is that obviously Central Europe was annexed to the Soviet Empire against its will and existed in it with the constant will to break away, because of valuing democracy and comprehending democratic values there is no nostalgy for it in Central Europe. Here constant western support is not necessary to keep communists out of power . No metro stations are over-ornamented here like the ones there built on the order of Stalin to overcompensate mass starvation caused by government allocation of resources, basically an economic policy depriving people of their human rights. I agree with the first speaker, I believe if you call us with this name, the border of Europe should be set at Poland, and North-Eurasian Countries or similar name should be in public use regarding the states whose government, because didn't have to be afraid of negative public opinion (this shows the general culture of the people) was willing to join CIS. Note: I don't consider the people of those states losers or suppose they don't wish for a better life, yet for tourists simply because of e.g. the public health situation (tapwater, corrosion-poisoning to say the simplest case without the case of getting to hospital) and dealing with authorities are two different worlds. A Central European police officer may be even more rational and less aggressive without someone obviously representing danger than a Western European one. The last one, which I didn't even associate to a moment before, problems of mines, rebels, checkpoints or rigidity in VISA issues (not letting you out of Schengen Zone for being late, they would arrest you only in case you were suspected you did crime as in Western Europe, otherwise they would just forbid you entering again for a few years, as it is the case with other EU and NATO countries or Australia and New Zealand) are unknown here.220.127.116.11 09:27, 23 December 2010 (EST)
Frankly, we're not particularly interested in the politics here, or in disparaging any former Warsaw Pact member states. We just want to provide useful information to the traveler. All of the countries listed in this article are clearly Central European, and I don't think anyone's disputing that, so I really don't understand what this discussion is about. LtPowers 10:39, 23 December 2010 (EST)
Agreed, this is deteriorating into tangential political rants. If discussion continues unhinged to the actual article in question, it may become appropriate to revert. --PeterTalk 17:22, 23 December 2010 (EST)
Simply put my message: an average tourist may have preconceptions because of the Cold War. Only cultural difference is stated, general public health and authority situation is not even implied. If I were a tourist I wouldn't know whether they are missing because they are non-existent or because it is common knowledge and whether I have to prepare for it (vaccination, choice of food). I think it would be a good direction to add some information about this if anyone wishes. Generally it is the same for the whole region, I saw it. 18.104.22.168 15:10, 24 December 2010 (EST)
I'm afraid I still don't quite understand what you're looking for. Should we discuss problems that are widespread in Eastern Europe in the Central Europe article? Wouldn't that be better placed in the appropriate country or region articles? LtPowers 16:16, 28 December 2010 (EST)
A simple/few reference would be necessary and enough. It was in the Soviet Hemisphere, and in most people's mind there is only this Cold War east/west division. They should know explicitly not to expect those circumstances. (both geographically, culturally and economically. Conversely, they may be upset if you lapse into Cold War stereotypes: pollution has been eliminated by changing to Western technology and standards.) This is missing in my reading as an exclamation mark. Moreover, it is true. Ray-force dropped to one-tenth after replacing the military radars, by now the changeover rippled through all following spheres of the economy (power plants, factories, consumer electronics). 22.214.171.124 16:01, 2 January 2011 (EST)
Reference to what? I don't even know what "Ray-force" is. LtPowers 19:55, 2 January 2011 (EST)
Exactly to that. You know perfectly well what magnetic ray/magnetic field is else accept my condolences. I take this you build your self esteem by not recognizing the changes and not willing to tell them to tourists. 126.96.36.199 18:04, 3 January 2011 (EST)
Considering you didn't say anything about magnetism, I hope you can excuse me for not knowing that "Ray-force" means "magnetic ray/magnetic field". (Although I admit I actually don't know what a magnetic "ray" is.) Why don't you propose some specific wording, because I'm obviously not capable of figuring out what you mean? LtPowers 21:16, 3 January 2011 (EST)
I'm not entirely sure I understand the full discussion above, but it would be helpful to see a 1-2 paragraph example of the exact text that the user wants to see included in the article. If the relevant issues can't be condensed into 1-2 paragraphs then I suspect the discussion is probably out-of-scope for a travel guide. -- Ryan • (talk) • 00:27, 4 January 2011 (EST)
Sure, I think this would be a better fit for "respect" than understand," but let me try:
As with virtually everywhere in the world, locals don't like to be conflated with their neighbors (particularly with neighbors they do not like), and in the case of Central Europeans, this means Eastern Europeans. For your own sake, try to steer conversation away from the tiresome and patronizing rants about Eastern Europe and towards something more useful to travelers like where to go next or what restaurants are worth visiting.
What I would add: both geographically, culturally and economically. Conversely, they may be upset if you lapse into Cold War stereotypes: pollution has been eliminated by changing to Western technology. This shows uncomfortability doesn't come without reason. The sentence culminated in the horrors of the Second World War is historically false, here ethnic conflicts peaked in the 1840s and also around 1918, then it was probably even higher. What proves it: Hungary was in alliance with the surrounding states during WWII in spite in all nation state demands she is on one side. Anti-Jewism is an invention of Hitler and the characteristics of a handful of Nazis of any nation only. The hundreds of years suggests general narrowmindedness is damned to exist here for eternity. Moreover, it didn't exist in the Middle Ages. I would replace: Ethnic conflict was a major problem since 1800s and culminated in 1848 and 1918. With the recent expansion of the EU and Schengen Zone the problem finally seems to be resolved. It is true, Schengen is what is regarded as the basic solution. This two addition is all I would add currently. 188.8.131.52 14:32, 5 January 2011 (EST)
(unindent) To be honest, 86.101, that section on the History of Hungary talk page is pretty incomprehensible. To address the specific suggestions: Peter's wording seems like advice from Captain Obvious to me, and it's not clear whether it's the reader or his Central European acquaintances who would be engaging in "tiresome and patronizing rants". As for "pollution has been eliminated", that's an absurd claim. No place on earth has eliminated pollution entirely. And the elimination of any mention of World War II from the Understand section is simply unacceptable; it's what the majority of English-speaking travelers know about the region's history and a major factor in the region's history. LtPowers 16:02, 6 January 2011 (EST)
Sorry for confusion--my "proposal" was entirely tongue in cheek. --PeterTalk 17:03, 6 January 2011 (EST)
Sorry for misunderstandable wording of something I thought the intended meaning of which was obvious. Pollution difference has been largely eliminated. If you don't know what this means you don't know to what extent the communists didn't care about it. 184.108.40.206 07:39, 9 January 2011 (EST)
To the second argument: this means they know nothing about it, they only have distorted preconceptions through bad communication by news agencies. I repeat: the states were in alliance against the Soviet Union.(1) Any mention of that is unbased unjustness. Put it simply, to understand: framing is the implication of death camps.(2) Death camp was Hitler's and Stalin's invention (megalomaniacs), and indeed, nothing culminated in the Second World War, as there were no ethnic cleansing among nationalities. The only connection that can be found is that Hitler argued with the creation of a German Nation State by invading the Rhur-area, annexing Austria etc. By this explanation on the international stage he could avert war declaration. It only came when he attacked Poland, he couldn't justify that for taking back German-mayority territories, that was obviously conquest and war of aggression.
Reinforcing a false belief instead of taking the stress of researching and finding out preconceptions are wrong is bad, moreover it causes unjustness not to you but to us, even in the interpersonal behaviour tourists have towards people here, not mentioning preconceptions of politicians when they try to negotiate.
Get a history book, not articles in newspapers or television, which will have simplified references creating a completely false picture. I repeat: you demonstrated you lack basic knowledge about nationality-problems in Central Europe if you associate it to the anti-semitism and übermensch-theory of Nazis of the Second World War.
(1) Most leadership tried to jump out of the Nazi influence at the end of the war when thought it was possible (some for this have been replaced by national far-right regimes by the Germans in turn).
(2) You can only find death camps in Poland, all were created by German Nazis, because they didn't want to do it in their own country. There is no death camp (it wasn't even possible) associated with the national tensions of the former time. 220.127.116.11 07:39, 9 January 2011 (EST)
Could you just stop wasting our time and move this discussion elsewhere? Wikitravel is a free online travel guide, so please use this space to discuss travel-related items and advice, instead of these historic/political nonsense. I suggest you take this discussion here, and help Wikitravel by adding some good hotels and restaurants in your home city. --globe-trotter 10:55, 9 January 2011 (EST)
You are not interested in explanation. Ok. I stop telling my problem as soon as deframing stops. You publish a historical 'Understand' section so take its content and consumer feedback seriously. Edit: I thought PeterFritzgerald wrote this. My answer to you: congratulations for not comprehending that this is not nonsense, but a proof of the history of a region which you don't even recognize is being argued about whether it is presented well. 18.104.22.168 11:52, 9 January 2011 (EST)
Unexplainable revert by Jc8136. 22.214.171.124 13:55, 9 January 2011 (EST)
As far as I know responsibility of administrators is not that knowing they aren't professional in everything not to let changes go if they don't know if it is valid but to judge others' knowledge and rely on whose they can. Bad faith is assumed contradicting what I read in wikitravel help, Wikitravel:About and Tips for new contributors. 126.96.36.199 14:15, 9 January 2011 (EST)
To the Hungarian anon: Sorry for not imediately replying here but the discussion is already pretty long and seem not to come to a conclusion. I reverted your edits because they didn't added any value for travellers to CE. I have worked in the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Romania and with Hungarians. I'm a bit surprised about your changes concerning language (deviations from German) because this has bee lengthly discussed in the Swiss article and a contradictory position to your was the main consensus. I don't understand why stressing the differences is so important for you. If you would have more pride you would just smile them away. Don't waste our time like others told you. Admins don't know everything when something is wrong we are here to act. Start adding some sensible informations and yes, we start to assume bad faith with you. You are not constructive and don't try to make a positive change. jan 14:59, 9 January 2011 (EST)
The important policy here is Wikitravel:Consensus#Status quo bias. Unless you can convince others that we should have the changes you want, then your edits will be reverted. The edits in question, in my opinion, constituted a significant degradation in writing style and content. The recommendations given come off as extremely condescending to foreigners, to a ridiculous extent (seriously, telling people not to assume that Central Europeans hate individual liberty??). --PeterTalk 21:18, 9 January 2011 (EST)
Answer to jan: no, I do not smile when destructive statements are up on the page and I am not allowed to take them down. The qualification of me not being constructive to the precision of presenting of the region or not trying to make a positive change because it would replace the comfortable 'finished' banner from that part of the article is unacceptable. Only e.g. a British from comfortable seat can feel herself comfortable because that is not a false description about her. And I have a problem not with the content, but that the content multiplies itself. It sets itself the mission of representing something to a third party, from this point it has responsibility not only towards itself because it affects both the tourists and those who live there. Regardless of consensus, whether they are different versions of German or different languages (I meant the former), a person who learnt German will not easily understand these dialects, neither any of them if knows the others. This is only a scientific, fact-point of view. It should be mentioned that they speak German differently. I don't care whether the consensus accepted it as one language, as far as I know it is their pride to call themselves speaking German and define in their Constitution as such, and are only willing to accept they speak different versions of German. The discussion would have been finished if the changes with a constructive willingness were constructively accepted. 188.8.131.52 20:46, 11 January 2011 (EST)
Answer to the paragraph by Peter Fritzgerald: it is useful for those who live here. Probably it has to be rephrased in order to the content be publishable. I experience when people don't know what to expect and that behaviour is 1. a fact. 2. extremely condescending. Regardless of whether they acknowledge that they think that. Moreover from those who have no democratic immune-system. There people think they represent democracy, and have a compliance for being accepted so when the PRC demands taking down a publication they are in doubt before leaving it without modification. Here everyone would immediately say that because of press liberty it cannot be taken down and only writings can argue with it. The American phrase 'do x before we all murder you' while humorous shows exclusive attitude which contradicts democracy. To their defence, this phrase can occur when someone does something clearly out of the conventions of the group he is in.
I use prefect beautiful baroque-like sentences which here shows intelligence, these would be mirror-translations. It is only the English language that I met with that is so primitive that speakers of it only look for subject-verb-object order but if they meet with interjected subclauses referring to each other, they don't understand it, moreover they consider it as inferior in style regardless of whether the relations it shows is superior or done right in one sentence. In my reading they are perfect, only the chunks are constituted of phrases not words, for this reason are less stressed. Usage of more complicated sentences if they have better meaning would make them accepted as language is changed by the people. English in itself is able to grammatically concretely show roles of every part of a complex sentence. The content should be in the section regardless of the phrasing.
The statement about the second world war is false and framing. Real quality problem of wikitravel that should have been replaced long ago.
All of them was significant addition in historical accuration and relevance to expectations from people with marginal knowledge -Eastern Europe-Communism(loud buses without quality or care for environment)-National Idiotism-.
If this contradiction to the facts of a subject, and letting experienced preconceptions grow, that I know well is not solved I know to what extent are the other parts trustworthy. I do no more edits and will only answer here to proposals.184.108.40.206 20:17, 11 January 2011 (EST)
It is truly quite hard to understand your point. After 10 minutes of reading all the above, I'm not sure I understand what your issue is. I can't separate your comments and asides from the actual problems with the article you are raising. I don't know if you are aware, but your English language writing style is very hard to read, as you are obviously not a native speaker. However, try to keep your points simple, reference the article text, and don't get sidetracked into long pieces of writing and hopefully you can get your point across. --inas 21:15, 11 January 2011 (EST)
I am in complete agreement with this edit, but the person who added Bratislava might have a point here. Ljubljana is certainly the most notable city in Slovenia, but Bratislava, the most notable city in Slovakia, is bigger and seems to have more attractions. On the other hand, Bratislava is very close to Vienna, so Ljubljana might be said to give us more geographic diversity. LtPowers 09:35, 29 July 2011 (EDT)
I would say that all capitals, with the exception of Vaduz (since Liechtenstein is the size of a city state), should be listed here. Keeping country capitals in these types of top-level region lists is pretty standard, and there would only be eight necessary. --PeterTalk 16:26, 29 July 2011 (EDT)
Really? This is the first time I've heard of that. I can't imagine switching out Geneva for Bern, for instance. LtPowers 19:55, 29 July 2011 (EDT)
As an aside, I deleted four places from Other destinations which are not articles, and added Białowieża National Park (the most important NP in the region) which was strangely missing.--Burmesedays 21:43, 29 July 2011 (EDT)
Can I join in your discussion? It does seem a bit strange for a 9 country region article to list the main cities of each, except for one. If there wouldn't be an interesting option, that would be fine, but Bratislava is lovely and has lots to see. I agree that it should be the most notable city (for travelers) rather than the capital, and I would definitely keep Geneva instead of Bern. Listing Munich as the second city of Germany is quite a fierce statement. It's a magnificent place in many ways, but Germany has several of those. Perhaps we should just replace Munich with Bratislava? Making it 10 wouldn't bother me either, but leaving Slovakia out, as the one exception, just doesn't seem right. Justme 04:58, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
The rule is a max of 9, so we should stick to that. Given that this region consists of 8 countries and 1 ministate, I think every country ought to be given 1 city except for Liechtenstein. Then the only problem is: which country gets 2 cities? I think Poland makes a good case, as both Krakow and Warsaw are very important ones. I don't agree that the capitals should always be listed though. I think Geneva is a more important city to travel to than Bern. --globe-trotter 09:26, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
I'm not sure I'm a fan of dropping Krakow for either Ljubljana or Bratislava. LtPowers 16:03, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
I'd drop either Krakow or Munich to follow Burmesedays and Globe-trotter's basic metric. Yes Ljubljana is not a major tourist destination (Bratislava most certainly is , and rightly so), but I think it should be there for purposes of regional distribution/representation. Munich is a bigger destination for both tourist and business travel, so I think Krakow should be dropped here. --PeterTalk 17:29, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
I still think dropping Krakow is a mistake, but apparently I was outvoted? LtPowers 21:28, 29 August 2011 (EDT)
We might as well toss a coin, as there is no way to objectively choose between Munich or Krakow. Both are the second most important cities of the two largest countries and both are "huge" cities on Wikitravel. I don't have strong feelings about it, I just picked Munich for the sake of it, taking the above discussion into account. The only neutral way we could maybe get to an agreement is by putting Vaduz up there, though I doubt if this would be an improvement.... --globe-trotter 21:41, 29 August 2011 (EDT)
Agreed. But if we keep Munich in favour of Krakow, at least there is some quantitative logic to fall back on: Germany gets many more visitors than Poland. --burmesedays 22:01, 29 August 2011 (EDT)
Obviously Munich should stay. It's Ljubljana and Bratislava that are questionable. LtPowers 09:38, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
In a region with this number of countries, showing one for each of them with the spare extra space going to the most visited country, seems perfectly logical to me.--burmesedays 10:10, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
We've already apparently agreed that Liechtenstein doesn't get a city listed; why can't we decide the same about Slovenia? Maybe I misread the discussion, but I didn't see a strong consensus for including Ljubljana at the expense of Krakow. LtPowers 12:33, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
Well, at least three users here agree that all the big countries get one city for geographic diversity. Slovenia is as small as Liechtenstein — Liechtenstein is a tiny mountainous state with 35,000 inhabitants, smaller than many municipalities in other countries. Slovenia is a an important European Union country with more than 2 million people and a relatively popular travel destination for the Alps. Omitting Ljubljana would be odd, as almost all visitors to Slovenia would be going there.
If city size would have prevalence over geographic diversity (which has been uncommon on WT), then we'd have to overhaul this list completely and most cities would be German or Polish. --globe-trotter 13:55, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
Well, neither should geographical diversity be the only metric. But my main complaint was that it didn't seem like we'd reached the conclusion that was implemented. I could be misreading the discussion, though, so if everyone's happy with this, then so be it. The map will need updating, though. LtPowers 17:12, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
The map needs updating anyway as it only shows 3 of the Other destinations. Would also be good to get the many road routes on there. I will make a start on inserting some country descriptions in the regionlist table as it looks very neglected. --burmesedays 21:43, 30 August 2011 (EDT)
Well, at the time I made the map, there were only five ODs, and two of them were the North Sea and the Baltic Sea (which are both on there). I continue to be opposed to putting transportation routes on political maps at this scale, so I won't be making that change. LtPowers 13:07, 31 August 2011 (EDT)